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Fighting Games Weekly | Jan 13-19 | Handsome fighters never lose majors


It's ok Panda, I promised the mods I wont be posting that much in FGCW because well you know.

I'd tell you all how I really feel but I'd rather not have to deal with a ban. Just know my feelings about FGCW hasn't change since that last post and at the request of the mods who let me come back, I wont be around much.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Could it be that it's aggregating an opinion to calculate something that is typically measured through empirical means?

It's like asking ten people what a baseball player's batting average should be instead of actually counting hits and dividing by at-bats.
This is exactly it. Even still, it opens up bias towards the number of opinions rather than expertise. Still very difficult to calculate empirically though. Sticking to majors is one way of doing it, but that still doesn't give a complete, accurate picture.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=754187

Relevant part:

Is the Skullgirls voting community starting to fade?
Maybe folks considered it a 2012 game?
Because it is a 2012 game. It got a late port in 2013 that made the PC version eligible. This was made very clear in the rules of the thread as well. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a late port wouldn't be very high on someone's GotY list for multiple reasons.

i'm more stunned at KI in second place. hurray for unfinished, rushed games, i guess.
Hurray for the future of fighting game business models moreso. In a few years people will be begging to get into paid betas earlier for unfinished games. Also, the price was right.

I wonder if people consider SF4AE 2012 a '08-'09.
Probably not. Anyone who even cared about SF4 still that played it knew they bought a new product/update that was more than just a port or bundled DLC.

Sorry I was out all day today enzo_gt! :(
You have until midnight! Go Go Go Go
 
Only Wii U version. :/

Annoying that Namco didn't put it on the PS360 versions.

Namco made an awful mistake, and it's a big kick in the balls because if I recall correctly, people were begging for Tekken Ball to come back before TTT2's console release.
 

lolmark

Member
Namco made an awful mistake, and it's a big kick in the balls because if I recall correctly, people were begging for Tekken Ball to come back before TTT2's console release.
Namco will make a Tekken Ball F2P. Monetize balls, courts, and various pay to win upgrades.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Fighting Games Weekly | The Return of... Deckard Cain
Damn I legit didn't expect your return after that last post.

I don't think Skullgirls should've won this year's fighting game of the year considering it came out a year before. It really was between Injustice and KI... glad that Injustice won because it was a complete product at the very least. I am really not interesting in playing 6 character fighters that get completed a year or so after release.


This is exactly it. Even still, it opens up bias towards the number of opinions rather than expertise. Still very difficult to calculate empirically though. Sticking to majors is one way of doing it, but that still doesn't give a complete, accurate picture.
There is never going to be an empirical or mathematical way to make a tier list. Every tier list made is a matter of opinion and making sense of the game knowledge at the time.

And of course counting major wins is still not an accurate way of making tier lists especially in a game's early life cycle. Although for something DOTA 2 that's exactly how tier lists are made for that game (ban/pick ratios combined with win/loss ratio makes the tier list in that game).
 

Dahbomb

Member
A real next gen feature would be an in-game stats/tier page that shows global match ratios.
Would still be inaccurate for making tier list because it would skewer towards online popular characters and the huge disparity of skill.

Deadpool is like top 15 most popular character in online MVC3. Same for others like Hulk, Sentinel and Captain America (in the case of these characters they actually win more than they should due to lag).

Tier list is only relevant at the highest level of play and thus only statistics that take into consideration high level play actually matter.


However, having in game online stats is pretty much mandatory but as always Japanese developers don't think it's necessary to include so they will instead focus more on stuffing the game with microtransactions.
 

Beckx

Member
Would still be inaccurate for making tier list because it would skewer towards online popular characters and the huge disparity of skill.

Deadpool is like top 15 most popular character in online MVC3. Same for others like Hulk, Sentinel and Captain America (in the case of these characters they actually win more than they should due to lag).

Tier list is only relevant at the highest level of play and thus only statistics that take into consideration high level play actually matter.


However, having in game online stats is pretty much mandatory but as always Japanese developers don't think it's necessary to include so they will instead focus more on stuffing the game with microtransactions.

I'm just saying give us the kind of data that Bungie made available to players. It's never perfect but if you could see your personal ratios and the global ratios it would be a start. (Like Bungie's global and personal heat maps, etc.)

Next gen fighters need last gen features. :/
 

Kioshen

Member
Because it is a 2012 game. It got a late port in 2013 that made the PC version eligible. This was made very clear in the rules of the thread as well. I don't think its unreasonable to expect a late port wouldn't be very high on someone's GotY list for multiple reasons.

Probably not. Anyone who even cared about SF4 still that played it knew they bought a new product/update that was more than just a port or bundled DLC.

That's what I find sad about it. The version of Skullgirls that was release in 2012 doesn't even remotely come close gameplay wise to what's actually available now. IPS got an overhaul thrice, frame skip twice, round structure 1vs1 is completely different, undizzy has been added, online options got an overhaul and a character change log per edition that's longer than changes in any SF4 version.

