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[Denjo92]

If a zombie apocalypse breakes out, there will be people who defend the rights of zombies.

 

[nush]

Scalpers take advantage of others hardship for their own gain. Sorry but they are scum.

Hardship of not owning the latest gamebox.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Only Rich People get to have Fun!!

No. There are cheap alternatives to RTX 3080s or PS5s. Gaming is relatively accessible these days. You're not entitled to the latest cutting edge technology.

You really think that what scalpers are doing and not using a bot that does all the work? Oh, poor summer child of your.

In which case you're paying for the bot they purchased or coded. This changes nothing.

 

[AV]

Pricing people out of luxury toys...

I don't see anything unethical in scalping a luxury product tbh.

Just a heads up, consoles are not luxury items. I used to say this because I didn't understand what luxury items were - something being a non-essential good doesn't make it a luxury, it's just a product. Luxury items are things that people with more money own a disproportionate amount more of than people with less money i.e. designer clothes. Rich people don't own wardrobes/garages full of PS5s as a symbol of their status, they don't care.

I know what you're trying to say, it's just the incorrect usage of the word.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Just a heads up, consoles are not luxury items. I used to say this because I didn't understand what luxury items were - something being a non-essential good doesn't make it a luxury, it's just a product. Luxury items are things that people with more money own a disproportionate amount more of than people with less money i.e. designer clothes. Rich people don't own wardrobes/garages full of PS5s as a symbol of their status, they don't care.

I know what you're trying to say, it's just the incorrect usage of the word.

Thanks man, it's hard being an ESL sometimes.

 

[Bogeyman]

1. In your case the manufacturer priced the products too low. Let's say the willingness to pay for both customers is $500, but the manufacturer offers it for $100. That's a +$400 for the customer but a -$400 for the manufacturer. The manufacturer should've priced the product accordingly all along and the scalper is correcting for it.
2. The scalper "exploits" a market failure which is mispricing by the manufacturer.

Yep, that is correct. So the scalper only contributed to rising prices / extorting consumers to the absolute maximum limit they were willing to pay.

If you're the CEO of Nvidia, that's brilliant news. If you're pretty much anyone else here in this message board, it absolutely sucks.

It's a bit like cheering for this guy, who jacked up prices for live saving meds from $13.50 to $750. Sure, it's absolutely the value the market was willing to pay in order to maximise the manufacturer's profit. Yet somehow, his actions weren't exactly met with widespread applause.

 

[Skifi28]

you can still get a PS4 or a GTX 1060

Have you seen how much 1060s can go for? And we're talking about used cards from 6 years ago that could crap on you within a week.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Lol

This is a pretty easy to untangle.

Right now what he is arguing is that by his standards scalping is not unethical, that's it, sure its got the tone of "my opinion is fact" but that's all.

His argument relies entirely on you having the same ethical standard as the OP, which of course is diffrent from person to person.

Essentially what he wants is you to lower your ethical stand point to a level where you are also a piece of shit person, and will essentially continue to use Sea Lioning until you do or tire yourself out, thats it that's the whole thread.

I'm arguing that you are inconsistent by your own ethical standards because you wouldn't apply this logic to any other non-essential item. There are plenty of affordable alternatives to the PS5 or an RTX 3080. You're not priced out of gaming entertainment entirely, scalpers merely (temporarily, although this could take a while) price you out of the most cutting edge technology to the benefit of someone who is willing to pay more.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Yep, that is correct. So the scalper only contributed to rising prices / extorting consumers to the absolute maximum limit they were willing to pay.

If you're the CEO of Nvidia, that's brilliant news. If you're pretty much anyone else here in this message board, it absolutely sucks.

It's a bit like cheering for this guy, who jacked up prices for live saving meds from $13.50 to $750. Sure, it's absolutely the value the market was willing to pay in order to maximise the manufacturer's profit. Yet somehow, his actions weren't exactly met with widespread applause.

