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[FireFly]

Good post. But I never said that vaccination is not the cause. Of course, vaccination has a very large part to do with the fact that infections are milder (and btw, also compared to delta, whether vaccinated or not), which I just pointed out. The numbers were already VERY clear last week and it was apparent that further studies would only confirm this. You can also simply compare the figures directly yourself and don't have to wait every time for "studies" that ultimately only evaluate exactly these numbers, that are already available for days or even weeks. It really is true that the data is available to everyone way before "studies" (which are often only evaluations of already known data) come out, but many people no longer have the imagination (or they're just dumb) to look at the numbers themselves.

I'm perfectly comfortable saying it again, and you're welcome to quote me on that next year: The pandemic ends in 2022. A regularly modified vaccination that protects against flu and coronaviruses at the same time will be the gold standard against seasonal outbreaks.

The numbers showed that the hospitalisation rate for the Omicron wave was less than the Delta wave. The question was whether this was due to:

1.) More of the Omicron infections being re-infections, which are expected to be milder due to existing immunity
2.) Increased immunity in the population due vaccination/infections

or:

3.) Omicron being "inherently" milder

At a population level, the first 2 causes will lead to better outcomes, without lowering the risk that each individual faces.

 

[Clear]

The numbers showed that the hospitalisation rate for the Omicron wave was less than the Delta wave. The question was whether this was due to:

1.) More of the Omicron infections being re-infections, which are expected to be milder due to existing immunity
2.) Increased immunity in the population due vaccination/infections

or:

3.) Omicron being "inherently" milder

At a population level, the first 2 causes will lead to better outcomes, without lowering the risk that each individual faces.

Which was why the report from the HK University researchers showing greater affinity for upper respiratory tissue over lower in terms of viral growth was so important.
It demonstrated a plausible mechanism whereby greater transmission was achieved at a cost of lower lethality, furthermore it tallied with reports out of SA that paradoxically claimed that Omicron was just as virulent as Delta and the previous strains, but posed a far lesser risk to health and hospitalization.

 

[betrayal]

I’ll quote you on that

I count on you!

The numbers showed that the hospitalisation rate for the Omicron wave was less than the Delta wave. The question was whether this was due to:

1.) More of the Omicron infections being re-infections, which are expected to be milder due to existing immunity
2.) Increased immunity in the population due vaccination/infections

or:

3.) Omicron being "inherently" milder

At a population level, the first 2 causes will lead to better outcomes, without lowering the risk that each individual faces.

All 3 i guess, but 1+2 are most important. I remember on study the risk for unvaccinated is 10 - 30% lower for hospitalization.

 

[FireFly]

Which was why the report from the HK University researchers showing greater affinity for upper respiratory tissue over lower in terms of viral growth was so important.
It demonstrated a plausible mechanism whereby greater transmission was achieved at a cost of lower lethality, furthermore it tallied with reports out of SA that paradoxically claimed that Omicron was just as virulent as Delta and the previous strains, but posed a far lesser risk to health and hospitalization.

It's nice to have a plausible mechanism for 3.), but we still need to disentangle the effects of 1.) and 2.), which is where the statistical analysis comes in.

 

[Clear]

It's nice to have a plausible mechanism for 3.), but we still need to disentangle the effects of 1.) and 2.), which is where the statistical analysis comes in.

Yeah, but points 1 & 2 are somewhat entangled. For instance the SA population seems more primed by naturally acquired immunity than by vaccination, whereas the reverse is true in Europe, the US, and other wealthier nations. However the relative value is kinda moot if the only response is to mandate further vaccination!

In simple terms if multiple vaccinations is better then the present hysteria overstates the degree of threat, but if natural immunity is better then targetted protection of vulnerable cohorts while letting the virus spread and confer natural immunity across the broad population - especially given the opportunity presented by what appears thus far to be a milder strain of Covid - seems more rational.

Neither scenario is ideal, but both are a whole lot less dire than what the prophets of doom are trumpeting!

