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Microsoft really doesnt give a shit about pushing the medium forward. Their approach to winning the gen will reduce the quality of GAMES

Is Matt Damon right?


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EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Xbox officials are hopeful disk days are over and gamepass is ahead of the curve. Microsoft has a lot to overcome, Xbox and 360 felt more meaningful an American console for American people.
 
This is very naive.
it is only temporarily sustainable because mirosoft is throwing money at the devs.
The subs are 1$. If m$ stopped throwing money and sub was 20-40$, we would see Netflix situation

The gaming industry got to this massive point on normal pricing and releases model. Not on services model.
But you're also being naive. Whatever your opinion on subs, they're here. $70 games will have to compete against them and win or lose. Pouting doesn't stop it. Didnt prevent subs in every other media form.
 

Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
Giving access to day one blockbuster releases on a cheap subscription service in order to be a loss leader is not a sustainable strategy. It never was. A lot of us have been calling this out since day one.
When times were good sure, maybe. Now tough times have arrived, all of a sudden it's being squeezed and exposed.
Not sustainable, but yet, it's been said many times GP is sustainable right now, and it's the best game streaming service in the industry and still growing!
 

XXL

Member
Microsoft should have just re-released the Xbox 360.....Since most of the games people are listing (for reasons to buy a Series X) could be done on that.
 

Woopah

Member
Too little too late. Not enough to offset decline in overall market.

I am not getting enough exciting Japanese games anymore like I used to. Their game industry is not catering to me anymore.

I would call that failure on Sony/ Nintendo part. They were in position to shape it.
Its more to do with third parties that Sony/Nintendo.

Nintendo is growing in the Japanese market, but a lot of that growth is being offset by the decline of some key third parties (most noticeably Level 5, who imploded after trying to jump on the mobile bandwagon).

I don't think you can say that Nintendo lost to mobile in Japan when they are more successful now in the market than they ever have been.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Yet for you it's not a problem in GOW/R.

5ldp623.png


112ms on PS5 at 60Hz. It's even worse on PS4. Now here is Ragnarok on PS5.
SS9eXHz.png

The only way to get an input lag that isn't complete shit is playing the 120Hz mode on a 120Hz TV. Otherwise, the latency is brutal.

Yet you said this gem:

But hold up, maybe you play on a 120Hz TV at 120fps? Turns out it's not the case and here is another one of your beauties. Kratos is responsive with an input lag bordering on 200ms but Elden Ring is sluggish?

Another one.

30fps is fine and Kratos with a 200ms input lag at 30fps feels responsive but Elden Ring feels sluggish "no matter the system"? I'm seeing a trend here.

But there's more.


People don't notice the massive input lag and don't care apparently...except when it comes to non-Sony games, in that case, people suddenly care and 200ms of input delay is "snappy".


No, the camera doesn't go all over the place WTF are you on? But GOW with an over-the-shoulder camera for a fast-paced action game is fine lmao? Then the slow-ass turn when an enemy creeps up on you isn't bad either.

Of course, you disagree. I skimmed through your posts and you're 100% a Sony warrior and a shameless one at that.

I checked the input lag for Elden Ring and although I couldn't find an exact measurement, it is higher than Dark Souls and Sekiro by a significant degree. On next-gen consoles at least, it appears to be in the 70ms+ range which is high but for someone who's fine playing at 30fps and finds 150ms+ input delay responsive, this shouldn't be a complaint.

Don't pretend that you're trying to have an honest discussion. You're a console warrior.

Over and out.

Holy shit!

The Simpsons GIF
 

feynoob

Member
it is only temporarily sustainable because mirosoft is throwing money at the devs.
That is not how sustainable works. Look what that word means.

The subs are 1$. If m$ stopped throwing money and sub was 20-40$, we would see Netflix situation
So in your mind everyone is paying 1$ for gamepass?
I can't take you serious with that take.

The gaming industry got to this massive point on normal pricing and releases model. Not on services model.
Have you done any research on gaming industry?
And do you know how much devs would get from MS and Sony from Sub services?

You really need to do alot of research, because that is what you really need right now.
 

Aaron Olive

Member
I'm 35 hours in and put it down like 2 weeks ago and not touched it since. Big fan of the whole franchise and its the worst game out of all 8. Does it make it terrible, not at all..

