Support NeoGAF

[SuperLumberjack]

Hi everybody!

I've been looking for a long time a way to upscale 240p contents to the 2160p (4k) resolution, particularly old cinematic videos, but old 2D games too, in a goal of preservation of History I would say
But the complicated thing has never been to upscale an image, but to have something natural, which is preserving the original feeling of these contents.

And that's the real difficulty of that!

It's almost an impossible quest to translate the feeling that we got on CRT TVs or CRT monitors with digital contents and displays. But that's not why I don't want to try.
But I'm not sure that we have to go to the point where we need to replicate the image of CRTs or have blocky pixels. I think that we can have compromises, but as usual, the compromises are a question of tastes...

I already tried lots of things the last years, but was never really satisfied of what I did. It's still the case today, but want to show you 6 different ways that I used to upscale low resolution contents.

So, I just need your help, please, to know what is the best for you!

And I'm open to any suggestions if you have ideas

Thank you very much!

(sorry for my bad English)


You can have 2 votes, if you prefer a method for cinematics for example and another for 2D games.


You can watch my videos here :




















METHOD 14: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/best...tents-to-4k-resolution.1644393/post-267710180

METHOD 15: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/best...tents-to-4k-resolution.1644393/post-267891476




METHOD 17: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/best...tents-to-4k-resolution.1644393/post-268306489

METHOD 18: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/best...tents-to-4k-resolution.1644393/post-268636530


PLAYLIST : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_eO2q6Apy4&list=PLL_S06Mn5k4lKgTD0bLnDMjE11MwPsgim

[I recommend to watch this video in the 4k resolution and fullscreen, even on a 1080p display.]

00:00 Method / PlayStation and Dreamcast games
00:13 Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (PlayStation 1 - NTSC) - Introduction part 1
01:08 Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain (PlayStation 1 - NTSC) - Introduction part 2
01:46 Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (PlayStation 1 - NTSC) - Credits
02:51 Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (Dreamcast - NTSC) - Chronoplast visions
03:21 Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (PlayStation 1 - NTSC) - Introduction » It's not the 480p version
05:12 Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (PlayStation 1 - NTSC) - Demo

5:44 Super Nintendo games / Tintin : Le Temple du Soleil (Super Nintendo - PAL) - Demos
8:33 Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (Super Nintendo - NTSC) - Gameplay
10:07 Super Castlevania IV [Uncensored (Hack v1.1- Jap traduit en FR)] (Super Nintendo - NTSC) - Introduction
11:28 Super Castlevania IV [Uncensored (Hack v1.1- Jap traduit en FR)] (Super Nintendo - NTSC) - Demo
11:54 Super Metroid (Super Nintendo - NTSC) - Demos
13:43 Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (Super Nintendo - NTSC) - Ending

 

[UnNamed]

I can't see any difference.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

But there are!

But maybe it's a good thing if you can't see the differences

But did you watch the videos in the 4k resolution and fullscreen?
It's important!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I find this interesting video here: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/pc-g...-native-resolution-or-do-you-upscale.1641064/

 

[Bankai]

Can't you just use a CRT filter on the content? Shadow-mask scanlines would be awesome on this stuff. Just look at the Retroarch filters and what it can do to 240p content.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

Can't you just use a CRT filter on the content? Shadow-mask scanlines would be awesome on this stuff. Just look at the Retroarch filters and what it can do to 240p content.

Yeah I was gonna say, aren't there already filters for this? You can't just upscale 240p straight and expect it to look anything like how it should.

 

[UnNamed]

This thread is lacking of all the info: first, are you playing with an emulators, FPGA or real hardware?

 

[Beer Baelly]

 

[nkarafo]

Retroarch.

 

[Spukc]

still using my framemeister and good quality rgb cables

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Can't you just use a CRT filter on the content? Shadow-mask scanlines would be awesome on this stuff. Just look at the Retroarch filters and what it can do to 240p content.

The problem with CRT filters, as you know, it's that it has an impact on the brightness of the image.

Here I put some light scanlines and compensate the brightness with the RGB levels:



But, I don't think that it's very great with videos. Particularly if we don't watch the videos in 4k and fullscreen.

Yeah I was gonna say, aren't there already filters for this? You can't just upscale 240p straight and expect it to look anything like how it should.

I don't except something that looks like before. It's why I don't use advanced CRT filters. And my goal is only to upload old cinematics in 4k resolution for YouTube, like I already did on my channel. I just want to preserve the feeling, more or less.
In fact, I tried some things with 2D games too, just to see if it can be convincing for all.

