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[MikeM]

Anything that can be asserted without evidence...

I understand but I disagree on a least one account.

1. Pricing people out of luxury toys is not unethical even if you do it the most cutthroat way possible (which scalpers arguably do, as you aptly described). I don't care if poor people don't have access to a cutting edge console or an RTX. Poor people are priced out of virtually all luxury products and services and that's fine. Nobody needs a PS5.
2. You're probably correct that MS and Sony don't raise the prices for brand perception reasons, yes. In a perfect market with no friction they should and would increase it. Scalpers are less concerned about their clout and bite the bullet for the profits. If MS and Sony increased the prices to their actual market value, you would be able to walk into a store and just grab a PS5 or Xbox and cut out the potentially shady middleman.

Artificially inflating the price of a scarce item is predatory, whether it be a ps5 or anything else. I’d even argue that, given all the lockdowns, that they are less a luxury item and more so to help mentally cope with the COVID situation. I know I can say they have helped make lockdowns far more enjoyable than not having them.
All scalpers are doing is demonstrating that some consumers will foot the higher bill to pay for the same product, thereby causing companies to reevaluate their pricing and adjust accordingly. Effectively, scalpers are threatening the value that GPUs and consoles provide (or used to) which consumers (and governments) should be looking at making illegal.

 

[Winter John]

The thing about those asshole scalpers is their greed makes them real easy targets. Fake offers, fake meet ups, fake bids. A lot of fun can be had with almost no effort

 

[Gameplaylover]

Not talking about bots, just some update scanner browser addons that saves you F5 spamming and watching the monitor. You can read a book, work or whatever and get an alert.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Artificially inflating the price of a scarce item is predatory, whether it be a ps5 or anything else. I’d even argue that, given all the lockdowns, that they are less a luxury item and more so to help mentally cope with the COVID situation. I know I can say they have helped make lockdowns far more enjoyable than not having them.
All scalpers are doing is demonstrating that some consumers will foot the higher bill to pay for the same product, thereby causing companies to reevaluate their pricing and adjust accordingly. Effectively, scalpers are threatening the value that GPUs and consoles provide (or used to) which consumers (and governments) should be looking at making illegal.

I would argue that the MSRP is artifically deflated and the scalpers reveal the customers' true willingness to pay, which indeed is much higher than the MSRP, given the currently constrained supply at least. You're also correct that the manufacturers might reconsider their pricing strategies based on the data they've received for the past 2 years or so. I would even agree that having some sort of gaming entertainment during the 2020 lockdowns was really good - but surely you can have that without a PS5 or an RTX 3080? Why not buy resort to cheaper alternatives? Nobody is scalping PS4s because they are priced correctly.

 

[Boss Mog]

They provide a solution to a problem they're actively creating. They sure are good guys these scalpers...

 

[Roxkis_ii]

I'm not a fan of scalpers, but I can understand them. If you have the ability to get stuff other people can't, then you get to make a profit.

At the end of the day, we (in general) make the choice to spend the extra money to get something at that time.

A good example are ps5`s. If you really wanted one last year, and you didn't have a bot, you would have likely had to paid a scalper. But if you waited until this year, you would be able to get one pretty easily.

At the end of the day, if the product you want isn't having a limited one time release, you can get what you want with some patience.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

They provide a solution to a problem they're actively creating. They sure are good guys these scalpers...

I mean we can test whether you actually believe this to be true. Let's for a second assume that all scalpers were eliminated. Do you think the current supply of RTX 3080s and PS5s meets the demand (if we assume they're offered at MSRP)? Or do you think there are more people eager to pay MSRP for these products than there is supply?

 

[MikeM]

I would argue that the MSRP is artifically deflated and the scalpers reveal the customers' true willingness to pay, which indeed is much higher than the MSRP, given the currently constrained supply at least. You're also correct that the manufacturers might reconsider their pricing strategies based on the data they've received for the past 2 years or so. I would even agree that having some sort of gaming entertainment during the 2020 lockdowns was really good - but surely you can have that without a PS5 or an RTX 3080? Why not buy resort to cheaper alternatives? Nobody is scalping PS4s because they are priced correctly.

