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Did the Super Nintendo actually win the 16-Bit war?

Did the SNES beat out Blast Processing?

  • No, Sega moved on to the Saturn.

    Votes: 69 16.0%
  • Yes, the SNES outperformed the Genesis commercially.

    Votes: 361 84.0%

  • Total voters
    430

shiru

Banned
A game like Eternal Champions is a much better example of what the MegaDrive can do. It uses the higher resolution, makes some effort with colors (although uses a lot of dithering) and has much bigger sprites. All while maintaining smooth animation and gameplay.
Less fighters, stages and far less voice samples than SFII. It also had a larger rom. Storage was the number one reason for the smaller sprites on console ports of arcade games. Snes sprites were also more restricted by the 8:7 aspect ratio, since they would look horizontally stretched on a 4:3 display as the resolution dependent viewport would be cropped on each side.
 
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cireza

Member
Less fighters, stages and far less voice samples than SFII. It also had a larger rom.
That's precisely why characters and backgrounds were much more detailed in Eternal Champions, as well as bigger characters, and represented much better the capabilities of the MegaDrive.

Capcom was super bad at compressing audio as well. They wasted huge amount of ROM space because of this.

Some details here :


These issues have been patched by community, by the way.
 
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It's a legitimate answer. Here's The Genesis on life support:

sm-SEGA-cd-2-Genesis-1-32X-Front-gametrog.jpg

Its pathetic. The SNES needed extra chips in carts almost from day one and if not. For the mess up with SONY the SNES would have had its CD Dribe Add On to go along with it's Satelliteaview and Super Gameboy Add one.

The less said about the 32X the better mind LOL
 

cireza

Member
Its pathetic. The SNES needed extra chips in carts almost from day one and if not. For the mess up with SONY the SNES would have had its CD Dribe Add On to go along with it's Satelliteaview and Super Gameboy Add one.

The less said about the 32X the better mind LOL
The Mega-CD is awesome by the way. Fantastic add-on and great hardware embedded, which led to many great games. SEGA really new their stuff back then. It was a great complementary offer next to the MegaDrive, with a big focus on content and quality soundtracks. It was certainly not making MegaDrive useless nor deprecated.
 
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shiru

Banned
That's precisely why characters and backgrounds were much more detailed in Eternal Champions, as well as bigger characters, and represented much better the capabilities of the MegaDrive.

Capcom was super bad at compressing audio as well. They wasted huge amount of ROM space because of this.

Some details here :


These issues have been patched by community, by the way.
That's my point, larger characters in EC had more to do with storage space than anything, even though the Genesis could display slighty more sprite tiles per scanline than the snes. SFII would still be limited by the 16Mb roms Capcom used, so a direct Genesis port would likely only increase character resolution slightly on the x axis, like MKII, since it wouldn't have to compensate for the aspect ratio.
 
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Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Yuzo Koshiro will create a brand new genesis game...

The system keeps receiving a load of AAA games through time:

Paprium crushed 95% of Beat them ups on the genesis (there is still SOR2) and 100% of Suoer Famicom's production...


Poor Nintendogs. 😁

We'll pray for you 😘
#consolewars2022
 
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Kokoloko85

Member
Nope...

SEGA sold more consoles in Europe, and in the US they were ahead most of the time, until they moved to Saturn.

Nintendo lost a ton of market share with SNES, this can only be seen as a failure in my opinion.

This.
Those days people were more interested in whats popular, not units sold worldwide and in US/Europe it was Sega.

Also Saturn went on to outsell the N64 In Japan.

I love both consoles
 

Neo_GAF

Banned
i remember that in different countries SNES/MD were different. while in germany sega wasnt a really big thing in the 90s, a cousin of mine bought a new mega drive in 95 in brazil, he also told me the master system also had games coming out until 2000s?
so not sure... i would say the developed countries were more into nintendo than into sega in the late 90s or even more into playstation...
 

cireza

Member
i remember that in different countries SNES/MD were different. while in germany sega wasnt a really big thing in the 90s, a cousin of mine bought a new mega drive in 95 in brazil, he also told me the master system also had games coming out until 2000s?
so not sure... i would say the developed countries were more into nintendo than into sega in the late 90s or even more into playstation...
Germany was the exception. Everywhere else in Europe SEGA was leading. And I think that this was largely deserved. They did some great job at releasing games in Europe while Nintendo and other third parties weren't doing much at all.
 
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fart town usa

Gold Member
Good question. SNES sold more but everyone who was a kid back then knows that there were just as many Genesis diehards on the playground as there were SNES diehards.

Sega went down in flames due to some of the worst business decisions in gaming history. I wouldn't necessarily say that SNES won the 16-bit era cause it was Sony during the 32-bit years that drove that final nail in Sega's coffin.
 
This is shocking to learn, as these are often seen as the halcyon days.

