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Digital Foundry: Doom Eternal's Ray Tracing Upgrade Analyzed - Best PC Settings + PS5/Xbox Series X Comparisons

Case in point.

Former PS5 principal software engineer



I thought that if one was trying to save memory they would use Sampler Feedback Streaming not VRS. That would keep the GPU from rendering things that are off screen. It looks like the biggest benefit of VRS here is when the game is running at 120 fps. I was under the impression that the resolution between the consoles was different at 120 and that is probably where the benefit rises.
 

CrustyBritches

Gold Member
RT reflections look cool, especially on some of the arenas in Doom Hunter Base. DLSS works great and opens the door for 1440p DLSS/120fps RT mode even on a meager card like my 2060S. Also doing 1080p DLSS/144fps no-RT on a 3060 laptop with 144Hz screen. Pretty wild that something that awesome can come out of a little laptop like that.

I forgot how much I enjoy this game as I haven’t played it much since around launch. This upgrade has me hooked again.
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Oh friend I like how you messed up the lineup of the last two pictures to screw up the comparison.. /s

TOP
XSX Left, Blurry - PS5 Right, LESS Blurry

But for whatever reason, you go 'oops' and at the BOTTOM when Series X should be on the Left to keep the comparison clear you puy it on the RIGHT side....
PS5 Left, LESS Blurry - XSX Right, Still Blurry
What are you taking about? I took a screenshot from the video still on the phone and just cropped about the same area with Photos’ built in tool (iOS) on each image (duplicated the original image twice) to kind of have the same zoom factor.
The fact that some surfaces are rendered at lower resolution (losing also texture detail in the process) is exactly what VRS says it does on the tin. The images appear blurred instead of pixelated because the way I cropped the images on the phone because it must be doing some filtering when upscaling the image (instead of just point sampling) but it does it the same way with both.

This is zooming of an already zoomed in image
(if you want to do it yourself without any interpolation feel free, will not make it look much better if that is what you are worried). Zoom the image yourself you will see the same thing or just you know Console War for the sake of it :p.
 

Md Ray

Member
I thought that if one was trying to save memory they would use Sampler Feedback Streaming not VRS. That would keep the GPU from rendering things that are off screen. It looks like the biggest benefit of VRS here is when the game is running at 120 fps. I was under the impression that the resolution between the consoles was different at 120 and that is probably where the benefit rises.
SFS's purpose is to use only parts of the textures a GPU requires for a scene when it needs as opposed to loading everything, but Matt isn't talking about that in his tweet. He is talking about vertex culling via GE which allows devs to free up compute resources which also happens to free up some memory.
 

Riky

$MSFT
I thought that if one was trying to save memory they would use Sampler Feedback Streaming not VRS. That would keep the GPU from rendering things that are off screen. It looks like the biggest benefit of VRS here is when the game is running at 120 fps. I was under the impression that the resolution between the consoles was different at 120 and that is probably where the benefit rises.

We'll have to wait for the performance metrics but we know already that the Series X runs at a higher resolution in 120fps mode. I've played a while with my LG Menu on and didn't find any drops but that was a small sample size.
Also VRS was unnoticeable whilst playing the game as advertised so if it's giving extra performance then it's worthwhile.
 

longdi

Banned
But what's the point of have a slightly higher resolution if it gets degraded like this. Fair enough if the Ps5 is bouncing between 50- 60fps often and the X is sold 60fps but I doubt it. Or maybe it would be more useful in 120 fps mode.

yeah, but Is the performance paying off for the slight loss in image quality. Is the Xbox comfortably ahead of the ps5 here?

also, why isn’t the ps5 using vrs I wonder? (General question not to you)

I need to watch the video but I’m hung over in bed lol

Yes the video, as Alex said, is more about PC and DLSS.
So VRS/performance wasnt really tested much, if at all.

And even with the impressive DLSS, it still have artifacts and image quality loss

 

Fredrik

Member
DLSS is really impressing me. If I was AMD, I'd try to catch up on the technology because it may become a huge factor going forward.
Yeah, for someone like me who neither have perfect eyesight nor play at 400% zoom it’s like magic, I get much better performance and can’t see any IQ flaws, makes my paltry 3070Ti shine when it really shouldn’t.

It’s a bummer that not all games are using it. Why is this a thing btw? Is it still depending on having ”learned” how each game should look at high res or are devs just not ticking a feature box for some reason?
 

skneogaf

Member
This video proves to be that Nintendo could release a home console only that is more impressive graphics wise than either ps5 or xbox series x as it has access to dlss and other nvidia features not available on amd technologies.
 