Argue whatever you want. Scalpers are causing artificial inflation on products that may cause permanent damage to any perceived value in whatever scarce product is being scalped.
Regarding having fun without RTX 3080 and PS5- I can’t get a PS4 new on Best Buy Canada. So thats out.
Rtx 3080? Shit- the prices of a 6600xt in Canada have escalated to about 1.5x the cost of the Series X.

You can try to make whatever argument you want, but ultimately scalpers are profiting from a bad situation which just goes to show that the human race loves to exploit bad situations for personal gain. Scalpers are pieces of shit and no argument you make will make me think otherwise.

 

[assurdum]

I mean we can test whether you actually believe this to be true. Let's for a second assume that all scalpers were eliminated. Do you think the current supply of RTX 3080s and PS5s meets the demand (if we assume they're offered at MSRP)? Or do you think there are more people eager to pay MSRP for these products than there is supply?

In what way contribute to the supply issue reselling at the double of the price such products to the richer people could be appreciable and provide value? Richer people already have economical advantage, why give them alternative market unaccessible for the others? For the fuck sake, no.

 

[Gameplaylover]

You can try to make whatever argument you want, but ultimately scalpers are profiting from a bad situation which just goes to show that the human race loves to exploit bad situations for personal gain. Scalpers are pieces of shit and no argument you make will make me think otherwise.

It's the fault of the rich and impatient people. There wouldn't be scalpers if people wouldn't try to cheat with money.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Of course scalpers don't cause the shortages.
But they strongly profit from them, a kind of "natural" parasite if you will.

Ethical or not doesn't really matter, it is what it is - and it won't change unless the shortage itself changes.

 

[KillaJamm]

Da fuck I just read

 

[Imp the Dimp]

You can try to make whatever argument you want, but ultimately scalpers are profiting from a bad situation which just goes to show that the human race loves to exploit bad situations for personal gain. Scalpers are pieces of shit and no argument you make will make me think otherwise.

This isn't a good mindset to have, not sure what to tell you. You should absolutely be open to hearing positions other than your own.

In what way contribute to the supply issue reselling at the double of the price such products to the richer people could be appreciable and provide value? Richer people already have economical advantage, why give them alternative market unaccessible for the others? For the fuck sake, no.

You don't have to be "rich" to buy an RTX 3080. Odds are, if you're complaining about it on Reddit or super hardcore video game community online, you're probably the target audience for scalpers. Let's not kid ourselves about what audience these places attract. Middle class men in their 20s and 30s. Secondly, I think phrasing it as "appreciable" is a bit more loaded than what I'm willing to accept. I consider pricing poor people out of cutting edge technology morally neural. I just don't care and I really, really doubt any of you guys care either. You wanna play videogames so bad? I'm sure you'll find a PS4. You're not entitled to the latest shit. Middle class and wealthy people have access to better food, clothing, technology, cars, etc. than poor people. That's ok. Poor people should receive all the same opportunities as middle class and wealthy people to improve their situation but price controlling video game consoles when affordable alternatives are readily available? Come on.

 

[assurdum]

This isn't a good mindset to have, not sure what to tell you. You should absolutely be open to hearing positions other than your own.

Neither your is a good mindset. Money shouldn't give other advantages that already give. Practically you find even appreciable that someone deprives the others of a market product just to give it away to the richer people. The hell is that shit.

 

[theclaw135]

I would argue that the MSRP is artifically deflated and the scalpers reveal the customers' true willingness to pay, which indeed is much higher than the MSRP, given the currently constrained supply at least. You're also correct that the manufacturers might reconsider their pricing strategies based on the data they've received for the past 2 years or so. I would even agree that having some sort of gaming entertainment during the 2020 lockdowns was really good - but surely you can have that without a PS5 or an RTX 3080? Why not buy resort to cheaper alternatives? Nobody is scalping PS4s because they are priced correctly.

A hot take I mentioned earlier, the MSRP for these items is a sham. The manufacturers can't feign ignorance of how much scalpers are profiting.

 

[MikeM]

This isn't a good mindset to have, not sure what to tell you. You should absolutely be open to hearing positions other than your own.

I’m always open. Doesn’t mean anything you say will change things. Again, a scalper’s sole reason to exist is to artificially inflate the cost of a scarce product for personal gain. I don’t see anything positive in that.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I’m always open. Doesn’t mean anything you say will change things. Again, a scalper’s sole reason to exist is to artificially inflate the cost of a scarce product for personal gain. I don’t see anything positive in that.