..but as time has passed and I've realised...what is actually the driving factor to make me complete it...all this money they've paid for acting and motion capture and 35 hours in I have little idea or interest in what the story is. There's been a lot of words to say ragnarok is coming and the teenager is now chilling with the "enemy" ...oh no....is this going anywhere?

The actual games not good enough to make me go back.

Saying that, in between I've gone back to vampire survivors, apex legends, enjoying the hell out of high on life, even played some fortnite with my daughter and been binging darktide with my bros.

All massively more fun and engaging games than gow R.

I'd play gears 5, co op over gow r any day of the week. I'd even go revisit halo infinite with the co op...which is a plan we have for over Xmas.

And grounded, grounded has been more fun for me and my group of mates than gow could ever be.

MS innovates and drives some amazing games. Sony studios could only dream of making a game like grounded.
Yeah from what I’m reading multiplayer is more your style, GOW isn’t for you as you enjoy party games.
 

zzill3

Banned
This is very naive.
it is only temporarily sustainable because mirosoft is throwing money at the devs.
The subs are 1$. If m$ stopped throwing money and sub was 20-40$, we would see Netflix situation

The gaming industry got to this massive point on normal pricing and releases model. Not on services model.

Documents shown in the ABK takeover tell us MS made about $3 billion on gamepass per year. The $1 sub is an intro offer, but it’s clear most people stay subscribed after that.
Unless you believe gamepass has 3 billion subscribers?
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Yeah from what I’m reading multiplayer is more your style, GOW isn’t for you as you enjoy party games.

Not at all. It's just I've found myself going to more multiplayer games as that's what's been getting updates with actual fun game play and these story games just aren't up to scratch...or maybe I am so bored of them and I am looking for a serious shift in gaming.

Saying that I have been hooked on high on life and that's purely single player and I'm looking to jump to pentiment and xenoblade chronicles 3 and bayonetta 3 after high on life.

The multiplayer games are what I always do. I usually have one main single player game I'm playing through and the multiplayer, mainly apex, is my pallete cleanser and what I play with mates...but dark tide has popped up and is awesome.

Gow R just isn't that great or engaging imo.
 

Aaron Olive

Member
Not at all. It's just I've found myself going to more multiplayer games as that's what's been getting updates with actual fun game play and these story games just aren't up to scratch...or maybe I am so bored of them and I am looking for a serious shift in gaming.

Saying that I have been hooked on high on life and that's purely single player and I'm looking to jump to pentiment and xenoblade chronicles 3 and bayonetta 3 after high on life.

The multiplayer games are what I always do. I usually have one main single player game I'm playing through and the multiplayer, mainly apex, is my pallete cleanser and what I play with mates...but dark tide has popped up and is awesome.

Gow R just isn't that great or engaging imo.
I respect your opinion, if you get sidetracked in the game it can be a chore for some.
 

Gaiff

SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
I don't know why people attempt to engage with people like @Swift_Star who is just out to troll as he can 100% have his opinion on which is the best game ever made but if you don't agree with him you're the clown

GOW R was so great I can't bring myself to finish it, I am tired of GOW I guess

Guy is living in his own world.
He needs to go outside of console, and learn that people like different stuff, and that there are companies out there that make better games compared to Sony. And that gaming isn't only AAA output.

People on PC play crappy games that would get laughed here. But those games are a lot of fun and enjoyable to play them.
Yeah, I need to scope out the blatant trolls. I humored him with a response because I thought there was a genuine discussion to be had, but a quick look at his post history tells me exactly what kind of poster he is.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
My biggest issue with God of War Ragnarok is the title, because they don't shut up about Ragnarok and in the end it turns out to be one of those New Year's party where only 3 people show up and everybody is pretending to have fun, desperate for midnight to arrive to get out of there as fast as possible.
 

TonyK

Member
I'm sad to agree. It sounds catastrophic, conspiracy and even trolling, but for me it's obvious (I wish I'm wrong) that gamepass type of services will impact gaming in the same way streaming platforms have made movies a shit fest. Now I have four stream platforms (Netflix, HBO, Disney+ and Prime) and 99% of content is unwatchable for me. Amount of content is insane but quality, specially scripts, are worse than ever. That's my fear for gaming, that services like Gamepass will aim for quantity, not quality.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
I respect your opinion, if you get sidetracked in the game it can be a chore for some.