This thread is lacking of all the info: first, are you playing with an emulators, FPGA or real hardware?

My only goal is to upscale 240p contents for videos on YouTube, not for playing.
My source files are always the original videos that we can find on the original disks for the cinematics or RAW records from emulators for the gameplays of 2D games.


For information, I used AviSynth scripts to upscale the videos.

 

[Thirty7ven]

LSD

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Here is for example what I did 10 years ago:




But for 4k contents, it's too blurry now.
But I think that the original "feeling" was more or less preserved (without scanlines), if you know what I mean.

In fact, I think that it's only a question of immersion. If it can be immersive and we don't focus too much on the image (except for analyzing and comparing of course), I think that I have achieve my goal.

The only "big" problem when we upscale, it is that the qualities becomes the defaults too and that's exactly why we focus so much on the image and have the tendency to lose the immersion and the feeling.
Maybe the blur is the solution, but in this case, why a 4k upscale ?

It's exactly why I find this video interesting:



It shows exactly what is the problem.

So, do you have some suggestions please?

 

[TGO]

Are you talking just for a video?
If so I wouldn't brother with 4K with that resolution source.
1080p and add grain to it to give it texture

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Are you talking just for a video?
If so I wouldn't brother with 4K with that resolution source.
1080p and add grain to it to give it texture

Thanks!

In fact, it's what I did 10 years ago.

But sometimes I wonder...
I think that the high definition has somewhere killed the immersion. It's the same thing when I watch some movies of my childhood sometimes.
Don't you have this feeling? We see all these things in the image, but we lose the immersion, the magic just a bit...
We definitely lost something and it's not just the nostalgia.

Even with modern movies, everything is so surreal sometimes, not real.
We lose this natural and organic aspect.

I think we are too focus on the pixels, instead of the image. The fact that we call old 2D games "pixel art" games and that we think today that it has to be pixelated is somewhere the proof that the pixels have become more important that what the image represents itself.

It's an endless quest, whereas everything was so much magic and alive with so much less pixels on CRT displays.

With displays with static definitions and high definitions, we forgot what an image should be: a representation, an idea, an abstraction.
It shouldn't be so precise! It should just be alive.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I just still tried one last method:



But I won't do another. I can't do better.
If somebody has some suggestions...

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Hello!

I come back with 5 new methods of upscale. I know that some people think that it's useless, but stay open-minded please. I think that there are some interesting results personally (I remind you that it's not for playing, but only to do videos, without a too exaggerated look)

Here are my 5 new videos :











But I will end with these last videos, because I think that I can't do better.


I can even say the methods that I find the most interesting.

There are the :

• Method 2

• Method 5

• Method 6

• Method 8

• Method 12

I think that these 5 methods have the most interesting look.

And for me, 2 methods stand out :

• the Method 2 : I think that it's the method with the most amazing and modern look.

• the Method 12 : I think that even if it's not the most fun look, it's the most natural and well balanced.

I think that I will keep these 2 methods.

Later, maybe I will post the AviSynth scripts that I used for the methods in the description of each video.


Thank you everybody for your patience and your attention!



UPDATE 1: I did something wrong with the AviSynth script of the Method 12. So I will have to do the video again. I felt that something was wrong, because I didn't find what I originally had. The relief of the image was different. In fact, I did my little experiments in a specific AviSynth file and then copied it in a new one for each method. And here I did the mistake.
But it's cool, because I know now why I was disappointed
It will be a lot better!

UPDATE 2: The video has been remake!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I have relapsed!
But I think it's for the best

In fact, I was a bit frustrated, because I really wanted to find something in between the Method 2 and the Method 12.

But it's complicated, because for who knows AviSynth, we have to imagine what a combination of functions could give as an image. It's a contradiction between a feeling that we are looking for and something logical.

But I think that I achieved what I wanted
For me, it's almost a miracle, because I could easily miss it.

And so, it's strange, because my intuition and my logic met each other at the right time!

And I'm really happy for that!

I think the result is really great, almost disturbing, because it looks modern and old school at the same time

There is this modern look that is great and the depth and the natural that I wanted I think.


Maybe you won't like it, but I will let you judge this

I think that now I definitely have finished!


Don't forget to watch in 4k!




The playlist with all the videos:

 

[coffinbirth]

The cutscenes are always a glaring issue when emulating older games, so I love to see this. Too bad it’s such a laborious and time consuming process, otherwise I’d do it to quite a few games.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked into exporting your upscaled results into an AI upscaler? I know raw 240p or 480i would probably have issues with AI artifacts, but an already upscaled and smoothed 1080p file might fare better.

