mugurumakensei
Member
Those posts ignore the fact that the majority of your costs are in asset creation and not programming.
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Is Capcom the next THQ?
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Those posts ignore the fact that the majority of your costs are in asset creation and not programming.
SousedLouse
Member
Alright, Demon's Souls, sorry. Isn't Dark Souls a follow-up to Demon's Souls? I get them mixed up sometimes. My point is, what From Software 'does' isn't all that spectacular - they work within a budget and set their sales expectations accordingly. Other companies do that and have done that; it's not such a bizarre concept for Japanese devs that FS can be said to be the sole example of good management, and it certainly doesn't explain From's recent successes or rough patches.
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls owe their success to their novelty and positive reception, From's willingness to listen to their fans (and the latter isn't even such a strong point, since apparently getting them to do stuff like crank out a PC port for Dark Souls was like pulling teeth), and the fact that their publishers for those games, Atlus and Bandai Namco, didn't make any boneheaded decisions while dealing with them.
Dark Souls probably owes a lot to the foundation that Demon's Souls laid, in both mechanics and critical reception. And a lot of that stems from the fact that Demon's Souls got good word-of-mouth based on import impressions - it probably would have been lambasted by the English-speaking gaming press otherwise, since it's rough around the edges in some places and combat doesn't reward rushing in like a madman, which usually gets a game slapped with labels like 'brutal', 'unfair', "steep learning curve", etc. Those labels are the sort of things that can scare people away from a game like Demon's Souls, and if they had taken hold from the start, before people got a chance to try the game, it would have suffered. Instead, it was accepted for what it is, and From followed up on that by running great in-game promotions and patching stuff when they could. It did well, hit Greatest Hits, had some really choice promotions on PSN, and the rest is history.
I'm sure that Dark Souls would have been made at one point or another, but it probably wouldn't have been made as quickly if Demon's Souls wasn't such a success.
And it's not as if similar games aren't being made. If they weren't, people wouldn't compare them to Demon's or Dark Souls so much. Just to keep this post on topic, Dragon's Dogma is somewhat similar and that's a Capcom game, although that's more of a matter of shared influence than anything else. A better example would be Acquire, which made Clan Of Champions; I can't help but feel like that's their attempt at making a action-RPG Souls-like. So as far as people doing what From does is concerned, attempts are being made. They're not 1-to-1, but the concept isn't completely being ignored.
And what From 'does' isn't always such a sure-fire success, either. Most of From's games are RPGs and mech games - always have been, probably always will be - and they've made their mech games with the same type of reasonable budgeting, but those games haven't been a runaway success outside of Japan since the early 2000s. It makes sense, mind - low fantasy is more popular than robots are - but considering From's total output I think it's safe to say that the Souls games are an outlier.
Armored Core V in particular had the novelty of a fresh start for the series, and got a lot of hype from all sorts of people - longtime players, people who wanted to check the series out without playing the older games, lapsed fans who dropped out this gen, etc. People were calling it the next Chromehounds, even (another From Software mech game with a niche following, natch).
And the game did well at first. It burned off a lot of copies in Japan, more than the last two games in the series had sold in their respective first weeks combined. But after the games JP release, people actually got a chance to play it, and it wasn't all that great. Low framerate and screen tearing (especially during heavy combat), poor visibility, and a general sense of drab scared a lot of people away after the initial impressions. And when people found out that multiplayer servers (and patches, thanks to Namco Bandai) were region locked, some of them swore off the game until that was removed. And a few weeks into the game's international release, the pool of players online practically evaporated.
Thankfully, From Software has decided to address all that in the next update, Verdict Day, but that's beside my point. From Software made both of these games, and if it was just a matter of having the From touch, Armored Core V would have the same polish and intuitiveness as the Souls games, and would have done as well.
So I'm inclined to agree with Shion - Dark Souls is an exception. An exceptional game that came out at the right place at the right time which has enjoyed incredible success.
And to respond to Shion's earlier point - since that's what you were responding to earlier - Japanese devs do have a choice in how they go about their business. But companies like Capcom and Square-Enix made their choice long ago - to be relatively independent, compared to companies like From Software, which usually has to work with an outside publisher, or Namco Bandai, which works with a lot of licensed stuff and is pretty much a part of Bandai at this point - and now they have to live with the consequences. They've been stuck chasing the next AAA hit for the last couple of years because they need a big hit with immediate profits in order to compete with devs overseas and to satisfy shareholders.