The side content is the best part of gow r in my opinion. Just let me and freya go around and complete missions with minimum voice acting and awesome content with some nice surprising rewards.

It's the main game that's failing to pull me through. I'll deffo get it completed though as I need to see it through for my love of the franchise.
 
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rofif

Banned
Documents shown in the ABK takeover tell us MS made about $3 billion on gamepass per year. The $1 sub is an intro offer, but it’s clear most people stay subscribed after that.
Unless you believe gamepass has 3 billion subscribers?
This was not profit. revenue if I remember...

anyway - people eat this shit up... They are talking away our value, games, ownership and we are happy to pay for all of it and take pants down ourselves. Seriously, what is happening?!
Physical will die soon, services will triumph... is that really what people want ?!
 
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Alan Wake

Member
Some valid points, but I don't know how much Sony is "pushing the medium forward" to be honest. They've kept their business model since the 1990's basically. God of War Ragnarök feels like a game I could've played in 1999. It's nothing wrong with it, it's perfectly fine. But it doesn't bring much new to the table.

If anything, Microsoft has pushed the medium forward. First with online (as well as some impressive hardware), now with services like Game Pass and cloud gaming. You can like it or not, but that's a fact. Now, regarding console exclusive AAA games they're still miles behind Sony. Without Game Pass Xbox would be completely dead to me, and Xbox has been my primary platform since 2002.
 
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Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
MS had plenty of time & infinity money to make at least 10 grate first party studios last 20 years, but they did shit.
Now they throw billions to make gamepass sustainable & if they don't win FTC case this maybe their end on gaming hardware department.
No. Just, no! What on earth makes you guys think if the ABK merger doesn't go through, they will suddenly pull out of the gaming sphere in any way? If anything, they'll go even harder for more developers. They've invested billions in studios and devs (23 studios so far) they've invested heavily in hardware, subscriptions, cloud etc. They aren't going to just pull out. Not a chance.
 
Is gaming more popular? Yeah it is, did games sell as well as Spider-Man when Spider-Man 1 and 2 came out on PS2? Also yes.

Again, even relative to the sales of other games Marvel's Spider-Man is massively more successful than Spider-Man 1 and Spider-Man 2 and those games were the height of Activision's sales performance.

Spider-Man was also heavily bundled. Just like some other games last gen that saw massive boosts in sales, like GoW2018 and Horizon. My PS4 Pro came with a copy of the game. If Spider-Man 2 was heavily bundled on PS2 it could have also sold a lot more than it did otherwise.

Either way you’re attributing the spur in popularity to the sales of the game when in reality the sales of the game were spurred by the massive increase in awareness by the MCU movies and the bundles.
 

Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
OP is also a full-on hypocrite. Nintendo isn't pushing the medium forward and Sony sure as fuck isn't. He's simply upset that Microsoft doesn't put out a bunch of third-person story driven games with high production values.

Redfall, Forza, and Starfield are their three big upcoming games and none are the kind OP likes so he throws a hissy fit and makes a stupid thread like this one which is pure console warrior bait and I seriously wonder why it's still up considering the amount of posters who have been banned for console warring.
Allllll dis!^^^
 
Yet for you it's not a problem in GOW/R.

5ldp623.png


112ms on PS5 at 60Hz. It's even worse on PS4. Now here is Ragnarok on PS5.
SS9eXHz.png

The only way to get an input lag that isn't complete shit is playing the 120Hz mode on a 120Hz TV. Otherwise, the latency is brutal.

Yet you said this gem:

But hold up, maybe you play on a 120Hz TV at 120fps? Turns out it's not the case and here is another one of your beauties. Kratos is responsive with an input lag bordering on 200ms but Elden Ring is sluggish?

Another one.

30fps is fine and Kratos with a 200ms input lag at 30fps feels responsive but Elden Ring feels sluggish "no matter the system"? I'm seeing a trend here.

But there's more.


People don't notice the massive input lag and don't care apparently...except when it comes to non-Sony games, in that case, people suddenly care and 200ms of input delay is "snappy".


