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And the movement keeps on growing...

Jeff-DSA

Member
I'm sure you've all heard about 1080up.org by now and their efforts to get HD support on the Revolution, right?

Well it seems like the media is starting to take notice. I was speaking with Tim Forbrook, the guy heading up the site, and he mentioned that they were featured on IGN, Yahoo! UK, Advanced Media Network, Slashdot, and a slew of fansites.

So here's the question: Should Nintendo end up receiving hundreds of thousands of emails, does anybody think they'd seriously reconsider nixing HD support from the Revolution?

The guys at 1080up know for a fact that somebody from Nintendo has seen the site based on IP visits, so they're already aware of the petition.
 

HokieJoe

Member
IMO, Nintendo would really be cutting off their nose so to speak if they don't include at least the option for HD support.
 

Shoryuken

Member
It all depends on what their strategy is.

If they believe they can save a lot on development costs by not requiring/including HD resolutions, this may be one of their big selling points to developers and thus they might be fairly hesitant to change their strategy.

But if it's a matter of HD resolutions being taken out at the planning stages (believing it to not be very important), they might consider adding it back in, considering it really doesn't effect of the cost of the hardware (except for the CPU and GPU power necessary to stably run at higher resolutions).
 

fugimax

Member
A question I'd like answered from a developer is a solid figure on how much longer making a game HD-compatible (either 720p or 1080i) takes. I'm not sure what all is involved aside from higher-resolution textures and performance concerns.

Any devs care to answer?
 

HokieJoe

Member
LittleTokyo said:
Eh, I don't see HD support hurting them until late into the next generation.


You could be right. Maybe they're looking at the HD market penetration numbers, their own demographic numbers; and it's telling them that HD isn't necessary. I just don't like it when companies rule out possibilities when their competitors are clearly pushing it. In the end, they obviously know more about their own market moreso than me.

Only time will tell.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Link316 said:
I just don't see it happening, there were also petitions for GBA Earthbound and nothing came out of that


True, but there have been a lot of Kid Icarus petitions that Miyamoto HAS noticed. Shiggy said that based on petitions that he had seen, there was a lot of desire to see another Kid Icarus and it is something they have considered being brought back for the Revolution.
 

Musashi Wins!

FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
I think Nintendo has shown time and again that they work with a "good enough" policy. Which in games translates to "better than most" but with hardware means inexpensive to produce. So if it becomes better business to do it (which fan uproar could lead to) they'll do it.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Well, bypassing HD res might be a good way for Nintendo to get X360-PS3-like graphic from Rev. on SD res displays...


Consider

1080p on PS3=2,073,600 pixels per frame

720p on X360=921,600 pixels per frame

480p on Rev.=307,200 pixels per frame

Rev. has nearly 700% fewer pixels to push than PS3 at max res so if ATI can incorporate good Anti-Aliasing on Rev. it should look very nice on SD displays....HD or no...
 

aoi tsuki

Member
i've got to reread the Kaplan interview, but i can't see Nintendo not supporting even 480p, if for nothing else than to support the Gamecube games the support it, which is roughly half.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
Firest0rm said:
I don't know where it was, but remember reading that Nintendo is pushing all developers to use 480p on their games for revolution.

If 480p was a standard, it really wouldn't be so bad, but c'mon Nintendo, let the devs decide if 720p or higher is within their budget.
 

Hitman

Edmonton's milkshake attracts no boys.
The thing is.. When Madden 2007 hits for all consoles. Multi console owner will buy the version that looks nicest on their HDTV's. this WILL hurt Nintendo.
 

fugimax

Member
Multi console owner will buy the version that looks nicest on their HDTV's. this WILL hurt Nintendo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but sports titles already sell poorly on Gamecube. I don't think supporting HD would change this for Revolution.
 

SantaC

Member
Kleegamefan said:
Well, bypassing HD res might be a good way for Nintendo to get X360-PS3-like graphic from Rev. on SD res displays...


Consider

1080p on PS3=2,073,600 pixels per frame

720p on X360=921,600 pixels per frame

480p on Rev.=307,200 pixels per frame

Rev. has nearly 700% fewer pixels to push than PS3 at max res so if ATI can incorporate good Anti-Aliasing on Rev. it should look very nice on SD displays....HD or no...

see, that's what Matt C and IGNcube board posters fail to understand.
 

SantaC

Member
Redbeard said:
Maybe because Matt and those board posters own HDTVs.

Just a thought.

