Support NeoGAF

[BigbyTheSheriff]

There are devs on Resetera (from Dice, Nightdive Studios, Neon Giant etc) claiming that Series S is not a problem at all, praising the console but I guess negativity sells so no one is going to report on that.

Same goes for Digital Foundry/VG threads. Series S is 1440p60 (Like newest COD) or 1080p120 FPS (for example Doom Eternal), hell, even 4k in some other games? Who cares, not impressive.
Then let's say there's one game that somehow dips to 540p/720p (but 90% of the time is 1080p/900p) and suddenly we have 20 pages discussing how terrible XSS is.
That's like me saying Series X is 900p console because The Medium drops to such resolution.


So far Series S is doing really good, despite the fact that for the last 2 years all I've heard is "Just wait, next-gen games are around the corner and they will absolutely murder XSS" or "It's soon going to be a 540p30 console or streaming only".

Guess what? Flight Sim, Deathloop, Gotham Knights, Plague Tale Requiem are nowhere near that. And I'm fully aware they might not look like your mythical "next-gens" but fact is, these are only available on XSS/SX/PS5/PC.

In the upcoming months we'll have Starfield, Forza Motorsport, Redfall, Stars Wars Jedi Survivor, Dead Space Remake and whatever else. I'm 100% sure Series S will manage just fine.


But Hey, don't let me stop you from believing some Fish game dev and his "sources" or that concept artist/character artist who was shitting on Series S for a long time (he even said that XSS wouldn't run Forbidden West...a PS4 game).

 

[CeeJay]

If your game looks shitty or runs at 20fps on an RX580 nobody cares except maybe you on the RX580. If your game looks too different or rans at 20fps on Series S you aren’t getting certified. meaning you aren't releasing on Series X or PS5 either until MS are happy with that versions performance and difference.

Except from the results we have seen so far Series S is generally meeting its framerate target more often than the full fat consoles at their target resolution. For every dev that comes out and complains about Series S there are multiple more positive articles and comments. More often than not the ones who are complaining (like the one in this OP) are not the people actually coding the game or are responsible for some really shitty shovelware tier games that run like shit on the fastest GPUs.

You really want Series S to be a failure and be the villain of this generation, but that framing simply doesn't hold water when you look at it objectively.

 

[BigbyTheSheriff]

You really want Series S to be a failure and be the villain of this generation, but that framing simply doesn't hold water when you look at it objectively.

That's the MO for some of the users, or should I say "experts" here, yes.

 

[supernova8]

If Series S is seriously hampering game development why haven't we seen a PS exclusive game that is graphically noticeably more advanced than any other platform?

Given that the rest of the specs between the Series S and X are nearly identical, the question is whether the GPU and memory shortfalls are bad enough that it would literally hamper development. Especially if the true meat of next-gen is meant to be those super fast SSDs (which are identical between the S and X expect for capacity) then theoretically (if/when developers get to said "meat" of this gen) it shouldn't be an issue.

Beyond Ratchet & Clank, I'm not sure we've seen anything that seems like it would barely/not run at all on last-gen hardware so I really can't see this really being an issue yet.

 

[Three]

Except from the results we have seen so far Series S is generally meeting its framerate target more often than the full fat consoles at their target resolution.

It's people coding and creating assets for the game. Id is not shitty shovelware, Doom isn't shitty shovelware. The fact that series S is meeting its framerate target in games only shows that it's optimised for it. If it runs at 720p 20fps it would be rejected and not certified though. The point isn't that it can't meet framerate targets in released games it's that they need to optimise for it, so contrary to what people think the dev can't develop for Series X and just chuck some poor performing Series S version out. That's not how it works. It's the opposite.

For every dev that comes out and complains about Series S there are multiple more positive articles and comments. More often than not the ones who are complaining (like the one in this OP) are not the people actually coding the game or are responsible for some really shitty shovelware tier games that run like shit on the fastest GPUs.

I'm sure they exist too but they are not forced to delete their comments because of whiny people who take offence at their plastic box being slighted and insulting devs about "shovelware", "crap game" for stating an opinion.

You really want Series S to be a failure and be the villain of this generation, but that framing simply doesn't hold water when you look at it objectively.

See what I mean. Ad hominem again. If you wanted to be objective you would accept that some devs consider it a bottleneck and want to drop support. Not attack the messenger or call them nobodies who create shovelware, or somebody out to offend your precious box.

 

[Ozriel]

If they were attention whores they wouldn't delete their tweets from fear of upsetting the xbox fans. It's 'I am Fish' btw.

Let’s see:
the Rocksteady guy had to admit he wasn’t involved in Gotham Knights, had no experience with game optimization and had to eat crow when even the PC release was struggling on 3090s.
The guy in the OP was called out for his ludicrous claims when he couldn’t point out any of their shipping software or software in the works that would feasibly be held back by the Series S. Also, the very notion that people are devs are asking MS to drop support for a 2 year old console is an extremely obvious fib.