It's nothing like cheering for that guy because I absolutely oppose price gouging of anything pertaining health, shelter, education. But beyond that, you seem to agree with me?

 

[RoboFu]

Hardship of not owning the latest gamebox.

I would say a severe market shortage of computer chips for various major items caused by a global pandemic is a hardship.. even more so when you or your kids are stuck at home most of the time because of it and could use something like a game console .. I mean that’s just my opinion

To be clearer.. scalpers just don’t scalp game consoles.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Have you seen how much 1060s can go for? And we're talking about used cards from 6 years ago that could crap on you within a week.

Found a few refurbished ones for 200€. Gotta admit that's more than I expected, but then again if that's the cost then it must be because there's people willing to pay that.

RoboFu being bored at home isn't a hardship dude.

 

[Three]

1. Pricing people out of luxury toys is not unethical even if you do it the most cutthroat way possible (which scalpers arguably do, as you aptly described). I don't care if poor people don't have access to a cutting edge console or an RTX. Poor people are priced out of virtually all luxury products and services and that's fine. Nobody needs a PS5.
2. You're probably correct that MS and Sony don't raise the prices for brand perception reasons, yes. In a perfect market with no friction they should and would increase it. Scalpers are less concerned about their clout and bite the bullet for the profits. If MS and Sony increased the prices to their actual market value, you would be able to walk into a store and just grab a PS5 or Xbox and cut out the potentially shady middleman.

Something being unethical is only up to the persons view of the world. I mean the bolded I can't agree with and that's partly why Sony and MS don’t raise prices because a lot of people would have the view that they have priced them out of the market and would have a negative view of them just as people have a negative view of scalpers currently. It isn't a necessity but when the manufacturer is trying to sell it to you for a low price and somebody else is out there trying to snatch them up to sell then people would obviously feel that person is only thinking of themselves and making a buck out of doing nothing even when the company itself of all people isn't thinking about making that buck.

So yeah scalpers cause an equilibrium of current scarcity of supply and demand but what they are doing is making it hard for others for profit and little effort. That to a lot of people is not right.

It would be like a line for free samples of food, I line up multiple times or grab huge batches then sell them at a stand of my own. Is that unethical? I don't know but it certainly isn't right to me. I don't then excuse that by saying well the company shouldn't have been offering free samples of food, it should have charged.

 

[STARSBarry]

Arf arf arf

Remember completely opinion based, if you hate scalping because you consider them shit people with no moral compass, that's AOK.

 

[Gameplaylover]

Found a few refurbished ones for 200€. Gotta admit that's more than I expected, but then again if that's the cost then it must be because there's people willing to pay that.

Amazon Warehouse Dealz is a good source for graphic cards if you are lucky or have the right programs running. Got a ZOTAC GeForce GTX 1060 AMP! for 145 bucks last year.

 

[FromDuskTillGameOver]

 

[TintoConCasera]

Amazon Warehouse Dealz is a good source for graphic cards if you are lucky or have the right programs running. Got a ZOTAC GeForce GTX 1060 AMP! for 145 bucks last year.

Can't believe that I've been buying on Amazon for years and this is the first time I heard of that section. Thanks!

I get most of my PC related stuff on an spanish store, but I'll keep this as an alternative.

 

[kyussman]

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should......defending scalpers is a bit weird.I'm not a scalper...why?...because I'm not a fucking greedy scumbag.

 

[Lunarorbit]

1. In your case the manufacturer priced the products too low. Let's say the willingness to pay for both customers is $500, but the manufacturer offers it for $100. That's a +$400 for the customer but a -$400 for the manufacturer. The manufacturer should've priced the product accordingly all along and the scalper is correcting for it.
2. The scalper "exploits" a market failure which is mispricing by the manufacturer.

You keep saying the manufacturers mispriced the consoles like that would stop a scalper. If they were $800 priced at launch scalpers would charge $1500 at the beginning of release.

So your idea is to price the machines at a rate that makes it prohibitively expensive for ordinary people to buy them so that it's easier for the wealthy to buy?