They could try to put out a glut of reasonably made games, but they'd be criticized for being cheap. They could downsize, in order to make a dev cycle for console and handheld games that allows them to make new games in old series and turn a profit even with disastrous sales, but that would make it look like they can't compete with bigger companies, so they won't. Or they could try to close off their work for this gen and focus on making a few solid assets that they can use to ride out the transition to next gen; Capcom, for example, seems to be doing that with all their mobile stuff (as much as people outside of Japan hate GREE, it makes sense), while Square-Enix is probably doing the same thing with their new engine. But as far as either company is probably concerned, the From Software Method is unacceptable. I think that's a mistake, to be honest, but the choice seems to be between re-structuring or staying the course, rather than between making huge gambles and getting sustainable profit.
For what it's worth, Capcom probably wouldn't pull an advertising stunt as bad as the Homeland balloon debacle, although they've certainly done stuff that's backfired as badly, if not worse.
And now I'm near the top of the page. Great.
Only because From has never done PC ports of their titles. It's only from fan outpourings that they did a quickie port and admitted it wasn't going to be good. Dark Souls 2 is PC-first, they listened. And from the PC sales, they obviously see the support.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
I think Monster Hunter will keep them alive. But if the next console RE doesn't succeed, they'll be in real trouble.
I was going to say this but then I don't know there's some franchises that Nintendo hasn't visted since GC days that everyone wants cough* F cough* Zero
Problem is, is that F-Zero's fanbase is very small.
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
Mega Man would find a good home with Nintendo, same with Zack & Wiki.
DragonSworne
Banned
Shouldn't have ignored Wii.
That goes to all the companies finding themselves in hard times now.
That goes to all the companies finding themselves in hard times now.
PhantomZone
Member
Final Fight sequel & Mega Man sequel = goldmine waiting to be found.
airmangataosenai
Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again, and I know I'll get torn to shreds by angry Nintendo fans: Moving Monster Hunter exclusively to Nintendo platforms was among the worst business decisions they could've ever made. They are going to lose a significant chunk of the fanbase in the transition and they can't afford to have that happen with only MH and Street Fighter being guaranteed successes. I'm not talking about the Vita so much as the PSP and to a lesser extent the PS3 here. Who knows, maybe I'll end up being wrong. We only have one more week until we find out.
Since for months now you act as an angry Sony fan because Capcom didn't put Monster Hunter on Vita it's funny you complain for reactions.
Too bad for you Monster Hunter 4 won't underperform.
Glass Rebel
Member
That's what I was getting at though. They can't compete in the AAA business but still try to force it while they could create lower budget titles which have a guaranteed return and maybe from time to time a breakout hit such as Dark Souls. 2.4m sales is nothing to scoff at if you can keep a moderate budget but Capcom and Square-Enix can't do that. Trying the same thing over and over again without any success makes no sense but they still do it. If they can't convince shareholders that AAA isn't the only way for a company to make money, it's the fault of the management. It's baffling really because Capcom has an extremely well-managed franchise like Monster Hunter that doesn't rely on huge budgets or the daily trends in gaming to pull in big numbers.
Great post btw.
Oh, you will be wrong but I'm sure that won't keep you from making such posts.
walking fiend
Member
Let's see:
+ Monster Hunter: Strong multi-million seller; they are doing the right things with the series.
+ Fighting games: Strong brands, but not that popular; it seems people more or less like what they are doing
- Resident Evil: Nearly dead brand; Crapcom killed it themselves.
- Devil May Cry: Nearly dead brand; Half Crapcom's fault, half genre's downfall
- Onimusha: Hibernation, but genre is not popular anymore.
Mobile: They don't seem to take advantage of it as much as other publishers like SE are taking.
Overall, I think they will be around, but they will not be as big as they are now. The issue with THQ was that they just kept doing the wrong moves one after another; Capcom seems to be smart not to do so [rebooting DMC, apparently learning lessons from RE6, etc.]
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And let's not overplay the MH card; sure it is a sure-fire multimillion seller, but it's only one game; it probably sells 3m per year on average; that's like ~100m in revenue at $33 per game sold; it's not that much.
+ Monster Hunter: Strong multi-million seller; they are doing the right things with the series.
+ Fighting games: Strong brands, but not that popular; it seems people more or less like what they are doing
- Resident Evil: Nearly dead brand; Crapcom killed it themselves.
- Devil May Cry: Nearly dead brand; Half Crapcom's fault, half genre's downfall
- Onimusha: Hibernation, but genre is not popular anymore.