Also, why is noone talking about Japan? Because the figures from there are quite staggeringly low. Is it coyness over the fact that the ramp-down in hospitalizations started the week after the Japanese authorities liberalized the prescription of Ivermectin? A correlation that doesn't imply causation but again its another strange coincidence that we're told to pay no heed to...

 

[FireFly]

Yeah, but points 1 & 2 are somewhat entangled. For instance the SA population seems more primed by naturally acquired immunity than by vaccination, whereas the reverse is true in Europe, the US, and other wealthier nations. However the relative value is kinda moot if the only response is to mandate further vaccination!

In simple terms if multiple vaccinations is better then the present hysteria overstates the degree of threat, but if natural immunity is better then targetted protection of vulnerable cohorts while letting the virus spread and confer natural immunity across the broad population - especially given the opportunity presented by what appears thus far to be a milder strain of Covid - seems more rational.

Topping up vaccinations with natural immunity from infections was pretty much the strategy already adopted by the UK. That was fine for Delta, since cases were stable. The issue with Omicron is that if cases keep doubling, the hospitalisation numbers will keep doubling too. So even if say the hospitalisation rate for Omicron is 1/3 of that for the Delta wave, the absolute number of hospitalisations will be equivalent with only 2 doublings. So really it's a question of where Omicron is going to peak. If it peaks at a few hundred thousand daily cases, that's probably ok. If it peaks at 1 million+, probably not.

 

[12Goblins]

Am I doing this right?


Also, what about all the reports of sportsmen collapsing? We have Christian Eriksen (Now retired), Sergio Aguero (Now retired) both due to "new heart problems". Victor Lindelof for Man Utd also went down clutching his chest the other week, and reports are that hes now wearing a heart monitor.

Then there's also Adama Traore, Charlie Wyke, John Fleck and more. Plus its not just footballers, Emma Raducanu had to quit her Tennis match at Wimbledon and I've heard of hockey players and others collapsing during games or training.

Related? Coincidence?

In the many years I've watched football (soccer), I can only remember Marc Vivien Foe & Fabrice Muamba who had similar or worse incidents. I don't believe it's the "Pace of the game has increased", that's total nonsense but it's what I've heard to be the cause.

 

[Rentahamster]

Good post. But I never said that vaccination is not the cause. Of course, vaccination has a very large part to do with the fact that infections are milder (and btw, also compared to delta, whether vaccinated or not), which I just pointed out.

Thank you. If you were trying to convey that vaccination is not the cause, you did a bad job. "Of course, vaccination has a very large part" is not implied in your post at all, and since your post is trying to rebut my post that does imply vaccination (among other things) might be a factor, it sounds like you're trying to make an argument for Omicron's intrinsic danger being less than other variants.

"Even if it turns out that omicron leads to less death"...

Stop. This. Shit. Like really.

We already know, it is less deadly. That's a given. A fact. There's nothing to argue about that, and it's not going to change in a few weeks or months.

You are specifically saying that we already know "it" (Omicron) is less deadly, not that the Omicron wave coincides with relatively less hospitalizations. "Omicron is less deadly" is not a fact, yet, and there is still plenty to argue about.

The numbers were already VERY clear last week and it was apparent that further studies would only confirm this. You can also simply compare the figures directly yourself and don't have to wait every time for "studies" that ultimately only evaluate exactly these numbers, that are already available for days or even weeks. It really is true that the data is available to everyone way before "studies" (which are often only evaluations of already known data) come out, but many people no longer have the imagination (or they're just dumb) to look at the numbers themselves.

No, I can't simply compare the figures directly for myself because as a layperson in a different country I am unable to do the statistical analysis that is necessary to reduce the effects of the confounding variables. It could be exactly what we think or want it to be, it could be the opposite, or it could be somewhere in between. Until then, it does no good to selectively quote people saying that the early data looks promising when they have some really big and important "BUTs" that you leave out.

People thinking they have the imagination or the expertise to crunch numbers that require advanced statistical modeling is what leads to bad conclusions that are unsupported.

