Klosshufvud
Member
The burden of proof is on you. Your assumptions are completely unsubstantiated.
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"MANY developers have been sitting in meetings for the past year desperately trying to get Series S launch requirements dropped"
- Thread starter Tiago Rodrigues
- Start date
I gave you a clause in a contract that shows they reserve the right to assess performance for certification. I don't need proof of how stringent they are with it because that's not the point. The point is that MS reserve the right to reject what they deem unacceptable.
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Klosshufvud
Member
That's literally the case for every console ever. However, I'm still not seeing anywhere of this supposed 720p 20 fps requirement you keep talking about.
(If you didn't know, Sony and Nintendo do this too. They've done it since forever to prevent another Atari situation)
You are the one that gave specific numbers, Wtf?
What they deem unacceptable, judging by the lack past examples could be anything, but 720p20 seems far from it.
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Do you two enjoy missing the woods for the trees or what? Again:
The values are just examples to a poor performing release. One which I actually don't think has been certified too but again how stringent they are is not the point.
Ok insert your own exact values so it make sense to you. at what point do you think it would not pass certification?
240p 10fps?
Better now? I just gave a value. The point is that MS can reject certification. Min spec is different, it can just be set higher or may not even run acceptably at min spec.
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Klosshufvud
Member
I think what you should've done some pages ago is just admit you were mistaken regarding certification. And another thing, you're completely misguided if you don't think that both MS and Sony aid and advise third-parties all the time. You sound like a fanboy, as if it somehow doesn't count that a game runs good on Series S because the devs somehow cheated your idea of competition.
Klosshufvud
Member
MS, Sony and Nintendo have been able to reject games in certification since forever. Why are you making an issue out of this now?
How well do you think an hypothetical 240p10fps game run on XSX and PS5.
They all have the same hardware architecture, discounting RAM which is a major problem with the XSS but by then resolution or framerate wouldn’t be a factor, saying unacceptable low performance wouldn’t be certified, which by the examples we’ve seen a lot of unacceptable stuff has been in the past, how badly would that also been performing on XSX?
Min spec pcs and recommended specs are usually rifts apart in performance, not just a fraction of the performance.
Sorry but I still don’t see your point, you are not going to get a game that runs fine on XSX it performs so badly on XSS to the point of missing certification. The biggest headache for developer will always be the RAM pool, but the game doesn’t run if you are getting OOM errors.
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Rykan
Member
Whether it looks better than Demons souls is debatable. Demons souls was a launch game, and Horizon:FW certainly doesn't look better than R&C or TLOU: PART 1. All footage shown of God of War Ragnarok thus far suggests that it doesn't even belong in the conversation of best looking PS5 game.
R&C & TLOU: Part one are by far the best looking games out so thus far, and they support higher frame rates as well.
Way to focus on just one aspect of graphical presentation.
You can keep repeating it, but that doesn't make it true. You seem to think that just because they have a similar SSD and CPU, that the only have to tweak a few graphical settings and there you go.
But don't take my word for it: Here is what Thomas Puha from Remedy has to say about the matter:
This whole idea that developers target "high end SKU's first and then figure out how to scale it back to the lower sku" is nonsense. It's completely ridiculous.
The Matrix Experience is a tech demo and is not at all a representation of an actual game.
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Perhaps you could have just understood the initial intent and context of the post instead:
Instead you concentrated on "prove it's 30fps minimum" ? When clearly that wasn't the point and I was trying to tell you that wasn't the point.
Really? That's what you took from this conversation? That I think they cheated competition and don't think others do similar?
The point was that MS likely saw it and didn't let any old hot mess release on Series S beside the XSX and PS5 versions by putting some first party devs on it to help with that system. The point is that they didn't just allow the dev to release some poor performing crap on it contrary to what some think here.
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Klosshufvud
Member
Yes, MS will absolutely object if your game is downright unplayable on their consoles. And a good thing that, because QA is why we aren't flooded with even more shovelware. Your point is that this certification process (which is from what I've heard just ensuring the game doesn't completely shit the bed or overheat the consoles) will prohibit games...from being made on Series X? Games will be crippled on Series X? This is the moment I tell you that certification is something that comes fairly late in a development cycle. It makes no sense that a supposed strict Series S certification would be the cause to why a Series X version would be cancelled. Because the competent devs usually fix their shit long before it even comes to certification. Your point is that devs can't make a completely broken Series S version and you tried to spin that as somehow a negative. It isn't.
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01011001
Banned
The Coalition didn't help with the Series S version they helped with the demo as a whole, INCLUDING the PS5 version
The Coalition in fact seems to help quite a lot with UE5's development as they are literally comprised of ex-UE4 developers and to this day released the best UE4 game on the market in terms of balancing visuals and performance.
DaGwaphics
Member
You'd think there wasn't much budget there either, seeing that is was just a demo sponsored by a movie tie-in promo.