It makes sense when you consider that most of the industry biggest games were pretty much derivatives of the same games that people were already playing for years, and there weren't many disrupters to make up for that. Not to mention rising prices, a lot of shovelware, while cartridge prices were still high. It also explains the lowering software sales in certain countries like the US over where they were going before. Many best selling game lists for SNES and Genesis are worldwide when you look at the numbers, so you have to consider that despite the Sonic vs. Mario and Sega attitude stuff, and the perception kids at the time had growing up with those consoles, the industry was actually on a downswing.

NES created a bubble that was barely holding things up late 80's through Nintendo's policies, and as soon as that freed up and several developers ran elsewhere not wanting to take it anymore, you had competition explode, but you were still having very similar games produced on the console-side of the industry with better graphics. There were some big games in other genres that sold well but many earlier best selling games on Genesis and SNES had sequels or follow-ups that didn't drive software or hardware profits the way they should have.

When Nintendo started porting over late hit arcade titles, and tried to sell 3D hard on the SNES, SNES sales picked back up and helped the console last longer in the market, while Sega was already having problems selling Genesis consoles and several of their attempts to do the same as SNES were either killed by themselves early before any results manifested, or they wouldn't continue selling after the launch window. Which led to a $61 million loss just in the US of unsold inventory (as posted in the Sega 1996 thread).

I couldn't find the archives of the WW drop form iirc $11 billion to $5.3 billon or some other decimal and the google newspaper link is dead, I did however find some articles about the US market dropping during that time.

Industry was at $6.5 billion in US sometime in 1993 (they used numbers reported a few months earlier in the year)
https://fortune.com/1993/12/27/videogames-serious-fun/
They’re playing a harmless little videogame, the felicitously named Lethal Enforcers, a $70 gem that runs on your kids’ Sega CD system. While this may not be your idea of age-appropriate fun, it has corporate America all excited. Why? Because boys like these form the heart of the videogame industry (so far, girls aren’t a factor). And videogames are a $6.5-billion-a-year U.S. business—bigger than the movie box office take—that’s on the cutting edge of both technology and investment in the so-called electronic information highway.

Dropped to $2.5 billion end of 1995, and it actually dropped to ~$2 billon early 1996 but I can't find the old NPD archives anymore (they were more relevant on gaming reporting at that point) which I assume is intentional by NPD themselves, so you're looking at a $4-4.5 billion loss in either case quickly, which numerically, is the biggest drop in console gaming history still so far (PC was separate then).


By mid-1997 gaming industry was at $7 billion in less than two years.
https://www.proquest.com/openview/6e486abf952d013cdb810e91b6dbfdd3/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=2368
Video games represent a $7 billion business in the United States, exceeding the $5 billion annual box office sales of the Hollywood movie industry.

It really goes to show that console gen was filled with competition and less panic about an imploding monopoly which analysts were concerned about at the end of the 80's and start of the 90's, but it was replaced with a declining interest, less consumers spending, and growth of computer entertainment software (which is where the old 'consoles may be dead soon' fearmongering myth came from back in the 90's).

However, people didn't notice this because of the hyperbolic press and mag coverage, the heavy spending on marketing by software and console companies, the focus on socializing and merchandising, and so on. So like with many gamers in previous downswings, despite this one numerically being the worst in the industries history, many people didn't notice unless they were older who were tracking the industry or read the right sources, or if you were financially involved in the industry through a company, as an investor, or who was involved in the toy-industry. Some stores cutting inventory or slowing down game releases could give some signals in some parts of the country (or world) too, but that was minor.

This slump happened outside the US too, though not as large since there wasn't as many consoles and games being sold to have such a large decline. Europe didn't get hurt too bad because they still had an active microcomputer market with a rising Genesis console, though video game consoles were still not that big there yet, by the time those computers declined, and PC took over, the PSX/Sat was out followed by the N64 shortly after, at the same time as PC gaming rose in Europe (outside the UK) replacing those micros. So the dip wasn't that bad.

Japan started out slow because of the high costs of the new consoles at first, but picked up again once the prices came down, with cheaper CD games alone compared to cartridge consoles being one of the major drivers. Along with companies taking advantage of arcade hype with early ports of popular games since in Japan the PSX/SAT came out a year earlier than other regions. But the worldwide gaming market took a pummeling, and the US faced the worst of it. $4-4.5 billion drop in a what was a peak $6.5 billion industry (US) as quick as it occurred was not a small thing despite the distractions.

Luckily the 3D consoles from the discounted 3DO, Sony's $299, which later forced Sega to do the same, and the N64's $250 just as the US market was moving toward primarily 3D game interest across consumers (which ended up saving the N64 in general), along with many console moving and revenue generating hit games from 1996-1997, got the industry back on track.

Otherwise, all those PC = Consoles dead claims may have had some merit back then, and consoles may have been a niche. Until they started being walled garden PC's, which is what ended up happening anyway, go figure.

