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[The Mana Legend]

Was the Tales of Destiny they added to the list the Tales of Destiny R Director's Cut version or was it the mehtastic vanilla version on the PS1?

Additionally, was it the crappy Phantasia GBA version or was it the superior Tales of Phantasia X version? Because they've mostly alluded to localized efforts so far (and thus I don't think Mother 3 is going to be anywhere on this list at all which is a big fat shame).

These questions must be answered.

I didn't read the Tales of Destiny entry, but I saw the boxart, and it was the PS1 US boxart.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Ranking Deus Ex that low is criminal, wtf.

 

[kswiston]

Not trying to be aggressive, but what's the point of having the thread be annual? If voting threads are frowned upon and supposed to be rare, wouldn't it be better to do a brand new topic like Best Videogame Composer or something?

The thread's main purpose is to highlight the rpgs that NeoGAF collectively feels are worth playing, and to encourage people to try games they might have missed previously.

I feel like doing the thread annually is useful because:

A) GAF has a lot of turnover. We get a lot of new members each year, with insights worth sharing. Also, people don't dig up threads that are years old for recommendations, so the newer members probably missed out on the previous threads.

B) On top of new releases, old games are being re-released on services like GOG, PSN, and Virtual Console, letting younger gamers experience them for the first time. The first time I ran the RPG thread, none of the Ultima games had been in print for years. Now all of them are available for cheap on GOG.com. If I re-run the thread, I would like to do a better job pointing out the venders that sell classic titles for reasonable prices.

C) Unlike most vote threads, people are encouraged to back up their choices. Most actually do, and some of those posts from knowledgeable members are excellent. They are fun to read, and sometimes inspire me to pick up a game I skipped or haven't played in awhile. The threads also have a mostly positive spin, which is a nice change of pace from a lot of threads on the Gaming side.

D) It might just be me, but I think it's fun to see how the rankings change from year to year. Especially the newer titles.


Voting threads are discouraged because most of them are just hundreds of posts listing things with no explanation. The Rpg threads mostly avoid that, and we get good discussion each year. If we can have 4-5 "What games are worth picking up on Dreamcast?" threads a year, and 4-5 "Was Diablo 3 worth the hype" threads a month, I think we can have one Essential RPG thread a year.

Was the Tales of Destiny they added to the list the Tales of Destiny R Director's Cut version or was it the mehtastic vanilla version on the PS1?

Additionally, was it the crappy Phantasia GBA version or was it the superior Tales of Phantasia X version? Because they've mostly alluded to localized efforts so far (and thus I don't think Mother 3 is going to be anywhere on this list at all which is a big fat shame).

These questions must be answered.

To quote IGN:

While Tales of Phantasia began the Tales series, Tales of Destiny was the first game in the franchise to make it to the west, and it remains to this day an extraordinary example of a solid Japanese RPG. Focusing on a guy named Stahn and the crew of characters he meets on his journey, Tales of Destiny departed from JRPG conventions by making battle realtime, almost like a side-scrolling fighting game with a twist. Tales of Destiny toted beautiful graphics, a great soundtrack and a compelling story, making it one of the most memorable RPGs from its era.

Definitely the PS1 version. They list Tales of Phantasia as the SNES version, and seem to give it a spot on the list simply because it started the franchise:

The Tales series is a huge phenomenon, but it all started rather modestly nearly two decades ago in Japan in the form of Tales of Phantasia. While it didn't come out in the west until over ten years after it arrived on Super Famicom, Tales of Phantasia held a special place in gamers' hearts around the world for beginning a franchise that gave us the likes of Tales of Destiny, Tales of Eternia, Tales of Symphonia and more. Phantasia may not be the best game in the series, but it began one of the best-selling and most beloved modern RPG franchises, and that's really saying something.

 

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I liked Jade Empire and all, but #30 is pretty damn funny.

Also, NWN should not be on the list. The SP campaign alone should keep it out of consideration.

Not to fully bash Bioware, BG2 should be top 10.

 

[YAWN]

No Valkyrie Profile, but they have Tales of Phantasia, Destiny and Shitphonia. One of the only mature, adult-themed JRPGs versus Elementary Schooler JRPGs.

What?

Don't be that guy.

 

[Pollux]

Oblivion over Morrowind? They're fucking crazy.

 

[King of the Potato People]

No Valkyrie Profile, but they have Tales of Phantasia, Destiny and Shitphonia. One of the only mature, adult-themed JRPGs versus Elementary Schooler JRPGs.

What?

Tales games are fun, people like them because generally they don't try to be mature and that's a breath of fresh air.