I'm perfectly comfortable saying it again, and you're welcome to quote me on that next year: The pandemic ends in 2022. A regularly modified vaccination that protects against flu and coronaviruses at the same time will be the gold standard against seasonal outbreaks.

I would like that to be the case as well, but we will see.

 

[Rentahamster]

Which was why the report from the HK University researchers showing greater affinity for upper respiratory tissue over lower in terms of viral growth was so important.
It demonstrated a plausible mechanism whereby greater transmission was achieved at a cost of lower lethality, furthermore it tallied with reports out of SA that paradoxically claimed that Omicron was just as virulent as Delta and the previous strains, but posed a far lesser risk to health and hospitalization.

It's a good sign, but it's not conclusive either. It's an ex vivo experiment. There's only 2 data points (24h and 48h). There's also something about the units that I don't understand, but people smarter than me have a problem with it, so I'll defer to them.

 

[Rentahamster]

In simple terms if multiple vaccinations is better then the present hysteria overstates the degree of threat, but if natural immunity is better then targetted protection of vulnerable cohorts while letting the virus spread and confer natural immunity across the broad population - especially given the opportunity presented by what appears thus far to be a milder strain of Covid - seems more rational.

It is extremely unlikely that a course of action that emphasizes natural infection over vaccination is every going to be "more rational". That would be historically unprecedented. In what world is "natural immunity" ever going to be better than vaccination when "natural immunity" requires you to get infected with the actual disease you're trying to avoid? If the goal is to prevent infection, you have a 100% failure rate baked into the strategy from the start! Completely irrational and a terrible risk/reward proposition.

Also, why is noone talking about Japan?

I talk about Japan a lot.

Because the figures from there are quite staggeringly low.

Yes. Good on them for having a robust healthcare system that actually takes care of people in a timely manner and doesn't threaten their citizens with bankruptcy. Good on them for rolling out a vaccination program that has surpassed the rest of the world even though most other first world countries had a massive head start. Good on them for having a populace that has enough social responsibility and common sense to voluntarily get vaccinated and wear masks and social distance and otherwise be responsible to both themselves and their community. Good on them for being a relatively non-obese country with decent fitness levels. Good on them for having one of the lowest incidences of COVID19 in the world despite having one of the highest average ages, while the rest of the world stumbles through this pandemic.

Is it coyness over the fact that the ramp-down in hospitalizations started the week after the Japanese authorities liberalized the prescription of Ivermectin? A correlation that doesn't imply causation but again its another strange coincidence that we're told to pay no heed to...

No, because that's BS. First of all, Japanese authorities didn't "liberalize" the prescription of IVM. All that happened was one dude made a press release saying that they should use it more. Second of all, there is no correlation because he spoke multiple times about IVM without there being a later effect on case numbers. That's why no one's paying heed to it. It's bullshit.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[Clear]

It is extremely unlikely that a course of action that emphasizes natural infection over vaccination is every going to be "more rational". That would be historically unprecedented. In what world is "natural immunity" ever going to be better than vaccination when "natural immunity" requires you to get infected with the actual disease you're trying to avoid? If the goal is to prevent infection, you have a 100% failure rate baked into the strategy from the start! Completely irrational and a terrible risk/reward proposition.

Its more rational because its a form of triage where the people most at risk are offered maximum protection. Also what's the logic in engaging in a vast and costly program not only of mass vaccination, but encouragement/enforcement of vaccination with all the social anxiety that entails, if its not going to confer a substantial benefit in both the short and long term?

 

[Rentahamster]

Its more rational because its a form of triage where the people most at risk are offered maximum protection.

Is vaccination supply currently a problem in the USA? Is it hard to get one if one wants one? Are we currently in a situation where triage is necessary?

Also what's the logic in engaging in a vast and costly program not only of mass vaccination, but encouragement/enforcement of vaccination with all the social anxiety that entails, if its not going to confer a substantial benefit in both the short and long term?

There is a huge substantial benefit.

