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Boeing: Outsourcing the 787 cost us between $12-$18 billion and 3 years of delays

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ronito

Member
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sundaybuzz/2014125414_sundaybuzz06.html

In a late January appearance at Seattle University, Boeing Commercial Airplanes Chief Jim Albaugh talked about the lessons learned from the disastrous three years of delays on the 787 Dreamliner.

One bracing lesson that Albaugh was unusually candid about: the 787's global outsourcing strategy — specifically intended to slash Boeing's costs — backfired completely.

"We spent a lot more money in trying to recover than we ever would have spent if we'd tried to keep the key technologies closer to home,"
Albaugh told his large audience of students and faculty.

Boeing was forced to compensate, support or buy out the partners it brought in to share the cost of the new jet's development, and now bears the brunt of additional costs due to the delays.

Some Wall Street analysts estimate those added costs at between $12 billion and $18 billion, on top of the $5 billion Boeing originally planned to invest.

Interviewed after the Seattle U. talk, Albaugh avoided directly criticizing the decisions of his predecessors.

The 787 outsourcing strategy was put place in 2003 by then-Boeing Chairman Harry Stonecipher, who was ousted in 2005, and Commercial Airplanes Chief Alan Mulally, now chief executive at Ford.

"It's easy to look in the rear-view mirror and see things that could have been done differently," Albaugh said. "I wasn't sitting in the room and I don't know what they were facing."

And yet, at least one senior technical engineer within Boeing predicted the outcome of the extensive outsourcing strategy with remarkable foresight a decade ago.

Albaugh and other senior leaders within Boeing may be belatedly paying attention to a paper presented at an internal company symposium in 2001 by John Hart-Smith, a world-renowned airplane structures engineer.

Hart-Smith, who had worked for Douglas Aircraft and joined Boeing when it merged in 1997 with McDonnell Douglas, was one of the elite engineers designated within the company as Senior Technical Fellows.

His paper was a biting critique of excessive outsourcing, a warning to Boeing not to go down the path that had led Douglas Aircraft to virtual obsolescence by the mid-1990s.

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The paper laid out the extreme risks of outsourcing core technology and predicted it would bring massive additional costs and require Boeing to buy out partners who could not perform.

Albaugh said in the interview that he read the paper six or seven years ago, and conceded that it had "a lot of good points" and was "pretty prescient."

In his talk at Seattle U., the first specific lesson Albaugh cited as learned from the 787 debacle seemed to echo Hart-Smith's paper.

Albaugh said that part of what had led Boeing astray was the chasing of a financial measure called RONA, for Return on Net Assets.

This is essentially a ratio of income to assets and one way to make that ratio bigger is to reduce your assets. The drive to increase RONA thus spurred a push within Boeing to do less work in-house — hence reducing assets in the form of facilities and employees — and have others do the work.

Hart-Smith argued that it was wrong to use that financial measure as a gauge of performance and that outsourcing would only slash profits and hollow out the company.

Reached by phone in his native Australia, where at 70 he is now retired, Hart-Smith said he'd heard in recent months on the grapevine from former colleagues that senior executives at Boeing Commercial Airplanes have been reading his paper.

"I'm glad they got the message," Hart-Smith said. "It took far too long."

After he presented his paper at a company symposium in 2001, he received hundreds of supportive e-mails from engineers and lower-level managers, he said.

But a senior executive present at the symposium spent a half-hour after his presentation attacking the paper, and afterward Boeing leadership ignored Hart-Smith.

He had hoped to join the 787 program but wasn't permitted to do so. He felt sidelined, he said.

In Hart-Smith's analysis, the seeds of Boeing's outsourcing ideas grew out of the McDonnell aircraft business, which focused on military-airplane programs. On the military side of the business, the U.S. government was the major, often the only, customer and it funded development costs in full.

"The military approach didn't require you to risk your own money," Hart-Smith said. "That was the McDonnell Douglas mentality."

He blamed that attitude for the major outsourcing on the MD-95 and proposed MD-12 programs, the failure of which led to the decline of Douglas' commercial-airplane business in California.

The same ideas were transferred to Boeing with the McDonnell Douglas merger and led directly to the 787 outsourcing strategy, he said.

Taken to its extreme conclusion, Hart-Smith said mockingly, the strategy of maximizing return on net assets could lead Boeing to outsource everything except a little Boeing decal to slap on the nose of the finished airplane.

Though most of the profits would be outsourced to suppliers along with all the work, and all the company's expertise would wither away, the return on investment in a 25-cent decal could be 5,000 percent.

Has Boeing belatedly seen the light and embraced Hart-Smith's analysis?

Clearly the 787 has brought a serious rethink at the top.