This.
Those days people were more interested in whats popular, not units sold worldwide and in US/Europe it was Sega.

Also Saturn went on to outsell the N64 In Japan.

I love both consoles

Sega lost the US later. They couldn't figure out how to keep the interest going for the Genesis despite them thinking they were (hence the unsold inventory) but they did impress me with how they went from a struggling Master System to being ahead of Nintendo without half the software sales for as long as they did. Sonic really helped out that consoles out there, though when it started moving less consoles with the sequels Sega couldn't find something to replace it with, or third parties to replace it with.

Sega should have tried to buy Midway as an exclusive third party, that's probably the only way they could have gotten out of it. Compared to Nintendo with SNES, Sega made very few exclusive deals with third parties even when they had the money too during their success. what they did use the money for were not big sellers, or for marketing deals but not timed or full exclusivity which I think was their biggest mistake
 
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Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Modern days gaming on Genesis:






Modern days (SUPER RARE) gaming on Snes:



🤡
 
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Thaedolus

Gold Member
Wait- the overall sales don’t count because SEGA moved on to Saturn but it doesn’t matter that the SNES had a later start? And could supplement its power with SuperFX and the like without the need for expensive addons with limited support?

Huh.

I was glad I had a best friend with a Genesis so I got to play both a lot growing up but I would never make a trade of my SNES for a Genesis.
 
Wait- the overall sales don’t count because SEGA moved on to Saturn but it doesn’t matter that the SNES had a later start? And could supplement its power with SuperFX and the like without the need for expensive addons with limited support?

Huh.

I was glad I had a best friend with a Genesis so I got to play both a lot growing up but I would never make a trade of my SNES for a Genesis.

What's curious about this is Sega lost to the SNES in the US it's strongest market before 'moving on' to the Saturn. In fact, they were trying to extend the life of the Genesis in the US specifically, and most of the members I would guess who are claiming they moved on, are likely US citizens mostly.
 

yurinka

Member
Yes, in this thread there are some fictional stories but Super Nintendo won the 16 bits console war.

It sold over 50M copies worldwide while MD sold over 30M copies, maybe even slightly above 35M.
 
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JMarcell

Member
SNES won thanks to a ridiculously poor reception of Genesis in Japan. SEGA 16-bit console has sold the equivalent of around 10% of SNES sales on that country.
 
Sega should have tried to buy Midway as an exclusive third party, that's probably the only way they could have gotten out of it. Compared to Nintendo with SNES, Sega made very few exclusive deals with third parties even when they had the money too during their success. what they did use the money for were not big sellers, or for marketing deals but not timed or full exclusivity which I think was their biggest mistake

That's kind of because they couldn't. Remember, Nintendo had VERY restrictive licensing agreements with 3P publishers during the NES era, that's why they were found guilty of antitrust in the US courts...in 1990 (might've been 1991). But that ruling only pertained to the American market.

During NES/Famicom era, Nintendo prevented 3P devs & pubs from making games for other platforms, and limited the amount of games they could release annually for their own console. These strict agreements didn't just suddenly go away with the Genesis/SNES era, it's why companies like Namco had to make Namcot, to get around terms legally agreed to prior, and make games for Sega consoles.

Effectively, Sega were simply not able to make deals with 3P devs (especially Japanese ones) the way they should've, due to earlier restrictive licensing agreements those companies had signed with Nintendo and the fact that antitrust rulings against Nintendo only went as far as the American market (AFAIK). Sega took deals with whom they could, and often licensed a LOT of 3P games to reprogram and distribute themselves on the MegaDrive. It's only from 1992 when more 3P, particularly Japanese ones, started giving the platform more support and that is specifically in relation to the Western markets partly thanks to the opportunities the antitrust ruling against Nintendo in the American market afforded companies like Sega going forward.

You also have to consider preference habits that those restrictive licensing agreements would have enabled with 3P developers. Even when things got better for them in terms of other platforms they could make games for, they had already built up their customer base on Nintendo, and grown an affinity for Nintendo hardware designs. And it's not like Sega was flush with cash; money alone would not have been enough to convince a lot of devs to learn Sega's hardware designs and pay the associated licensing fees & cart production costs, especially if they were still focused on Nintendo. Console architectures and ecosystems were vastly more esoteric & exclusive back then compared to modern times.

Also, I can already see how some people may try equivalating this 'saga' of Nintendo/Sega WRT restrictive licensing agreements, to Sony/Microsoft of today with vaguely similar things, especially considering claims Microsoft have made WRT Sony preventing publishers from supporting GamePass. But any similarities, IMHO, are surface-level at best. If Sony were actually guilty of these things, they would have been taken to court ages ago because that's already happened with Nintendo back when the industry was much smaller and less mainstream. The truth (at least based on current info and common sense) is that Sony only do such a thing with games they already have co-marketing agreements with, or have helped in co-funding & co-development. Which makes perfect sense; why allow a rival's platform/service to get Easy Mode benefits off work they had no involvement in marketing, funding, or developing?