Vaccines prevented up to 140,000 COVID-19 deaths in U.S.

A study estimated that COVID-19 vaccinations prevented nearly 140,000 deaths in the U.S. by May 2021.

www.nih.gov

• A study estimated that COVID-19 vaccinations prevented nearly 140,000 deaths in the U.S. by May 2021.

That's a lot of people. It could have been more if we'd have gotten more people vaccinated.


What's the logic in wanting to infect people with a disease that we don't want them to contract?

 

[Clear]

What's the logic in wanting to infect people with a disease that we don't want them to contract?

Noone wants to be infected, but the way I see it right now you have as much chance of avoiding exposure to covid as you have to avoiding the common cold. In fact in the UK Omicron is already outcompeting the common cold.

The rubicon where we had the chance of driving this virus to extinction has long since passed. Game over.

The virus won, and now the only question is how we choose to coexist with it.

 

[Rentahamster]

Noone wants to be infected, but the way I see it right now you have as much chance of avoiding exposure to covid as you have to avoiding the common cold. In fact in the UK Omicron is already outcompeting the common cold.

The rubicon where we had the chance of driving this virus to extinction has long since passed. Game over.

The virus won, and now the only question is how we choose to coexist with it.

That doesn't answer my question.

Yes, omicron is spreading like crazy. How does that translate into favoring "natural infection" over vaccination?
Our primary window of opportunity has passed because we didn't vaccinate quickly enough. However, it is not game over yet.
The virus didn't win anything. We coexist with it by vaccinating as many people as possible so that the virus doesn't have new fertile ground to spread to.

What's the logic in wanting to infect people with a disease that we don't want them to contract?

 

[jufonuk]

Noone wants to be infected, but the way I see it right now you have as much chance of avoiding exposure to covid as you have to avoiding the common cold. In fact in the UK Omicron is already outcompeting the common cold.

The rubicon where we had the chance of driving this virus to extinction has long since passed. Game over.

The virus won, and now the only question is how we choose to coexist with it.

If you have a cold in the U.K. there is 50% chance it’s covid.

 

[poppabk]

What's the logic in wanting to infect people with a disease that we don't want them to contract?

I like to get my Chinese designed RNA - mutated in foreign countries, suspended in phlegm droplets, and then coughed into my lungs like nature intended.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Anyone else here feeling a little let down about how covid has just wrecked humans in this battle even with the vaccines? And I want to just go "oh the anti vaxxers fucked us over" but it seems like its infecting the vaccinated just as easy from what I've read. I got my booster last week with my gf and haven't caught it yet to my knowledge since the start of the pandemic but I don't know it just feels defeating?

Unless I'm wrong the Spanish flu was already on its way out by now. I mean the fact that the world is breaking records for highest ever cases since the start even in highly vaccinated countries is just insane to me. I mean what more can we do? And now I catch myself checking the news again (haven't done this or cared about covid since late 2020 even through the overblown delta wave) and I find myself uneasy again in the gym and restaurants like its early 2020. I mean what the fuck? I don't know guys.

And yes I'm aware this wave will die off in January, yes I'm aware that socially the pandemic has died off by and large, I mean look at spider mans box office or just go outside to any public venue what so ever. And yes I'm aware deaths and hospitalizations are actually in decline globally (seriously go check world meters) and have remained low as fuck relative to the infection rates. But these case numbers are ridiculously high for a post vaccine society. Just feels deflating I don't know.

My gf has even started to challenge me cause she went a wedding with a bunch of southern ignorant unvaccinated fucks (she is not one) and I kinda got nervous and expressed some concern and it was like a "woah babe wait you're worried about this again?" Kinda thing and I had to catch myself cause I've always been a anti alarmist anti freaking out over cases kinda guy.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Just had to get that off my chest its been bothering me.

 

[Clear]

Because its inevitable.

Its not a matter of wanting it to happen, its about managing the consequences of infection which is why the severity of the illness inflicted is a game changer.
Current vaccines are too leaky and we're never going to be able to vaccinate everyone and everything in the world that can act as a natural reservoir where not only can the virus persist, but to mutate. Blaming the unvaccinated is madness.