That wasn't the point here. Sure I'd like to see HDTV, but if the Revolution is that much weaker than Xbox360 and PS3, then Kleegamefan has a point.
 
BUY AN XDUDE 360 AND/OR PS3.

Jesus, it's a fucking simple answer. You N-biscuits can't convince me you care about technology when you spent $150 on a fucking Nintendo DS. The Revolution shares the same hardware philosophy as the DS, only codified for the console market: lowball hardware plus nostalgia and a few marginal innovations. Seriously, if you enjoy games on that groaning piece of dual-screen archaeological detritus called the DS, you sure as fuck won't mind playing games on the cheap-ass Revolution. Stick to your fucking standard, chumps!
 

SantaC

Member
Drinky Crow said:
BUY AN XDUDE 360 AND/OR PS3.

Jesus, it's a fucking simple answer. You N-biscuits can't convince me you care about technology when you spent $150 on a fucking Nintendo DS. The Revolution sharesthe same hardware philosophy as the DS, only codified for the console market: last-gen hardware plus nostalgia and a few marginal innovations. Seriously, if you enjoy games on that groaning piece of dual-screen archaeological detritus called the DS, you sure as fuck won't mind playing games on the cheap-ass Revolution. Stick to your fucking standard, chumps!

Many will probably consider Revolution as their 2nd console. The 360 / PS3 will be bought.
 
Then where's the fuckin' problem? So it won't support 1080p. If you can enjoy DS games with their PSOne visuals, you won't mind 480i/p resolutions on the Revolution.
 

SantaC

Member
Drinky Crow said:
Then where's the fuckin' problem? So it won't support 1080p. If you can enjoy DS games with their PSOne visuals, you won't mind 480i/p resolutions on the Revolution.

ah the DS will keep 2D gaming alive atleast. It should just skip the 3D games.
 

Hitman

Edmonton's milkshake attracts no boys.
Drinky Crow said:
BUY AN XDUDE 360 AND/OR PS3.

Jesus, it's a fucking simple answer. You N-biscuits can't convince me you care about technology when you spent $150 on a fucking Nintendo DS. The Revolution shares the same hardware philosophy as the DS, only codified for the console market: lowball hardware plus nostalgia and a few marginal innovations. Seriously, if you enjoy games on that groaning piece of dual-screen archaeological detritus called the DS, you sure as fuck won't mind playing games on the cheap-ass Revolution. Stick to your fucking standard, chumps!

No ass. I want to play Nintendo games(cause they are the best) at high resolution.
 
I just sent a letter to Nintendo.com that simply said:

"y'know, don't take these folks asking for HD support seriously. They'll buy your system and hype the hell out of it regardless of the technical features it has.

A loyal customer,

Drinky Crow"

I'm helping!
 

Flo_Evans

Member
isn't the rev supposed to have monitor (VGA) out? It seems pretty silly to allow you to hook it up to a monitor, then only allow it to run at 640x480.
 

SantaC

Member
Drinky Crow said:
I just sent a letter to Nintendo.com that simply said:

"y'know, don't take these folks asking for HD support seriously. They'll buy your system and hype the hell out of it regardless of the technical features it has.

A loyal customer,

Drinky Crow"

I'm helping!

A loyal Nintendo customer. That should be your new tag.
 

Mrbob

Member
Nintendo is already alienating their fanbase. I have a couple hardcore Nintendo fans for friends (Yeah, I know, amazing!) and the lack of HD pisses them off. They both own HD sets and are ticked Nintendo isn't including HD support with the Revolution. Nintendo can't play this cheap ass game in the console arena. Money by *adults* is spent quite a bit in the console sector. Those who have fancy setups and want to use them. Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot and could get hit by a bad stigma. I've been looking at getting a new TV and sound system so I've been searching a ton of audio/video forums. There are a ton of casual gamers on these A/V forums who seem to know a little about gaming but not a ton. The general consensus on these non gaming forums is that Revolution isn't even a true next gen system because Nintendo isn't supporting HD formats. Nintendo needs to add 720P support just to keep up with the joneses, so to speak. The fact of the matter is that HD capable sets are growing year over year. Nintendo misses the boat they are only hurting themselves. Also, what about 3rd parties? They are going to spend all this money making 720P widescreen games for PS3 and X360. How much effort do you think they are going to put into downsizing games for Revolution? Nintendo should add 720P support for 3rd party factor alone.
 

Andy787

Banned
Drinky Crow said:
BUY AN XDUDE 360 AND/OR PS3.

