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The ~60% figure is the lowest improvement observed across all studies, even in countries like Israel where there is evidence of the vaccine effectiveness waning. The study you were referring to actually showed that the Pfizer vaccine was 88% effective in preventing symptomatic infection with the Delta variant (see table 2), compared to 93.7% effectiveness against Alpha. (It's reasonable to expect a follow up study would show some drop off, in line with Israel's experience).
So since the study specifically tested for each variant, and measured the effectiveness of the vaccine only against that variant, the fact that Delta made up only 22.4% of the cases doesn't matter. As only Delta cases were considered when assessing the effectiveness of the vaccine against Delta!
There is widespread evidence that the vaccines prevent symptomatic infection of Delta. See table Table 1a of the below article for a summary of the studies conducted so far.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html
Well, in the NEJM study, they "compared vaccination status in persons with symptomatic Covid-19 with vaccination status in persons who reported symptoms but had a negative test". If the vaccines didn't stop infection, then we would expect to see similar vaccination levels in both groups. But in fact the study saw lower vaccination incidence in the COVID positive group, indicating that the vaccines were stopping people from getting infected.
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what a joke .
chromhound
Member
who got some popcorn? . getting ready to read these posts lol
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
As the parent of a kid with Autism that woman's article was interesting. We still have a pretty crappy understanding of autism, hell my son would have had Asperger's up until a couple of years ago when they removed Asperger's as a diagnosis and moved it into the Autism spectrum. So even now causes and treatment options are varied and controversial.
COVID is very different - we have gone from 'hmm the Chinese seem to be having some kind of problem, sucks to be them' to highly effective vaccines for a global pandemic in the space of a year and a half. Of course there were going to be mistakes along the way we are no doubt still making them, but where we have solid data we can at least make some solid decisions. Autism remains a black box even now.
COVID is very different - we have gone from 'hmm the Chinese seem to be having some kind of problem, sucks to be them' to highly effective vaccines for a global pandemic in the space of a year and a half. Of course there were going to be mistakes along the way we are no doubt still making them, but where we have solid data we can at least make some solid decisions. Autism remains a black box even now.
ManaByte
Gold Member
Merck agrees to let other drug makers make its COVID pill
Pharmaceutical company Merck agreed to allow other drug makers to produce its COVID-19 pill, in a move aimed at helping millions of people in poorer countries get access to the potentially life-sav…
ktla.com
ManaByte
Gold Member
Imagine twisting the end of the pandemic (it becoming endemic) into something anti-vax. These people need to be committed.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Adults sitting in a 3.5hrs Zoom meeting = majority of them don't have a job or are really bad at it / cannot be fired no matter what they do. I take offense to the first guy being from Paris, people here work a fucking lot.
News from France: cases have gone up a little bit due to loosening of restrictions and people staying more indoors because of cold weather. Vaccination pass has been extended till June 2022, but not the Senate - controlled by the opposition - requires the government to come back for a mid-term evaluation in Feb 2022 to justify keeping restrictions in place.
Me, fully vaccinated since June 2021:
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Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
American flight diverted after passenger assaults attendant, airline says — NBC News
American Airlines said a flight attendant was physically assaulted Wednesday by a passenger during a flight from New York to California.
apple.news
PrimetimeKnight
Member
Just like I've pretty much said since the beginning to friends, family and a couple times on here.....NOPE it's never gonna be over.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
QSD
Member
Haven't watched yet as I had to go to work. Intro seemed very earnest and civilized so I'm not particularly hopeful that there will be unmitigated bloodsports or Yuri calling them all suka blyats. I'll give him credit for going up against a whole legion of Kirsch's followers though, hardly seems a fair set up as it is.
he posted the following on twitter (click to see the thread)
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Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Let’s debate just you and me.
And many other people who support my position.
And many other people who support my position.
QSD
Member
yeah kinda says it all about the confidence they have in their own arguments
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
people that think you can fight toxicity with more toxicity is confusing...how you think we got here in the first place ???
QSD
Member
Obviously I agree that this isn't going to make things better, but then a lot of this thread has been just that: trying to fight toxicity with more toxicity. We're only ever going to learn something from this whole debacle when we honestly start asking how it is so many people have basically given up trust in government and the medical establishment, and how we can re-establish at least some semblance of trust so we won't face the same level of division whenever the next disaster rears its ugly head and we need some kind of collective action.