Mobile: They don't seem to take advantage of it as much as other publishers like SE are taking.
Overall, I think they will be around, but they will not be as big as they are now. The issue with THQ was that they just kept doing the wrong moves one after another; Capcom seems to be smart not to do so [rebooting DMC, apparently learning lessons from RE6, etc.]
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And let's not overplay the MH card; sure it is a sure-fire multimillion seller, but it's only one game; it probably sells 3m per year on average; that's like ~100m in revenue at $33 per game sold; it's not that much.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
It certainly won't do as well as 3rd though. Capcom even knows it.
In Japan no, but this time it won't launch only in Japan.
And I don't expect any huge drop. 4m LTD in Japan with budget re-releases is possible. 3G is at 2m.
fallingdove
Member
Capcom is not in good shape but they released my two GOTG this gen so I hope they can pull through.
walking fiend
Member
Yeah, the same with me; I LOVE their DSi library; every single game I have played have been amazing: Ghost Trick, Ace Attorney series, and even Dark Void; Zack and Wiki and MH Tri were also among my favorites last generation.
So it costs more to port engines over to a system comparable to this gen than create everything from scratch next? I'd really like to see numbers on this.
Why does everyone keep explaining how powerful the systems are, or trying to inform me that they operate on new tech? I've played both, I know what the power levels are, and the Dreamcast could still hold its own today. Quit condescending.
astarisborn94
Member
Yeah, I'm not so sure about Nintendo taking Mega Man in. There's no guarantee that Nintendo will start pumping out games for Mega Man just because they get the license and even if they do, who's to say that Mega Man would make quality games again in the foreseeable future or at least wouldn't get milked for all it's worth? Nintendo needs to focus more on bringing back the previous dormant franchise and work with what they have instead of buying more franchise that they may or may not use properly. Granted, if Capcom were to go out of business, I would accept Nintendo buying Mega Man because of how close Mega Man's connections is to Nintendo and that it would ensure him a spot in future Smash games to come, but this doesn't definitely make Mega Man's future bright.
It'd be much better if Capcom got their act together and find a way to make Mega Man relevant again or if worst came to worst, Mega Man gets sold off to Comcept.
Did THQ have a great library of IPs but insist on ignoring or devaluing them? Did THQ lose all the people who created those IPs? Those seem to be Capcom's big problem.
Coincidentally, I think when "Wii parties" were a thing and Smash Bros was looming would have been a great time for a new Power Stone. Although maybe I'm just talking as a guy who really likes Power Stone.
Coincidentally, I think when "Wii parties" were a thing and Smash Bros was looming would have been a great time for a new Power Stone. Although maybe I'm just talking as a guy who really likes Power Stone.
SousedLouse
Member
That's a good point. Not really sure why I threw that line in there, now that I think about it. I guess the initial reluctance stood out in my head, for some reason.
Oh good, then we're basically in agreement.
Yeah, it's a little weird that they use games like Monster Hunter as a financial buttress for their company, and then go off to outsource games that still require direct guidance, or pour exponentially more resources and time into bloated projects. Sometimes I suspect that they decided to do all this stuff years ago, and they've just been too stubborn to cut their losses.
airmangataosenai
Member
I like how you impulsively call me wrong and then essentially acknowledge that I'm right in your very next post. Losing close to 800k users in Japan would constitute a significant drop, one that wouldn't be made up for by western sales.
Moreover I doubt that Capcom would be all that happy with a large chunk of that 4 million coming from a budget re-release rather than full price like they had with MHP3rd.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
As bad as it sounds, I would really like them to go under so that all the IPs that they hold hostage (as in will never get new entries) find themselves in hands of studios who will actually do something good with them.
Consider the franchises' patterns, it's probably going to get a Monster Hunter 4G at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if 4G did better than 4, either, and had Nintendo taking on some of the costs of overseas release.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
152 million is cash on hand, they can use that to leverage more cash if needed.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Before I make my case that Capcpom (I refuse to spell it any way they wouldn't) is perhaps the saddest of the Big Seven Japanese 3rd Party Publishers, I'd like for everyone to read this interview: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411847
Their current fate by the time of the interview was held was sealed. They had pissed away probably the strongest transition of any of the Big Seven in 3 short years.
Strong carryover IP? Yes (Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Megaman)
Strong revived IP? Yes (Street Fighter, Mahvel)?
Strong new IP? Yes (Lost Planet, Dead Rising, Phoenix Wright, MONSTER HUNTER).