No, the camera doesn't go all over the place WTF are you on? But GOW with an over-the-shoulder camera for a fast-paced action game is fine lmao? Then the slow-ass turn when an enemy creeps up on you isn't bad either.

Of course, you disagree. I skimmed through your posts and you're 100% a Sony warrior and a shameless one at that.

I checked the input lag for Elden Ring and although I couldn't find an exact measurement, it is higher than Dark Souls and Sekiro by a significant degree. On next-gen consoles at least, it appears to be in the 70ms+ range which is high but for someone who's fine playing at 30fps and finds 150ms+ input delay responsive, this shouldn't be a complaint.

Don't pretend that you're trying to have an honest discussion. You're a console warrior.

Over and out.
Florida Lead GIF
 
Some valid points, but I don't know how much Sony is "pushing the medium forward" to be honest. They've kept their business model since the 1990's basically. God of War Ragnarök feels like a game I could've played in 1999. It's nothing wrong with it, it's perfectly fine. But it doesn't bring much new to the table.

If anything, Microsoft has pushed the medium forward. First with online (as well as some impressive hardware), now with services like Game Pass and cloud gaming. You can like it or not, but that's a fact. Now, regarding console exclusive AAA games they're still miles behind Sony. Without Game Pass Xbox would be completely dead to me, and Xbox has been my primary platform since 2002.
100% agree I feel MS is pushing the medium forward more than anyone

People comparing gamepass to Netflix and honestly my wife and I have enjoyed many Netflix exclusive series

And people don't honestly think that the majority of gamepass subs are still just $1 do they?
 

Chukhopops

Member
Atrocious input lag, terrible camera, endless combo strings, artificial difficulty with bullet sponge enemies and cheap one hit kills. Elden ring has the worst combat by far from all of the souls games.
Translation: Where is my big red circle?? How am I supposed to know what to do if I don’t have a big yellow/red circle for 5 seconds telling me which button to press?

A reminder of what kind of players got issues with Elden Ring.
 

DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
This was not profit. revenue if I remember...

anyway - people eat this shit up... They are talking away our value, games, ownership and we are happy to pay for all of it and take pants down ourselves. Seriously, what is happening?!
Physical will die soon, services will triumph... is that really what people want ?!

Sony are pushing for physical to die as quickly as MS though. They want you to pay 70 dollars for a digital copy of a game you can't trade in and to kill the pre owned market more than MS.

Just go in a local second hand store like Cex in the UK and see how many copies of Sony first party games they have over any other game.

The nature of sonys games are one and done. Or in many cases not done at all for 75 percent of the audience.

Then all those copies sit second hand on shelves or are sold on ebay with no profit to sony.

Do you think every single one one of those customers wouldn't prefer spending 15 pounds a month to play the game and move onto the next?
 
If anything Sony is doing more damage to the medium with how much it pushed the cinematic linear approach through the past decade.
Imagine having this stupid hot cake, believing Sony is the evil guy, when:

dyJoXUd.jpg


ocjZfkG.jpg


lIo2jH8.jpg


u6TzyOh.jpg


I6eHZIK.jpg


TharIxJ.jpg


L9v4DtW.jpg



lTKam8G.jpg





GfzKOPw.jpg


tfrcDB4.jpg


07NaeN7.jpg


IOw7nlH.jpg


So on and so forth.

This industry and gamers have normalized the practice of:

Releasing broken, unfinished, unpolished games.

And we have all the shady design behinds MTXs.

So, sowrry...you take is so dumb that makes my brain hurts when there is actual shitty practices, that are bad for consumers and hurt the quality of the experience.
 
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yurinka

Member
Sony + Nintendo combined lost to mobile in Japan.

Says it all.
Well, mobile is bigger than consoles and PC worldwide, not only in Japan. Same goes with F2P, it's bigger than paid games worldwide.

But yes, Japan in particular they always had a bigger preference for portable/mobile/handheld gaming devices, I assume because compared to most countries they have long commutes, mostly do them in public transport, and on top of that have relatively small houses.

And on top of that Japan always had top tier mobile devices tech and games. As I remember, the Sharp 3D display tech of 3DS was used on Japanese mobile phones before using it on 3DS.
 
