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Game "Journalism": Major sites fooled by 4chan, Jason Schreier offers GAF apology

T

TheExplodingHead

Banned
WanderingWind said:
Wow. "Do what you must." "against you and the Internet." How about, "Do what is right" and "against this sort of behavior."

It's a little odd for you to think we have some sort of vendetta against a person I did not know existed until today. Or that we (the collective GAF, that we are...apparently) are just against games journalism. I think largely, the members here are greatly supportive of actual games journalism, and even of humorous games enthusiast bloggers.

What I don't see a lot of support for is the type of behavior we just witnessed. There is no excuse for posting rumors based on "gut" and "it seemed okay" and still pretending to fall under the banner of "journalist."

Of course it's hard to verify sources on leaks and rumors. That doesn't mean you post every rumor and leak based solely on an image and other sites hopping aboard it. As was pointed out earlier, if Jason and Kotaku had decided to pass on this rumor, or wait for it to be verified, we'd now be talking about how they were one of the major sites to be above this type of rumor mongering.

And his wounded pride bit about being a "punching bag" does nothing for me considering his earlier tirade about how the forum members here should do his job for him.
Click to expand...

The irony of course is this entire snafu probably increased traffic and interest for the articles... Almost makes you wonder why all these sites haven't unilaterally pulled the story.
 
Metallix87

Metallix87

Member
jschreier said:
Oh man, apparently I am today's NeoGAF punching bag.

Okay - let me address this one more time before I get back to work. When I see a rumor, it seems plausible to me, and I feel as if our readers would want to hear it, I'll do several things:

1. Contact all of the companies involved.
2. Do as much research into the story as possible.
3. Make it clear that what I'm reporting is an unverified rumor.

After doing all of those things, if I still feel that the rumor is plausible, I'll post the story. As I did in this case. As more information becomes available, I'll update the story accordingly. As I did in this case. (In case you didn't notice, both Sony and Square Enix responded with a resounding "no comment." Other companies didn't respond.)

Now, I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be fake, both because I don't want to be wrong and because I really want a Vita version of Type-0, but if it is, so be it. I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again. I hate being wrong as much as anyone would, but it happens. We live in a world where publishers are excruciatingly tightlipped and Internet denizens with lots of spare time like to make things up. All I can do is follow my instincts and do my best to make sure everything I'm reporting is accurate. And when it isn't, all I can do is hold myself accountable for my mistakes and do my best to correct them as quickly and as clearly as possible.
Click to expand...

laughing.gif
 
O

Omikaru

Member
Trvst said:
My favorite thing about Kuchera is how he tries being professional one second and the next he's crying about not getting a review copy for a game and making up limericks on Twitter about it. I used to enjoy reading his articles but the guy is the definition of man-child.
Click to expand...

I still do enjoy reading his articles (he is very good at what he does), but I find his Twitter feed completely insufferable. I think it's easy to distinguish the two, but he definitely acts like a manchild.

I think one of my favourite stories he's done was this recent one on David Jaffe. It's all well written, he captures Jaffe really well, and the part where he recorded Jaffe giving Stephen Totilo shit for a dogshit story that Kotaku ran about him is pure gold.
 
R

reptilescorpio

Member
Glad to see Jason popping into the thread and conversing, even if it isn't the best response at the time. Much better than going into hiding.

The article didn't read like a rumour though, saying it was a "leak".
 
J

Jasper Avenue

Member
Omikaru said:
I still do enjoy reading his articles (he is very good at what he does), but I find his Twitter feed completely insufferable. I think it's easy to distinguish the two, but he definitely acts like a manchild.

I think one of my favourite stories he's done was this recent one on David Jaffe. It's all well written, he captures Jaffe really well, and the part where he recorded Jaffe giving Stephen Totilo shit for a dogshit story that Kotaku ran about him is pure gold.
Click to expand...

I think that's where the separation for me came from. I loved his writing then I followed him on Twitter and after about a week I had to make sure I wasn't following a fake account. Guy is good at what he does, he just comes off as a total dick most of the time.
 
Neko Mimi Mode

Neko Mimi Mode

Member
JABEE said:
He hasn't really. He still thinks that if these games are announced
that will validate his original article.
Click to expand...

So what's the problem? He's admitted mistakes were made, corrected them and even come on to GAF to stand up to the unruly mob. His own personal opinion (and what he "thinks") is no concern of yours, only what he puts on Kotaku articles.
 