Strong engine? Yes (MT Framework)
Large talent pool skilled at crafting games on multiple systems, and can show great creative flair when given the opportunity? Yes!
All pissed away or rendered inert by that point. Why? How?!? Their management is composed intirely by inept, reactionary buffoons.
Continually they would hire on any C-list foreign dev houses like GRIN and Ninja Theory for major vital expensive projects, even after copious evidence of their mediocrity. After the red ink, low metascores, and/or deep-sixed IP, Capcpom wouldn't hesitate before doing it all over again and again. Nintendo and Sega on the other hand, LOOK at what they're thinking of buying/paying to, selecting quality devs in search of stable patronage who they can see eye to eye with. Not Capcpom, though...no, they just grabbed any scraps the other publishers had picked over.*
Hateful dismissive attitude to fans SHOCKINGLY tired of their shit, blaming fans for things, promising things then retconning the answer before going back on it, basically anything Megaman, really. You shot, first Capcpom. People liked you before. Actual liking, not that "tolerate" thing we do now at best.
Glacial, neglectful treatment of in-house talent. Note how many people Inafune was speaking about in that interview. 750. He made it sound like half really had nothing to do. You know what they call that over there? Windowseating. They didn't do anything bad to get that treatment, but it had to have come off as that. You know what employees everywhere call that? "Polish up the resume on company time."
Dismissive of energetic new ideas, then exploitative reactionary misuse of successes. Wouldn't give Ono the time of day to even deem fit to use that untapped then-actually-existing money to reinvigorate the Fighter genre, then once it sparked a wildfire, they nearly worked him nearly to death. Goes well with the westabooing from above huh? Can only do well when its been done before (and often filled by that point).
Fall? Maybe. Maybe. I can't say really; it depends on how many whales bite down on dead or dying IP given unholy unlife on free-to-pay mobile crap.
*This is why I blow up at the continually restated "western ideas can saaaaaaaaave them!!!111" bullshit; it's been going on since at least 2005 and which for some damn reason is still being uttered years after it was repeatedly proven hideously unreliable.
Their current fate by the time of the interview was held was sealed. They had pissed away probably the strongest transition of any of the Big Seven in 3 short years.
Strong carryover IP? Yes (Devil May Cry, Resident Evil, Megaman)
Strong revived IP? Yes (Street Fighter, Mahvel)?
Strong new IP? Yes (Lost Planet, Dead Rising, Phoenix Wright, MONSTER HUNTER).
Strong engine? Yes (MT Framework)
Large talent pool skilled at crafting games on multiple systems, and can show great creative flair when given the opportunity? Yes!
All pissed away or rendered inert by that point. Why? How?!? Their management is composed intirely by inept, reactionary buffoons.
Continually they would hire on any C-list foreign dev houses like GRIN and Ninja Theory for major vital expensive projects, even after copious evidence of their mediocrity. After the red ink, low metascores, and/or deep-sixed IP, Capcpom wouldn't hesitate before doing it all over again and again. Nintendo and Sega on the other hand, LOOK at what they're thinking of buying/paying to, selecting quality devs in search of stable patronage who they can see eye to eye with. Not Capcpom, though...no, they just grabbed any scraps the other publishers had picked over.*
Hateful dismissive attitude to fans SHOCKINGLY tired of their shit, blaming fans for things, promising things then retconning the answer before going back on it, basically anything Megaman, really. You shot, first Capcpom. People liked you before. Actual liking, not that "tolerate" thing we do now at best.
Glacial, neglectful treatment of in-house talent. Note how many people Inafune was speaking about in that interview. 750. He made it sound like half really had nothing to do. You know what they call that over there? Windowseating. They didn't do anything bad to get that treatment, but it had to have come off as that. You know what employees everywhere call that? "Polish up the resume on company time."
Dismissive of energetic new ideas, then exploitative reactionary misuse of successes. Wouldn't give Ono the time of day to even deem fit to use that untapped then-actually-existing money to reinvigorate the Fighter genre, then once it sparked a wildfire, they nearly worked him nearly to death. Goes well with the westabooing from above huh? Can only do well when its been done before (and often filled by that point).
Fall? Maybe. Maybe. I can't say really; it depends on how many whales bite down on dead or dying IP given unholy unlife on free-to-pay mobile crap.
*This is why I blow up at the continually restated "western ideas can saaaaaaaaave them!!!111" bullshit; it's been going on since at least 2005 and which for some damn reason is still being uttered years after it was repeatedly proven hideously unreliable.