 

[Moral Panic]

Oblivion at 22 is a crime against all good sense. I'd rather play Demon's Souls any day, any time.

 

[water_wendi]

wat

LOL "the minigames will make the hours fly by?"

"Immeasurably deep?"

 

[The Mana Legend]

Tales games are fun, people like them because generally they don't try to be mature and that's a breath of fresh air.

Not in the JRPG genre, where a vast majority of the genre are all the same thing almost.

 

[Uthred]

Xenogears was a great game but people seem to be forgetting the second half which was a sloppy mess

 

[YAWN]

Not in the JRPG genre, where a vast majority of the genre are all the same thing almost.

So why are you singling out Tales?
Final Fantasies are normally full of bishie teens too. Hell, most JRPGs are.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Credibility gone with Oblivion that high.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

They are going to it, aren't they?
They are going to put FFVII on the top10.

And somehow Deus Ex is 25, the game that truly lets you roleplay.

 

[The Mana Legend]

So why are you singling out Tales?
Final Fantasies are normally full of bishie teens too. Hell, most JRPGs are.

Because not every Final Fantasy has the shittiest writing, stories and casts of characters.

 

[TheExodu5]

Thanks to that, I had too look at xenoblade's review

lip-sync....WTF
and the graphics.. HA

The hell? How can you justify comparing a Wii game to HD console games, graphically. Xenoblade is a visual marvel on the Wii.

 

[SictorVullivan]

Considering how the list has gone so far, to see Dark Souls in the 20-1 bracket would be pretty lucky, going off how IGN has handled the 80 entries thus far.

Some of the more controversial RPG's like ME3 and Skyrim are still yet to feature, and I bet Fallout 3 will be in the top 10 for sure.

 

[YAWN]

Because not every Final Fantasy has the shittiest writing, stories and casts of characters.

And neither does Tales.

 

[Manmademan]

Xenogears was a great game but people seem to be forgetting the second half which was a sloppy mess

Pretty much. The game is clearly unfinished. FFXII gets a lot of crap for Matsuno leaving and messing up development, but it's bush league compared to the second half hack job xenogears got.

I have issues with the storyline (it reads like bad anime, with nonsensical religious references tossed in for shock value) but that may come down to taste. The technical issues are a bigger deal.

 

[kswiston]

They are going to it, aren't they?
They are going to put FFVII on the top10.

And somehow Deus Ex is 25, the game that truly lets you roleplay.

How would putting Final Fantasy VII in the top 10 be that controversial? Type "Top Rpgs of all time" into google, and most of the results have FF7 in the top 10. It would be more controversial if it wasn't in the top 10. Especially for the type of gamer who reads IGN as their primary gaming news source.

EDIT: I am not saying I would necessarily place FFVII into the top 10, but I would be surprised if IGN didn't do so. Until Skyrim, it was the best selling rpg of all time after Pokemon and WoW.

 

[Dark Schala]

To quote IGN:

Definitely the PS1 version. They list Tales of Phantasia as the SNES version, and seem to give it a spot on the list simply because it started the franchise:

Thank you! I get their rationalization behind including games which start out the series sometimes and leave a legacy behind (and ToP SFC did have a technical feat in terms of including the theme song in the demo video), but I personally wouldn't include it on my list, just because other versions of it are so much better (the X version has no spell freeze, for example), and other Tales games have made more strides towards a better battle system. Some of the games included on the list just seem like they included them because of their legacies or because of influence, and while I don't see the problem with that, I feel like the spots could have gone towards better games in the genre.

As for ToD PS1, to be honest, I'd played the PS2 Remake: Director's Cut prior to the PS1 version so I might have been missing the wow factor that the PS1 version might have left behind. The remake just felt so superior to the original in many ways.

Xenogears was a great game but people seem to be forgetting the second half which was a sloppy mess

I think Xenogears might have been a "you had to be there" type of game. I ended up playing it for the first time when it was released on PSN and I was pretty underwhelmed by it.

 

[Lothar]

Xenogears was a great game but people seem to be forgetting the second half which was a sloppy mess

Do you mean the second disc? That's hardly half. It's only 10 hours of a 60 hour game. And at least those 10 hours were a nice conclusion to the storyline. Unlike let's say Chrono Cross, where the entirety of the plot was told in the last two segments via infodump. And unlike FFXII where the plot falls completely apart in the second half.

 

[MisterNegative]

Because not every Final Fantasy has the shittiest writing, stories and casts of characters.

No not all of them, Just a large majority of them.

 

[kswiston]

As for ToD PS1, to be honest, I'd played the PS2 Remake: Director's Cut prior to the PS1 version so I might have been missing the wow factor that the PS1 version might have left behind. The remake just felt so superior to the original in many ways.