If I don't want to F5 Amazon at launch day and if I can't be bothered to check Twitter bots for in-stock notifications, then scalpers provide value. What is there not to understand? It's not even debatable. You just don't value their service and that's fine.

 

[Draugoth]

 

[brian0057]

I’m always open. Doesn’t mean anything you say will change things. Again, a scalper’s sole reason to exist is to artificially inflate the cost of a scarce product for personal gain. I don’t see anything positive in that.

Don't make me post the video again.

 

[assurdum]

This isn't a good mindset to have, not sure what to tell you. You should absolutely be open to hearing positions other than your own.

You don't have to be "rich" to buy an RTX 3080. Odds are, if you're complaining about it on Reddit or super hardcore video game community online, you're probably the target audience for scalpers. Let's not kid ourselves about what audience these places attract. Middle class men in their 20s and 30s. Secondly, I think phrasing it as "appreciable" is a bit more loaded than what I'm willing to accept. I consider pricing poor people out of cutting edge technology morally neural. I just don't care and I really, really doubt any of you guys care either. You wanna play videogames so bad? I'm sure you'll find a PS4. You're not entitled to the latest shit. Middle class and wealthy people have access to better food, clothing, technology, cars, etc. than poor people. That's ok. Poor people should receive all the same opportunities as middle class and wealthy people to improve their situation but price controlling video game consoles when affordable alternatives are readily available? Come on.

So because you don't care, people who reselling product at higher price provide a value? Are you fucking serious? It's not provide alternative, it's almost extortion.

 

[brian0057]

So because you don't care, people who reselling product at higher price provide a value? Are you fucking serious?

Unironically, yes.

 

[assurdum]

Unironically, yes.

Some mindset are really worrying.

 

[TintoConCasera]

So because you don't care, people who reselling product at higher price provide a value? Are you fucking serious?

If he's willing to pay more and doesn't care, then it's obvious they are providing value for him, as otherwise he would have no way of getting the product he wants.

It's not cool I know, but it is how it is and you can't blame either him or the scalper.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

So because you don't care, people who reselling product at higher price provide a value? Are you fucking serious?

Yes. Obviously my conclusions follow my premises.

1) Market economies are good
2) Pricing poor people out of luxury items when alternatives are readily available is morally neutral

Therefore scalping is morally neutral. Do you understand that you have to make a compelling case for why something IS immoral? Why would I just accept your position as the default?

 

[ACESHIGH]

Just.... Shut up mate

 

[TheDreadLord]

I partially agree with OP when it comes to it being an offer/demand issue. However, many scalper make use of bots which is against many online store policies (not that they seem to care though).

 

[assurdum]

Yes. Obviously my conclusions follow my premises.

1) Market economies are good
2) Pricing poor people out of luxury items when alternatives are readily available is morally neutral

Therefore scalping is morally neutral. Do you understand that you have to make a compelling case for why something IS immoral? Why would I just accept your position as the default?

Dude if you find appreciable to deprive people of a market product at the normal price to resell it at higher price, there is really something wrong in your mindset. In my opinion shouldn't be even legal.

 

[brian0057]

Some mindset are really worrying.

Yeah, well. When you watch products disappear and people die from lack of food and medicine, you kinda soften up on the whole "price gouging" situation.

 

[DarkestHour]

Don't think I've ever seen anything this stupid posted on the internet before.

 

[TheDreadLord]

Dude if you find appreciable to deprive people of a market product at the normal price to resell it at higher price, there is really something wrong in your mindset. In my opinion shouldn't be legal.

It is not deprive someone of market products. The point is that the scalper issue shows that the consumer is willing to pay more for the consoles. Therefore, it is a demand/offer issue. If Sony and MS offered more consoles that they offer now, then there wouldn’t be any scalper situation going on. In my case, I missed the launch windows and just managed to get a PS5 last week. I waited a whole year and have paid MSRP.

 

[assurdum]

Yeah, well. When you watch products disappear and people die from lack of food and medicine, you kinda soften up on the whole "price gouging" situation.