Utherellus

Member
2060 can output a better image with DLSS than new consoles. in 1080p.

DLSS the biggest revolutionary piece of software and will be overshadowed only by DLSS 3.0

UNBELIEVEBLY impressive results.

167405312_4289499381106110_1414634433318322935_n.jpg
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
yeah, but to be fair we have been saying for months resolution doesn’t matter but the final image quality should. If the final image quality on a pc with an RTX card at 900p is beating these consoles then that’s even more of a win imo.in performance too.
on static screens, you can see at 10:45 shimering with dlss on and no shimering on consoles
 

Armorian

Banned
This heavily depends on the game. These consoles are way more powerful than the previous two gens at launch. Besides, the 2060 is basically running the game at 900p-1800p whereas consoles are running at 1500p-1800p. we are looking at 2x more resolution.

In other games, like AC odyssey, the PS5 GPU outperforms the 2080. the XSX in Hitman outperforms the 2080. In Control, both consoles are on par with the 2070 Super.

DLSS 2.0 or DLSS 2.2 with DLL are all upscaling techniques and consoles will have their own versions of it. The PS4 Pro was doing checkerboard 4k back in 2016. A technique DF couldnt tell apart from native 4k unless paused and zoomed in. Would you say that the 1080 was beaten by the 4.2 tflops PS4 Pro GPU? Of course not.

The consoles also shipped with fantastic CPUs, top of the line SSDs and some killer I/O which will help with memory management and free up the CPU and GPU. They also cost a fraction of what these GPUs and CPUs are going for in this market. You want the rtx 2060? You are in luck. They are in stock. $500-700.


That's not from ebay or craigslist. The 2080 which is what these consoles are roughly equivalent to is going for a cool $1,000.

I think 2060 Super outperforms console version on any resolution setting (with the same presets)

About Hitman:

DKCf7yW.png
QZg7QmV.png


AC Valhalla is running poor on Nvidia cards so it's a not valid comparison and Control is running reflections on consoles at half the resolution so it's not comparable to PC version at all (you can't set reflections like that).

Checkerboard in many games looked like shit (RDR2) so it's not even close to what DLSS is doing
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Looks like a game very well optimized for PC (Nvidia) hardware, a bit less so for consoles. I don't find anything I'm seeing here very impressive next to R&C.

But yes, DLSS is magic, and it's a shame the consoles don't have any real equivalent.
 
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martino

Member
The GE is orthogonal to VRS and doesn't replace it, since the two features correspond to different stages of the rendering pipeline (vertices vs. pixels).


All this time there were a tweet to remove all secret sauce dream about this original apple to orange comparison
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
Looks good across the board, but I never thought this game looked incredible to begin with.

Playing it again with the RT patch, it adds a nice touch, but it still looks the same if you know what I mean.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
no surprises that 2060 Super is still a beast.
It is bigger than both APU.
It has dedicated bandwidth
It has dedicated power for gpu alone. IIRC ps5/sx uses around 180w, 2060super eats that amount alone.
It has more dedicated gpu trannies.

PCMR :messenger_beaming:
I wonder if one day say Phil Spencer joined Sony under Jim Ryan who went on becoming group CEO… I think you would break :LOL:.
 
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Darius87

Member
no surprises that 2060 Super is still a beast.
It is bigger than both APU.
It has dedicated bandwidth
It has dedicated power for gpu alone. IIRC ps5/sx uses around 180w, 2060super eats that amount alone.
It has more dedicated gpu trannies.

PCMR :messenger_beaming:
there's no advantage in 12nm technology.
 
SFS's purpose is to use only parts of the textures a GPU requires for a scene when it needs as opposed to loading everything, but Matt isn't talking about that in his tweet. He is talking about vertex culling via GE which allows devs to free up compute resources which also happens to free up some memory.
Does Geometry Engine improve performance? That seems to be the main goal of VRS. If it does I wonder what the reason for the resolution differences at 120fps in this title is.
 

Riky

$MSFT
Does Geometry Engine improve performance? That seems to be the main goal of VRS. If it does I wonder what the reason for the resolution differences at 120fps in this title is.

VRS seems to be the easiest of the hardware supported RDNA2 features to use and the one that gives the smallest performance benefits. Once we get SFS, Mesh Shaders and then VRS on what's displayed then we'll really find out how much the hardware support helps.
 