What's curious about this is Sega lost to the SNES in the US it's strongest market before 'moving on' to the Saturn. In fact, they were trying to extend the life of the Genesis in the US specifically, and most of the members I would guess who are claiming they moved on, are likely US citizens mostly.

Technically, the SNES didn't begin pulling away in US until the Holiday 1994 season and, yes, that's technically before the Saturn's release (both the planned September 1995 launch and the surprise May 1995 release).

But also consider it this way: by Christmas 1994 the Genesis was already on the American market for five years. That was the typical console lifecycle of the time period, so there may have already been the consideration even at SOA that Genesis sales were going to begin winding down regardless, even if the 32X performed up to expectations. The goal was always to extend the Genesis's commercial life but that does NOT inherently mean the intent to continue outselling the SNES. We have perspectives that may want to paint it that way going off public accounts and magazine records, or just living off the playground console wars idea of the time or the glamorization of the 16-bit console wars market, but the actual money handlers and business folks behind the scenes might've had different targets that did not revolve around simply outselling the SNES by that point in the Genesis' lifecycle.

And, that doesn't even factor SOJ, who by that same holiday period, had moved on to the Saturn. Since SOJ were the division really calling the shots, for them five years of Genesis in the American market was probably enough, especially considering that was SOA's story, not SOJ's. SOJ didn't care anymore if SNES were to start outselling Genesis in America going forward; they were already focused on moving forward with the Saturn, and by virtue they were ready for SOJ and SOE to do the same.

So yes, maybe SNES starting to outsell Genesis prior to Saturn is a curiosity, but I don't think it's reflective of much other than shifting priorities BTS at Sega, particularly with the Japanese branch. For all we know, we are the ones who continue to assign some arbitrary goal to Sega from that late-1994 and onward period that anything short of outselling SNES in the American market would be internally considered as a recognition of failure.
 
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Poplin

Member
its a geo story. in Europe Genesis actually won the 16 bit war and outsold the the Snes. In Japan and NA the SNES won. Global totals the snes won, but europeans have an alt history view of the era
 

cireza

Member
Yes, in this thread there are some fictional stories but Super Nintendo won the 16 bits console war.

It sold over 50M copies worldwide while MD sold over 30M copies, maybe even slightly above 35M.
MegaDrive selling more in Europe is not fictional. Check your facts.
MegaDrive was very close to SNES in the US and they moved on to the Saturn in 95.
MegaDrive numbers are incomplete as well.

As stated before, Nintendo lost close to 50% of its market share to SEGA. What an incredible win !

And they had many advantages, having locked third party relationships from the NES era. It took SEGA tremendous efforts to gain some ground on this topic, like having to redevelop themselves Capcom games etc... Konami and Capcom only arrived in 1993.

Definitely a huge fail from Nintendo overall. SEGA deserved the success.
 
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anothertech

Member
Yuzo Koshiro will create a brand new genesis game...

The system keeps receiving a load of AAA games through time:

Paprium crushed 95% of Beat them ups on the genesis (there is still SOR2) and 100% of Suoer Famicom's production...


Poor Nintendogs. 😁

We'll pray for you 😘
#consolewars2022
750588.jpg
 

Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
Yes, in this thread there are some fictional stories but Super Nintendo won the 16 bits console war.

It sold over 50M copies worldwide while MD sold over 30M copies, maybe even slightly above 35M.
A lot of JVC, Samsung (etc) Megadrive were not counted...

Ten years ago, it was more like 40 millions.
Now with AT or various licensed models (they can run real Megadrive cartridges), it's 42-47 millions and it's growing because video game market is growing and people want retro consoles. (Many persons bought AT consoles thinking it was Sega Megadrive mini 😅).

For instance, there were 2 millions megadrive in Brazil in 2009, in 2012 more than 3 millions.


@nintendogs
Sorry, megadrive fans have tons of new AAA games every years... You have almost nothing 🥳

You only have cold numbers victory. 🙃

Oh wait, only 49 millions units for the Snes ?
Licensed Genesis sales will finish the job sooner or later 😘
 

Hero_Select

Member
A lot of JVC, Samsung (etc) Megadrive were not counted...

Ten years ago, it was more like 40 millions.
Now with AT or various licensed models (they can run real Megadrive cartridges), it's 42-47 millions and it's growing because video game market is growing and people want retro consoles. (Many persons bought AT consoles thinking it was Sega Megadrive mini 😅).

For instance, there were 2 millions megadrive in Brazil in 2009, in 2012 more than 3 millions.