SpiceRacz
Member
MisterFalcon
Member
Not all, just a large majority. It's a good filter, getting rid of cops who don't care about protecting the public, soldiers who don't want to take orders and health care workers who don't believe in medical science.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Honestly we need people to question more not less. The problem isn't people not trusting the government or the medical establishment or the news or the election process. The problem is people trusting other stuff be it actually intelligent but fringe personalities through to people on Tik Tok sticking spoons to their arm.
QSD
Member
Don't you think that the trusting of "fringe personalities" (be it Rogan, Weinstein, or whatever spoon people there are on tik tok) is the consequence of the loss of trust in "the establishment"? IMHO people gravitate toward trusting *someone* so they will actively look for candidates if the people on TV no longer suffice. I've often thought that the new wave of "public intellectuals" on youtube have the same function as politicians used to, albeit that these people would never venture into actual politics because it is too toxic.
I do understand that holding a fringe/renegade sort of position comes with its own type of glamour, but that goes more for stuff like UFO's or the Kennedy assassination. I do believe people would like to trust their doctors when it comes to medical issues. That they do not is something that really requires reckoning with.
12Goblins
Lil’ Gobbie
Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home
Vaccinated people are catching and then spreading the virus to those they live with, UK study finds.
www.bbc.com
Even if they have no or few symptoms, the chance of them transmitting the virus to other unvaccinated housemates is about two in five, or 38%.
Catphish
Member
So just today, literally today, I finally recovered from Covid. Today was two weeks to the day of my first onset of symptoms, and today was the very first day since then where I did not have a fever at some point during the day. 14 fucking days of fever. And that's just the start.
I'm so fucking happy right now I could cry. These have been the worst two fucking weeks of my life. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. Absolutely fucking tortuous throughout; dark, lonely, and brutally, fucking relentlessly soul-rending.
The crushing body aches, piercing headaches, endless chills, confusion, nightmarish fever dreams, waking up cold and saturated, lethargy, coughing, loss of smell, loss of taste, (loss of my sense of fucking self!) and just the raw fucking unending sickness of it all.
FUCKING MERCILESS.
I was not vaccinated, though I was considering it. And I'll say this much: if I could have truly known what this ride would be like for me, I would have gotten the vaccination day fucking 1. Now I'll have to wait 90 days, but I'll be there on Feb.1. And at least I've earned some fucking antibodies for the interim. A bit of consolation prize, I guess.
I don't EVER want to go through these last two weeks EVER. AGAIN. And I sincerely hope none of you experience this bullshit.
My advice to anyone not vaccinated: Get vaccinated. This shit is no fucking joke.
I'm so fucking happy right now I could cry. These have been the worst two fucking weeks of my life. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. Absolutely fucking tortuous throughout; dark, lonely, and brutally, fucking relentlessly soul-rending.
The crushing body aches, piercing headaches, endless chills, confusion, nightmarish fever dreams, waking up cold and saturated, lethargy, coughing, loss of smell, loss of taste, (loss of my sense of fucking self!) and just the raw fucking unending sickness of it all.
FUCKING MERCILESS.
I was not vaccinated, though I was considering it. And I'll say this much: if I could have truly known what this ride would be like for me, I would have gotten the vaccination day fucking 1. Now I'll have to wait 90 days, but I'll be there on Feb.1. And at least I've earned some fucking antibodies for the interim. A bit of consolation prize, I guess.
I don't EVER want to go through these last two weeks EVER. AGAIN. And I sincerely hope none of you experience this bullshit.
My advice to anyone not vaccinated: Get vaccinated. This shit is no fucking joke.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I'm glad you're feeling better. I hope more people hear your story and get convinced to vaccinate themselves.So just today, literally today, I finally recovered from Covid. Today was two weeks to the day of my first onset of symptoms, and today was the very first day since then where I did not have a fever at some point during the day. 14 fucking days of fever. And that's just the start.
I'm so fucking happy right now I could cry. These have been the worst two fucking weeks of my life. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. Absolutely fucking tortuous throughout; dark, lonely, and brutally, fucking relentlessly soul-rending.
The crushing body aches, piercing headaches, endless chills, confusion, nightmarish fever dreams, waking up cold and saturated, lethargy, coughing, loss of smell, loss of taste, (loss of my sense of fucking self!) and just the raw fucking unending sickness of it all.
FUCKING MERCILESS.