"We went too much with outsourcing," Albaugh said in the interview. "Now we need to bring it back to a more prudent level."

That likely includes building the horizontal tails of the next version of the Dreamliner, the 787-9, in the Seattle area. And for the next all-new airplane that Boeing will build, Albaugh vows that "we can do things differently and better."

"Doing the new airplane the way we did this one is not what we want to do."

But the rethink may not be as radical as Hart-Smith would like.

In his paper he wrote that while some selective outsourcing is necessary, Boeing should keep most of the work it has traditionally done in-house.

Albaugh balked at going that far.

"I haven't said keep most of the work in-house," Albaugh said. "I still believe we need to make sure we try to access the best technologies and capabilities that are available around the world."

And despite what Hart-Smith has heard on the grapevine, no one from Boeing's leadership has actually called him up to talk about his analysis.

Hart-Smith retired from Boeing in 2008. He still presents engineering papers at academic conferences around the world.

Yet that startlingly prescient 2001 paper focused on business economics. Where did a structures engineer get that kind of expertise?

"It's common sense,"
Hart-Smith said.
Shocking just shocking.

Honestly though, being a consultant and having been at all different sorts of companies in all sorts of different industries I can honestly say I've seen one, maybe two, instances where outsourcing a lot has really worked. Almost always it's either turned into a disaster, or was so inefficient that they didn't save anything. Looks like Boeing learned their lesson, maybe. But we'll have to see if others follow suit.
 

Aselith

Member
ronito said:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sundaybuzz/2014125414_sundaybuzz06.html


Shocking just shocking.

Honestly though, being a consultant and having been at all different sorts of companies in all sorts of different industries I can honestly say I've seen one, maybe two, instances where outsourcing a lot has really worked. Almost always it's either turned into a disaster, or was so inefficient that they didn't save anything. Looks like Boeing learned their lesson, maybe. But we'll have to see if others follow suit.

It doesn't seem like Boeing learned their lesson if they're keeping most of their stuff outsourced.
 

golem

Member
"I haven't said keep most of the work in-house," Albaugh said. "I still believe we need to make sure we try to access the best technologies and capabilities that are available around the world."
LOL outsourcing is never about that.
 

Wads

Banned
I can't wait till these companies finally see the light. Outsourcing in my experience is absolutely awful and usually is more of a detriment to the company than any savings (if any due to longer length to completion)...

I read something about some companies scaling back on it, but I would assume that was short-lived since it seems just as prevalent now. Anyway, I worked with many a outsourced workers and 99% of the time it was terrible.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Wads said:
I can't wait till these companies finally see the light. Outsourcing in my experience is absolutely awful and usually is more of a detriment to the company than any savings (if any due to longer length to completion)...

I read something about some companies scaling back on it, but I would assume that was short-lived since it seems just as prevalent now. Anyway, I worked with many a outsourced workers and 99% of the time it was terrible.
Outsourcing only works well in very specific cases from what I've experienced. Using it wholesale to reduce staff/cut costs as opposed to, say, using it to add production capacity w/ proper oversight, that's a huge difference. And even then it's very dependent on industry.
 
But private projects never go above cost or are ever late.

Surely the socialist Obama government is responsible for this boondoggle.
 

loosus

Banned
While there are some definite benefits to some types of outsourcing (i.e., tasks that your company really isn't in the business of doing to begin with), why would you even try to outsource key components? I mean, doesn't it get to a place where, if every other company is doing the bulk of the actual mechanics, your company really doesn't need to exist, anymore, since you're essentially nothing more than a paper, holding company?

Just seems like, in extreme cases, you'd potentially outsource yourself out of business.
 

Igo

Member
Do Boeing even have all the talent required to do it all in house? It doesn't sound like the designs and IP were all theirs and that's why they have to buy up these companies when they fall behind.
 

loosus

Banned
Igo said:
Do Boeing even have all the talent required to do it all in house? It doesn't sound like the designs and IP were all theirs and that's why they have to buy up these companies when they fall behind.
They probably don't have the talent, anymore. There's a definite brain drain from outsourcing or simply not doing things, anymore (even if the reason is not outsourcing, per se).

Even if you can hire new talent to do things in-house again, it's almost like starting from scratch. Nothing beats having experienced, long-term talent that sticks with a company over a long period of time. Outsourcing and excessive turnover kill internal knowledge.
 

ronito

Member
Roude Leiw said:
and thats why such companies should only be run by managers who started as engineers.
bah I don't believe that at all.
It sounds like something an engineer would say.

Honestly some engineers can be good leaders but many can't. It's just a different skill set. I used to be a fan of this kind of thinking, but I got it knocked out of me. Really a good leader with some commonsense and the ability to listen to his engineers and other companies that tried the approach would be more than capable to have side stepped this pretty obvious minefield. It doesn't require an engineer to tell you that.
 