Beyond Ratchet & Clank, I'm not sure we've seen anything that seems like it would barely/not run at all on last-gen hardware so I really can't see this really being an issue yet.

The SSD use is pretty much the only thing that’s guaranteeing Ratchet and Clank remains next gen only.
Without that, it could comfortably be ported down to last gen level hardware.
Luckily, MS didn’t skimp on the SSD portion of their affordable console.

The point isn't that it can't meet framerate targets in released games it's that they need to optimise for it, so contrary to what people think the dev can't develop for Series X and just chuck some poor performing Series S version out. That's not how it works.

Not a single person is saying this. Everyone is saying you’ll have to optimize for the Series S. Every shipping software so far has had this done. Even The Coalition talks candidly about optimizing The Matrix UE5 experience for Series S.
It’s not the easiest of processes, but it’s doable, and more and more tools come available to ease the process.

I'm sure they exist too but they are not forced to delete their comments because of whiny people who take offence at their plastic box being slighted and insulting devs about "shovelware", "crap game" for stating an opinion.

The people you’re clinging to (like the Bossa Studios guy in the OP) wasn’t pitching it like an opinion. You folks haven’t been touting his words as just an opinion either. It’s been billed as ‘dev from experience says Series S is a nightmare’. It’s perfectly valid for people to call out blatant misinformation.

The Rocksteady guy out and out claimed that Series S held Gotham Knights down. Only to admit later that he had absolutely no real insight into Gotham Knights challenges. And the DF look at GK depicts a poorly optimized game on all platforms.

Doesn’t mean I support any toxicity towards the devs. Polite rebuttals should be what people reach for, not insults over plastic boxes.

See what I mean. Ad hominem again. If you wanted to be objective you would accept that some devs consider it a bottleneck and want to drop support. Not attack the messenger or call them nobodies who create shovelware, or somebody out to offend your precious box.

He wasn’t talking about the devs. He was referring to you.

 

[SomeGit]

It's people coding and creating assets for the game. Id is not shitty shovelware, Doom isn't shitty shovelware. The fact that series S is meeting its framerate target in games only shows that it's optimised for it. If it runs at 720p 20fps it would be rejected and not certified though.

What makes you say this?

Cyberpunk was certified for both Xbox One and PS4 while getting to very low resolutions and sub 20 fps consistently. And it wasn’t the only one example, DF has a laundry list of bottom of the barrel console ports that were certified.

 

[Three]

Let’s see:
the Rocksteady guy had to admit he wasn’t involved in Gotham Knights, had no experience with game optimization and had to eat crow when even the PC release was struggling on 3090s.
The guy in the OP was called out for his ludicrous claims when he couldn’t point out any of their shipping software or software in the works that would feasibly be held back by the Series S. Also, the very notion that people are devs are asking MS to drop support for a 2 year old console is an extremely obvious fib.

Ah yes, obvious to see you here too.

There you go again with the badmouthing others work or credentials. You don't need information about shipping software to say devs are holding meetings to try and drop support. He probably wanted to avoid replying to people like you who have an axe to grind and not legitimate interest.

Not a single person is saying this. Everyone is saying you’ll have to optimize for the Series S. Every shipping software so far has had this done. Even The Coalition talks candidly about optimizing The Matrix UE5 experience for Series S.
It’s not the easiest of processes, but it’s doable, and more and more tools come available to ease the process.

Then you've missed the point again. The point was that min spec isn't optimised and 720p 20fps would not be certified on XSS. So saying XSS hits its 30fps only shows that it had to be optimised to be cerified.

The people you’re clinging to (like the Bossa Studios guy in the OP) wasn’t pitching it like an opinion. You folks haven’t been touting his words as just an opinion either. It’s been billed as ‘dev from experience says Series S is a nightmare’. It’s perfectly valid for people to call out blatant misinformation.

The Rocksteady guy out and out claimed that Series S held Gotham Knights down. Only to admit later that he had absolutely no real insight into Gotham Knights challenges. And the DF look at GK depicts a poorly optimized game on all platforms.

Doesn’t mean I support any toxicity towards the devs. Polite rebuttals should be what people reach for, not insults over plastic boxes.

Completely ignored lead engine devs because it doesnt fit your narrative I see and went for the character attack again.

He wasn’t talking about the devs. He was referring to you.

Yeah no shit. The point is that you people with the corporate XSS love don't respond in good faith but have an axe to grind with the person instead, that being both me and the devs who might say anything unfavourable to your plastic box.

 

[Three]

What makes you say this?

Cyberpunk was certified for both Xbox One and PS4 while getting to very low resolutions and sub 20 fps consistently. And it wasn’t the only one example, DF has a laundry list of bottom of the barrel console ports that were certified.