Just to stress the point: I am not suggesting we stop vaccinations or withhold it from people who want it. I'm saying we refocus on saving the people who are most at risk, and stop trying terrorize everyone else into compliance.

The situation's changed, its time to adjust our perspective because it seems to me right now all we are doing is lining the pockets of big pharma.

 

[Rentahamster]

And I want to just go "oh the anti vaxxers fucked us over" but it seems like its infecting the vaccinated just as easy from what I've read.

It's infecting vaccinated people too, but not just as easy. There's still a difference. Besides, the primary goal of the vaccination is to reduce severe illness and death, which is what it still does very well, even after the infection protection wanes after 4 months.

Math is a tricky thing, and vaccinations are a cumulative effect. Even the best vaccinations in the world won't be maximally effective if there is still a significant pool of unvaccinated people who are serving as a reservoir for the virus to spread and mutate. The more people who are vaccinated, the better off we all are as a community, and 70% isn't going to cut it.

 

[KyoZz]

 

[sinnergy]

It's infecting vaccinated people too, but not just as easy. There's still a difference. Besides, the primary goal of the vaccination is to reduce severe illness and death, which is what it still does very well, even after the infection protection wanes after 4 months.

Math is a tricky thing, and vaccinations are a cumulative effect. Even the best vaccinations in the world won't be maximally effective if there is still a significant pool of unvaccinated people who are serving as a reservoir for the virus to spread and mutate. The more people who are vaccinated, the better off we all are as a community, and 70% isn't going to cut it.

It’s a animal world virus .. it’s in animals .. how are they vaccinating those ? COVID now is here to stay ..

 

[DragoonKain]

Whether you approve or oppose mandates, there's no denying the impact they've had on the population.

Pretty wild.

 

[tommolb]

Because its inevitable.

Its not a matter of wanting it to happen, its about managing the consequences of infection which is why the severity of the illness inflicted is a game changer.
Current vaccines are too leaky and we're never going to be able to vaccinate everyone and everything in the world that can act as a natural reservoir where not only can the virus persist, but to mutate. Blaming the unvaccinated is madness.

Just to stress the point: I am not suggesting we stop vaccinations or withhold it from people who want it. I'm saying we refocus on saving the people who are most at risk, and stop trying terrorize everyone else into compliance.

The situation's changed, its time to adjust our perspective because it seems to me right now all we are doing is lining the pockets of big pharma.

Vaccination is the way forward with Covid, not throwing in the towel, getting defeatist and letting everyone get infected so natural immunity is granted just because of a set-back (Omicron) and stories of waning vaccine protection after 3 months.

For a start, "refocusing" away from vaccinations and letting everyone get it will be hugely disruptive, think all the days off work for a start. Vaccines offer the gain, without the pain. A sore arm and maybe feeling tired for a couple of days vs 5-10 days off work with a "heavy cold". End result's the same in terms of the immunity boost, but I'd know what option I'd prefer TBH!

Actually I'm sure I also read somewhere along the line that vaccines offer better protection than natural infection, against a larger number of variants and this protection lasts longer too..... I could be wrong. I'm sure Google will hold the answer.

I have faith that in time, we'll improve the vaccines to offer better protection against a range of variants, stop onward spread of the virus and make this protection last longer too. The holy grail will be the universal Coronavirus vaccine that offers protection against all current and future variants (based off the unchanging elements of the virus, rather than the spike protein), then that combined with the annual flu vaccines (and given to everyone who wants it) will free us from this nightmare.

 

[Clear]

Vaccination is the way forward with Covid, not throwing in the towel, getting defeatist and letting everyone get infected so natural immunity is granted just because of a set-back (Omicron) and stories of waning vaccine protection after 3 months.

For a start, "refocusing" away from vaccinations and letting everyone get it will be hugely disruptive, think all the days off work for a start. Vaccines offer the gain, without the pain. A sore arm and maybe feeling tired for a couple of days vs 5-10 days off work with a "heavy cold". End result's the same in terms of the immunity boost, but I'd know what option I'd prefer TBH!