 

[Keihart]

Old games look better at native resolution.
I find it disgusting how when you start rendering in higher resolutions all the ugly bits that were meant to be hidden as a blurry blob start showing as sharp ugly and undetailed .

 

[Ulysses 31]

What a weird OP with method 1 to 13 but don't say what that entails for each method.

Old consoles/PC upscaling for modern HDTVs are best done with a Retrotink 5X or OSSC(Open Source Scan Converter) and the appropriate high quality cables.

Other option is HDMI or RGD modifications if you got $$$ to burn.


Retrotink 5x makes my SNES games look good again on my 8K QLED and that's with a cheap RGB SCART cable, I got component and CSYNC RGB Scart cables on order for it for even better picture in the future.

 

[FoxMcChief]

It’s too early on a Friday for this

 

[64bitmodels]

It's exactly why I find this video interesting:


It shows exactly what is the problem.

So, do you have some suggestions please?

that video i disagree with, i feel like 3d games can look great under high resolutions, especially PS1 and N64 ones.

also you need to tell us how you make these methods work.... and also compile all of them into one video. that's too much stuff for me to watch

 

[SirKicksalot]

What are AviSynth's advantages over Topaz?

 

[Skifi28]

Poking out one of your eyes and half-closing the second after spraying it with vinegar would probably do the trick. Better than native I'd say.

 

[RaduN]

A bit off topic maybe, but for 2D 240p content, the absolute best image enhancement is ScaleFX-Hybrid shader in Retroarch.
The libretro collaborators worked for years to perfect it.
It's absolutely mind blowing.

Ps. Combine it woth a touch of apperture-crt shader, and you have a pristine 2D imagine.

 

[jaysius]

LSD

My friend had an LSD display but he tripped on it.

 

[SF Kosmo]

There is no one size fits all approach. I think Topaz Video AI is the best upscaler out there but if you just feed it 240 video and upscale it to 4K on default settings it's gonna look like ass. You need to find tune your approach, and for really drastic upscales probably make multiple passes with different settings.

These upscaling algorithms are doing a lot of different things and they're better at some than others. They're pretty good when it comes to things like deblocking and cleaning up compression artifacts, which is great for old game cinematics. They're also pretty good at anti-aliasing.

What they're less good at is things like sharpening and adding detail, and I don't really recommend attempting to scale more than 2 or 2.5x if you're trying for those sorts of enhancements.

Ultimately if you're scaling up that far be prepared to accept a certain level of softness to the image. You can add a little film grain to create the impression of detail and cover up some mushiness but it's never gonna look like a native 4K master.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

The cutscenes are always a glaring issue when emulating older games, so I love to see this. Too bad it’s such a laborious and time consuming process, otherwise I’d do it to quite a few games.

Just out of curiosity, have you looked into exporting your upscaled results into an AI upscaler? I know raw 240p or 480i would probably have issues with AI artifacts, but an already upscaled and smoothed 1080p file might fare better.

Yes, the results are sometimes impressive, I have to admit, but the problem is the AI artifacts, as you said. And it often looks a bit artificial and weird.
But, yes, it's promising!

Old games look better at native resolution.
I find it disgusting how when you start rendering in higher resolutions all the ugly bits that were meant to be hidden as a blurry blob start showing as sharp ugly and undetailed .

Yes, I agree!
But we have no choice with our modern screens. There is always a moment when we need to scale the image, so we can't avoid digital processing.

What a weird OP with method 1 to 13 but don't say what that entails for each method.

Old consoles/PC upscaling for modern HDTVs are best done with a Retrotink 5X or OSSC(Open Source Scan Converter) and the appropriate high quality cables.

Other option is HDMI or RGD modifications if you got $$$ to burn.


Retrotink 5x makes my SNES games look good again on my 8K QLED and that's with a cheap RGB SCART cable, I got component and CSYNC RGB Scart cables on order for it for even better picture in the future.

I will post the AviSynth scripts later.
There aren't complicated, but I tried lots of things to have something not too artificial, but not too raw either.
It's like finding the good recipe with different ingredients.
Sometimes the result is more or less predictable, sometimes we get something different and interesting.

It's complicated to find the right balance between something that we want to remember but is not exactly the same than before and something adapted to the high definition image of our digital screens.

But yes, with original consoles and a Retrotink 5X or OSSC, it should be great!
I already have seen lots of videos on YouTube about these displays.