I don't think a game removed from sale from the store is a good example but games do need to be certified and performance is part of that process.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Perhaps they use their common sense?


Again, pre-release and ID software had no title close to the terminal stages at the time.
We’ve had years of post launch Series S releases and we’ve seen how devs have had to compensate. In some cases, it hasn’t just been a resolution reduction. We’ve seen most games drop Ray tracing entirely from Series S along with effects reduction.

So yes, it’s not as simple as MS might have painted it and it hasn’t just been using a resolution slider. But devs are managing just fine.

Devs eventually managed things just fine making PS3 the lead platform, of course they can manage. It being free of consequences is another matter entirely as the quotes mentioned.

Pre-release for users but for a company under a big publisher… they had inside info a lot earlier than you and were quite quick on next generation patches for their games so again, not uninformed comments.

 

[CeeJay]

It's people coding and creating assets for the game. Id is not shitty shovelware, Doom isn't shitty shovelware. The fact that series S is meeting its framerate target in games only shows that it's optimised for it. If it runs at 720p 20fps it would be rejected and not certified though. The point isn't that it can't meet framerate targets in released games it's that they need to optimise for it, so contrary to what people think the dev can't develop for Series X and just chuck some poor performing Series S version out. That's not how it works. It's the opposite.

Assets are the easiest thing to downgrade for a lower spec. Visual assets are meshes and textures, literally batch save as and reduce the resolution.
The Id comments you are referring to were before the console had even released back in September 2020. Do they still think the same after working with the Series S? We don't know... however many AAA developers have said positive things and Karak has also presented anecdotal evidence that devs think Series S isn't any more troublesome generally than any other console.

See what I mean. Ad hominem again. If you wanted to be objective you would accept that some devs consider it a bottleneck and want to drop support. Not attack the messenger or call them nobodies who create shovelware, or somebody out to offend your precious box.

The devs who have called for it to be dropped have been mainly visual artists and in the case of "I am fish" a Unity game that isn't particularly well optimised on anything. How can we take these comments seriously and take them over and above the positive comments that have come from much more proficient developers? It's akin to me saying that an F1 car is badly engineered and needs to be redesigned because I can't do a lap without spinning out and everyone getting behind me and disregarding the professional F1 drivers who are saying there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Three]

Assets are the easiest thing to downgrade for a lower spec. Visual assets are meshes and textures, literally batch save as and reduce the resolution.

Not really. Especially if you change the way assets are done due to supporting raytracing only.

The Id comments you are referring to were before the console had even released back in September 2020. Do they still think the same after working with the Series S?

So you think they didn't have dev kits or knowledge 1 month before console release? I hope I don't need to tell you how highly unlikely that is.

We don't know... however many AAA developers have said positive things and Karak has also presented anecdotal evidence that devs think Series S isn't any more troublesome generally than any other console.

At least 3 of them said publicly that they hate it even in Karak's anecdotal evidence.

The devs who have called for it to be dropped have been mainly visual artists and in the case of "I am fish" a Unity game that isn't particularly well optimised on anything. How can we take these comments seriously and take them over and above the positive comments that have come from much more proficient developers? It's akin to me saying that an F1 car is badly engineered and needs to be redesigned because I can't do a lap without spinning out and everyone getting behind me and disregarding the professional F1 drivers who are saying there is nothing wrong with it.

Car analogies and comparing the Series S to an F1 car? awesome but I think the Series S would be the Reliant Robin that spins out that professional race car drivers are allowed to criticise. Unless they have a band of people like you throwing tomatoes at them that is. What would Series X, PS5, and PC be in this analogy?

 

[SomeGit]

I don't think a game removed from sale from the store is a good example but games do need to be certified and performance is part of that process.

It was removed only from PSN but it was approved and certified, while retail copies were still printed and distributed on both PS4 and Xbox.

It’s not the only example, PUBG, the last tinker, litchdom battlemage, ark, life of black tiger, etc etc like I said DF has a laundry list of awful console ports that were still given the go ahead by both MS and Sony, and that’s not including Nintendo were the list becomes even bigger.

 

[Ozriel]

Ah yes, obvious to see you here too.

There you go again with the badmouthing others work or credentials. You don't need information about shipping software to say devs are holding meetings to try and drop support. He probably wanted to avoid replying to people like you who have an axe to grind and not legitimate interest.

So to be clear, you firmly believe that devs are holding meetings to get Microsoft to drop support for a console that’s so far had no issues running all software for this generation?

Challenging =/= ‘bad mouthing’, by the way.

Then you've missed the point again. The point was that min spec isn't optimised and 720p 20fps would not be certified on XSS. So saying XSS hits its 30fps only shows that it had to be optimised to be cerified.

still have no freaking idea what point you’re trying to make here.

Devs are optimizing for the Series S. Water is wet.