S

salpa

Banned
Some people here really need a lesson in reality.

Media is a business. You want to get the scoop as quickly as possible, then ask questions later.

Go do some research on the LA Times, NY Times, Wall Street Journal or USA Today. See how many blunders were made by the top 4 media outlets in the entire USA, then come complain.

Posting about other media outlets should be a bannable offense. Every time it happens, a third of the posts are about how terrible said media site is, and how GAF is the only reliable source of news. A third is about how said site should be banned, and the last third is split between the few people being realistic and others attacking them for having a different opinion. Oh yeah, you can't forget the few every now and then who come along as if they are journalistic gurus and are here to teach these major sites the errors of their ways. These same sites who get more views and have more fans and are more successful than you will ever dream of. Can't forget about those guys.
 
F

FoneBone

Member
salpa said:
Posting about other media outlets should be a bannable offense. Every time it happens, a third of the posts are about how terrible said media site is, and how GAF is the only reliable source of news. A third is about how said site should be banned, and the last third is split between the few people being realistic and others attacking them for having a different opinion. Oh yeah, you can't forget the few every now and then who come along as if they are journalistic gurus and are here to teach these major sites the errors of their ways. These same sites who get more views and have more fans and are more successful than you will ever dream of. Can't forget about those guys.
Click to expand...
This is sarcasm, right?
 
S

scy

Member
Hix said:
So what's the problem? He's admitted mistakes were made, corrected them and even come on to GAF to stand up to the unruly mob. His own personal opinion (and what he "thinks") is no concern of yours, only what he puts on Kotaku articles.
Click to expand...

The fact that he's still sitting there going, "You still haven't proven I'm wrong" isn't exactly making him a shining example of anything, really.
 
K

kobashi100

Banned
I cant believe people actually got excited over cover cases from play.com

people must be seriously clutching at straws these days!
 
I

Ignis Fatuus

Banned
Hix said:
So what's the problem? He's admitted mistakes were made, corrected them and even come on to GAF to stand up to the unruly mob. His own personal opinion (and what he "thinks") is no concern of yours, only what he puts on Kotaku articles.
Click to expand...

That's not the correct sequence of events. He came to confront GAF, insisted that there was no reason to believe the picture was fake, demanded proof to the contrary, and only after a protracted argument finally edited the article to reflect some uncertainty without actually admitting that the image was fake.

salpa said:
Posting about other media outlets should be a bannable offense. Every time it happens, a third of the posts are about how terrible said media site is, and how GAF is the only reliable source of news. A third is about how said site should be banned, and the last third is split between the few people being realistic and others attacking them for having a different opinion. Oh yeah, you can't forget the few every now and then who come along as if they are journalistic gurus and are here to teach these major sites the errors of their ways. These same sites who get more views and have more fans and are more successful than you will ever dream of. Can't forget about those guys.
Click to expand...

So which game journalist are you?
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Hix said:
Give it a rest, I don't see you spewing this much vitriol against the other major gaming sites that reported this. At least Jason came in here to face the music. He's eaten his crow, now move on.
Click to expand...

salpa said:
Some people here really need a lesson in reality.

Media is a business. You want to get the scoop as quickly as possible, then ask questions later.

Go do some research on the LA Times, NY Times, Wall Street Journal or USA Today. See how many blunders were made by the top 4 media outlets in the entire USA, then come complain.

Posting about other media outlets should be a bannable offense. Every time it happens, a third of the posts are about how terrible said media site is, and how GAF is the only reliable source of news. A third is about how said site should be banned, and the last third is split between the few people being realistic and others attacking them for having a different opinion. Oh yeah, you can't forget the few every now and then who come along as if they are journalistic gurus and are here to teach these major sites the errors of their ways. These same sites who get more views and have more fans and are more successful than you will ever dream of. Can't forget about those guys.
Click to expand...

And this is the point where it devolves into fans spitting that "it's not that big a deal" because "those other guys do it too" and how "you're just jealous."
 
Fixed1979

Fixed1979

Member
WanderingWind said:
And this is the point where it devolves into fans spitting that "it's not that big a deal" because "those other guys do it too" and how "you're just jealous."
Click to expand...

Fans or realist? Or perhaps people who just try not to be assholes. Take your pick. Keep fighting the good fight though.
 