If Lab Zero added superlatives to each revision it would have made it clearer to people that didn't follow its development I guess.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm just saying give us the kind of data that Bungie made available to players. It's never perfect but if you could see your personal ratios and the global ratios it would be a start. (Like Bungie's global and personal heat maps, etc.)

Next gen fighters need last gen features. :/
Yeah this stuff is standard but as always priority isn't going to be given to this stuff. Fighting games can't even get match making and netcode right for the most part.

That's what I find sad about it. The version of Skullgirls that was release in 2012 doesn't even remotely come close gameplay wise to what's actually available now. IPS got an overhaul thrice, frame skip twice, round structure 1vs1 is completely different, undizzy has been added, online options got an overhaul and a character change log per edition that's longer than changes in any SF4 version.
And SSF4:AE 2012 didn't win the GOTY, Injustice did which was a brand new game.

New fighting game > New expansion as far as GOTY award is concerned. Doesn't really matter what game it is and this applies to other genres as well.

Ultra SF4 is probably not going to win the GOTY for 2014 unless there is like no new fighting game released that year.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
I'm just saying give us the kind of data that Bungie made available to players. It's never perfect but if you could see your personal ratios and the global ratios it would be a start. (Like Bungie's global and personal heat maps, etc.)

Next gen fighters need last gen features. :/
I'm honestly shocked how many games/genres haven't stole stuff from Halo 3 yet. Though it is sort of a resources thing too. Look at how they had to close down WTF after a year.. sustaining these things without selling 3-5 milli out the gate becomes a legitimate issue.

Stats to approximate are very good, but I'd rather those stats be ones that help the player rather than discourage players from using who they like and to pick a top tier. Stuff like heat maps provide feedback to the player about parts of their game they need to improve. I've been saying this for a while, but tutorials in fighting games need to be dynamic and give tips to players based off of areas of their game that they're lacking. Have they been counterhit x times in a match? Pop up at the end of the match to inform them about what a counterhit is and what they can do to protect against it.
 

Beckx

Member
The player who always wants top tiers is going to get that info regardless.

The problem is that games like SFIV are so matchup dependent and the average player has to hunt and guess to find out what the matchups & counterpicks really are.

I do agree about the points you raise though. Bungie's data mining is the extreme outlier and costly.
 
To commemorate so many of FGW posters coming back from banhammer

FGW | Return of the Fallen (Stop pressing Start)

FGW | Match Reset For The Win
 
Would still be inaccurate for making tier list because it would skewer towards online popular characters and the huge disparity of skill.

Deadpool is like top 15 most popular character in online MVC3. Same for others like Hulk, Sentinel and Captain America (in the case of these characters they actually win more than they should due to lag).

Tier list is only relevant at the highest level of play and thus only statistics that take into consideration high level play actually matter.


However, having in game online stats is pretty much mandatory but as always Japanese developers don't think it's necessary to include so they will instead focus more on stuffing the game with microtransactions.

I would still like to see these stats, even if it just for online play. People can evaluate the info however and the auto build tier list would be taken with a grain of salt. It would be nice to see the raw numbers of even the basic stuff of who is used the most, most picked assists, most picked team combos, even unimportant stuff like most picked colors and stages.

Like back when I still played on 360 , I never saw deadpools really. Tons of caps, sents, wolvies, mags, taskmaster in matches is what I remember. It would be cool to see the numbers.
 

Clawww

Member
I'm honestly shocked how many games/genres haven't stole stuff from Halo 3 yet. Though it is sort of a resources thing too. Look at how they had to close down WTF after a year.. sustaining these things without selling 3-5 milli out the gate becomes a legitimate issue.

Stats to approximate are very good, but I'd rather those stats be ones that help the player rather than discourage players from using who they like and to pick a top tier. Stuff like heat maps provide feedback to the player about parts of their game they need to improve. I've been saying this for a while, but tutorials in fighting games need to be dynamic and give tips to players based off of areas of their game that they're lacking. Have they been counterhit x times in a match? Pop up at the end of the match to inform them about what a counterhit is and what they can do to protect against it.

yeah, that's all good shit to include. the stats page could link into tutorials/trials/descriptions of the relevant concept. so if I'm looking at my data and have my '%throws teched' line highlighted, I would click and enter a teching tutorial. preferrably one that's that progressive with latter sections demonstrating how techs can be baited. hell even just short video clips/demonstrations if they don't want to sit down and construct that kind of tutorial (which they fuckin should).

in general I think fighting games need to include more in-game features that explicitly guide players towards accepting the idea of progressive improvement. people want to win, obviously, but in fighters playing to learn is more important for a beginner. even something tiny like loading screen tips, you know?
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Let's wait for APEX to be over before we start voting for titles.

yeah, that's all good shit to include. the stats page could link into tutorials/trials/descriptions of the relevant concept. so if I'm looking at my data and have my '%throws teched' line highlighted, I would click and enter a teching tutorial. preferrably one that's that progressive with latter sections demonstrating how techs can be baited. hell even just short video clips/demonstrations if they don't want to sit down and construct that kind of tutorial (which they fuckin should).

in general I think fighting games need to include more in-game features that explicitly guide players towards accepting the idea of progressive improvement. people want to win, obviously, but in fighters playing to learn is more important for a beginner. even something tiny like loading screen tips, you know?
Yeah I definitely feel like it should be optional. As long as it's there. I think this generation we've made considerable progress to inform players about what they're not told otherwise, but they could still go further, and we won't see that until we have a fighting game with a budget big enough to REALLY support it post-launch. I think KI is probably the closest we'll get for that.
 
in general I think fighting games need to include more in-game features that explicitly guide players towards accepting the idea of progressive improvement. people want to win, obviously, but in fighters playing to learn is more important for a beginner. even something tiny like loading screen tips, you know?