Completely ignored lead engine devs because it doesnt fit your narrative I see and went for the character attack again.

Not a single one of this devs framed their comments with respect to hamstringing the generation or affecting the performances on the high end consoles. Dishonest of you lot to frame it this way.
Their initial impressions were that it could become a challenge to optimize for the console. They specifically pointed out that it’s not as simple as lowering resolution. And we’ve seen that in practice. Devs are lowering resolution, going with lower size textures, sometimes culling effects and eliminating Ray Tracing which is VRAM expensive.

And guess what? The games STILL look fantastic on Series S.
So no, the dishonest contribution around the ID devs concerns seems to come from you.

It also doesn’t help the Rocksteady guy’s case that while he complains about the GPU, the iD devs say the GPU is fine and focus their complains on the memory. So…who’s right?

You can read the Xbox Wire post about the Coalition helping out to ship Matrix on Xbox consoles. They specifically mention memory optimizations on Series S.

Yeah no shit. The point is that you people with the corporate XSS love don't respond in good faith but have an axe to grind with the person instead

All my responses have been in good faith. No personal attacks whatsoever. I believe some of their claims are frankly ludicrous and not based on reality. That’s not a personal attack.

both me and the devs who might say anything unfavourable to your plastic box.

One of my plastic boxes, please. Show some respect. My PS5, Switch, Series X and Steamdeck are all made of plastic. My PC used to have a plastic housing but I’ve moved to a Lenovo laptop for now and i think the housing has a ton of metal in it.

Don’t rope yourself in with those devs. Aside the obvious fib about the meetings to drop series s support, I can give them the benefit of doubt that these are folks just irritated at having to spend time to optimize for a lower spec SKU. You on the other hand…

 

[CeeJay]

At least 3 of them said publicly that they hate it even in Karak's anecdotal evidence.

2 VFX artists and a 2 year old article about ids concerns prior to the console coming out. Also crucially prior to a lot of tools that help with the memory issues.

Not really. Especially if you change the way assets are done due to supporting raytracing only.

I am Fish has never seen a traced ray!

So you think they didn't have dev kits or knowledge 1 month before console release? I hope I don't need to tell you how highly unlikely that is.

They probably did have dev kits but it was still early days and again there have been a lot of tools created and also increased the amount of memory available for games. In any case, a 2 year old article is still not a solid cornerstone to your case especially when in your evidence tray it sits next to the I am Fish artist and the Gotham Nights artists who it turns out didn't even work on the game. The case against Series S all looks a bit flimsy.

Car analogies and comparing the Series S to an F1 car? awesome but I think the Series S would be the Reliant Robin that spins out that professional race car drivers are allowed to criticise. Unless they have a band of people like you throwing tomatoes at them that is. What would Series X, PS5, and PC be in this analogy?

Regardless of the analogy my point was that if a developer isn't talented enough to make full use of all the technology available and isn't experienced enough to get an anywhere near optimised product on existing hardware how can we take their opinions about this seriously when other experienced AAA developers who are actually doing it have come out and said it's fine.

 

[Three]

It was removed only from PSN but it was approved and certified, while retail copies were still printed and distributed on both PS4 and Xbox.

It’s not the only example, PUBG, the last tinker, litchdom battlemage, ark, life of black tiger, etc etc like I said DF has a laundry list of awful console ports that were still given the go ahead by both MS and Sony, and that’s not including Nintendo were the list becomes even bigger.

Pubg was the Xbox one S version running on Series S at locked 30fps wasn't it? I don't remember it running at 20fps.

 

[Bavarian_Sloth]

At the moment I think the critical statements about the Series S are exaggerated.

But I wonder what will be in 2, 3 or 4 years. Suppose a developer wants to create a game with phenomenal details, ray tracing to the max and 1080p/60fps on PS5 and XSX, what then? Does the game then run in 480p or even lower on the XSS?

 

[Ozriel]

Devs eventually managed things just fine making PS3 the lead platform, of course they can manage. It being free of consequences is another matter entirely as the quotes mentioned.

Pre-release for users but for a company under a big publisher… they had inside info a lot earlier than you and were quite quick on next generation patches for their games so again, not uninformed comments.

The consequences In the quotes is the added time taken to make passes to optimize the games for a smaller memory pool. That will last the generation, and I can imagine some devs not being pleased at the extra work cycle.

That’s a far different conclusion than the “hamstring the generation” talk that permeated this thread. This was not a claim made by iD.

Also, I'm frankly tired of pointing out that the iD folks were clear that it wasn’t as simple as reducing resolution. And we’ve seen that in practice. Microsoft themselves have zero issues with shipping games culling other visual features to get the games to run well on Series S.

 

[Ozriel]

At the moment I think the critical statements about the Series S are exaggerated.