Actually I'm sure I also read somewhere along the line that vaccines offer better protection than natural infection, against a larger number of variants and this protection lasts longer too..... I could be wrong. I'm sure Google will hold the answer.

I have faith that in time, we'll improve the vaccines to offer better protection against a range of variants, stop onward spread of the virus and make this protection last longer too. The holy grail will be the universal Coronavirus vaccine that offers protection against all current and future variants (based off the unchanging elements of the virus, rather than the spike protein), then that combined with the annual flu vaccines (and given to everyone who wants it) will free us from this nightmare.

Sorry, but I don't think medicalizing entire populations is sustainable. Especially when its a regime so expensive that only first-world nations can pay for it.

3 shots in 1 year and still not yielding full protection shows that there's a long way to go. Lockdowns and exclusions of vaccine refuseniks are economically unsustainable, and deeply unpopular with those who value civil liberties. A group who will grow increasingly large and vocal as the fear and paranoia the authorities have tried to instil fades due to normalization over time.

Your citation of the current situation with Flu vaccines is precisely the protocol I described as the way forward. We give flu vaccines to the clinically vulnerable and the elderly, we don't look for excuses to give them to everyone, or deny people their livelihoods and liberties because they aren't vaccinated!

Rather than focus on vaccination, how about more investment in treatment capacity* or simple public health? How about doing something about the epidemic of obesity a condition instrumental in bad outcomes for not only Covid, but every other respiratory and cardiovascular disease.

How about more research into auto-immune disorders? Things like the cytokine storms that Covid causes and the actual root of debilitating conditions like "long Covid".

Above all else, the way we've been going is inordinately expensive and that economic dimension matters hugely. Government will have to claw it back somehow, meaning that things that rightfully deserve funding will go without. And then of course there's the whole awful impact on every aspect of people's lives due to economic and employment privation.

*This is should go without saying as already the backlog generated by the last 18 months of disruption is a bill that's going to come due with interest in the next few years. Cancer screenings will have been missed, meaning that stage 1 carcinoma are going to be stage 2 or 3 by the time they are detected. These are the things that are going to cost untold lives and clog up resources over the next decade.

 

[Ionian]

go away

Well Boris ' reaction has been appalling when it comes to closing, reopening and then closing again. The dude is a clown of the highest order. He brushed off getting it, being hospitaized and playing to down again when he recovered. See his christmas announcement? He. Can't make his mind up, nodoubt because he's shitting about staying In power

And then you have Brexit which he changed his mindover from saying its not a good idea to championing it. I'd say he's terrified at getting lynch. Yet its a democracy. Ppfffft

 

[Vestal]

Whether you approve or oppose mandates, there's no denying the impact they've had on the population.

Pretty wild.

A little more context on this graph would be nice

 

[Ionian]

You don’t need math for this but people need to have it explained.. yet there are still people shouting , masks don’t work ..

 

[DragoonKain]

A little more context on this graph would be nice

2021 net population change by state. Should've clarified.

 

[Ionian]

Their biggest spike in deaths was this summer when they were averaging 300+ a day. But with decent vaccine coverage, everything is back to normal.

 

[Vestal]

2021 net population change by state. Should've clarified.

Would you mind supplying the source? Curious to hear some analysis on this.

 

[DragoonKain]

Would you mind supplying the source? Curious to hear some analysis on this.

Got the chart from social media, but it was made using the data from census.

New Vintage 2021 Population Estimates Available for the Nation, States and Puerto Rico

According to estimates and components of change released today, the population of the United States grew in the past year by 392,665, or 0.1%.

www.census.gov

These are the states where most Americans moved in 2021

New US Census Bureau data shows that Texas and Florida gained the most residents between July 2020 and July 2021.

qz.com

 

[Vestal]

Got the chart from social media, but it was made using the data from census.