The gamepass games data are inside sort of a protected file. As far as I know, it is not possible to mod it.
Ya they’re protected but some Gamepass games can be modded. I know Skyrim and Oblivion have an option to make some files available to the user.

But Microsoft really need to pull it together and allow users to access their game files in general.
 
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Md Ray

Member
Does Geometry Engine improve performance? That seems to be the main goal of VRS. If it does I wonder what the reason for the resolution differences at 120fps in this title is.
Short answer: Yes, it should.

Long answer: The idea behind GE is to bring handling of triangles, primitives under full programmatical control which presumably wasn't the case before, this means it was not possible to do even basic optimizations like halting the processing of vertices if the geometry were using them off-screen, leading to wasted rendering resources on GPU (and CPU to some degree) which could have been used elsewhere in rendering. Now since this is possible on PS5, devs can use GE for optimization techniques like these and gain more perf, or they can go a step further and use it to improve graphics by using primitive shaders. That said, I don't think Id Software is using GE yet, maybe they will for their next project.

As for the res difference at 120fps mode, I've noticed games generally tend to be more dependant on compute but DOOM Eternal - when rendering at 100+fps - is one of the heaviest hitters of memory bandwidth and scales with BW increase. So the combination of XSX's +25% more BW and VRS being enabled likely shows why there's a 29% res (1584p vs 1800p) gap here in this mode.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think 2060 Super outperforms console version on any resolution setting (with the same presets)

About Hitman:

DKCf7yW.png
QZg7QmV.png


AC Valhalla is running poor on Nvidia cards so it's a not valid comparison and Control is running reflections on consoles at half the resolution so it's not comparable to PC version at all (you can't set reflections like that).

Checkerboard in many games looked like shit (RDR2) so it's not even close to what DLSS is doing
are you sure? those benchmarks dont show the rtx 2060 super (which is roughly 15% more powerful than the 2060) is outperforming the xsx. The 2070 super does beat the xsx so I was wrong there.

vLCfasd.jpg


AC Valhalla performs better on AMD cards yes, but there are plenty of games that do that. Forza Horizon for instance. We cant just dismiss certain comparisons because they dont compare favorably especially when I was trying to point out that performance differs from game to game.

This heavily depends on the game.

RDR2 has the worst implementation of checkerboarding. They use 1920*2160 as the base resolution which is the reason why it looks like shit. they use full vertical resolution (2160p) and 1/4 horizon resolution whereas other better implementations use 1/2 horizontal and half vertical. Richard was asked by cerny to see if he could tell the difference between checkerboarding and native in a days gone comparison and he said he wasnt able to at first glance. he had to go right up close to tell the difference. in their watch dogs comparison, they said 4kcb looks as good as native unless you pause and zoom in.

I think it's ridiculous to dismiss consoles as weak just because of DLSS. Especially when DLSS 2.2 DLL has exposed many of DLSS's shortcomings just the other day. Ghosting, pixelation, jaggies, blurred out detail. In this very game, The RTX 2060 is literally running the game at 900-1080p in Alex's comparisons. The XSX is running at 1800p. PS5 1584p.

The pixel counts comparisons will show the consoles are outperforming it by a 3-4x margin.

900p = 1.4 million pixels
1080p = 2.1 million pixels
1584p ~ 4.1 million pixels
1800p ~ 5.6 million pixels.

How can anyone look at that and call these consoles weak?
 

Armorian

Banned
are you sure? those benchmarks dont show the rtx 2060 super (which is roughly 15% more powerful than the 2060) is outperforming the xsx. The 2070 super does beat the xsx so I was wrong there.



AC Valhalla performs better on AMD cards yes, but there are plenty of games that do that. Forza Horizon for instance. We cant just dismiss certain comparisons because they dont compare favorably especially when I was trying to point out that performance differs from game to game.



RDR2 has the worst implementation of checkerboarding. They use 1920*2160 as the base resolution which is the reason why it looks like shit. they use full vertical resolution (2160p) and 1/4 horizon resolution whereas other better implementations use 1/2 horizontal and half vertical. Richard was asked by cerny to see if he could tell the difference between checkerboarding and native in a days gone comparison and he said he wasnt able to at first glance. he had to go right up close to tell the difference. in their watch dogs comparison, they said 4kcb looks as good as native unless you pause and zoom in.