But I wonder what will be in 2, 3 or 4 years. Suppose a developer wants to create a game with phenomenal details, ray tracing to the max and 1080p/60fps on PS5 and XSX, what then? Does the game then run in 480p or even lower on the XSS?

We already have shipping games on Series S with Ray Tracing dropped entirely. So that’s what they’ll do first. That’ll free up a decent chunk of VRAM. Then tone down the details on Series S.
Not sure where you’re getting 480p from. And you don’t even need to wonder. Here’s Eurogamer’s analysis of The Medium to show you how Series S optimization can look like even for challenging games.

RT replaced with screen space reflections, resolution dropped, shadow quality reduced. Segments that run at 900p on Series X scaled down to 648p.

It’ll last the gen. Devs won’t be happy with the extra work, but if MS sales targets land as projected, it’ll be tens of millions of additional targets for devs.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Cant wait for a big first party dev to come out with some "yeah its 30FPS but honestly, it feels like 60" lol

 

[Three]

I am Fish has never seen a traced ray!

Nobody is talking about "I Am Fish" other than you lot trying to discredit what's been said by attacking somebody's past work. Nobody is saying I'm fish is raytraced. Ironically I'm seeing 20yr old ports coming up as to why this studios opinions are irrelevant.

They probably did have dev kits but it was still early days and again there have been a lot of tools created and also increased the amount of memory available for games. In any case, a 2 year old article is still not a solid cornerstone to your case especially when in your evidence tray it sits next to the I am Fish artist and the Gotham Nights artists who it turns out didn't even work on the game. The case against Series S all looks a bit flimsy.

Because they have you lot to contend with now. You think the engine devs would make the same mistake and have to delete tweets again from the ravenous fanboys? Evidence like this is enough to see no sane person would publicly do it even if they hold the same opinions.

Regardless of the analogy my point was that if a developer isn't talented enough to make full use of all the technology available and isn't experienced enough to get an anywhere near optimised product on existing hardware how can we take their opinions about this seriously when other experienced AAA developers who are actually doing it have come out and said it's fine.

They haven't said it's fine. A lot of devs can't talk openly about it because it always goes the same way, it blowing up and post deletion.

So to be clear, you firmly believe that devs are holding meetings to get Microsoft to drop support for a console that’s so far had no issues running all software for this generation?

Yes, I do think some devs would like to drop the requirement and release on XSX. Ran software for this generation which means they went through the process already and don't want to again. As is what was said.

still have no freaking idea what point you’re trying to make here.

Devs are optimizing for the Series S. Water is wet.

That min spec isn't the same as optimising for console. Which was the initial point CeeJay replied to.

Not a single one of this devs framed their comments with respect to hamstringing the generation or affecting the performances on the high end consoles. Dishonest of you lot to frame it this way.
Their initial impressions were that it could become a challenge to optimize for the console. They specifically pointed out that it’s not as simple as lowering resolution. And we’ve seen that in practice. Devs are lowering resolution, going with lower size textures, sometimes culling effects and eliminating Ray Tracing which is VRAM expensive.

And guess what? The games STILL look fantastic on Series S.
So no, the dishonest contribution around the ID devs concerns seems to come from you.

It also doesn’t help the Rocksteady guy’s case that while he complains about the GPU, the iD devs say the GPU is fine and focus their complains on the memory. So…who’s right?

You can read the Xbox Wire post about the Coalition helping out to ship Matrix on Xbox consoles. They specifically mention memory optimizations on Series S.

Do you think everybody wants help from the coalition? Or that they are willing to for every other studio? The fact that Epic even needed it should tell you everything.
How about both are right for different reasons because not every engine or game is the same.

All my responses have been in good faith. No personal attacks whatsoever. I believe some of their claims are frankly ludicrous and not based on reality. That’s not a personal attack.



One of my plastic boxes, please. Show some respect. My PS5, Switch, Series X and Steamdeck are all made of plastic. My PC used to have a plastic housing but I’ve moved to a Lenovo laptop for now and i think the housing has a ton of metal in it.

Don’t rope yourself in with those devs. Aside the obvious fib about the meetings to drop series s support, I can give them the benefit of doubt that these are folks just irritated at having to spend time to optimize for a lower spec SKU. You on the other hand…

All your responses to me in this forum entirely have been in defense of Xbox whenever I mention anything. It wasn't referring to you either.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Devs don't care about PC, they will just slap requirements based on lowest performing console and move on but you are forgetting that aside vram PC has massive amount of main ram as well.

And as quoted above MANY developers were compalinging about series s, including ID that weren't part of MS back then, now they can't complain obviously LOL.

Software sales $ from PC will eclipse the console market soon and in some cases already has, If you think they don't care about PC sales you are kidding yourself for one thing. Second, they do need to make sure that a sizable amount of PC users can utilize the software. That's why you don't see a bunch of games with full RT designed for 3090s, not enough potential buyers. PC is always marching forward, but minimum requirements are quite a bit behind the latest and greatest hardware.