@nintendogs
Sorry, megadrive fans have tons of new AAA games every years... You have almost nothing 🥳

You only have cold numbers victory. 🙃

Oh wait, only 49 millions units for the Snes ?
Licensed Genesis sales will finish the job sooner or later 😘
Does it feel bad that noone is falling for the bait you keep repeating? lmfao
 

Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
MegaDrive selling more in Europe is not fictional. Check your facts.
MegaDrive was very close to SNES in the US and they moved on to the Saturn in 95.
MegaDrive numbers are incomplete as well.

As stated before, Nintendo lost close to 50% of its market share to SEGA. What an incredible win !

And they had many advantages, having locked third party relationships from the NES era. It took SEGA tremendous efforts to gain some ground on this topic, like having to redevelop themselves Capcom games etc... Konami and Capcom only arrived in 1993.

Definitely a huge fail from Nintendo overall. SEGA deserved the success.
Plus, Nintendo was lucky Sony crushed Sega for them:

During 16 bits war, publishers like Capcom were mainly developping for Nintendo, with the 32 bits it was reversed. SEGA had a load of awesome Capcom fighters, Nintendo had shit...

With CD and Fast Loading Cartridges, Sega would have been much more armed to fight Nintendo.(more developers supported the Saturn than the Genesis)
 

Romulus

Member
They probably did. But as stated, having played quite a bit of fighting games on SNES, we are closer to the limit of the system with SFII than we are on MegaDrive with the same game...

MegaDrive suffered from both having Capcom handling the port + the fact that it was a port from the SNES version rather than a brand new port from the arcade. So it also suffered the limitations that come with the SNES (resolution, sprite size), and that would have not existed if it had been a direct port.

SFII SNES :
136964--street-fighter-ii-turbo.png


SFII MegaDrive :
il_fullxfull.3236126556_800z.jpg


Eternal Champions on MegaDrive :
eternal-screen7.gif


Even with still pictures, the difference is pretty obvious. Another example...

Mortal Kombat II SNES :
92002-mortal-kombat-ii-snes-screenshot-the-ghosts-are-watching.gif


Mortal Kombat II MegaDrive :
29.gif


Bigger sprites, higher resolution.

The MegaDrive had no reason to suffer smaller resolution and sprites. The console was able to push 25% more pixels and handle more/bigger sprites at once.


You played quite a bit of fighters on the SNES from who though? Nintendo's first party devs were making Mario, Zelda, and the like. You used Eternal Champions as a baseline for the comparison, which was made by a top-tier first party developer, Sega, and was exclusive. Sega had a long track record of great results. SNES had no one with their experience and track record in the genre. The only fair comparison would be Sega making the same game on SNES from the ground up, or a different one.
 

yurinka

Member
MegaDrive selling more in Europe is not fictional. Check your facts.
MegaDrive was very close to SNES in the US and they moved on to the Saturn in 95.
MegaDrive numbers are incomplete as well.
Facts are -as far as I know- that Sega claimed that MD sold worldwide 30.75M versus 49.1M SNES sold worldwide according to Nintendo.

In Japan SNES sold 17.17M, PC Engine 8M and MD 3.59M. So 13.58M of that 18.35M difference are from Japan. So SNES sold 4.77M more than MD in other regions of the world, mostly in USA and EU.

According to Nintendo, SNES sold 23.35M in the Americas and MD 19M according to Sega. So this means 4.35M of that 4.77M difference are from the Americas.

Meaning that SNES sold 420K more than MD in the rest of the world (which includes EU), where according to Nintendo SNES sold 8.58M.

So SNES sold more than MD worlwide, in Japan, in America and the rest of the world (which includes EU) and when they were closer was Europe + rest of the world.

Brazil is an exception where MD sold better thanks to Tectoy, who claimed to have sold 3M MD until 2012. Majesco claimed to have sold also 1.5M MDs. A good part of these consoles pretty likely are included in the 30.75M listed by Sega, but at least part of the Tectoy aren't.

So being generous and assuming that none of the Tectoy and Majesco units weren't counted by Sega it would be 35.25M, reducing the difference to being 13.85M behind SNES.
 
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That's kind of because they couldn't. Remember, Nintendo had VERY restrictive licensing agreements with 3P publishers during the NES era, that's why they were found guilty of antitrust in the US courts...in 1990 (might've been 1991). But that ruling only pertained to the American market.

We are talking about the Genesis not SMS, even in japan NEC broke through by the late 80's.

These strict agreements didn't just suddenly go away with the Genesis/SNES era,

It did for the most part by the time the Genesis was viable,.

Effectively, Sega were simply not able to make deals with 3P devs (especially Japanese ones) the way they should've,

Nonsense, they could have done it from 1992-1995 easily and didn't. When Nintendo wasn't even a problem, they had marketing deals with multiplats they could have easily made timed or full exclusive. With lack of western dev interest, Sega could have gotten more western devs to make games for it for them, or to port games from PC more not on the SNES, with the spotlight marketing and they didn't.