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rofif

Banned
Sony are pushing for physical to die as quickly as MS though. They want you to pay 70 dollars for a digital copy of a game you can't trade in and to kill the pre owned market more than MS.

Just go in a local second hand store like Cex in the UK and see how many copies of Sony first party games they have over any other game.

The nature of sonys games are one and done. Or in many cases not done at all for 75 percent of the audience.

Then all those copies sit second hand on shelves or are sold on ebay with no profit to sony.

Do you think every single one one of those customers wouldn't prefer spending 15 pounds a month to play the game and move onto the next?
I know. ps5 physical games almost do not exist in my area...
But when I put up Callisto Protocol for 40$ after finishing it (about 2 weeks after release), I sold it the same evening.
Physical might not be patched which is a shame but you own the disc. You/market control the price and what to do with the game. It's HUGE thing to give away for "I am too tired to change discs"
 
It's VR, it has been around for years. What does PSVR2 offer that counts as the next frontier? Better OLED screen? That literally just a spec upgrade. None of the announced games look any more revolutionary than Half Life: Alyx was.

Moving the industry forward dosen't happens overnight.

and it takes the entire Industry. Just look at electric car industry for example.

In VR....who is the only one out?...yep...MS.
 
This was not profit. revenue if I remember...

anyway - people eat this shit up... They are talking away our value, games, ownership and we are happy to pay for all of it and take pants down ourselves. Seriously, what is happening?!
Physical will die soon, services will triumph... is that really what people want ?!

Yes it’s what people want. It’s the future and it’s superior. Digital, anyway. Services, I don’t think they’ll ever “take over” traditional sales.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Only one wants the money without actually putting the effort behind it.
You mean like remastering a game twice in less than 7 years effort?
This was not profit. revenue if I remember...

anyway - people eat this shit up... They are talking away our value, games, ownership and we are happy to pay for all of it and take pants down ourselves. Seriously, what is happening?!
Physical will die soon, services will triumph... is that really what people want ?!

Lol even with out Gamepass the push to digital was happening because people are lazy. They rather click a few buttons get a game than drive to the store. Or have to get off the couch to change a disc. You dont seem to angry over the discless PS5.
 
Spider-Man was also heavily bundled. Just like some other games last gen that saw massive boosts in sales, like GoW2018 and Horizon. My PS4 Pro came with a copy of the game. If Spider-Man 2 was heavily bundled on PS2 it could have also sold a lot more than it did otherwise.

Either way you’re attributing the spur in popularity to the sales of the game when in reality the sales of the game were spurred by the massive increase in awareness by the MCU movies and the bundles.

Yeah the popularity of the MCU really helped Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy sell... stop it.
 

leo-j

Member
Tbh the early Xbox 360 Microsoft was a beast. New IP’s, Gears of war, Forza, and peak Halo. Xbox live was pushing the medium on consoles ( made Sony step it the F up with PlayStation 3 mid gen refreshes). They even had Xbox deals with COD, Bioshock, Mass effect and most square enix games (360 was the most successful Xbox in Japan for a reason). Idk what happened? They seemed to have been promising similar with series launch but they’ve been Xbox one’ing this gen with the exception of buying huge publishers.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Sony are pushing for physical to die as quickly as MS though. They want you to pay 70 dollars for a digital copy of a game you can't trade in and to kill the pre owned market more than MS.

Just go in a local second hand store like Cex in the UK and see how many copies of Sony first party games they have over any other game.

The nature of sonys games are one and done. Or in many cases not done at all for 75 percent of the audience.

Then all those copies sit second hand on shelves or are sold on ebay with no profit to sony.

Do you think every single one one of those customers wouldn't prefer spending 15 pounds a month to play the game and move onto the next?

Of course not "every one" would prefer that. Hell, most Xbox customers do not prefer that. 85% of Xbox game revenue is coming games and content not on Game Pass.
 

Unknown?

Member
But you're also being naive. Whatever your opinion on subs, they're here. $70 games will have to compete against them and win or lose. Pouting doesn't stop it. Didnt prevent subs in every other media form.
Yeah just like DLC and micro transactions. It's here to stay, instead of just giving us better products.
 