But to do videos, I have to find something else

It’s too early on a Friday for this

Yes, but it's still Friday!

that video i disagree with, i feel like 3d games can look great under high resolutions, especially PS1 and N64 ones.

also you need to tell us how you make these methods work.... and also compile all of them into one video. that's too much stuff for me to watch

Yes, of course, I agree!

The problem is only with 2D games and videos.

Maybe I will do a short video at the end with all the methods, yes

But until now, I mainly tried to experiment things to see what I can get.

I didn't want to detail the method for the moment, to not influence your opinions.

What are AviSynth's advantages over Topaz?

I didn't tried Topaz.
I would say that the advantages of AviSynth is the flexibility.

I don't do complicated things compared to some people (there are honestly some geniuses on the Doom9's Forum), but my goal is just to get a natural image, so I don't need to do some crazy scripts

Poking out one of your eyes and half-closing the second after spraying it with vinegar would probably do the trick. Better than native I'd say.

Yes, I already tried, but it's too exhausting

A bit off topic maybe, but for 2D 240p content, the absolute best image enhancement is ScaleFX-Hybrid shader in Retroarch.
The libretro collaborators worked for years to perfect it.
It's absolutely mind blowing.

Ps. Combine it woth a touch of apperture-crt shader, and you have a pristine 2D imagine.

Nothing is off topic when it comes to have a good image with 2D games

My friend had an LSD display but he tripped on it.

There is no one size fits all approach. I think Topaz Video AI is the best upscaler out there but if you just feed it 240 video and upscale it to 4K on default settings it's gonna look like ass. You need to find tune your approach, and for really drastic upscales probably make multiple passes with different settings.

These upscaling algorithms are doing a lot of different things and they're better at some than others. They're pretty good when it comes to things like deblocking and cleaning up compression artifacts, which is great for old game cinematics. They're also pretty good at anti-aliasing.

What they're less good at is things like sharpening and adding detail, and I don't really recommend attempting to scale more than 2 or 2.5x if you're trying for those sorts of enhancements.

Ultimately if you're scaling up that far be prepared to accept a certain level of softness to the image. You can add a little film grain to create the impression of detail and cover up some mushiness but it's never gonna look like a native 4K master.

Yes, AI are the future for lots of things.

When I see things like this, it's really crazy!



It's almost disturbing...

And for the image, it's already impressive, but too perfectible for the moment I think.
But I'm sure that it will go beyond all of that in the next years.

It's a bit scary yes...

 

[SF Kosmo]

I didn't tried Topaz.
I would say that the advantages of AviSynth is the flexibility.

They do fundamentally different things. I use both at different points in my workflow. AviSynth is great for things like deinterlacing and removing duplicate frames, which are needed to get good results out of an AI upscale.

Yes, AI are the future for lots of things.

When I see things like this, it's really crazy!



It's almost disturbing...

And for the image, it's already impressive, but too perfectible for the moment I think.
But I'm sure that it will go beyond all of that in the next years.

It's a bit scary yes...

I wouldn't confuse Topaz for generative AI like midjourney. They're again doing different things. And Topaz has many different models that specialize in different kinds of tasks. It's definitely one of the best tools you can have when it comes to upscaling.

Here's what Topaz CAN do: Take an anime that was only ever released on standard 480p DVD and bring it up to 4K. Take a look at this:

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Try using Chinese Checkerboarding.

 

[Lethal01]

I find this interesting video here: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/pc-g...-native-resolution-or-do-you-upscale.1641064/

Best method is to just play on a CRT.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

As you know, I did a mistake for the video of the Method 12 and I had to remake it. So it's done!

But when I rewatch it, particularly the moment of the demo of gameplay of Soul Reaver, I wondered if I just could do better to have an image with a more natural depth.
I just did a last test with this video:



I tried almost all the algorithms and I just was convinced by one of them. It's close to the Method 12, but it's a bit sharper. The Method 12 looks more sweet and colorful. It's different!
I can't confirm if it's better than the other methods or not. It's a question of tastes. But yes, I just wanted to propose one last different thing with this Method 14, to not have any regrets

 

[Lethal01]

Method 0:

 

[SuperLumberjack]

They do fundamentally different things. I use both at different points in my workflow. AviSynth is great for things like deinterlacing and removing duplicate frames, which are needed to get good results out of an AI upscale.


I wouldn't confuse Topaz for generative AI like midjourney. They're again doing different things. And Topaz has many different models that specialize in different kinds of tasks. It's definitely one of the best tools you can have when it comes to upscaling.