Capcom is an example of a company that was freed and I would say most if not the plurality of Capcom games with the Capcom logo released on the Genesis (unlike the SNES) were made/produced by Sega. Many of those had nothing to do with any restrictions because Capcom still did make games for the Genesis just not as many as they made directly for the SNES which can be attributed to a lack of Sega trying to incentivize them compared to Nintendo, and Sega's poor performance in Japan.

The issue is Sega clearly wasn't thinking about doing the right moves to win. They had success and didn't know how to leverage it, and made a lot of moves they should not have made, or should have made earlier too late.

But also consider it this way: by Christmas 1994 the Genesis was already on the American market for five years.

This is a flawed view of things, because Sega wasn't really relevant in the US market or known with the Genesis until 1990. It took off and then as you just agreed to, had already lost to the SNES before "moving on" to the Saturn like people claim. They were already having problems keeping up previous momentum BEFORE that even happened. I would say late 1993 is when the start of the decline, maybe earlier a bit, happened because that's also when third parties had 1 million_ sellers coming out and Sonic was declining more in exchange. Then the third parties declines and they weren't able to move as many consoles.

The goal was always to extend the Genesis's commercial life but that does NOT inherently mean the intent to continue outselling the SNES.

No one said it was, where did this come from?

And, that doesn't even factor SOJ, who by that same holiday period, had moved on to the Saturn. Since SOJ were the division really calling the shots, for them five years of Genesis in the American market was probably enough, especially considering that was SOA's story, not SOJ's. SOJ didn't care anymore if SNES were to start outselling Genesis in America going forward; they were already focused on moving forward with the Saturn, and by virtue they were ready for SOJ and SOE to do the same.

Sega of Japan was trying to position the Mega Drive as a entry level consoles, and trying to compete with NEC with the Sega CD until they gave up on it, and when they did, they brought the 32X over to Japan. This "moving on" from the genesis thing is wrong both in the US and Japan. But the claim was for the western market not Japan, so this is zig zagging around the issue.

The claim people were making is that Sega was winning and then "moved on to the Saturn" which didn't actually happen int he context they make the claim.

So yes, maybe SNES starting to outsell Genesis prior to Saturn is a curiosity, but I don't think it's reflective of much other than shifting priorities BTS at Sega, particularly with the Japanese branch. For all we know, we are the ones who continue to assign some arbitrary goal to Sega from that late-1994 and onward period that anything short of outselling SNES in the American market would be internally considered as a recognition of failure.

I think you're thinking of other responses in the thread and mixing them with mine by quoting me, because I never made the argument like some others have here that there was any arbitrary goal.
 

yurinka

Member
A lot of JVC, Samsung (etc) Megadrive were not counted...

Ten years ago, it was more like 40 millions.
Now with AT or various licensed models (they can run real Megadrive cartridges), it's 42-47 millions and it's growing because video game market is growing and people want retro consoles. (Many persons bought AT consoles thinking it was Sega Megadrive mini 😅).

For instance, there were 2 millions megadrive in Brazil in 2009, in 2012 more than 3 millions.
Nothing leads to think that when Sega reported the MD sold didn't include the units they licensed to other brands like most of the ones you mention for USA or Brazil.

Being very generous with the Brazilian units sold by Tec Toy when Sega stopped counting when Sega stopped making them and also adding there unofficial clones and even the Nomad is when people may estimate around 35M or slightly above. And again, this is being very generous and counting even unofficial clones, which were aren't counting for SNES. Considering 40M or even above is pure fantasy.

Regarding modern retro consoles, which I think shouldn't be counted, basically all the ones who run MD also run SNES. And well, the official SNES Mini also sold more than the MD mini. So if counting modern consoles the distance between SNES and MD would be even higher in favor of SNES.
 
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With CD and Fast Loading Cartridges, Sega would have been much more armed to fight Nintendo.(more developers supported the Saturn than the Genesis)

Sony didn't do anything to crush Sega, Sega was at least in the US, the number 1 game company at the start of 1996 and their Saturn was competitive with the PSX. And where would Sega being CD benefit it without Sony when almost all their mistakes and poor spending decisions had nothing to do with Sony? Nor their gaming library? N64 was literally saved by the US, Sega didn't have the right library to compete with that and were coming off late Genesis mismanagement and third-party issues, which would 3D wise put it in a similar position as Nintendo, if not worse if Sony wasn't around. Capcom games that weren't RE weren't going to be moving many saturns.

In japan? N64 already proved now that it would still compete. Currently in Japan the N64 almost caught up despite the Saturn having a two year head start a hyped up first year even leading the PSX until Sony came back to peoples surprise very early on, and while having many of the same games as Sony, people weren't buying those games for the Saturn because Sega wasn't pushing those games out in the spotlight like Sony was that were getting Japanese gamers to buy their consoles. They prioritized gaming coverage and marketing to titles that were not as appealing and made them more common. If FF7 was multiplat I bet Sega would have pushed Grandia, or FP Panzer over it in mindshare and marketing.