P

Principate

Saint Titanfall
It is really very hilarious, media mistakes are one thing but these guys did not even check the damn site. It takes all of 5 seconds to do so and they didn't even do that. That's why it's a joke and hilariously unprofessional. There is is litterally no defense for that shit.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
Those edits by Kotaku is hilarious. They stick by their tipsters till the end.

I don't really see the big deal in running popular rumors as news, but these are just so obviously fake that I really wonder if the people running these stories believed them in the first place. Intentionally misleading their audience?
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
Principate said:
It is really very hilarious, media mistakes are one thing but these guys did not even check the damn site. It takes all of 5 seconds to do so and they didn't even do that. That's why why it's a joke and hilariously unprofessional. There is is litterally no defense for that shit.
Click to expand...
I think it's that rush to be one of, if not the first out there with a news scoop. Fact checking be damned. ;)
 
Neko Mimi Mode

Neko Mimi Mode

Member
Ignis Fatuus said:
That's not the correct sequence of events. He came to confront GAF, insisted that there was no reason to believe the picture was fake, demanded proof to the contrary, and only after a protracted argument finally edited the article to reflect some uncertainty without actually admitting that the image was fake.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about a sequence of events, I'm talking about now. Continuing to berate him personally, ie make him a scapegoat for the several major gaming sites that reported this news, is getting to be obtuse.

WanderingWind said:
And this is the point where it devolves into fans spitting that "it's not that big a deal" because "those other guys do it too" and how "you're just jealous."
Click to expand...

Nice generalization. Shame you completely ignored what I posted.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with asking you to be consistent. Pontificating at Jason Schreier in a lengthy rant that even called into question his employment while saying nothing about the others who did the same (and have just ignored GAF) is inconsistent. By all means continue, but at this point (now he's corrected the article in question) it's really pointless.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
salpa said:
Some people here really need a lesson in reality.

Media is a business. You want to get the scoop as quickly as possible, then ask questions later.

Go do some research on the LA Times, NY Times, Wall Street Journal or USA Today. See how many blunders were made by the top 4 media outlets in the entire USA, then come complain.

Posting about other media outlets should be a bannable offense. Every time it happens, a third of the posts are about how terrible said media site is, and how GAF is the only reliable source of news. A third is about how said site should be banned, and the last third is split between the few people being realistic and others attacking them for having a different opinion. Oh yeah, you can't forget the few every now and then who come along as if they are journalistic gurus and are here to teach these major sites the errors of their ways. These same sites who get more views and have more fans and are more successful than you will ever dream of. Can't forget about those guys.
Click to expand...

So who do you work for?

Also: "other media outlets" like NeoGAF is primarily that instead of a discussion board?
 
T

TheNatural

My Member!
No shocker here, seems the major sites constantly run to copy paste what one of them breaks and you can trick them all if you can trick one. I don't see why website dude has to make excuses though, just admit you goofed and stfu about it instead of constantly making excuses.

I guess though, when it takes no qualifications to be a "gaming journalist" thats what happens though. There are several hundreds of posters on this forum that could do what these guys do, just as good, if not better than them.
 
F

Foxtastical

Member
Get educated people in the field. Stop hiring "Gamers that can write" and focus on "writers/journalists that play games." Stop the crazy amount of nepotism.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Hix said:
Nice generalization. Shame you completely ignored what I posted.

For the record, there's nothing wrong with asking you to be consistent. Pontificating at Jason Schreier in a lengthy rant that even called into question his employment while saying nothing about the others who did the same (and have just ignored GAF) is inconsistent. By all means continue, but at this point (now he's corrected the article in question) it's really pointless.
Click to expand...

Not a generalization. It's what you said. Directly.

And guess what? You know why the others haven't gotten the same treatment? Probably because they did not come to this forum and post things like this.

jschreier said:
Actually, I'm asking you to prove the accusations you're making in this thread. You are accusing me (and other reporters) of posting incorrect information, but your evidence appears to be based on nothing but assumptions. If you want to continue throwing around tired "lol game journalism" insults instead of, you know, actually backing up your claims, be my guest.
Click to expand...

Which, by the way, was not directed at me. That was simply his position. That we were just "lol game journalism" and had no legitimate beef with the way things were handled. That's not being made a scapegoat. That's being held accountable for the things you say, and the things you write while under the guise of being a "professional."

