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Dear Capcom, I still want Deep Down

jm89

Member
tony-burton-apollo-creed.gif
 

CamHostage

Member
I don't think you do still want it?

You want what it represented and what it could show off, but the actual game and engine had limitations that likely would have been a drag in the long-term.

Deep Down showed itself off so well because it simple and allowed cool things to happen in semi-controlled environments. It was a corridor dungeon crawler with randomly-generated maps. Areas were boxy and replicated procedurally in the engine, with the one large dragon cavern fight space breaking away from the walled-in interior spaces (sometimes lit by outside light spilling in but usually a dark cavern with simple block arrangements.) It's doing a lot of things that other games have done (the Panta Rhei wiki page summarizes a lot of its effects and techniques,) but because this was contained in a corridor and mostly kept in the dark, the effects could be controlled and optimized to show their best; had this been an open-world game with a game camera less constricted to the narrow player view in confined corridors, you would see its qualities in a less flattering light.

Combat, at least in the TGS model, was relatively rudimentary in terms of gamer expectations. The choice-based RPG mechanics were interesting as opposed to the more whittle-down approach, and there were context-sensitive action moments like the fake chests and the fire turrets which can be destroyed, plus the heavy attack sequences are reminiscent of some of the extremely weighty, measured attacks in Monster Hunter. Some people would have appreciated its slow and deliberate style (and the final game might have had more action-oriented combo technique than that seen in TGS?) but most would have found it dry and sluggish. And going by that dragon boss, the approach to big creatures was a war of attrition, a stick-and-move technique based on charging weapons as opposed to combo or fully dynamic combat. The dragon was basically a giant turret that spun around and fired flames at you to dodge or wall off.

Now, some people would have enjoyed a game like this, and maybe you are among them. (I sure regret that the TGS demo never got out for everybody to play.) And the final game would have been more rich and complex in systems to play with than we saw in the 2014 play test. But Deep Down was going to be much more of a simple multiplayer dungeon crawler than people understood. It was not going to be a big, sprawling RPG epic as people imagined when they first saw that trailer. It was going to be a free-to-play multiplayer dungeon hack. Think more Wizardry than Skyrim, but with realtime fighting and co-op. (It also was going to have a weird alt-future storyline, sort of like AC where you in the future travel back in time to spelunk into caverns.) If that's for you, then I feel for your loss, but for most people, we probably got the better deal in Capcom putting its effort into Monster Hunter World and RE Engine games instead of continuing this project.
 
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Capcom’s track record for releasing new IPs post 7th generation (PS3, Xbox) is in the gutter. Not sure why they can’t get their shit together on games like Deep Down and Pragmata.
ExoPrimal could have been interesting, but I think they shit themselves in the foot by making it multiplayer only.
 
It’s clearly not gonna happen. It was just an early concept that never amounted to anything. And nowadays highly unlikely something like that would ever get announced so early. People want gameplay footage and a release window no more than 12 months out, at the most. And I’m glad things are moving more in that direction. These super early concept videos of a game no one’s really making yet rarely turn out.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
It’s clearly not gonna happen. It was just an early concept that never amounted to anything. And nowadays highly unlikely something like that would ever get announced so early. People want gameplay footage and a release window no more than 12 months out, at the most. And I’m glad things are moving more in that direction. These super early concept videos of a game no one’s really making yet rarely turn out.
Game was playable right on the TGS floors and loved gets right outta town
 

CamHostage

Member
Game was playable right on the TGS floors and loved gets right outta town

Having played a good deal of demos on trade show floors (mostly way back when games didn't even take this long to get made and didn't have as much time to fake it until they made it...), a public game demo is not necessarily a proper indicator of the state of the game back at the office. Making a game demo or trailer is its own production cycle, and there are weird reasons why the thing you see and sometimes play can't actually ship in a full game that way.

I liked a lot of what I saw in the Deep Down TGS demo, but I also see a lot of why the game never reached the market. (That said, I'm desperately curious for a post-mort some day of how far they actually got and what else the game or the Panta Rhei engine was shooting to accomplish. Unfortunately, we'll probably never get it. )
 
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supernova8

Banned

In reality, it kinda took until PS5 before we got actual games (not tech demos or TGS floor demos) with dragons looking as good as that, right?

also just for (unsolicited) context, the wall of people shouting over each other? Yeah that's still what pretty much all Japanese TV is like lol
 
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DavidGzz

Member
Gameplay vs graphics. Those Deep Down vids were like cool graphics tech demos with slow plodding and grounded characters. Maybe we'll have both with Lords of The Fallen. :D

Kind of a funny thread from what looks like a Ninny fan probably enjoying Zelda right now. If you're ok with that Dogma 2 should blow you away.
 
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CamHostage

Member
In reality, it kinda took until PS5 before we got actual games (not tech demos or TGS floor demos) with dragons looking as good as that, right?