Tarazet

Member
Though most of the profits would be outsourced to suppliers along with all the work, and all the company's expertise would wither away, the return on investment in a 25-cent decal could be 5,000 percent.

Someone needs to work on their math. I'm pretty sure someone selling a plane would net more than $12.50.
 
Reading this, it makes you wonder if they thought the successful construction of the 777 meant that outsourcing was now a legitimate aid in construction and just ran with that train of thought.
Their design plan always struck me (once i started to actually learn the concepts behind the plan in college) as reaching for the stars. Especially considering the composite technologies they were pioneering and its inclusion into the Dreamliner design plan.
 

Aselith

Member
Tarazet said:
Someone needs to work on their math. I'm pretty sure someone selling a plane would net more than $12.50.

Do you not understand what a decal is or does decal mean something different for Boeing?
 

teh_pwn

"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
Yeah, a lot of companies make the mistake of assuming that outsourcing is somehow free money. This is especially true with tech and engineering. Sure you could outsource your software development to some random group of people in India, but what happens when you need maintenance releases? To expand the product? Chances are not a single person that developed the first release will remain, making it extremely expensive to maintain a product on time. With software development, being familiar with the code and it's design makes you dozens of times more productive.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Roude Leiw said:
and thats why such companies should only be run by managers who started as engineers.
Disagree completely if that's the sole requirement. It's why the gaming industry is such a mess, too many companies are putting people into lead/manager roles simply because of them being good in their particular discipline - being an awesome modeler or designer or programmer does not mean you'll also be an awesome lead artist, lead designer, or lead engineer.

Good managers have a particular skillset in terms of planning, analysis, people skills, and leadership. Not everyone is necessarily capable or suited to being one, and it's better to have a good non-technical manager that's (and this is key for most tech-related fields) paired up with a good technical lead/supervisor than it is to have a solo manager who is technical that got the title through seniority/promotion but has mediocre management skills because all they've been doing is work in their discipline with no real opportunity to learn the right additional skillset.
 

Tarazet

Member
Aselith said:
Do you not understand what a decal is or does decal mean something different for Boeing?

The way it's worded suggests that they're expecting 50x profit just on the 25 cent decal.
 

Aselith

Member
Tarazet said:
The way it's worded suggests that they're expecting 50x profit just on the 25 cent decal.

That's how it's meant to read as far as I can tell. I would assume they're getting that figure based on cost of materials to manufacture the decal versus what Boeing charges to livery a plane. Obviously, not every component is going to have that kind of profit attached but it's just an example.

You can't possibly think they make 50x profit on the entire plane, can you?
 

Tarazet

Member
Aselith said:
That's how it's meant to read as far as I can tell. I would assume they're getting that figure based on cost of materials to manufacture the decal versus what Boeing charges to livery a plane. Obviously, not every component is going to have that kind of profit attached but it's just an example.

You can't possibly think they make 50x profit on the entire plane, can you?

No, of course not. But you'd have to sell a lot of those 25 cent decals to make any kind of decent money. That would be far too many planes, my friend.
 

Aselith

Member
Tarazet said:
No, of course not. But you'd have to sell a lot of those 25 cent decals to make any kind of decent money. That would be far too many planes, my friend.

Yeah, they're outsourcing components though. So, it's an example of a component. Like a number 1 might be a decal at that profit but a single plane has hundreds of decals maybe thousands and there also very large decals like the company livery. Warning signs and stuff like that would also be decals. Plus, Boeing doesn't just make 777's and stuff. They make other aircraft as well.

Not to mention selling sheets of replacement decals etc.
 
My dad's company outsourced some stuff this year

Costed them millions of dollars and ended up taking longer and being more expensive than doing it in-house. It caused the company to have to close one of their branches because they lost so much money from the outsourcing. The guy who came up with the idea was found to have fudged the (internal) numbers to make it seem better, and was asked to leave.

My dad also had to do bi-weekly trips to the factory, which costed the company almost a thousand dollars each time he did this, and this was for 3 months.


Companies need to realize that cheap labor doesn't always equal more profit...
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
My brother has told me stories of what a nightmare outsourcing was from back when he was a programmer. A lot of the coding for his firm got outsourced to India, and thus his company could slash a lot of jobs, but my brother was in a critical position that couldn't really be cut. Unfortunately, what they got back from India was a sloppy, buggy mess, and so the people who were left were dealt the job of going through massive piles of code to figure out just how much got screwed up. I don't know much about coding, but I am darn well familiar with what a pain in the butt it is to clean up other peoples' mistakes.
 