But you're right. As long as people like you are willing to rewrite such recent history as a couple of hours ago in order to defend terrible journalistic practices, then it is pointless. I'm not going to allow myself to be written as somebody who has something personally against Jason.

I don't. I have a sincere issue with "games journalism" that refuses to live up to that standard. And yes, larger media sources have messed up on that end. We tend to try to hold them accountable too, not just say "you're just jealous that you don't have a lot of fans" or "you're being an asshole." People caught posted unsubstantiated rumors get raked over the coals at those places too. That is being a realist, and not an apologist.

I know people who worked very, very hard to get positions in the journalism industry, and the few I know closely would be just as offended that somebody claiming the same job as them posted unsubstantiated, unverified rumors based on gut.

And lengthy arguments? Is that a crime now? If so...um, guilty!
 
S

scy

Member
Hix said:
For the record, there's nothing wrong with asking you to be consistent. Pontificating at Jason Schreier in a lengthy rant that even called into question his employment while saying nothing about the others who did the same (and have just ignored GAF) is inconsistent. By all means continue, but at this point (now he's corrected the article in question) it's really pointless.
Click to expand...

I didn't know the other authors of their respective articles came here and posted that we're the ones making shit up and shifting the burden of proof to the reader. Good to know they all did that.
 
Neko Mimi Mode

Neko Mimi Mode

Member
I never said he didn't make mistakes, just that you know, it's painfully obtuse that you are all still jumping on him personally for it. As I said originally, give it a rest. Or don't, continue to be dicks about it and post about how you're justified in being dicks about it. Whatever suits.
 
M

mclem

Member
scy said:
To be fair, Monster Hunter Vita does actually have a page.
Click to expand...

Which, actually, is the most glaring suggestion of a dereliction of duty on the part of the journalists.

If *one* of the claimed games has a page, and *none* of the remaining three do so... ask yourself *why*?

Did they not actually think to check Play.com *itself*?
If we assume that they existed and then were pulled, why was one title allowed to stay on?

It really doesn't pass a basic smell test, even if you *don't* take into account the sourcing of the image.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
Hix said:
I never said he didn't make mistakes, just that you know, it's painfully obtuse that you are all still jumping on him personally for it. As I said originally, give it a rest. Or don't, continue to be dicks about it and post about how you're justified in being dicks about it. Whatever suits.
Click to expand...

I suspect (most) people would leave him alone if he would just admit he's been duped. Just a hunch.

The story on Kotaku and his most recent posts in this thread do not feature such an acknowledgement.
 
S

scy

Member
Hix said:
I never said he didn't make mistakes, just that you know, it's painfully obtuse that you are all still jumping on him personally for it. As I said originally, give it a rest. Or don't, continue to be dicks about it and post about how you're justified in being dicks about it. Whatever suits.
Click to expand...

Except ... nobody really is. Maybe the occasional new comment on his recent post (since it's more fun to say shit about someone who's actually reading it) but there's not much actual bitterness. Defense Forcing it just seems ... awkward.

Edit: And as echoshifting mentions, he's not really doing himself much good when his recent post is basically "I did my due diligence and I'm still pretty sure I'm right." Which is fine, I guess. Based off his posts and attitude, I'm pretty confident that he'll own up when things come to light so there's no real long-term hard feelings. At least personally. Not that he cares about what I think, anyway :x

mclem said:
Which, actually, is the most glaring suggestion of a dereliction of duty on the part of the journalists.

If *one* of the claimed games has a page, and *none* of the remaining three do so... ask yourself *why*?

Did they not actually think to check Play.com *itself*?
If we assume that they existed and then were pulled, why was one title allowed to stay on?

It really doesn't pass a basic smell test, even if you *don't* take into account the sourcing of the image.
Click to expand...

The articles mention that three of them were pulled but the Monster Hunter one remains. I guess they view it oppositely: The fact that one of them is there means they all were up at some point. Which honestly doesn't really make much sense to me but, alright, sure.

Worse yet, Tales of Innocence will actually get announced for localization and the inevitable GTA Vita will happen and that will somehow retroactively prove that these were true. Vindication!
 
BibiMaghoo

BibiMaghoo

Member
This sequence of events is pretty shocking.

I appluade the guy for posting here to try and sort it out though. I think its easy to assume that someone has done the research if every major news site is reporting it, its still lazy, but understandable. It turns out that this time, no one bothered to check.

I read the news on Gamespot and they have yet to update the article at all.
 