I've said it before, but I think after battle tips are the go. If somebody gets hit by 10 cross ups or fails to land a longer combo, tell the player and show them what they should have done.
 

Kioshen

Member
And SSF4:AE 2012 didn't win the GOTY, Injustice did which was a brand new game.

New fighting game > New expansion as far as GOTY award is concerned. Doesn't really matter what game it is and this applies to other genres as well.

Ultra SF4 is probably not going to win the GOTY for 2014 unless there is like no new fighting game released that year.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't arguing about the result of the poll. I couldn't care less about that. I was trying to argue that SG got such a overhaul that it shouldn't be considered a 2012 game anymore. I do agree that to most people New fighting game > New expansion for GotY although if they don't pull a SF4 AE again with Ultra it might have that award in the bag considering its popularity.
 
SG voting bloc is just biding it's until another potential EVO charity thing to try and get the game in.
I'd say they're busy playing PC version. This version of the game has been far more alive than the console versions ever were. Of course this only applies if you aren't searching lobbies for opponents in the middle of the night in US time zones.

Also, I may as well post my impressions of the online after Thursday's frameskip fix.
Yeah, it was some sort of frameskip bug fix. When I played early on Saturday morning it definitely felt improved with most 200 ping matches feeling like standard 50 ping experiences. It was pretty great, but then it all went to hell in the evening when all pings appeared to be 300-600 regardless of the region. It went away after I reset the modem and green pings actually started appearing again. The highlight was playing 16 matches with a Japanese guy who went by the name "Inamura"at ping of 230ms. Sixteen matches at delay of 4 with someone with Japan and it was smoother than 90% of my west coast experiences. I dare say the matches were comparable to smooth East Coast matches. Now that guy probably knew not to open youtube in the middle of a fight. American internet has a long ways to go.
Feels good
 
I'd say they're busy playing PC version. This version of the game has been far more alive than the console versions ever were. Of course this only applies if you aren't searching lobbies for opponents in the middle of the night in US time zones.

Also, I may as well post my impressions of the online after Thursday's frameskip fix.

Feels good

Well, that explains a lot.
 
Again, considering i have to keep it FGC related and the big thing this week is APEX...

FGW | Avoiding a ban is part of the META-Game

(get it? bunch of members got banned from gaf, metaknight got unbanned from BRAWL and now we have a MK mirror in grand finals in a highly controversial game? I R GENIUS!?)
 

Marz

Member
those somewhat familiar with smash mechanics. look at all the bullshit options metaknight has to get back on stage.

Yea he definitely has the most options.

Crazy thing is though he's still somewhat vulnerable on the ledge you can punish his options with some of the cast.
 
Yeah this stuff is standard but as always priority isn't going to be given to this stuff. Fighting games can't even get match making and netcode right for the most part.


And SSF4:AE 2012 didn't win the GOTY, Injustice did which was a brand new game.

New fighting game > New expansion as far as GOTY award is concerned. Doesn't really matter what game it is and this applies to other genres as well.

Ultra SF4 is probably not going to win the GOTY for 2014 unless there is like no new fighting game released that year.

hey I heard there's this fighting game called Smash Bros
 

Marz

Member
And SSF4:AE 2012 didn't win the GOTY, Injustice did which was a brand new game.

New fighting game > New expansion as far as GOTY award is concerned. Doesn't really matter what game it is and this applies to other genres as well.

Ultra SF4 is probably not going to win the GOTY for 2014 unless there is like no new fighting game released that year.

Injustice and AE2012 didn't come out in the same year lol.
 
Haven't watched apex at all so what is the green eggs thing? Also I'll need to get some highlight matches to watch from you guys for next week.

And lol they unbanned metaknight? Are they playing project m?
 

Beckx

Member
Haven't watched apex at all so what is the green eggs thing? Also I'll need to get some highlight matches to watch from you guys for next week.

And lol they unbanned metaknight? Are they playing project m?

My highlights (need to get links):

Project M Grand Finals
AE Grand Finals
Melee finals have been AMAZING so far.

Green Eggs = player named aMSA using Yoshi and making top 12.

metaknight was vanilla brawl's finals. awful.
 
Green Eggs Went HAM is amazing.

id7lLHIHGIGMk.gif
 
My highlights (need to get links):

Project M Grand Finals
AE Grand Finals
Melee finals have been AMAZING so far.

Green Eggs = player named aMSA using Yoshi and making top 12.

metaknight was vanilla brawl's finals. awful.

Why did they unban metaknight?
 
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