I don't think it justify at all some weird opinions.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Dude if you find appreciable to deprive people of a market product at the normal price to resell it at higher price, there is really something wrong in your mindset. In my opinion shouldn't be even legal.

The scalper sold it to someone who's willing to pay more. That doesn't necessarily mean that person wanted it more (they might just be very wealthy and not particularly price sensitive) but the products sold remains the same, except the scalper discriminates by price and not by sheer luck.

 

[assurdum]

It is not deprive someone of market products. The point is that the scalper issue shows that the consumer is willing to pay more for the consoles. Therefore, it is a demand/offer issue. If Sony and MS offered more co soles that hey offer now, then there wouldn’t be any scalper.

It is. You deprive the market of a product to a normal price. Just because economy is based on capitalism, not means whatever should be based to this principle.

 

[ethomaz]

Scalpers are a results of offer vs demand.
That in economy direct affect the price.
offer > demand = lower prices.
demand > offer = higher prices.

Yeap you are correct.

 

[ethomaz]

It is. You deprive the market of a product to a normal price. Just because economy is based on capitalism, not means whatever should be based to this principle.

I mean consoles are a capitalism product... there is no way to get out of that.
The price is still based in offer vs demand.

 

[TheDreadLord]

It is. You deprive the market of a product to a normal price. Just because economy is based on capitalism, not means whatever should be based to this principle.

And which principle should it be based on? You realize that we are talking about a videogame console, a luxury item, right? A PS5 is not required for you to live. Also, if we apply the logic you are implying here then there wouldn’t be any incentive for companies to innovate or compete.

 

[chixdiggit]

Scalpers providing value.

Yes, they are the true heroes of this world.
Thank you Scalpers, what would we do without you?

 

[DaGwaphics]

Like they say everyone has an opinion and their is someone out there that will support literally anything.

Thread = example of both.

 

[ethomaz]

I partially agree with OP when it comes to it being an offer/demand issue. However, many scalper make use of bots which is against many online store policies (not that they seem to care though).

Yes but that is an online store issue, no?
They need to create mechanics to avoid that but they really care? They are selling the product after all.
Scalpers doesn't affect the online store or Sony at all... it doesn't affect the market.

 

[Punished Miku]

OP's next thread:

Rapture was a nice place to live before housing prices crashed

 

[M1chl]

 

[M4vericko]

This thread

 

[Trimesh]

I'm amazed that anyone fell for obvious bait like this.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I mean consoles are a capitalism product... there is no way to get out of that.

I will say I'm irritated by places that don't exactly identify as left like NeoGAF or r/pcgaming going all anti-capitalist lately. It feels like everyone has lost their mind. Like damn, have some convictions. Market economies provide better outcomes than anything else we've tried. Gaming has thrived under capitalism and it's as consumerist a hobby as they come. There's no good reason for you to have a Steam backlog with 300 games you know you'll never play. We're on a hardcore gaming board, we're all capitalist, it's OK.

 

[95mellow]

I'm so tired of gaming.

 

[Cornbread78]

Gross.....

 

[brian0057]

This entire thread summarized:

 

[Methos#1975]

Personally, I wanted a PS5, couldn't find one at any retailer online and instead of wasting my time trying to get one by lucking out and following Twitter feeds for weeks just went on eBay and clicked now and a day later I was playing Demon Souls. Did I pay about $300 more than its retail price, sure, but that was a acceptable term to wasting hours of my life.

 

[Lucifers Beard]

Get the fuck outta here with that shit. It’s clear that there are surplus consoles out there with scalpers because you see the outrageous price they are charging them online.

The whole business model is to undercharge for consoles to get people buying more games so your whole argument is shot down right there. Console makers wouldn’t ever charge what they are ‘worth’.

Scalping of any kind is horseshit.

Anyway, I’ve got more important things to do like stare at walls than read this madness.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Get the fuck outta here with that shit. It’s clear that there are surplus consoles out there with scalpers because you see the outrageous price they are charging them online.

The whole business model is to undercharge for consoles to get people buying more games so your whole argument is shot down right there. Console makers wouldn’t ever charge what they are ‘worth’.

Scalping of any kind is horseshit.

Anyway, I’ve got more important things to do like stare at walls than read this madness.

Do you think I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with my private property including selling it?