Something being more work and a pain in the ass to devs is something quite different from devs refusing to work with it or ports not be possible. Also, I think you underestimate the amount of devs working on games and thus fail to see what a minisucle amount of public criticism the XSS has received.

 

[CeeJay]

Nobody is talking about "I Am Fish" other than you lot trying to discredit what's been said by attacking somebodies past work. Nobody is saying I'm fish is raytraced. Ironically I'm seeing 20yr old ports coming up as to why this studios opinions are irrelevant.

Oh rigggghhttt, I must be posting in the wrong thr..... oh wait...

Because they have you lot to c9ntend with now. You think the engine devs would make the same mistake and have to delete tweets again from the ravenous fanboys? Evidence like this is enough to see no sane person would publicly do it even if they hold th3 same opinions.

i don't use Twitter and certainly don't get involved in witch hunting and running people off the internet. I am just discussing the OP with people here and some who clearly have an agenda and will argue their points to death in longer and longer replies.

 

[DaGwaphics]

But Hey, don't let me stop you from believing some Fish game dev and his "sources" or that concept artist/character artist who was shitting on Series S for a long time (he even said that XSS wouldn't run Forbidden West...a PS4 game).

Had not seen that one. Yeah this dude has some credibility right here.

 

[avin]

To the extent that the series S doesn't do raytracing well enough because of limited memory that doesn't scale down with graphical resolution, we have one piece of evidence of XSS "holding the gen back". Given that it's raytracing and the big consoles don't do it well enough either, it's a sacrifice I for one think worthwhile. This gen can't do raytracing, and I at least turn that stuff off anyway, even on PC, certainly on Doom Eternal on XSX. It's never been worth the performance hit.

It would be good to learn of other examples where the series S RAM is truly limiting because the graphics structures in RAM don't scale with resolution. It could happen, but right now, I don't know of any. Until then, I think some people are hugely overinterpreting the limited information we have.

avin

 

[Three]

Oh rigggghhttt, I must be posting in the wrong thr..... oh wait...

What? The only people bringing up "I am fish" are the people who went out and looked for this devs studio and that studio's work to berate it.
Nobody is saying "I am fish" is raytraced or anything.

 

[CeeJay]

What? The only people bringing up "I am fish" are the people who went out and looked for this devs studio and that studio's work to berate it.
Nobody is saying "I am fish" is raytraced or anything.

The OP is a series of tweets by I am fish VFX artist so that's why everyone is bringing up I am fish perhaps?

You were the one who mentioned how VFX designers have to consider ray tracing and I pointed out that I am fish doesn't have it so that can't be any part of the argument in this case.

But, the simple answer to it is like with other games that have had RT on XSX and PS5 but it has been simply switched of for XSS. If XSS can't handle it just switch it off, downgrade res, lower framerate etc. There are a lot of visuals that can be downgraded and still deliver the same game.

 

[gothmog]

So obviously it's more than just changing resolution targets based on what I've read, but it does seem like with some tooling upgrades they could smooth this out for the vast majority of developers. I would imagine they could just have a profiler that looks at the premium build, measures to what degree they are using advanced features they are using that tends to tax the hardware, and offer some checkboxes or configurables to tweak the settings.

I feel like the drama on this topic is completely unnecessary. Optimization can and will continue over time. MS is just offering a target for that optimization now rather than later if that makes any sense? Or do we wait for a mid-gen refresh and then have the devs figure out how to work with it? I'm not saying MS has the right idea, but it seems like mid-gen refreshes are going to be here to stay. Console makers love getting the double dip on a generation and I'm sure the devs enjoy the optional extra horsepower.

 

[SomeGit]

Pubg was the Xbox one S version running on Series S at locked 30fps wasn't it? I don't remember it running at 20fps.

It was running at that framerate (and below) on the One S. If that was certified I don’t see why the same wouldn’t be on Series S.

 

[Three]

The OP is a series of tweets by I am fish VFX artist so that's why everyone is bringing up I am fish perhaps?

For the reason I mentioned above.

You were the one who mentioned how VFX designers have to consider ray tracing and I pointed out that I am fish doesn't have it so that can't be any part of the argument in this case.

You were talking about asset creation and using "batch save as" at a lower res. I mentioned it's not that easy especially with something like raytracing and no raytracing. Then weirdly you saw it fit to berate "I am fish" again by mentioning it's not touched a ray. Nobody is talking about I am fish.
Id engine dev mentions asset creation too but I guess that doesn't matter either.

 

[Rykan]

Perhaps they use their common sense?

How the heck is it common sense?

Nobody develops that way. Why do you think every single cross gen game released on PS5/XSX/S only looks marginally better than the last gen counterpart? It's because the last gen version was developed first, and the current gen version received enhancements on top of that.