Tales of Destiny came out in the west a year after Final Fantasy VII, so I mainly remember it looking dated when I first played it. It wasn't a bad game, but the PS1 had so many great rpgs that I am not sure why ToD (and Wild Arms 1) are making the list over other worthy titles that probably won't make the cut. I know Persona 3 and 4 are on the list, but Persona 2 deserves a spot over Tales of Destiny or Wild Arms. Same with Valkyrie Profile and Alundra.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Where's anachronox wtf.

Soaring high above FF7 if there's any justice left in this world

 

[Dark Schala]

Tales of Destiny came out in the west a year after Final Fantasy VII, so I mainly remember it looking dated when I first played it. It wasn't a bad game, but the PS1 had so many great rpgs that I am not sure why ToD (and Wild Arms 1) are making the list over other worthy titles that probably won't make the cut. I know Persona 3 and 4 are on the list, but Persona 2 deserves a spot over Tales of Destiny or Wild Arms. Same with Valkyrie Profile and Alundra.

I'm quite surprised they haven't put VP on there yet, tbh. I'd personally put it over a few of the PS1 RPGs they've listed already. Again, like I said, they're probably listing them due to the legacies they left behind.

I'm surprised none of the Growlanser games even made it to the list just because it does something neat with the RTS/RPG/decision-making mechanics.

Where's anachronox wtf.

Unfortunately probably not gonna be on there because it doesn't look pretty.

 

[Augemitbutter]

yes, at least one growlanser game should have been in there. maybe it's too niche for IGN to notice.

 

[kswiston]

IGN posted the top 20:

20) Everquest
19) System Shock 2
18) Dark Souls
17) Earthbound
16) Diablo
15) Secret of Mana
14) Final Fantasy Tactics
13) Planescape Torment
12) Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
11) Final Fantasy VII
10) Fallout 3
9) Mass Effect 1
8) World of Warcraft
7) The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
6) Diablo 2
5) Final Fantasy IV
4) Pokemon Red/Blue
3) Baldur's Gate 2
2) Chrono Trigger
1) Final Fantasy VI


Surprised that Final Fantasy VII missed the top 10, and that Final Fantasy IV made the top 5. Also surprised that Dragon Age Origins and Final Fantasy XII were completely snubbed. I did not expect Diablo 1 or Everquest to show up either. Rest was mostly expected or at least a possibility.

 

[H_Prestige]

17 RPG's better than Dark Souls?

Eh, at least they put it on the list. I didn't expect even that much.

 

[SerRodrik]

Not as bad as I thought. Nary a Mass Effect 3 or Dragon Age 2 in sight. But I called it on Nocturne not being included.

 

[King of the Potato People]

I don't exactly disagree with VI being 1, it's a magnificent game. That, IX and XII (overlooked here) make up Ito's holy trinity of the FF series.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Not as bad as I thought. Nary a Mass Effect 3 or Dragon Age 2 in sight. But I called it on Nocturne not being included.

Honestly disappointed in them, but FFVI as the top RPG is acceptable.


I'd take Bloodlines over any Elder Scrolls RPG in a heartbeat.

 

[SerRodrik]

Honestly disappointed in them, but FFVI as the top RPG is acceptable.


I'd take Bloodlines over any Elder Scrolls RPG in a heartbeat.

Wait wait wait, was Bloodlines not on the list? Wow, it wasn't. What.

 

[Zeliard]

Nocturne is probably the most underappreciated RPG ever.

 

[The Mana Legend]

And neither does Tales.

They pretty much do, actually. I have yet to play a Tales game that doesn't play like a low-rate anime.

 

[The Mana Legend]

Wait wait wait, was Bloodlines not on the list? Wow, it wasn't. What.

This, along with no Nocturne or Valkyrie Profile is a disgrace. But seriously, they put fucking Tales of Destiny up in this shit? Really?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Nocturne is probably the most underappreciated RPG ever.

No, it has a very devout following, and any pre-P3 SMT fans know it's the best.

Underappreciated would be, say, GrimGrimoire; a game that almost NO ONE played.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

Besides my Mario RPGs, my favorite RPGs make up 3 of the top 4. I guess I can't complain about that.

 

[Socreges]

Is FFIV regarded that highly? What makes it so great?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Is FFIV regarded that highly? What makes it so great?

Classic story, introduced a lot of mainstay FF elements. I wouldn't put it above my top 10, but it's pretty great.

 

[kswiston]

Is FFIV regarded that highly? What makes it so great?