Here's what Topaz CAN do: Take an anime that was only ever released on standard 480p DVD and bring it up to 4K. Take a look at this:

Yeah, that's really great!
There is almost a surrealist aspect that emerges.

For 480p contents, it's great! But for 240p contents, I think that it's a bit more complicated, even if it's amazing.

I didn't want to confuse Topaz with Midjourney, it's just that there are so many domains where the AI can be applied.
And all these differents domains are already really impressive!

Best method is to just play on a CRT.

I agree, but I want to do videos

 

[Lethal01]

I agree, but I want to do videos

CRT filter + 8k video for max bitrate. 4k if you gotta settle

 

[SuperLumberjack]

CRT filter + 8k video for max bitrate. 4k if you gotta settle

But who is watching videos in 8k?
It's a bit too ambitious I think, even if it's interesting

 

[Lethal01]

But who is watching videos in 8k?
It's a bit too ambitious I think, even if it's interesting

Settle for 4k then.

 

[simpatico]

I found a nice CRT on FB marketplace for $25 and prefer the IQ on old consoles vs any method of emulation or upscaling. Have a nice little 16bit retro station set up and plan on adding a PS2 and GC eventually.

 

[I Love Rock 'n' Roll]

They all look trash!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Settle for 4k then.

But in fact, you gave me a great idea for the 8k resolution

I began to do something in 4k, that was excellent with cinematic videos, but not as good with 2d games.
So I tried something else in 8k and... whaou! I found something really great I think!

I will do a very last video when I will have more time. But 8k, it's heavy...!

They all look trash!

Yes, of course, the sources are in 224p or 240p resolution!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Hi!

I'm back! I know my quest is a bit crazy, especially if we compare the different videos that I did, because we can think, they all look the same


Yes and not!

The fact is that we can do any miracle with low resolution contents. Or we have to use IA upscaling (but it's far from perfect and not really natural, particularly with pixel art games) or simulate the look of CRT TVs. But for YouTube videos, if the goal is to have a homogeneous look, I don't think it's great.

So, we have to stay simple and get something sober.

The last days, I played "Metroid: Zero Mission" and I thought one thing: this game, like "Metroid: Fusion", was on Game Boy Advance, and this console has an LCD screen
Maybe it's better to go from this kind of games, rather than games which were displayed on CRTs. Because it's really impossible to campare analogic screens and digital screens.

We only have 3 choices: imitate the CRT screens with kinds of CRT shaders, get a raw look like modern pixel art games, or use some ugly filters (like HQx or xBRZ) to have a more modern look.

It's already too many choices

So, yes, when I finished "Metroid: Zero Mission", I get this beautiful image from Samus Aran :

I thought it's the perfect image for trying to have the most natural look

So, I did one last method. What you see on the picture above, is the result of my method n°15


It will be my last this time!




I will post my AviSynth script in the comment section of the videos of each method when I will have more time.


END!

 

[Tams]

OP, why did you post the same video 13 times?

Also, damn you.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Sorry!

 

[SuperLumberjack]

I see that lots of you have voted fo the Method n° 7.

That's great!

This is why your votes are so useful! Thank you very much!

 

[MarkMe2525]

I have relapsed!
But I think it's for the best

In fact, I was a bit frustrated, because I really wanted to find something in between the Method 2 and the Method 12.

But it's complicated, because for who knows AviSynth, we have to imagine what a combination of functions could give as an image. It's a contradiction between a feeling that we are looking for and something logical.

But I think that I achieved what I wanted
For me, it's almost a miracle, because I could easily miss it.

And so, it's strange, because my intuition and my logic met each other at the right time!

And I'm really happy for that!

I think the result is really great, almost disturbing, because it looks modern and old school at the same time

There is this modern look that is great and the depth and the natural that I wanted I think.


Maybe you won't like it, but I will let you judge this

I think that now I definitely have finished!


Don't forget to watch in 4k!




The playlist with all the videos:

Looks great

 

[hemo memo]

 

[SuperLumberjack]

Looks great

Thanks!

Yes, I think I know!

 

[RaduN]

Use emulation (prefferably Retroarch) with proper shader setup and you'll see a lot of improvements over just simply doing...nothing.

Edge AA shader (ex. ScaleFX) + a proper crt shader will do wonders for 240p games.

 

[SuperLumberjack]

But as I said, it's for videos only!

You can't compare with what you are using for playing.

Sometimes, I use CRT shaders too for playing. But for videos on YouTube, it's better to have something a bit more neutral, because some people watch videos on their smartphones, it's not always watched in fullscreen, there is compression, etc.