If you target a high-end SKU first, you risk developing or introducing systems or aspects that is hard to, or even impossible, to run on lower end systems. A situation that is easily avoidable by developing for the lower end first, and then enhancing it for the higher end SKU.

 

[DaGwaphics]

How the heck is it common sense?

Nobody develops that way. Why do you think every single cross gen game released on PS5/XSX/S only looks marginally better than the last gen counterpart? It's because the last gen version was developed first, and the current gen version received enhancements on top of that.

If you target a high-end SKU first, you risk developing or introducing systems or aspects that is hard to, or even impossible, to run on lower end systems. A situation that is easily avoidable by developing for the lower end first, and then enhancing it for the higher end SKU.

I think he is referring to the specific scenario we are talking about here, where these devs work in art and character design. All the art starts top down, you aren't going to design the art with a low quality and then do it over again (unless we are talking a full remaster years later). The source art is always going to be the highest quality with downgraded versions being created as needed.

 

[NEbeast]

Ah yes, Bossa studios. How would gaming even survive without those guys?

Not every studio is a massive AAA studio that has massive budgets. Having to spend more time on the Xss reduces dev time that could be spent elsewhere. Even AAA devs have said similar things to the guy on the OP. I'm sure a dev from a studio MS bought/ is buying said the exact same thing before it was revealed MS were buying them.

 

[Three]

I think he is referring to the specific scenario we are talking about here, where these devs work in art and character design. All the art starts top down, you aren't going to design the art with a low quality and then do it over again (unless we are talking a full remaster years later). The source art is always going to be the highest quality with downgraded versions being created as needed.

Not really because he and others are going out of their way to separate 'devs' and 'artists' and he is talking about the devs

Same dev environment, and devs target high end and scale down to low end. There’s no disuse of Higher end features or shortchanging lower end users.

With art and character design you are not targeting anything. If you are doing separate assets you will target both individually from something that can't be used on either.

 

[Ozriel]

How the heck is it common sense?

Nobody develops that way. Why do you think every single cross gen game released on PS5/XSX/S only looks marginally better than the last gen counterpart? It's because the last gen version was developed first, and the current gen version received enhancements on top of that.

Horizon Forbidden West looks better than Demon Souls which is next gen exclusive. God of War Ragnarok will most probably be the best looking game on PS5. All cross gen.

The games don’t look that drastically better because it’s the beginning of the gen and devs are getting to grips with the console. Not to mention you’re underestimating the impact of the switch to higher framerates this gen.

I certainly doubt the Kratos model in Ragnarok would look any more detailed if there wasn’t a PS4 port.

If you target a high-end SKU first, you risk developing or introducing systems or aspects that is hard to, or even impossible, to run on lower end systems. A situation that is easily avoidable by developing for the lower end first, and then enhancing it for the higher end SKU.

For the umpteenth time, the Series S has the same CPU and SSD as the Series X, two of Cerny’s next gen pillars. Systems developed with those in mind will move across seamlessly.

Visual effects that are hard to run on Series S will be pared back. For the umpteenth time, we’ve seen the standard workflow being to drop Ray tracing and run with lower texture quality on Series S.

The Matrix Experience was developed with the PS5 and Series X in mind. Scaled down to Series S

 

[Three]

It was running at that framerate (and below) on the One S. If that was certified I don’t see why the same wouldn’t be on Series S.

Not surprised it went sub 30fps on One S. Not hitting constant 30fps last gen is more akin to not hitting 60fps this gen if that was your highest framerate target.

I think the fact that the Series S got the xbox One S build and the Series X got an improved version for a while only adds credence that support for Series S wasn't high on the priority list for PUBG either.

 

[Three]

For the umpteenth time, the Series S has the same CPU and SSD as the Series X. Visual effects that are hard to run on Series S will be pared back. For the umpteenth time, we’ve seen the standard workflow being to drop Ray tracing and run with lower texture quality on Series S.

The workflow is exactly what people are complaining about. Also it's not just about CPU, memory is the big elephant in the room.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That’s a far different conclusion than the “hamstring the generation” talk that permeated this thread. This was not a claim made by iD.

I think that it was the entire point of “min specs matter” to be frank.

 

[Ozriel]

The workflow is exactly what people are complaining about. Also it's not just about CPU, memory is the big elephant in the room.

Well, Your very first post in this thread was to push the ‘holding back’ and ‘hamstrung’ narrative.

Looks like you’re pivoting to ‘challenging workflow’. At least that’s more credible.

 

[SomeGit]

Not surprised it went sub 30fps on One S. Not hitting constant 30fps last gen is more akin to not hitting 60fps this gen if that was your highest framerate target.

I think the fact that the Series S got the xbox One S build and the Series X got a native/improved version for a while only adds credence that support for Series S wasn't high on the priority list for PUBG either.

The fuck are you even talking about dude?