 

[Bogeyman]

It's nothing like cheering for that guy because I absolutely oppose price gouging of anything pertaining health, shelter, education. But beyond that, you seem to agree with me?

No, I do not (generally) agree with your conclusion. In times of supply shortages, they may provide a temporary benefit for those who, I guess technically whose expected utility from paying the scalper a surcharge exceeds their expected utility from trying to buy a card on the non-scalping market.

That does have the side effect of the market discovering consumer's willingness to generally pay more for those cards though, which very likely leads to permanent drastic hikes of the MSRP.
Once we reach a situation where supply covers demand again, scalpers provide no longer provide benefits to anyone anymore - as no time is required to buy the product anymore. However, the price impact of their prior actions is still likely to be in effect.

Meaning, the folks who'd rather pay up now to save a bit of time, will pay again and again and again for their choice in the future, and are worse off at those points in time.

(Also, I oppose your view of price gauging for "luxury" products. Basic forms of entertainment are seen as a human right in many countries, and in fact stuff like unemployment benefits frequently include an allocation for exactly those things. So no, entertainment products only being available to a tiny subset of the population is not an acceptable outcome in my view.)

 

[AV]

Can't believe that I've been buying on Amazon for years and this is the first time I heard of that section. Thanks!

I get most of my PC related stuff on an spanish store, but I'll keep this as an alternative.

Protip: a few times a year Amazon have Warehouse sales where they add a 20% discount on top of the existing discount. You can get like-new hardware in a dented box super cheap. Got two sets of headphones, mouse, keyboard, speakers that way.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Something being unethical is only up to the persons view of the world. I mean the bolded I can't agree with and that's partly why Sony and MS don’t raise prices because a lot of people would have the view that they have priced them out of the market and would have a negative view of them just as people have a negative view of scalpers currently. It isn't a necessity but when the manufacturer is trying to sell it to you for a low price and somebody else is out there trying to snatch them up to sell then people would obviously feel that person is only thinking of themselves and making a buck out of doing nothing even when the company itself of all people isn't thinking about making that buck.

So yeah scalpers cause an equilibrium of current scarcity of supply and demand but what they are doing is making it hard for others for profit and little effort. That to a lot of people is not right.

It would be like a line for free samples of food, I line up multiple times or grab huge batches then sell them at a stand of my own. Is that unethical? I don't know but it certainly isn't right to me. I don't then excuse that by saying well the company shouldn't have been offering free samples of food, it should have charged.

I agree with most of what you say but

1. I would argue that most people probably agree with my ethical stance even if they're not willing to admit it. I worded it pretty harshly, but I have a hard time envisioning anyone caring much about poor people getting access to other cutting edge technology.
2. I would reject your food example for a variety of reasons. In your example, I would say you're acting in an unethical manner if that line for free food is aimed at those who starve. No such equivalent exists within the context of video game consoles or GPUs.
3. Food is an inelastic good. If you increase the price of food, the demand won't change substantially because it's a basic necessity. You need it no matter what. Distributing food equitably should be handled by government intervention if necessary.

 

[brian0057]

I'm arguing that you are inconsistent by your own ethical standards because you wouldn't apply this logic to any other non-essential item. There are plenty of affordable alternatives to the PS5 or an RTX 3080. You're not priced out of gaming entertainment entirely, scalpers merely (temporarily, although this could take a while) price you out of the most cutting edge technology to the benefit of someone who is willing to pay more.

I 100% support price gouging, even for essential things like food and medicine.
As someone who has seen firts-hand the terrible consequences of price control, you'll never convince me otherwise.
Declaring something a "necessity" doesn't make it immune to the law of supply and demand.

 

[bargeparty]

 

[nush]

I would say a severe market shortage of computer chips for various major items caused by a global pandemic is a hardship.. even more so when you or your kids are stuck at home most of the time because of it and could use something like a game console .. I mean that’s just my opinion

To be clearer.. scalpers just don’t scalp game consoles.