Jesus, it's a fucking simple answer. You N-biscuits can't convince me you care about technology when you spent $150 on a fucking Nintendo DS. The Revolution shares the same hardware philosophy as the DS, only codified for the console market: lowball hardware plus nostalgia and a few marginal innovations. Seriously, if you enjoy games on that groaning piece of dual-screen archaeological detritus called the DS, you sure as fuck won't mind playing games on the cheap-ass Revolution. Stick to your fucking standard, chumps!
These are the words of a wise and mighty intellectual, and I fully stand by them.
 

Lhadatt

Member
Drinky Crow said:
BUY AN XDUDE 360 AND/OR PS3.

Jesus, it's a fucking simple answer. You N-biscuits can't convince me you care about technology when you spent $150 on a fucking Nintendo DS. The Revolution shares the same hardware philosophy as the DS, only codified for the console market: lowball hardware plus nostalgia and a few marginal innovations. Seriously, if you enjoy games on that groaning piece of dual-screen archaeological detritus called the DS, you sure as fuck won't mind playing games on the cheap-ass Revolution. Stick to your fucking standard, chumps!

link-stfu.gif


I really don't give a hoot about the technology involved, as long as it's good enough for people to make the games they want to make. If Nintendo can make a gameplay experience that's 100 times greater than anything on any other system (and history has proven they can, they have, and likely will again), then darn it, I'm buying their system.

That said, this hubbub is kind of silly. I doubt Nintendo is actually not including HD support - it's most likely a case of an exec speaking before they know what they're talking about.
 

jimbo

Banned
You know I never thought about it like this. But Nintendo may know what they're doing after all, although most of us hardcore fans aren't happy. If their main demographics are KIDS, think about it. Even if houses do get HDTVs, their first HDTV is going to be the "living room" TV, not little Timmy's for his Revolution in his bedroom while DAD watches football on an old analog 27 inch.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
Kleegamefan said:
Well, bypassing HD res might be a good way for Nintendo to get X360-PS3-like graphic from Rev. on SD res displays...


Consider

1080p on PS3=2,073,600 pixels per frame

720p on X360=921,600 pixels per frame

480p on Rev.=307,200 pixels per frame

Rev. has nearly 700% fewer pixels to push than PS3 at max res so if ATI can incorporate good Anti-Aliasing on Rev. it should look very nice on SD displays....HD or no...

See, this is exactly the point Datawhore, myself and a couple of others were trying to make in the earlier Revolution HD discussion.

By providing SD only Nintendo can ensure that they need a lower spec processor to push graphics that are indistinguishable from Xbox 360 and PS3 games
when played from a SD screen.

It's a very bold bet on HD not becoming truly massmarket or a key selling point. If it pays off, Nintendo's gains are:

- Smaller size of device (less cooling)
- Lower power consumption
- Cheaper pricepoint
- More affordable development

Three out of four they have said explicitly in an interview - remember those odd power consumption comments from Iwata.

However, there is indeed a very real risk of HD becoming a real image burden even if it's not truly massmarket adopted - especially as Sony and MS push it hard - a bit like the lack of CD-ROM in N64, but in a smaller scale.

This risktaking is very Nintendo-like. Think of what Yamauchi said about the Nintendo DS gamble - "If it succeeds, we rise to heaven. If it fails, we sink to hell." Although in this case, Nintendo doesn't have a 98% market share to loose, so they should be even more willing to take a big risk.

All that said, yes I'm pissed as hell that I won't be playing Revolution in HD from my 42" plasma. The controller better be the best thing ever for me to consider it.
 

Mrbob

Member
The other factor you have to consider is that 720P games will still look cleaner and sharper on a regular analog set than 480i and 480P games will look.

A next gen console should be able to chew up and spit out a 720P signal for breakfast nice and easy. The pixel fill rate on these machines should be absolutely massive.
 

John Harker

Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Email sent:
To Whom it May Concern,
I've been a Nintendo fan since the days of NES and I'm very much looking forward
to the Revolution. However, I was extremely disappointed to learn that Nintendo
will not be competitive with PS3 and Xbox 360 by supporting HD. It seems that
with every new generation, Nintendo manages to handicap itself by not appealing
to the desires of modern gamers. The lack of DVD-playback and online support on
GameCube and then launching the system in Indigo come to mind.
Please tell NCL to reconsider its decision not to include HD support on
Revolution.

1080up.org,
Ryan

3 Day Later Response:

Hi!

Thanks for letting us know how you feel. We appreciate you giving us your
feedback and we will be forwarding it on to the appropriate people for review.