I was not vaccinated, though I was considering it. And I'll say this much: if I could have truly known what this ride would be like for me, I would have gotten the vaccination day fucking 1. Now I'll have to wait 90 days, but I'll be there on Feb.1. And at least I've earned some fucking antibodies for the interim. A bit of consolation prize, I guess.
I don't EVER want to go through these last two weeks EVER. AGAIN. And I sincerely hope none of you experience this bullshit.
My advice to anyone not vaccinated: Get vaccinated. This shit is no fucking joke.
TheFarter
Banned
That's what I figured.
If you need to subject yourself to a potentially fatal disease to get "protection", it kind of defeats the point in the first place.
MisterFalcon
Member
We can be 100% sure that everyone who died rather then get natural immunity can never get sick again. Take that, vaccine !
FunkMiller
Gold Member
So just today, literally today, I finally recovered from Covid. Today was two weeks to the day of my first onset of symptoms, and today was the very first day since then where I did not have a fever at some point during the day. 14 fucking days of fever. And that's just the start.
I'm so fucking happy right now I could cry. These have been the worst two fucking weeks of my life. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. Absolutely fucking tortuous throughout; dark, lonely, and brutally, fucking relentlessly soul-rending.
The crushing body aches, piercing headaches, endless chills, confusion, nightmarish fever dreams, waking up cold and saturated, lethargy, coughing, loss of smell, loss of taste, (loss of my sense of fucking self!) and just the raw fucking unending sickness of it all.
FUCKING MERCILESS.
I was not vaccinated, though I was considering it. And I'll say this much: if I could have truly known what this ride would be like for me, I would have gotten the vaccination day fucking 1. Now I'll have to wait 90 days, but I'll be there on Feb.1. And at least I've earned some fucking antibodies for the interim. A bit of consolation prize, I guess.
I don't EVER want to go through these last two weeks EVER. AGAIN. And I sincerely hope none of you experience this bullshit.
My advice to anyone not vaccinated: Get vaccinated. This shit is no fucking joke.
Glad you’re getting over it. Sounds like you‘ve been lucky (although I’m sure it doesn’t feel like it). Can I ask why you didn’t get vaccinated?
Cyberpunkd
Member
Sure you were. 100%, pinky swear. I guess 'educating yourself' just took a little bit extra time. When were you able to receive the vaccine in your country?
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QSD
Member
Man it sounds like you had a real rough time. Good to hear you've gotten better. I was wondering the same thing as Funkmiller really, what made you hesitate to get vaccinated? Do you have a lot of friends/family that are also opposed?So just today, literally today, I finally recovered from Covid. Today was two weeks to the day of my first onset of symptoms, and today was the very first day since then where I did not have a fever at some point during the day. 14 fucking days of fever. And that's just the start.
I'm so fucking happy right now I could cry. These have been the worst two fucking weeks of my life. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. Absolutely fucking tortuous throughout; dark, lonely, and brutally, fucking relentlessly soul-rending.
The crushing body aches, piercing headaches, endless chills, confusion, nightmarish fever dreams, waking up cold and saturated, lethargy, coughing, loss of smell, loss of taste, (loss of my sense of fucking self!) and just the raw fucking unending sickness of it all.
FUCKING MERCILESS.
I was not vaccinated, though I was considering it. And I'll say this much: if I could have truly known what this ride would be like for me, I would have gotten the vaccination day fucking 1. Now I'll have to wait 90 days, but I'll be there on Feb.1. And at least I've earned some fucking antibodies for the interim. A bit of consolation prize, I guess.
I don't EVER want to go through these last two weeks EVER. AGAIN. And I sincerely hope none of you experience this bullshit.
My advice to anyone not vaccinated: Get vaccinated. This shit is no fucking joke.
Catphish
Member
It was several reasons. Primarily because the information coming out about the vaccines was so inconsistent. It works for this long, no it doesn't, it protects from this, no it doesn't, this manufacturer's this, that one's that, etc. Then the fact of how quickly it was brought to market. I found the rapid push to FDA approval fishy. Still kind of do, if I'm being honest. Then personal stories from people I know. My ex got it, and it screwed with her in ways I'm not going to get into, but suffice to say it still affects the 'female' aspects of her body, and it's been months. My cousin, fully vaccinated, yet him and his 3 fully-vaccinated friends all caught it and were forced to quarantine for two weeks. Which makes me feel like, well, why bother?