I think it's ridiculous to dismiss consoles as weak just because of DLSS. Especially when DLSS 2.2 DLL has exposed many of DLSS's shortcomings just the other day. Ghosting, pixelation, jaggies, blurred out detail. In this very game, The RTX 2060 is literally running the game at 900-1080p in Alex's comparisons. The XSX is running at 1800p. PS5 1584p.

The pixel counts comparisons will show the consoles are outperforming it by a 3-4x margin.

900p = 1.4 million pixels
1080p = 2.1 million pixels
1584p ~ 4.1 million pixels
1800p ~ 5.6 million pixels.

How can anyone look at that and call these consoles weak?

He was running this game in 1800p with DLSS P just to show how good DLSS looks not to match console performance.

AC is not even using Nvidia cards in full (95% maximum GPU utilization) so any comparison of console version with Nvidia card is not valid, you can compare it AMD gpus but this Ubi engine is dog shit anyway...
 

amigastar

Member
They should add Dualsense Adaptive Trigger support to the PC version.
Maybe would play the game on Controller then.
 
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Mr Moose

Member
He was running this game in 1800p with DLSS P just to show how good DLSS looks not to match console performance.

AC is not even using Nvidia cards in full (95% maximum GPU utilization) so any comparison of console version with Nvidia card is not valid, you can compare it AMD gpus but this Ubi engine is dog shit anyway...
So using DLSS while the consoles are using native resolutions is fair but comparing Nvidia cards on Valhalla isn't because reasons?
 
So using DLSS while the consoles are using native resolutions is fair but comparing Nvidia cards on Valhalla isn't because reasons?
To be fair there is always some caveat in comparing console to PC.
Also the rules for what matters to compare changes based on who is winning what it seems.
I think it's fair to compare anything that looks similar. So if the dlss looks similar to native you can compare it. If the native looks noticeably better then you can't compare it.
 

Mr Moose

Member
To be fair there is always some caveat in comparing console to PC.
Also the rules for what matters to compare changes based on who is winning what it seems.
I think it's fair to compare anything that looks similar. So if the dlss looks similar to native you can compare it. If the native looks noticeably better then you can't compare it.
It was weird when they did the Valhalla comparisons (consoles use DRS while the PC versions didn't and that was the lowest res in that section they tested) but yeah, DF are the ones making the comparisons.
Some games run better on AMD cards, the consoles use AMD APUs, comparisons in Valhalla should be valid.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Does Geometry Engine improve performance? That seems to be the main goal of VRS. If it does I wonder what the reason for the resolution differences at 120fps in this title is.
PS5 Geometry Engine, from what has been said, improves performance by allowing custom and very high speed culling of geometry thus removing the need to process, rasterise, and ultimately shade them (I think from the available patents it can also help control geometry shading rate).

We do not know how and if Sony customised it beyond base RDNA2 specs, but they have done similar customisations including key components before and this seems like sn area they wanted to focus heavily (they know their GPU is not as wide as their competition, again part of their design not bugged so not outside of some measure of control).
 
It was weird when they did the Valhalla comparisons (consoles use DRS while the PC versions didn't and that was the lowest res in that section they tested) but yeah, DF are the ones making the comparisons.
Some games run better on AMD cards, the consoles use AMD APUs, comparisons in Valhalla should be valid.
They are valid, assuming you include the ones that are not in such a good light. Like wdl and so on.
 

Blond

Banned
Or when you pause a fast moving shooter game and zoom in 400%.

Wonder how many "gamers" could actually tell a difference when playing these games
Hardly any. The reality is “gamers” once again got sold something that’s really only beneficial to developers as something that’s better for their games.

I’m fully ready for someone to reply to me and say it’s some innovation they’ve waited year’s for like they always do.
 

Mister Wolf

Gold Member
AMD is never gonna catch up to Nvidia. DLSS is black magic.

Nvidia were really ahead of their time when they dropped all of this stuff in 2018. Imagine if Sony and Microsoft weren't cheap and partnered with Nvidia instead. The other reconstruction techniques are only considered good when not compared to DLSS. Its like me saying I am good at basketball if you don't include NBA or Collegiate players.
 

Blond

Banned
Nvidia were really ahead of their time when they dropped all of this stuff in 2018. Imagine if Sony and Microsoft weren't cheap and partnered with Nvidia instead. The other reconstruction techniques are only considered good when not compared to DLSS. Its like me saying I am good at basketball if you don't include NBA or Collegiate players.
Nvidia boned Microsoft and then boned Sony. It’s not about being cheap but more about how Nvidia handled their respective partnerships in the past.
 
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