1. The Series S did get a pubg update, it’s 1080p60 on it with better visual settings, so your “credence” make 0 sense. But this has 0 to do with the point.

2. It was not sub 30, it was sub 20 on One S sometimes single digits, don’t bullshit around with “equivalents”, pubg had unacceptable performance even by last gen standards and it was still certified, as were other games on PS4 aswell. There no reason reason to assume a Series S game at 720p20 wouldn’t get certified when BOTH console developers have recently approved much worse examples.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Then you've missed the point again. The point was that min spec isn't optimised and 720p 20fps would not be certified on XSS. So saying XSS hits its 30fps only shows that it had to be optimised to be cerified.

????

What's your source saying certification is why 30 fps is minimum frame rate on Series S? We've seen devs hit below both 30 fps and Full HD on current-gen systems without MS seemingly complaining much. There is absolutely zero proof that a 720p 20 fps game wouldn't be certified on Series S. However such a game would (rightfully) get destroyed by critics and gamers alike.

 

[Three]

Well, Your very first post in this thread was to push the ‘holding back’ and ‘hamstrung’ narrative.

Looks like you’re pivoting to ‘challenging workflow’. At least that’s more credible.

Only if you ignore the context of my first post. It was to point out the berating post that suggested it was just Bossa Studios, it gave a very recent quote from another studio that used the word 'hamstrung' and complained that you couldn't release on XSX without XSS.

 

[Three]

The fuck are you even talking about dude?

1. The Series S did get a pubg update, it’s 1080p60 on it with better visual settings, so your “credence” make 0 sense. But this has 0 to do with the point.

I said "For a while" meaning it got it july this year. But you are right, it doesn't really add credence since they improved the XSX and PS5 versions too.

2. It was not sub 30, it was sub 20 on One S sometimes single digits, don’t bullshit around with “equivalents”, pubg had unacceptable performance even by last gen standards and it was still certified, as were other games on PS4 aswell. There no reason reason to assume a Series S game at 720p20 wouldn’t get certified when BOTH console developers have recently approved much worse examples.

What have xbox approved at 720p 20fps on a Series S?

 

[Klosshufvud]

I said "For a while" meaning it got it july this year. But you are right, it doesn't really add credence since they improved the XSX and PS5 versions too.

What have xbox approved at 720p 20fps on a Series S?

Just because there aren't any 720p 20 fps games on Series S, does NOT mean that was so because somehow MS blocked such a game. The far more likely explanation is that any dev knows those standards aren't acceptable in 2022 for their new consoles. Even then, we've had games dip sub 1080p and 30 fps this gen. Your arguments are based on a false assumption. You need to reconsider why your assumptions are what they are.

 

[Three]

????

What's your source saying certification is why 30 fps is minimum frame rate on Series S? We've seen devs hit below both 30 fps and Full HD on current-gen systems without MS seemingly complaining much. There is absolutely zero proof that a 720p 20 fps game wouldn't be certified on Series S. However such a game would (rightfully) get destroyed by critics and gamers alike.

I'm not saying that 30fps is a minimum framerate. I'm saying if you release a 720p 20fps mess on XSS MS can refuse certification. It has things like that in the contract

Publisher will (1) in its implementation of such features, optimize the performance and technical capability of Xbox Console versions in parity with the Console Version video game on the Competitive Platform;

 

[SomeGit]

What have xbox approved at 720p 20fps on a Series S?

Matrix, can dip down to 720p20.

What proof do you have that an hypothetical Series S game wouldn’t get approved? Zero proof.

You are passing that as fact here when you have 0 proof of that.

 

[Three]

Just because there aren't any 720p 20 fps games on Series S, does NOT mean that was so because somehow MS blocked such a game. The far more likely explanation is that any dev knows those standards aren't acceptable in 2022 for their new consoles. Even then, we've had games dip sub 1080p and 30 fps this gen. Your arguments are based on a false assumption. You need to reconsider why your assumptions are what they are.

The argument was somebody saying just release on XSX and do a low effort 720p 20fps job for XSS because nobody will care. Certification would care.

 

[Klosshufvud]

The argument was somebody saying just release on XSX and do a low effort 720p 20fps job for XSS because nobody will care. Certification would care.

Baseless claim. Examples already mentioned in this thread proving you wrong.

 

[Three]

Matrix, can dip down to 720p20.

What proof do you have that an hypothetical Series S game wouldn’t get approved? Zero proof.

You are passing that as fact here when you have 0 proof of that.

Yes even with the help of the coalition they released a demo like that. It's not a game. I was saying min spec is not certified whereas on consoles certification is required and you can't just release any old mess.

 

[Three]

Baseless claim. Examples already mentioned in this thread proving you wrong.

An Epic demo that required help from a first party studio to run on the XSS? Great. Why did they even get the coalitions help. They should have released any old mess however it was.