Final Fantasy IV is on there for the same reason Pokemon Red/Blue is. It was important to the evolution of the jrpg genre, and was a childhood favourite/first rpg for a lot of people. I'd take Final Fantasy V-XII over IV for a number of gameplay related reasons though. Final Fantasy IV is extremely straight forward. The game chooses your party members for you as dictated by the story (I think the GBA remake actually lets you choose your team near the end though). Characters are a set class, and learn spells/abilities at set levels. Other than choosing what class-specific equipment to use, there is zero customization.

 

[- J - D -]

Well at least CT and FFVI are in top 3.

 

[Yuterald]

Was there even a mention of King's Field? Did it even make the list? What about Shadow Tower? Sure, put both Souls games on a top 100 without even mentioning the games responsible for their existence. GrimGrimoire and Nocturne unappreciated? At least people talk about those games. No one even knows what the fuck King's Field is! Whatever, dudes.

 

[Foffy]

Skyrim in the top 10? That's a fucking awful list.

Was there even a mention of King's Field? Did it even make the list? What about Shadow Tower? Sure, put both Souls games on a top 100 without even mentioning the games responsible for their existence. GrimGrimoire and Nocturne unappreciated? At least people talk about those games. No one even knows what the fuck King's Field is! Whatever, dudes.

The Western press has always hated King's Field and its spinoffs, despite the exact same qualities being what's emphasized in the Souls titles.

 

[Jarmel]

IGN posted the top 20:

20) Everquest
19) System Shock 2
18) Dark Souls
17) Earthbound
16) Diablo
15) Secret of Mana
14) Final Fantasy Tactics
13) Planescape Torment
12) Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
11) Final Fantasy VII
10) Fallout 3
9) Mass Effect 1
8) World of Warcraft
7) The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
6) Diablo 2
5) Final Fantasy IV
4) Pokemon Red/Blue
3) Baldur's Gate 2
2) Chrono Trigger
1) Final Fantasy VI


Surprised that Final Fantasy VII missed the top 10, and that Final Fantasy IV made the top 5. Also surprised that Dragon Age Origins and Final Fantasy XII were completely snubbed. I did not expect Diablo 1 or Everquest to show up either. Rest was mostly expected or at least a possibility.

Some of these are decent surprise picks but the exclusion of other titles really makes me go WTF at some of the other picks. Like they chose some of the weirdest Tales instead of Vesperia. Also how the fuck is Mass Effect 3 not on there but Jade Empire is? In addition, as much as I love Mass Effect 1, KOTOR should have been higher.

 

[Zaventem]

Skyrim before any of the Souls games? Fallout 3 in the top 10? pfahahahahaha

 

[kswiston]

GAF's last Top 20 for comparison:

- Chrono Trigger
- Final Fantasy 6
- Xenoblade
- The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim
- Persona 4
- Suikoden 2
- Baldur's Gate 2
- Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
- Final Fantasy 7
- Demon's Souls
- Planescape: Torment
- Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines
- Diablo 2
- Final Fantasy Tactics
- Mass Effect
- SMT: Nocturne
- Valkyria Chronicles
- Final Fantasy 12
- Dark Souls
- Final Fantasy 9


11 of the 20 games on both the GAF and IGN lists overlap. The only games on our Top 20 that were completely missing from IGN's top 100 were Nocturne and Bloodlines. Both lists had the same top 2 as well (just flip-flopped).

 

[cj_iwakura]

Skyrim in the top 10? That's a fucking awful list.




The Western press has always hated King's Field and its spinoffs, despite the exact same qualities being what's emphasized in the Souls titles.

To be fair, King's Field is comparatively a lot jankier and not nearly as fluid in terms of gameplay, nor does it have the Souls' games groundbreaking online.

 

[Dark Schala]

Was there even a mention of King's Field? Did it even make the list? What about Shadow Tower? Sure, put both Souls games on a top 100 without even mentioning the games responsible for their existence. GrimGrimoire and Nocturne unappreciated? At least people talk about those games. No one even knows what the fuck King's Field is! Whatever, dudes.

Yeah, I don't think I have ever seen any of the western media like King's Field or give it a lot of credit. Pretty weird they never included one of them but then included the Souls games because for other series they just included some of the first games because of the legacies they left behind.

Not a bad final 20 (like kswiston said, I noticed a lot of overlap between the top 20 from the GAF list and the IGN list), but the IGN list as a whole could be much much better given its source (whom you'd think would have a broader and wider knowledge of the genre if it comes from more than one person working there).

 

[ProtomanNeo]

I'll be damned! They got number #1 right. These are dark times we live in my friends, but this gives me a glimmer of hope!