So, lots of factors. However, I was leaning toward getting it eventually, I was just waiting for the water to clear a bit. But, in the end, now, it's all moot. Come February, I will be getting vaccinated. Experience is a hell of a teacher.
Punished Miku
Member
Glad you've recovered. I think what paralyzes a lot of people is the "perfect being the enemy of the good," if you know that saying. Is it 100% protection? No. Is it 100% risk free from side effects? No.
The correct way to look at it is to just do a list wars comparison of the pros and cons of the vaccine vs. COVID, because you will get one or the other. No one will get neither. Whether your concern is blood clots, myocarditis, or whatever, I think virtually every one of the possible downsides has far more severe risk with COVID. Don't know the long term effects of vaccine? Well we don't know the long term effects of COVID or long-COVID either.
Anyway, maybe that mindset will help others around you weigh their options. Being passive means you're choosing COVID. You will get one or the other.
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QSD
Member
I can understand most of the points you mentioned. I had a kind of similar experience in that when I was vaxxed in April, the day after I got my first jab, the government scrapped the vax I got (Astra Zeneca) because of the blood clotting issue. So there sure was a lot of mixed messaging. Either way it's good that you've told your story here. IMHO if there's anything that's going to convince the hesitant it's stories like yours.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
This must be an American thing. At no stage in the UK were we ever under the illusion that the vaccine was 100% effective, or that it stopped you getting covid. It has always been understood that the vaccine is there to reduce significantly the chances of getting a bad or even fatal dose of it, and to lower the chances of transmitting it to others. Vaccines aren't, and never have been a cure. Is that something you understood beforehand?
Why did you find the FDA approval fishy? The vaccine was given emergency authorisation across the world, after rigorous testing. Did it not occur that it wasn't just the American agencies approving it for use? Or do you find a global emergency approval fishy?
Not meaning to wail on you dude. It takes a lot to admit a mistake, and you've got my admiration for that. I'm just so curious to understand where people are getting their dislike of the vaccines from.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
QSD
Member
Although I agree with your that the scrapping of the AZ vaccine in my country was probably an overreaction, I'm not sure that accusations of "lies!" when there were actual issues with blood clotting in some patients is useful (unless you are referring to something else). The general tendency of everyone in this debate to assume bad faith in the other parties isn't going to help us in the end.
I think this is probably just nuance getting lost in the mass communication effort
I do wonder how hard it is to understand that if it normally takes years to develop and get approval for a medication, it will seem less safe to take medications that have been created and approved within 6 months. The "rigorous testing" is something that you will have to take the word for from these pharma companies. If you don't trust them, you are unlikely to do that.
funkygunther
Banned
Catphish
Member
FDA approval here for drugs, on average, is about a decade. There are variations on this, of course, but that's the roundabout average. So for something to get approval that quickly (less than a year?), well, I'd say that's obviously going to raise some questions. Also, taking new drugs in general is always a gamble here. When you see a commercial for any kind of drug, it ends with a 20-second litany of potential side-effects, some considerably worse than the illness the drug is intended to treat. And this is for drugs that went through the standard, decade-long trial period.
Honestly, I didn't know much about the global involvement, and ultimately, even if I did, I don't know how much it would have mattered. There is just so much chaos, informational and otherwise, around this goddamned disease, that I don't know who to trust or what to believe. I'm a skeptic by nature, and neither our government nor the global pharmaceutical industry is exactly trusted to hold the well-being of people in their highest regard, if you know what I'm saying.
So, I felt very much paralyzed by uncertainty. I wanted to get vaccinated, but the trust just wasn't there. It's not a dislike of vaccines, not at all. For me, it's trying to find the voice of truth amongst the cacophony, when so many of the component voices, especially those of the media, are powered by ulterior motive.
QSD
Member
I'm talking about Joe Public, I'm trying to point out that you need a certain level of trust, which is something that Funkmiller just assumes as a given (and he seems to think it's a personal failure if people don't have it, I disagree)
Vicetrailia
Member
Well you waited, watched, and got burned. But you live.
I have some friends who got covid bad like you did and are still anti-vaccine, I just hope that they protect themselves after their antibodies wane early next year.
Me? I got vaccinated in April and kept it moving. I'll get my booster and keep it moving. It's not a big deal.
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QSD
Member
Why are you talking to me? I was already vaccinated in april, like I said two posts ago. Either way, it's cool that you don't feel any problem with trust. There's a *lot* of people who do, and I can emphathize.