Otherwise there would have been no reason for Sega sales to fall flat so hard and for the N64 to even come close to catching up. Sega also made some other odd decisions in Japan in 1997 but that's another story. SOJ dropped the ball, even if Sony still winds, Sega should have hit 10 million sold easily.

MegaDrive was very close to SNES in the US and they moved on to the Saturn in 95.

They lost in the US before the Saturn was even a factor, they were already about to be passed before the 32X was even announced. You can't just say "they were winning, took the win, and then moved on to the next consoles" when that's not what happened.

And well, the official SNES Mini also sold more than the MD mini. So if counting modern consoles the distance between SNES and MD would be even higher in favor of SNES.
To be fair, with how Nintendo's policies with their older games worked to nickel and dime people, and often trying to limit rereleasing, it makes sense why the SNES mini sold more than the MD mini, or the MD mini before that, or the plug and plays before those, or the... you get the point.

Sega had released many products, or licensed many products, not to mention game collections, with a lot of the same overlapping games for years by the time the MD Mini came out.

When you have gamers overexposed like that, you have a cap to how many Mini's or future gaming compilations or other built-in game devices you can sell. Because you can play those games several different ways already and for many gamers they probably already had.

I would only see a Dreamcast Mini (and maaayyybbeeee Saturn) selling close to the level of the SNES mini or more. Or a collection with many games from various consoles on a mini, or compilation, including rom their portable consoles, DC, Sat, SMS, CD, 32X, etc, because in all of those scenarios it breaks up the the staleness.

When SNES mini released that was the first time in a long time many people could play officially games they couldn't easily play before, or some that Nintendo overcharged for, or had on the Wii VC. Now you had a bunch of games all on one device.
 
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tkscz

Member
The interesting thing wasn't which console won, but how interesting the 16-bit console war even was.

It's always the one people go back to and not just those of us who were there.

I've seen articles and youtube videos talk about the 16-bit console wars who were too young or not even born when it happened.

But what other console war would have two versions of the same game on different consoles?

What other generation had so many comparable games in every genre?

What other generation could you get both consoles, double dip the same game but get two completely different experiences?

It's interesting to think about.
 

Trunx81

Member
It’s easy. The SNES had 16 bit. How much had the Genesis? Just: Do the math. Then you’ve got your winner!

Edit: If you don’t get the sarcasm: Both. Both are good. End the war.
 
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yurinka

Member
When SNES mini released that was the first time in a long time many people could play officially games they couldn't easily play before, or some that Nintendo overcharged for, or had on the Wii VC. Now you had a bunch of games all on one device.
Most of these games were re-reased on GBA or included digitally in the virtual console of many Nintendo consoles and portables.

I think most people don't buy Mini consoles to play them for more than 10 minutes. I think most buy them as collector items or to decorate their shelves.
 

cireza

Member
You played quite a bit of fighters on the SNES from who though? Nintendo's first party devs were making Mario, Zelda, and the like. You used Eternal Champions as a baseline for the comparison, which was made by a top-tier first party developer, Sega, and was exclusive. Sega had a long track record of great results. SNES had no one with their experience and track record in the genre. The only fair comparison would be Sega making the same game on SNES from the ground up, or a different one.
Come on, there were a lot of very competent developers on SNES. Best fighting game in my opinion is Hyper Dimension, but there are several other candidates such as Fatal Fury Special or Power Rangers The Fighting that pushed some interesting visuals (probably the most impressive one in my opinion, but comes at the cost of cropping the scene). Then you have Killer Instinct of course, and also the TMNT game from Konami (same as Power Rangers : cropped scene).

that Sega claimed that MD sold worldwide 30.75M
SEGA did not claim anything, sales numbers are taken from incomplete periods and not WW. But this was already discussed in the thread, so simply read it.
 
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But what other console war would have two versions of the same game on different consoles?

What other generation had so many comparable games in every genre?

What other generation could you get both consoles, double dip the same game but get two completely different experiences?

It's interesting to think about.

The console gen before it, the one before that, and also computers from the early 80's until the mid-90's.

I think people who were too young to be there are talking about it for the same reason they talk about other revised historical facts without having general gaming knowledge outside of what was told to them.

Ironically, one being the Saturn couldn't do 3D, which isn't true and there are still "expert' articles posting that. Or claim some games were only done in software or some other nonsense.

Most of these games were re-reased on GBA or included digitally in the virtual console of many Nintendo consoles and portables.

I think most people don't buy Mini consoles to play them for more than 10 minutes. I think most buy them as collector items or to decorate their shelves.

I think think the NES and SNES mini were literally brought by most to play the games on the list, the average users was complain about how they were handling releases before, or not wanting to be overcharged for individual games. I also belief if not mistaken Nintendo did a survey for one of the two, and then said something about consumer interest themselves.