M

mclem

Member
scy said:
Worse yet, Tales of Innocence will actually get announced for localization
Click to expand...

Play's a European site. Colour me skeptical.


I gave a gentle prod to the original Eurogamer story poster on twitter suggesting asking Play. I do hope I may have been the catalyst for their edit.


That said, as I mentioned in the Play thread, something did spring to mind about embargo policies.
If information's in the public domain, then even if it's under embargo, news sites are happy to post about it.

That does raise the question: If information is faked to *look* like it is in the public domain, can news sites post about it?

Let's hypothesise that GTA: VCN exists. What if a journalist wants to leak the information, but can't because it's embargoed? What if he were to fake an image from a faceless site 'announcing' it. Hey presto: He has reasonable cause to believe that the information is in the public domain, and so can post embargoed news without actually breaking the embargo.
 
S

scy

Member
mclem said:
Play's a European site. Colour me skeptical.
Click to expand...

You never know, it may get localized. Eventually. Someday.
Never

That does raise the question: If information is faked to *look* like it is in the public domain, can news sites post about it?

Let's hypothesise that GTA: VCN exists. What if a journalist wants to leak the information, but can't because it's embargoed? What if he were to fake an image from a faceless site 'announcing' it. Hey presto: He has reasonable cause to believe that the information is in the public domain, and so can post embargoed news without actually breaking the embargo.
Click to expand...

Hm ... perhaps. I mean, leaking it to report on it is probably a violation of the embargo, but reporting a leak wouldn't necessarily be breaking the embargo.

But I'm not even going to try to armchair lawyer this any more than that.
 
S

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
Foxtastical said:
Get educated people in the field. Stop hiring "Gamers that can write" and focus on "writers/journalists that play games." Stop the crazy amount of nepotism.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. It probably doesn't help when game companies get a free pass all the time, but in a way that is due to the journalistic practises implemented within the industry. If the people attached to these sites held companies accountable for their actions, like every other hardball publication rightfully does, then we might not have these problems today.
 
F

Future Foundation

Member
jschreier said:
Oh man, apparently I am today's NeoGAF punching bag.

Okay - let me address this one more time before I get back to work. When I see a rumor, it seems plausible to me, and I feel as if our readers would want to hear it, I'll do several things:

1. Contact all of the companies involved.
2. Do as much research into the story as possible.
3. Make it clear that what I'm reporting is an unverified rumor.

After doing all of those things, if I still feel that the rumor is plausible, I'll post the story. As I did in this case. As more information becomes available, I'll update the story accordingly. As I did in this case. (In case you didn't notice, both Sony and Square Enix responded with a resounding "no comment." Other companies didn't respond.)

Now, I sure hope this doesn't turn out to be fake, both because I don't want to be wrong and because I really want a Vita version of Type-0, but if it is, so be it. I've been wrong before. I'll be wrong again. I hate being wrong as much as anyone would, but it happens. We live in a world where publishers are excruciatingly tightlipped and Internet denizens with lots of spare time like to make things up. All I can do is follow my instincts and do my best to make sure everything I'm reporting is accurate. And when it isn't, all I can do is hold myself accountable for my mistakes and do my best to correct them as quickly and as clearly as possible.
Click to expand...

What research? If you weren't sure and couldn't get confirmation, why didn't you just sit on the story and wait until you could? Or, even better, just not go with it at all?
 
B

Big-E

Member
Par for the course. The average Gaf member would be able to do a more credible job reporting on gaming news than what we mostly get. Shit like this is just going to get worse.
 
M

MC Safety

Member
Foxtastical said:
Get educated people in the field. Stop hiring "Gamers that can write" and focus on "writers/journalists that play games." Stop the crazy amount of nepotism.
Click to expand...

A lot of times it's game fans who can't write and have no idea about the basics of journalism.

It's unfortunate Kotaku was caught with its pantaloons down in such a fashion. It's helmed by Stephen Totilio, who's always prided himself (perhaps to excess) on his reporting skills.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
Danielsan said:
Hilarious. GAF is the only game related news site worth visiting.
Click to expand...

I agree but gaf is sometimes slow. I'll see something on kotaku and if it's not megaton-worthy it doesn't get a thread on gaf for hours if at all. I stick to kotaku/gaf combo because kotaku uploads new stories much quicker imo for ones that don't necessarily involve highly anticipated games. Or ones about industry people and so on.
 
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