But yes, Japan in particular they always had a bigger preference for portable/mobile/handheld gaming devices, I assume because compared to most countries they have long commutes, mostly do them in public transport, and on top of that have relatively small houses.

And on top of that Japan always had top tier mobile devices tech and games. As I remember, the Sharp 3D display tech of 3DS was used on Japanese mobile phones before using it on 3DS.

Tired of these excuses.

Japan was fully onboard home console train for most of PS3/wii generation.

Their working conditions/ society didn't change overnight.

Companies never focused on engagement, keeping people hooked there.

If I play some of current Japanese games, I would also abandon consoles and find a new passtime.
 
Imagine having this stupid hot cake, believing Sony is the evil guy, when:

dyJoXUd.jpg


ocjZfkG.jpg


lIo2jH8.jpg


u6TzyOh.jpg


I6eHZIK.jpg


TharIxJ.jpg


L9v4DtW.jpg



lTKam8G.jpg





GfzKOPw.jpg


tfrcDB4.jpg


07NaeN7.jpg


IOw7nlH.jpg


So on and so forth.

This industry and gamers have normalized the practice of:

Releasing broken, unfinished, unpolished games.

And we have all the shady design behinds MTXs.

So, sowrry...you take is so dumb that makes my brain hurts when there is actual shitty practices, that are bad for consumers and hurt the quality of the experience.
I'd rather play a game that is a bit rough around the edges and not fully realized to the original vision like FFXV that is still fun rather than a fucking sony movie game like TLOU or nu-GOW. People like you don't even actually care abouthaving fun just whining about optional microtransactions on the internet instead. And you act like most games are like this when in reality it's only a rare few that come out unfinished or have compulsory microtransactions to access what should have been in the campaign.
 
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Yeah the popularity of the MCU really helped Avengers and Guardians of the Galaxy sell... stop it.

You’re still ignoring the massive bundles. And clinging to a shit game like Avengers won’t help your stupid theory.

It’s ok, we can agree to disagree.

By the way has anyone ever heard of Wolverine? It’s the next big super hero game from Insomniac. It’s based off the little known comic book character, can’t remember his name. I hope the game popularizes him, maybe we even get some movies or something out of it.
 

damidu

Member
them having growth targets of %75 for gamepass (and missing by %50) doesn’t look too hot tbh.
guess we will see how it goes.
i sure as hell won’t stay monthly subbed for something over $20
just wait games to pile up and sub for a month in a year to go through them.
 

pasterpl

Member
Microsoft should have just re-released the Xbox 360.....Since most of the games people are listing (for reasons to buy a Series X) could be done on that.
Would love to flight sim, forza horizon 5, starfield, 4k 120 fps games running on Xbox 360, on the other hand Sony should stick with ps4 as most ps gamers here only care about next remaster, remake of ps3 game, sequels, and obviously Sony sees that and are releasing most of their games as cross gen.
And people don't honestly think that the majority of gamepass subs are still just $1 do they?
Unfortunately yes, even with 2.9bn revenue number reported/leaked, some people, cannot comprehend, allow themselves to accept this fact that gamepass drives decent revenues for ms and that not all subs are $1. Don’t forget that MS is not allowed to make any money on gaming or release any games and games they release are all trash (regardless of review scores - those are all paid shillls)
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Not upset at all, just made a point related to the thread.

Discussing main topic, I think it is games like MS Fligh Sim that re pushing the medium forward from tech perspective, games like starfield will bring us new level of scale to AAA games, expect Forza to bring new level of sim experience to console gaming, we have got gems like pentiment that are breath of fresh air as well even though are not breaking any grounds. Meanwhile competition is focused on releasing remasters, remakes and sequels. I see MS more open to experimenting with new ideas, IPs, tech, while I see Sony as being focused on manufacturing more games following their winning format/formula but then what next? They already are releasing some games that’s honestly should be DLCs. Interestingly Sony seems to be separating multiplayer to their games as separate titles - that’s def pushing games medium forwards and not chasing revenues.
To me it shows you are recognising and overselling MS while doing little more than hand waving years and years of Sony’s publishing and development work as “walking simulators”… not even recognising advancement in advancing the medium through a tech perspective (two weights and two measures and all that).
 
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