"Won't somebody think of the children" The poverty of only having a PS4 to play on, and hardship of having to play cross-gen versions of the same games.

 

[Halo is Back]

Scalpers are essentially making use of a market failure - namely Sony/Nvidia/AMD/etc. failing to increase the prices of their products even though the supply can't meet the demand (due to a chip shortage). The fact of the matter is that there isn't enough products at MSRP for everyone who'd like one, even if you eliminated all the scalpers who buy up the products at MSRP. So either you discriminate by price (which scalpers do) or by time/luck (hitting F5 at the right time on Amazon, checking Twitter bots all day). I don't understand why the latter is more virtuous than the former. Frankly, when it comes to luxury products I prefer an auction over a lottery. Scalpers buy products at MSRP, and redistribute it to those who are willing to pay more for them, thereby providing value as the recipient doesn't have to waste their time following Twitter bots day and night. They don't affect supply because they're obviously incentivized to resell. They do affect demand as the demand for a $1500 RTX 3080 is lower than for a $800 3080 but really, that's how price discovery works. If your price is such that the product is out of stock all the time, you've priced it too low.

If you hate scalpers, you should beg for the manufacturers to raise the console and GPU prices to their actual market value (they probably don't do it for brand perception reasons or otherwise). Currently, the products are simply priced too low.

 

[Roni]

It's kinda of fun watching people who usually love free market capitalism criticize people exploiting the free market fully...

 

[Gameplaylover]

Can't believe that I've been buying on Amazon for years and this is the first time I heard of that section. Thanks!

I get most of my PC related stuff on an spanish store, but I'll keep this as an alternative.

Yeah it's not very intuitive to find, but it saved me a shitload of money over the years. For example i saw a Series X on release for ~400 Euro and only the package was damaged. Bought a Series S a few day ago for 217 Euro, also just a damaged package.

Amazon Warehouse | Great deals on quality used products

Shop discounted deals on open-box items from Tablets, Laptops, TVs, Toys, Home & Kitchen, Lawn & Garden, Home Improvement, Sports & Outdoors, Cameras, and more.

www.amazon.com

 

[FranXico]

"Scalpers provide value"

 

[Spaceman292]

Scalpers are essentially making use of a market failure - namely Sony/Nvidia/AMD/etc. failing to increase the prices of their products even though the supply can't meet the demand (due to a chip shortage). The fact of the matter is that there isn't enough products at MSRP for everyone who'd like one, even if you eliminated all the scalpers who buy up the products at MSRP. So either you discriminate by price (which scalpers do) or by time/luck (hitting F5 at the right time on Amazon, checking Twitter bots all day). I don't understand why the latter is more virtuous than the former. Frankly, when it comes to luxury products I prefer an auction over a lottery. Scalpers buy products at MSRP, and redistribute it to those who are willing to pay more for them, thereby providing value as the recipient doesn't have to waste their time following Twitter bots day and night. They don't affect supply because they're obviously incentivized to resell. They do affect demand as the demand for a $1500 RTX 3080 is lower than for a $800 3080 but really, that's how price discovery works. If your price is such that the product is out of stock all the time, you've priced it too low.

If you hate scalpers, you should beg for the manufacturers to raise the console and GPU prices to their actual market value (they probably don't do it for brand perception reasons or otherwise). Currently, the products are simply priced too low.

fuck you man

 

[Y0ssarian]

"Won't somebody think of the children" The poverty of only having a PS4 to play on, and hardship of having to play cross-gen versions of the same games.

They'll have to play Sega Genesis, instead of PS5 on a 4k tv

 

[Imp the Dimp]

You keep saying the manufacturers mispriced the consoles like that would stop a scalper. If they were $800 priced at launch scalpers would charge $1500 at the beginning of release.

So your idea is to price the machines at a rate that makes it prohibitively expensive for ordinary people to buy them so that it's easier for the wealthy to buy?