It's not really the dragon that looks good, it's the stark lighting which makes it stand out. The model is probably pretty normal. (Panta Rhei was experimenting with some fresh stuff in subsurface scattering on nonhuman characters and whatnot, but otherwise i don't think the dragon would have been built differently than common game bosses? It's also fairly unreactive/interactive, it's just a big object that shoots fire. )

A game doing lighting this contrasty would be cool, but even games shooting for a bold visual style would typically add more balance and effects, and it would eventually lose that stark look.
 
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CamHostage

Member
I would love to get a single game with those flame graphics this generation

It's a very cool volumetric fire system, for sure.

I think the limitations of the environment, however, may be part of how it works and why we don't see other fire look this good. You can also see some of its errors/limitations at certain angles (or maybe the dragon fire is different from the corridor fire? ) where you can see strobing or frames in the fire textures.

(I'm replying mostly in response to the 2014 TGS play demo, not the 2013 teaser trailer. That trailer obviously had some demo stuff which worked less good in the real playable version, but even if you watch that trailer carefully, you can see a lot of simple elements in it. I could see Panta Rhei maybe having been actually used to render that trailer, albeit playable/realtime.)

______

That wall-block of fire streaming around a barrier was i believe showed of in an early Hogwarts Legacy trailer, does anyone know of the final game actually could do that?

(Oops, maybe not. The wizard ducks behind a similar wall, but it doesn't show a flame wrap in the trailer. Still, did this dragon fight happen in the final game? )

 
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Matt_Fox

Member
KVDrfsx.jpg


"And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two-and-a-half-thousand years Deep Down passed out of all knowledge."
 
Deep down, we all still want Elden Creed. Do it Capcom.
I think the Animus concept of it is what ultimately made the project be in development hell. It seems they didn't quite had the story bits down and game structure beyond the high fantasy medieval dungeon crawler exploration and, eventually, got canceled and the engine scrapped and reused for RE Engine.

I'd probably play the shit out of it since there was a multiplayer focus compared to DD. Let's be honest here, Capcom could scrap the whole futuristic world concept and be only a medieval setting to be more marketable for the common gamer. However, I love how weird they can be and that's what I like about Capcom franchises, even if generally leads to hits and misses. Better be Capcom than another EA/Ubisoft/etc (cough... Square with Foamstars... Cough).
 

Unknown?

Member
I don't think you do still want it?

You want what it represented and what it could show off, but the actual game and engine had limitations that likely would have been a drag in the long-term.

Deep Down showed itself off so well because it simple and allowed cool things to happen in semi-controlled environments. It was a corridor dungeon crawler with randomly-generated maps. Areas were boxy and replicated procedurally in the engine, with the one large dragon cavern fight space breaking away from the walled-in interior spaces (sometimes lit by outside light spilling in but usually a dark cavern with simple block arrangements.) It's doing a lot of things that other games have done (the Panta Rhei wiki page summarizes a lot of its effects and techniques,) but because this was contained in a corridor and mostly kept in the dark, the effects could be controlled and optimized to show their best; had this been an open-world game with a game camera less constricted to the narrow player view in confined corridors, you would see its qualities in a less flattering light.

Combat, at least in the TGS model, was relatively rudimentary in terms of gamer expectations. The choice-based RPG mechanics were interesting as opposed to the more whittle-down approach, and there were context-sensitive action moments like the fake chests and the fire turrets which can be destroyed, plus the heavy attack sequences are reminiscent of some of the extremely weighty, measured attacks in Monster Hunter. Some people would have appreciated its slow and deliberate style (and the final game might have had more action-oriented combo technique than that seen in TGS?) but most would have found it dry and sluggish. And going by that dragon boss, the approach to big creatures was a war of attrition, a stick-and-move technique based on charging weapons as opposed to combo or fully dynamic combat. The dragon was basically a giant turret that spun around and fired flames at you to dodge or wall off.

Now, some people would have enjoyed a game like this, and maybe you are among them. (I sure regret that the TGS demo never got out for everybody to play.) And the final game would have been more rich and complex in systems to play with than we saw in the 2014 play test. But Deep Down was going to be much more of a simple multiplayer dungeon crawler than people understood. It was not going to be a big, sprawling RPG epic as people imagined when they first saw that trailer. It was going to be a free-to-play multiplayer dungeon hack. Think more Wizardry than Skyrim, but with realtime fighting and co-op. (It also was going to have a weird alt-future storyline, sort of like AC where you in the future travel back in time to spelunk into caverns.) If that's for you, then I feel for your loss, but for most people, we probably got the better deal in Capcom putting its effort into Monster Hunter World and RE Engine games instead of continuing this project.
No, that's good. Open world is trash.
 

SkylineRKR

Member
I really wanted to give this a try but my expectations have always been a bit low. Capcom tried to get into the F2P train, probably with all its downsides and money grabbing since it was also sort of a first for them. This game being announced as free to play, procedural generated levels etc have been red flags to me.

But I always like some grinding for better gear and all.

I think Warframe is sort of what Deep Down might've been some day.
 
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