There will be more details released about the Revolution in the future so stay
tuned to www.nintendo.com for more information. We are confident that gamers
and non-gamers alike will support our focus on fun, innovation, and
affordability. Once you have a chance to play games on the Revolution, we think
you will!

Sincerely,

Nintendo of America Inc.
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
MS/SCEI might be FUXXORED if ATI decides to use a console-fied R520 refresh using 90nm or 65nm mfr. process!!!111

If so, Xenos and RSX might be in trouble because imagine the performance of R520 at 480p resolutions :D
 

jetjevons

Bish loves my games!
Or maybe they know something we don't?! Maybe Revolution won't connect to your TV at all!

Visions of VR visors and holograms dance in my head!

Seriously though, I hope they at least support 480p.
 

koam

Member
I still don't understand the monitor-out function of the rev, or was that canned? 640x480i on a monitor?
 
Drinky Crow said:
I just sent a letter to Nintendo.com that simply said:

"y'know, don't take these folks asking for HD support seriously. They'll buy your system and hype the hell out of it regardless of the technical features it has.

A loyal customer,

Drinky Crow"

I'm helping!

Quoted for truth. Nintendo could ship dog turds and you'll have millions buying it and claiming its "teh innovation."

I'll be getting a Revolution, HD or not.
 

ohamsie

Member
The Experiment said:
Quoted for truth. Nintendo could ship dog turds and you'll have millions buying it and claiming its "teh innovation."

I'll be getting a Revolution, HD or not.

It's a good thing that they don't ship dog turds then.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Lhadatt said:
If Nintendo can make a gameplay experience that's 100 times greater than anything on any other system (and history has proven they can, they have, and likely will again), then darn it, I'm buying their system.

I'm sorry, but no company ever has made games "100 times greater" than any comparative developer. That's just stupidity.
 

Jesiatha

Member
Kleegamefan said:
if ATI can incorporate good Anti-Aliasing on Rev.

and now the pixel count goes right back up ;)

I don't buy the "it's too expensive to produce HD content" argument. Current gen games with absolutely no modifications to their textures look a lot better when displayed on a standard def TV if they were internally rendered at a higher resolution. You have to get to a pretty high resolution before you hit diminishing returns from higher multisampling.
 

daegan

Member
If Nintendo wants to keep pursuing the market they found when they dropped the GC to 99$ - and they should - HD support would be a huge waste of time for them.

This is the same company that dropped digital outs from new GCs.
 
Jesiatha said:
and now the pixel count goes right back up ;)

I don't buy the "it's too expensive to produce HD content" argument. Current gen games with absolutely no modifications to their textures look a lot better when displayed on a standard def TV if they were internally rendered at a higher resolution. You have to get to a pretty high resolution before you hit diminishing returns from higher multisampling.

Who says it has to be supersampled anyway? There's other ways of doing this, like edge AA, etc.- and Nintendo can then drop that extra fillrate into fun things like extra texture layers/effects, particles, advanced texture filtering tecniques etc. etc.

And besides which, isn't MS requiring not only 720p but also 4XAA for all their games anyway?

Producing HD content does cost more, no question about it. Bigger textures to take up the same screen real estate etc.
 

Mrbob

Member
Christberg said:
Who says it has to be supersampled anyway? There's other ways of doing this, like edge AA, etc.- and Nintendo can then drop that extra fillrate into fun things like extra texture layers/effects, particles, advanced texture filtering tecniques etc. etc.

And besides which, isn't MS requiring not only 720p but also 4XAA for all their games anyway?

Producing HD content does cost more, no question about it. Bigger textures to take up the same screen real estate etc.


While costs go up, I think some of the complaining over rising costs have been overstated. If poor little tiny PC developers can produce games at higher than 720P resolution, I'm sure the 'woe is me we are losing a ton of money yet charging 10 dollars more for games' console publishers can hack it.
 

KingJ2002

Member
LittleTokyo said:
Eh, I don't see HD support hurting them until late into the next generation.

when it matters most.

it's decisions like this that hurts nintendo later in the cycle IMO.

the N64 came out swinging... then lost some steam when sony showed off more capabilities & games that people liked.

the GameCube came out swinging as well... then lost some steam when microsoft showed off they can do alot more plus have the games consumers want today (GTA, Halo, yadda yadda yadda).

now it's the same thing... nintendo's revolutionary idea will most likely sell the console well... but down the road when low end HD sets will be around the 299 price point... nintendo is going to look inferior once again.