1. Scalpers can price it at $1500 if they want, but we have established that the willingness to pay for those two individuals would be $500. In your scenario both the manufacturer and the scalpers would have mispriced the product and the two customers would not buy
2. Price discovery isn't easy. A good way to find out the market value of your product is an ebay auction, but sadly, that data is usually not available pre-release. You are always aiming for an equilibrium price which is "the only price where the plans of consumers and the plans of producers agree—that is, where the amount consumers want to buy of the product, quantity demanded, is equal to the amount producers want to sell, quantity supplied." (Source)

 

[anthony2690]

I agree they are not the cause for shortages, considering Chris Dring (that analyst guy) that some love to share on here, when the warriors want to fight over UK sales

Said that scalpers account for less than 2% of consoles sold in the UK.

But I also don't think they help people that don't have the time, I mean to have a twitter alert/bell on for a page like dealsfoundry on twitter isn't much effort and makes obtaining the consoles VERY VERY easy in the UK imo.

Scalpers are just opportunists for those that don't know better or people with more money than sense.

 

[TintoConCasera]

AV Gameplaylover amazing shit bros, thanks!

Thing is I don't usually look for refurbished goods, which is my fault since the few times I've bought refurbished (like my old ATI 1950) I've had great experiences, so I'll keep this in mind next time.

They'll have to play Sega Genesis, instead of PS5 on a 4k tv

Lucky children.

 

[nush]

They'll have to play Sega Genesis, instead of PS5 on a 4k tv

Wait? These hypothetical kids have a 4K TV? I guess a Framemister is cheaper than a PS5, but now they are fucked with collector prices for the great Genesis games. The whole system is rigged against these kids.

Scalpers to the left of me, scalpers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with 4K and Netflix.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I think more people are mad at scalpers for using seemingly impenetrable and unbeatable bots to purchase a plethora of consoles, crashing the websites and taking them away from people who actually want them. If scalpers want to sell it at a high price and customers are willing to pay those ludicrous, that’s their choice. I truly think using bots is unfair and I also point the proverbial finger at Sony and Microsoft for selling these consoles basically online only where scalpers can have themselves a party and take full advantage of the system.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

No, I do not (generally) agree with your conclusion. In times of supply shortages, they may provide a temporary benefit for those who, I guess technically whose expected utility from paying the scalper a surcharge exceeds their expected utility from trying to buy a card on the non-scalping market.

That does have the side effect of the market discovering consumer's willingness to generally pay more for those cards though, which very likely leads to permanent drastic hikes of the MSRP.

That is true, this is very likely the consequence of it. However, it is possible that GPUs are currently more expensive than they'd be if there was no chip shortage slowing down supply. But beyond that, you're seeing a market economy at work. People are seemingly willing to pay more than manufacturer anticipated for their products.

Once we reach a situation where supply covers demand again, scalpers provide no longer provide benefits to anyone anymore - as no time is required to buy the product anymore. However, the price impact of their prior actions is still likely to be in effect.

I think this is an interesting interpretation. You're basically complaining about scalpers snitching on us by revealing our true price preferences, no? Why do scalpers have more responsibility in this than the consumer who seemingly value RTX 3080s at $1500? "The scalper made us do it"?

Meaning, the folks who'd rather pay up now to save a bit of time, will pay again and again and again for their choice in the future, and are worse off at those points in time.

(Also, I oppose your view of price gauging for "luxury" products. Basic forms of entertainment are seen as a human right in many countries, and in fact stuff like unemployment benefits frequently include an allocation for exactly those things. So no, entertainment products only being available to a tiny subset of the population is not an acceptable outcome in my view.)

I agree that access to entertainment should not be curtailed and I don't necessarily think this is the case when you price someone out of the latest console or GPU. Buy a cheaper GPU or console or play on the hardware you got for the time being.

 

[brian0057]

Don't make me post the video again.