01011001
Banned
i mean it runs like shit on everything, so it really is just a feature showcase more than anything... but it was impressive that the Series S could handle all that Raytracing in an open world, so mission accomplished in that regard I guess
They worked with Epic on memory optimisation especially for the series s:
"In that area, they worked with Epic to ensure the assets in the demo were set up to fully leverage virtual texture streaming and nanite wherever possible and tuned internal memory systems, especially on Xbox Series S, to ensure it all fit in the memory."
" With this focus, the Xbox Series S version shipped with all the same UE5 features enabled as Xbox Series X (albeit with different quality) including but not limited to raytraced reflections and raytraced shadows. Regardless of which platform you experience it on, you’re in for a visual treat."
Direct from MS themselves. I'm sure whatever optimisations they worked on would apply to all systems but it was clear they were lending a hand for memory optimisation especially on the Series S.
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01011001
Banned
so basically, a good developer came in, fixed the damn engine for them, and now everyone profits from it.
that's why we can't listen to Mr. "I'm the lead artist of I am Fish" when it comes to this stuff, when even Epic Games needed help from a different studio that apparently knows the engine better than their own guys in order to fully utilise the system
I'd say that's even more reason to listen when somebody as big and talented as Epic needs a helping hand for memory/performance optimisation. Everyone profits from any known optimisation, sure. Not sure how that's related.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
How is this still going. I thought the original chode who made these stupid comments deleted them and we realised it was more or less bull?
ResilientBanana
Member
Right? Not to mention, PC is also a benchmark for developers. Coding for the XSX is pretty synonymous with every game considering.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Infact shouldn't this thread just be closed....it looks like there's some crazy back and forth going on and tbh it's just annoying opening rhe site and seeing Three on some crazy rant that I can't even be assed to read.
Surely you have some games to play dude? The guy who spawned all rhis shiz deleted his tweets and Karak has spoken to devs and only three of them hated the series S but they hate consoles anyway so it's just pointless man.
Surely you have some games to play dude? The guy who spawned all rhis shiz deleted his tweets and Karak has spoken to devs and only three of them hated the series S but they hate consoles anyway so it's just pointless man.
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Klosshufvud
Member
I'm glad to see you mind fucked on your own logic.
There is no crazy rant. It's more complaining about people like you who attack people for raising anything about that specific piece of hardware. I mean was there really any reason to call that guy a chode because he said something about a piece of hardware and what is happening behind the scenes? He deleted his post too because he got a bunch of angry rants from xbox fans about his "crap game". Whatever, I really couldn't care less if the thread is closed but why do you want it closed? shouldn't you be playing games and ignoring it?
Celcius
°Temp. member
no way
Next gen maybe and I see them unfortunately going down that route and the high end will be marginalised instead. Midgen I doubt.
It would make absolutely no sense midgen to require all devs to go back to their games and redo them for lesser hardware. That would be a nightmare nobody would agree on. They can't even guarantee PSVR2 compatibility for all games, what makes this guy think they will get publishers and devs to go through that midgen for all regular games?
twilo99
Member
They already do by having to target the ps4 no?
So you think they will go back and convince other publishers to redo Gotham Knights, Deathloop, Ghostwire Tokyo, The Medium and all the other games on lesser hardware and those devs would have to listen?
They do for PS4 games but you are asking for a lesser PS5 and they can't convince anyone to redo a game on it.
01011001
Banned
unreal engine has been a mess for quite some time tho.
I mean all you gotta do is play any UE4 game on PC and you'll have a terrible time in 99% of cases.
where once again The Coalition is the one studio that stands out as Gears 5 didn't have shader stutters while almost every other UE4 game has them.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
People gave death threats to Austin Evans and his family over his opinion on the PS5 revision. People pushing back against claims made about a product they like happens all the time. It far from being just an XSS thing.
With regards to people playing games instead of ignoring a platform I ask that question all the time. Why would a person have to comment on a platform they don't own, don't like and in most cases know little about? I can't imagine anyone taking time out of their day to do that, can you?
Trazyn the Infinite
Member
Console Warriors don't play games. They just bitch and moan about them.
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Didn't the steamdeck only just hit 1M units recently since launch in Feb? I'm not sure devs are clamoring for support there. No disrespect to the Steamdeck. Not even MS does official support for steamdeck on their games. You would be better off with switch as your lowest spec if you wanted popularity above all else.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I could be wrong but it looks like the guy got exposed and infact was not being entirely truthful so he deleted his tweets. If that is not the case then I've got the wrong end of the stick, but it seems like a lot of developers have since chimed in on why the series s is actually not a terrible piece of kit, and from actually using and owning one, unlike yourself probably....I also have many a moons experience with hardware, that the series S is showing no signs up struggling with any games at all this gen. Its delivering more than great performance and decent graphics for what it was designed for.
On a 1080p display it looks really quite impressive and I really don't think it's worth debating with people that haven't even seen one in the flesh never mind used it to see how good it actually is, and how much of a blessing it is for people like myself who have younger kids who want to play and a Mrs that sometimes hogs the TV. if I'm not in the mood to play on my PC I can go lay on my kids big double bed and play some games on a box that's not much bigger than an original wii, silently and with great performance.
There's some seriously insecure people that feel the need to Diss the thing. By the time there will be any issue for the series s the pro consoles will be out and the current consoles will be a thing of the past.