Im a gamer so most likely i will ride this console out cause... gaming needs something interesting... it needs a "revolution". But it's always something down the road that make their console sit on my shelf collecting dust until nintendo scream out "NEW ZELDA" or something of the sort.
 
Nintendo = same lame attitude, different generation.

Nintendo will continue to ignore what the market desires until other companies prove that the demand is there and by that time, it'll be too late.

Example:

N64 - sticking to their profitable cart format when the industry switched over to the much cheaper CD media

GC - ignoring multi-media playback (CD/DVD) in favor of their proprietary disc format and ignoring their own modem peripheral which would've helped establish their online presence earlier on

Rev - (so far) no HD support when it's most likely that the marketplace will have a much greater and more dominant penetration of HD sets within the console's lifespan.

Sure, these particular hardware decisions have both pros and cons for Nintendo but there's no denying that with each generation, Nintendo will continue to ignore certain factors because "they" don't see the benefits of having them. Fuck what both the consumer and 3rd party developers want.

But who am I kidding. I'll buy the Revolution whenever it comes out so Nintendo doesn't have to worry about me. It's the casuals they need to worry about converting mindshare.
 

DrGAKMAN

Banned
Chittagong said:
See, this is exactly the point Datawhore, myself and a couple of others were trying to make in the earlier Revolution HD discussion.

By providing SD only Nintendo can ensure that they need a lower spec processor to push graphics that are indistinguishable from Xbox 360 and PS3 games
when played from a SD screen.

It's a very bold bet on HD not becoming truly massmarket or a key selling point. If it pays off, Nintendo's gains are:

- Smaller size of device (less cooling)
- Lower power consumption
- Cheaper pricepoint
- More affordable development

Three out of four they have said explicitly in an interview - remember those odd power consumption comments from Iwata.

However, there is indeed a very real risk of HD becoming a real image burden even if it's not truly massmarket adopted - especially as Sony and MS push it hard - a bit like the lack of CD-ROM in N64, but in a smaller scale.

This risktaking is very Nintendo-like. Think of what Yamauchi said about the Nintendo DS gamble - "If it succeeds, we rise to heaven. If it fails, we sink to hell." Although in this case, Nintendo doesn't have a 98% market share to loose, so they should be even more willing to take a big risk.

All that said, yes I'm pissed as hell that I won't be playing Revolution in HD from my 42" plasma. The controller better be the best thing ever for me to consider it.

You're one of my favorite posters.

Anyways...Sony is a HUGE electronics company and MS is super rich...no matter what Nintendo does it'll always look inferior to the mainstream. Nintendo could confirm HDTV tomorrow and that *might* improve mindshare by showing that they're competitive, but deep down, most mainstreamers would still would consider it inferior to Sony & MS's HiDef efforts...so...what's the point? To try to convince people that Revolution (a system from a smaller company competing against two world giants) is a powerful machine when the mass market & mass media STILL believe PS2 is more powerful than GCN?

Even if HDTV were confirmed tomorrow, casuals wouldn't take notice and hardcore naysayers would then try to look for a different "weakness" in Revolution like saying it's too small to be powerful enough or that it's (still unrevealed) controller will be a gimmick, bla bla bla, so continues the hate.

Like Drinky Crow says...if HDTV gaming is ALL you want in a next generation game machine, BUY A PS3! There's this new thing call an *option* out there, and if those options are so much better than Nintendo, why waste time hatin' on Nintendo when you could be playing the alternative "greatness" from Sony or MS?

Me, personally, I'm glad the Revolution LOOKS more serious (unlike GCN, which was pretty much considered a toy before it even launched) and I'm glad that Nintendo is going the NDS route and trying to give us new ways to play games. I can't afford an HDTV, nor do I consider higher definition the sole reason from jumping from one generation to the next. This goes for games AND movies...and I'm tired of companies trying to sell themselves on that one meager selling point just to get me to buy a shiny new over-priced boob-tube. I want an HDTV, but right now, I can't afford it. Yeah, it'll be nice if the system I own takes advantage of higher definition resolutions when/if I get an HDTV, but I think right now, this early in the game, Sony & MS are using it as a CRUTCH to sell their monsters.

So it comes down to this...Who's crutch are you leaning on: Sony & MS's better HiDef graphics or Nintendo's new gameplay interface?
 

Sho Nuff

Banned
Fans: DUDE WTF U CANT DO THIS

Nintendo: We are going to take a poop the size of a birthday cake in your mouth, and you're going to like it. (Releases non-HD console)

Fans: Oh ok
 
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