But in either case, there's no hyperbole ins saying Sega way oversaturated releasing many of the same games in more accessible ways than Nintendo did across multiple platforms and gaming related devices, or compilations, in many cases at affordable prices. With that kind of exposure it's not surprise the MD mini didn't sell comparably tot he SNES mini.
 

Romulus

Member
Come on, there were a lot of very competent developers on SNES. Best fighting game in my opinion is Hyper Dimension, but there are several other candidates such as Fatal Fury Special or Power Rangers The Fighting that pushed some interesting visuals (probably the most impressive one in my opinion, but comes at the cost of cropping the scene). Then you have Killer Instinct of course, and also the TMNT game from Konami (same as Power Rangers : cropped scene).

I never said there weren't competent developers on SNES, my point is their top-tier devs were working in other genres. If we would have got an exclusive Nintendo fighter on SNES made from the ground up like Sega's Eternal Champions that might have been different and great for comparison. Better yet, a Sega game on SNES because they were the best. Killer Instinct is a port of a machine that had 30x the processing power, therefore almost a completely different vision entirely.
 
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Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I mean, SNES was so popular Capcom wanted to put Street Fighter Alpha 2 on it so everyone could play it despite next gen systems. Cool port as well, though it was probably rushed given the timing (and fan romhacks fix up its few issues like the loading, wish you could fix loading on PS/Sat, lol).
 
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SNES was ahead vs Genesis in the USA, I barely knew anyone that had a Genesis. SNES was more popular undeniably.
Maybe near the end, but in early 90s Genesis was king. I had went TG16 and when not many new games came out complemented it with a Genesis. (although tg16 had bangin games, espcially my favorite alien and devils crush, nuetopia, blazing lasers, legendary axe, bonk, ninja spirt, bonk, and AD&D Order of the griffon, for hu card notables).


I played the Genesis over at a friends house. This was before Sonic. When it had Altered Beast as a pack in. We played a ton of cool games and I was impressed.

Had all the road rash, Shining force, Sonics, eswat, mj moonwalker, streets of rage , golden Axe, etc....

Don't get me wrong Snes was great too, and I eventually got one of them too. Having a job in jr high delivering papers paid off. Zelda ltp, FF4/6, mario world, super star wars, fzero, donky cong country, star fox, super castlevania. All great.
It just didn't seem to have as many games I wanted to play outside of the RPGS and zelda. Sega had them as well though with 4 phatasy star games, shining force games and its own AD&D game.

It didn't help that I had a new 386 pc with svga card, sound card and cd-rom so I gave up on consoles until ps1 came out.

Looking back both SNES and Genesis were winners. TG16 was great in its first two years then bombed hard (thanks to hudson/nec bailing on USA, it apparently did great in Japan).

Neo Geo - that was for rich folks. Never seen one. $400 console and $200 games, nah. Way above what I could afford.
 
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Fat Frog

I advertised for Google Stadia
N64 was literally saved by the US, Sega didn't have the right library to compete with that
The Sega Saturn has 3 times the library of the Nintendo 64 with much more balance...

Of course, Sega did mistake before the playstation but you don't realize how Sega could have performed two years without the PSX (N64 arrived in 97 in the US):

- No Textured Tekken to humiliate raw poly Virtua Fighter in the eye of the mainstream gamers.

- No inferior Psygnosis blockbusters like Destruction on Saturn, it would have been temporary exclusive and impressive for most people.


A multiverse without the PSX would have meant 2 years full of exclusives and without rivals:

- Psygnosys AAA temporary exclusives for Sega (Destruction Derby)
- Tombraider temporary exclusive.
- A true opportunity for Sega Arcade Classics to shine on console (Virtua Fighter, Daytona, overlooked by many because less impressive than Tekken and Ridge Racer on PSX...VF2 impressed gamers though but it was a bit late for many people who already bought the Playstation).


What games are you talking about then ?
There are more racers on the Saturn than N64, there are enough Sport games (Sega + Visual Concepts who developed for the Saturn)
Fighters are ten times better on the Saturn.
FPS ? There are good games on the Saturn as well with the Lobotomy trinity : Power Slave, Duke Nukem, Quake...

Maybe 3D platformers, the Saturn is weak if you compare to Rare and Nintendo games.
For the rest there are enough genre on Saturn to seduce the US like they did with the Genesis...

Pob was Playstation did more or less the same with better graphics, better marketing and cheaper console.
That's it.
 
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S0ULZB0URNE

Member
It sold better and had more bangers.

Like a certain other company... SEGA never won a generation.

Genesis/MD rocked though.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
Well the sales figures speak for themselves....you didn't need a 32x add-on to experience pseudo 32 bit gaming, when you had the likes of Donkey Kong Country running without a Super FX chip....
 
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