I know that Capcom, Square-Enix, Namco-Bandai, & Konami are four of the seven big Japanese 3rd party publishers, but who are the other three?
I definitely agree with what you're saying, though.
Cameron122
Member
Classic cacpcom typing error
They actually have 1.52 million
They actually have 1.52 million
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Tecmo-Koei and Sega (I keep forgetting those two merged for some damn reason DESPITE the name). It's six. :\
Magicpaint
Member
So what platform should they have released MH4 on? Because I'm not seeing anywhere (even the PSP!) where MHP3rd numbers would be achievable.
Capcom wishes it made games half as good as THQ did this gen.
I was gonna say that them failing is totally deserved with the quality of games they put out this gen, but having looked over the list, I don't really think that's true anymore. Sure, they fucked up RE, threw Mega Man in the trash, and are still trying to make Lost Planet happen, but they had good games this gen too with their fighting games, Dragon's Dogma, the Monster Hunters, Dead Rising, and (arguably) the Devil May Cry series. They've had a few creative blunders that I can blame them for (a shitty looking Bionic Commando and whatever the hell Dark Void was supposed to be) and ones I can't (Remember Me had a lot of promise but didn't turn out well), but those would've been floated if they had just handled their main franchises better. Looking over their output as a whole, the state of the company is more regrettable than it is infuriating.
Capcom can still make decent games, but it's damaged itself in just the right (wrong) spots. In the ~8 years of this gen, if they made one RE game worthy of the franchise, a Mega Man game that looked as good as Mighty No. 9, and cut out one or two of the bombs, they'd probably be fine right now.
I was gonna say that them failing is totally deserved with the quality of games they put out this gen, but having looked over the list, I don't really think that's true anymore. Sure, they fucked up RE, threw Mega Man in the trash, and are still trying to make Lost Planet happen, but they had good games this gen too with their fighting games, Dragon's Dogma, the Monster Hunters, Dead Rising, and (arguably) the Devil May Cry series. They've had a few creative blunders that I can blame them for (a shitty looking Bionic Commando and whatever the hell Dark Void was supposed to be) and ones I can't (Remember Me had a lot of promise but didn't turn out well), but those would've been floated if they had just handled their main franchises better. Looking over their output as a whole, the state of the company is more regrettable than it is infuriating.
Capcom can still make decent games, but it's damaged itself in just the right (wrong) spots. In the ~8 years of this gen, if they made one RE game worthy of the franchise, a Mega Man game that looked as good as Mighty No. 9, and cut out one or two of the bombs, they'd probably be fine right now.
Indies and their love of retro 2D platformers.
This could potentially be disastrous for the West considering their stance on localisations recently.
1st Course
Member
At least Capcom made some successful new IPs this gen and managed to revive some of their IPs like you said. That alone make them better than most Japanese pubs this gen in my eyes.
Talk about gamer on interney who has no idea about runing business moan about the company they just recently hate.
I would not call 6 awful it was a major step up from 5 and had some amazing mechanics
Rhazer Fusion
Member
I was thinking about the same thing. The future for Japanese developers really concerns me. I don't think the majority of them will be around or near as strong as they were in the past with the current direction of the industry.
Japan needs to start aggressively marketing their games and even systems(Nintendo!!!!!)
Japan needs to stop trying to emulate Western games. Like I said before, it is not working and you are simply decimating your beloved franchises. If gamers want to play Western games, most of them are probably going to buy the actual Western games thing instead imitations.
Outsourcing is not helping either. It's ok once in a while I suppose,especially if the developers are talented, but it isn't working out either.
Japanese development needs to speed up. Period!!! Where is Devil's Third? We are still waiting for FF15 or Versus or whatever it is. Last Guardian? Remember GT5's development time? Street Fighter 5 in 2018????? Even if that isn't legitimate, I highly doubt it's coming out before 2016.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Mentioned in long post.
This is another thing, shoegazing without coming out with a bangin' followup did no one no good. It's a factor in this malaise from other there; few want to back a loser, and those of us who do back them don't think of them as losers, but its' a hard sell outside of our clade. Granted, Capcpom is still in hubris and defiance mode, so...
CadetMahoney
Member
Dragons Dogma is a creative talent masterpiece, be weird how Activision would handle a sequel.
John Caboose
Member
I bought RE6 and it convinced me to never buy RE again. I loved RE4. Never played the others.
In terms of release dates of latest games/latest good games they are very close.