LCfiner

Member
I work at a tech company that has used outsourcing in varying degrees. it's generally been effective when used to complete the work that we don't necessarily want to do in house, like detailed drawings. whenever departments in the company have asked for real design from an offshore subcontractor, results have been subpar and require rework in house to bring up to standards.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Corporate executives are simultaneously the smartest and dumbest people in the world. The ones I have met have had elite degrees and are very sharp people. But I definitely noticed a trend that they like to latch on to a few of these trendy corporate-speak ideas and like this RONA bullshit and they never stop to evaluate if it makes sense.

But as to the other discussion, I definitely error on the side of technical people being in charge of technical companies. You don't know what kind of scumbag you are going to get if you hire like a Harvard MBA. Better to have an incompetent boss than a fucking criminal.
 

I3rand0

Member
teh_pwn said:
Yeah, a lot of companies make the mistake of assuming that outsourcing is somehow free money. This is especially true with tech and engineering. Sure you could outsource your software development to some random group of people in India, but what happens when you need maintenance releases? To expand the product? Chances are not a single person that developed the first release will remain, making it extremely expensive to maintain a product on time. With software development, being familiar with the code and it's design makes you dozens of times more productive.
Agreed. This is the problem I've seen working in health care now the past few years. Too much outsourcing and not enough internal knowledge of controls, processes, etc. Outsourcing only saves money in the short term and almost always never works.
 

andycapps

Member
After he presented his paper at a company symposium in 2001, he received hundreds of supportive e-mails from engineers and lower-level managers, he said.

But a senior executive present at the symposium spent a half-hour after his presentation attacking the paper, and afterward Boeing leadership ignored Hart-Smith.

This sounds pretty typical of most management. Upper senior executives that have typically been brought over from other industries or companies and aren't familiar with the ins and outs of the business end up having deciding votes in things they don't know about.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Igo said:
Do EADS even have a chance to win this after all the nonsense we've already seen?

Likely not. They'll lose and then they'll protest the decision, where it will then maybe go back to square one if they're lucky, but probably won't.
 
loosus said:
While there are some definite benefits to some types of outsourcing (i.e., tasks that your company really isn't in the business of doing to begin with), why would you even try to outsource key components? I mean, doesn't it get to a place where, if every other company is doing the bulk of the actual mechanics, your company really doesn't need to exist, anymore, since you're essentially nothing more than a paper, holding company?

Just seems like, in extreme cases, you'd potentially outsource yourself out of business.


$$$$ They will outsource every job they can but their own if it will increase profits. In the end they dont outsource their own company because the upper level management keeps their jobs. But they dont seem to understand that when you have an entire country of greedy managers outsourcing jobs they are actually outsourcing each others customers.

Their former customers dont have jobs anymore to buy their products and in most instances (like say the benefits processing company where my gf works) India and Mauritius are not going to be coming to them for their benefits processing needs.

What do you want to bet these same managers at Boeing never missed a quarterly bonus check?
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
loosus said:
They probably don't have the talent, anymore. There's a definite brain drain from outsourcing or simply not doing things, anymore (even if the reason is not outsourcing, per se).

Even if you can hire new talent to do things in-house again, it's almost like starting from scratch. Nothing beats having experienced, long-term talent that sticks with a company over a long period of time. Outsourcing and excessive turnover kill internal knowledge.


wait wait what happened to the shit load of people they had working on the JSF and unmanned air drone programs for the military they were lockheed and northrops only real competition back then. They seemed pretty stacked at the time. They fire/lay off that many people over the years???
 
Sounds like my job, although it's not nearly as bad here. A lot of work has been outsourced to a company in India instead of hiring new developers here. And I mean a lot. I think the size of the team there is at least half the size of the current team here. Almost everything they do has to be reviewed far more thoroughly than what local people create and a lot has to be rewritten. Then there's the problem of trying to work together with them when the working hours are almost completely opposite. Then there's the costs of flying our people there, flying their people here, and so forth.

I obviously don't have access to the numbers but I can't see this being very cost effective or efficient.
 

ronito

Member
Hari Seldon said:
Corporate executives are simultaneously the smartest and dumbest people in the world. The ones I have met have had elite degrees and are very sharp people. But I definitely noticed a trend that they like to latch on to a few of these trendy corporate-speak ideas and like this RONA bullshit and they never stop to evaluate if it makes sense.
OMG this. So much this.

I've had the opportunity to see a lot of executives at work and I also get the impression that they're amongst the smartest/dumbest people you'll ever meet. Really I think they let themselves the get caught in the traps of yes men and power. Someone tells them something will work and they just get caught in this echo chamber about it.

The best CEOs I've met spend their time amongst their workers so when someone comes up with a crazy idea they can call bullshit.
 
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