 

[Three]

I agree with most of what you say but

1. I would argue that most people probably agree with my ethical stance even if they're not willing to admit it. I worded it pretty harshly, but I have a hard time envisioning anyone caring much about poor people getting access to other cutting edge technology.
2. I would reject your food example for a variety of reasons. In your example, I would say you're acting in an unethical manner if that line for free food is aimed at those who starve. No such equivalent exists within the context of video game consoles or GPUs.
3. Food is an inelastic good. If you increase the price of food, the demand won't change substantially because it's a basic necessity. You need it no matter what. Distributing food equitably should be handled by government intervention if necessary.

My example was a free sample stand not a line for the starving. I would consider it not right even if it's just free samples as somebody in line might get a "sorry we're out of samples" because you've gone and grabbed multiple or lined up multiple times just to make money from somebody elses actual product. You've denied that person something for greed. Whether that type of greed is unethical or not is what's debatable and subjective.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I 100% support price gouging, even for essential things like food and medicine.
As someone who has seen firts-hand the terrible consequences of price control, you'll never convince me otherwise.
Declaring something a "necessity" doesn't make it immune to the law of supply and demand.

How would you avoid wealthy people buying up all the stock though? Being poor can't be a death sentence.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Don't make me post the video again.

A PS5 isn't insuline for a kid. What the fuck.

 

[Bogeyman]

I think this is an interesting interpretation. You're basically complaining about scalpers snitching on us by revealing our true price preferences, no? Why do scalpers have more responsibility in this than the consumer who seemingly value RTX 3080s at $1500? "The scalper made us do it"?

That's right, yes. Scalpers don't necessarily have more responsibility. But they have some. The situation would not arise without them.

There's plenty of precedent of hating, blaming, and even legally restricting those who offer services, rather than those that are using them.

Think back to the financial crisis. People took out stupid mortgages that they simple weren't able to afford. Objectively, it was entirely against their own interest (and that of the wider economy), but they did it anyway because they thought it'd be a great thing to do.
When the entire thing collapsed, blame was mostly put on the banks who gave out the mortgages, not onto the consumers who took them up.
Very similar cases can be made for cigarette ads, gambling den regulations, buy now pay later loans, .. the list goes on.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

That's right, yes. Scalpers don't necessarily have more responsibility. But they have some. The situation would not arise without them.

There's plenty of precedent of hating, blaming, and even legally restricting those who offer services, rather than those that are using them.

Think back to the financial crisis. People took out stupid mortgages that they simple weren't able to afford. Objectively, it was entirely against their own interest (and that of the wider economy), but they did it anyway because they thought it'd be a great thing to do.
When the entire thing collapsed, blame was mostly put on the banks who gave out the mortgages, not onto the consumers who took them up.
Very similar cases can be made for cigarette ads, gambling den regulations, buy now pay later loans, .. the list goes on.

Interesting perspective, much appreciated.

 

[brian0057]

How would you avoid wealthy people buying up all the stock though? Being poor can't be a death sentence.

It beats the alternative.
Banning price gouging all it did was that, instead of having the product at a high price, now there's no product at all.
And I don't have to imagine it.

 

[Hendrick's]

 

[ParaSeoul]

Was hoping this would get the account suicide tag

 

[The Cockatrice]

or have the right programs running

 

[brian0057]

Was hoping this would get the account suicide tag

Account suicide for speaking the truth?

 

[Imp the Dimp]

It beats the alternative.
Banning price gouging all it did was that, instead of having the product at a high price, now there's no product at all.
And I don't have to imagine it.

Are you in Venezuela? I haven't read enough about the situation there unfortunately. I could envision a scenario where food/medicine is in short supply and price controlling would disincentivize suppliers from producing but that's just off the top of my head.

 

[brian0057]

Are you in Venezuela? I haven't read enough about the situation there unfortunately. I could envision a scenario where food/medicine is in short supply and price controlling would disincentivize suppliers from producing but that's just off the top of my head.

Bingo.
2016 and 2017 are probably the worst years of my life.
It wasn't until the government loosened the restrictions that products slowly started appearing again.
They were expensive but you could at least find food and medicine again.

 

[assurdum]