If I genuinely see a game that impresses me and actually looks and seems to be next gen as fook and they chime in and say the series s is a burden I may believe them, but it's gotta look and do things better than arkham knights.
I just don't see the point in a thread being open to discuss this stuff if there isn't genuine evidence. If a developer is going to make that claim, go on a podcast with Karak etc and completely explain why the box is shit and can't keep up with ps5 and series x outside of lowering resolution and effects.
Just came back off a binge on plagues tale which is one incredible looking game, can't wait for the digital Foundry on it.
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DaGwaphics
Member
The fact that UE5 was a work in progress at the point the demo was done can't be overlooked either. It was completed when 30fps was all you could do on XSX/PS5 with nanite and lumen, now 60fps can be supported. That kind of optimization will probably make the XSS a lot easier to work with (they can use this less intensive profile that XSX/PS5 use for 60fps but stick to 30fps on the XSS if needed).
The guy didn't get exposed lying just like the countless other devs didn't either yet deleted their tweets because they didn't want angry xbox owners hurling abuse as usual and him getting into trouble at work for angering possible customers.
I've used a Series S but I own a PC. Have you developed for it though? Do you know how much work or trouble Series S optimisation is? Do you know that memory dictates a lot of things this gen? The devs making comments do.
Gotham Knights. Sure i get that some of these devs aren't going to be The Coalition, Santa Monica, or ND but can you at least empathise and see that Series S is a development burden? That it requires far more work to get a lesser result than the XSX/PS5? For games that might not even sell on it. That its memory limits what can be achieved this gen for things like world size, enemies on screen etc? That doesn't mean awesome games can't exist on it.
There was new evidence that some devs are trying to drop the requirement and develop for Series X only. That was what's new even if it is just sentiment. Why not discuss it?
People have explained already that Series S requires optimisation, a lot more work, and the memory dictates what devs do the entire gen. Not in a podcast but comments by Remedy, id devs, riftbreaker devs, etc. The problem is that a bunch of angry fans tend to throw tomatoes in their rage at hearing things like this.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
"A lot more work" for the series S seems to range from 20 minutes to forever. Honestly, most developers seem to tackle whatever issues they have without much fuss, this whole thread is clickbait.
They don't but the ones who do have 'much fuss' are silenced by people calling them lying lazy untalented hacks or whatever who make crap games. They're not allowed to make a fuss it seems.
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THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
You can tell by the specs alone that the challenge to get a game to run on series S decently isn't that demanding. Much easier than say an xbox one or a ps4, or even minimum pc specs. Yet somehow that's being done magically without complaint?
Klosshufvud
Member
You can stop with this shit already. Don't you ever tire?
I'm not sure how that would be achieved. The demo was 24fps during cutscenes and 30fps during gameplay on Series X/PS5. Whatever optimisation they can do to achieve 60fps on XSX would apply to XSS too. That demo ran fine on XSS anyway with the extra help that MS provided to make it run decently on it.
much easier than a PS4 and XB1, but those aren't mandatory and you can set your own min spec for everything including memory. What is there to complain about? As a dev you can't be complaining about developing for XB1/PS4 when you've chosen to do it.
you bring up crossgen. A lot of people would have no problem agreeing that crossgen hardware is a burden for this gen but somehow can't bring themselves to say the same for a console that's extending into this gen.
Do you? Why do you keep replying to me by saying nothing of value.
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Klosshufvud
Member
This is rich coming from a liar saying how MS certification does not allow 720p 20 fps games or how devs are being sent death threats for twitter posts (not the fact that it's more likely their bosses told them to shut up). I have no idea what your problem is and I have no intention finding out, only that your psychotic rants are a tiresome read. Of all the things in games to whine about, This is the useless hill you choose to die on.
Not even gonna bother debunking all the dumb shit you've said about the Matrix demo too. Completely embarrassing conclusions and assumptions just because the demo ran on XBS.
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Still at it with the specific values? Where did I mention death threats at all, are you mixing me up with someone else? I have no idea what mental issue you have or why you misconstrue things but it appears I'm not the one who's psychotic here.
Not quite actually , but there are many who got fooled by the propaganda cause you can't easily break a common sense logic.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It is not without complaints, but it is a massive user base you will be able to leave behind at some point.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
While ps4 and xbox one are not mandatory, there have been tons of games developed for them with no issue. I'm certain that most of the developers working those were told by the bosses to make it work, so they did, even if they didn't want to. Same with minimum pc spec. It's not really "optional" if you need it for the game to sell enough, so basically mandatory in a lot of cases.
Cross gen hardware may be a "burden" but it's blown way put of proportion. Ps5 and series X aren't the quantum leap some would suggest, Gt7 and God of war wouldn't look twice as good without ps4 versions, were talking 10% here. Forza 5 wouldn't look twice as good with no pc and series s versions, it would oy be minimally better.
Bottom line, a mountain out of a molehill with the hardware we have.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
They can leave behind series S once series Z launches in 2027. If they want, they may not want to if ms has sold 20 or 30 million......