New Vintage 2021 Population Estimates Available for the Nation, States and Puerto Rico

According to estimates and components of change released today, the population of the United States grew in the past year by 392,665, or 0.1%.

www.census.gov

These are the states where most Americans moved in 2021

New US Census Bureau data shows that Texas and Florida gained the most residents between July 2020 and July 2021.

qz.com

Now I am going to have to go through those two links and see if it lines up.. Not doubting you, but I doubt any of these sorts of graphs posted on social media.

Edit: Read a bit through the census one and it appears to line up.. Some really interesting context on the page regarding the data though.

 

[tommolb]

Sorry, but I don't think medicalizing entire populations is sustainable. Especially when its a regime so expensive that only first-world nations can pay for it.

3 shots in 1 year and still not yielding full protection shows that there's a long way to go. Lockdowns and exclusions of vaccine refuseniks are economically unsustainable, and deeply unpopular with those who value civil liberties. A group who will grow increasingly large and vocal as the fear and paranoia the authorities have tried to instil fades due to normalization over time.

Your citation of the current situation with Flu vaccines is precisely the protocol I described as the way forward. We give flu vaccines to the clinically vulnerable and the elderly, we don't look for excuses to give them to everyone, or deny people their livelihoods and liberties because they aren't vaccinated!

Rather than focus on vaccination, how about more investment in treatment capacity* or simple public health? How about doing something about the epidemic of obesity a condition instrumental in bad outcomes for not only Covid, but every other respiratory and cardiovascular disease.

How about more research into auto-immune disorders? Things like the cytokine storms that Covid causes and the actual root of debilitating conditions like "long Covid".

Above all else, the way we've been going is inordinately expensive and that economic dimension matters hugely. Government will have to claw it back somehow, meaning that things that rightfully deserve funding will go without. And then of course there's the whole awful impact on every aspect of people's lives due to economic and employment privation.

*This is should go without saying as already the backlog generated by the last 18 months of disruption is a bill that's going to come due with interest in the next few years. Cancer screenings will have been missed, meaning that stage 1 carcinoma are going to be stage 2 or 3 by the time they are detected. These are the things that are going to cost untold lives and clog up resources over the next decade.

So you're proposing giving the vaccine to the over 65's only (and other at risk groups), let Covid rampage through the rest of the population unchecked and with no attempt to mitigate (with the economic hit and disruption that'd cause) and hope by doing so it doesn't mutate in such a way it evades the vaccines and spills over into the vulnerable populations?

That too isn't sustainable, cos we tried partial vaccination by vaccinating the 1st World, leaving the 3rd world largely unvaccinated and it did mutate, did evade the vaccines and came back to hit those who felt vaccines would protect them (1st world).

No country on the planet is proposing just letting this virus rip and forgoing vaccinations of the general population and for good reason, 'cos it's not the answer.

We're about to see - probably - a wave of hospitalisations from "it's just a bad cold" Omicron 'cos massive numbers got it at the same time and a small percentage of a big number is still enough to overrun hospitals (evidence : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-record-again-more-than-120000-cases-recorded ). These waves are rolling up and threatening to overwhelm health services in a heavily vaccinated population. Imagine if we stopped mass vaccination as you propose, let vaccine induced immunity fade away in the young and middle aged and let this thing rip, over time we'd be in a bad place with this.

On your point of "3 shots in 1 year and still not yielding full protection" that's cos we're using a vaccine designed for a virus that stopped being dominant a year ago. The virus moved on, the vaccines haven't. Research is progressing into a solution for this, one Google result on this topic is https://www.businessinsider.com/us-...riants-pan-coronavirus-sars-2021-12?r=US&IR=T . if we crack it, that's the solution. Anything else we're doing is simply playing for time.

 

[Vicetrailia]

if we listened to anti vax people we would all be dead. For the last two years they have been using the same excuses, and always being wrong as hell. Everything is always an excuse.

And yet things are way better due to vaccinations.

 

[FireFly]

Ionian

Not sure why you quoted my post. But case numbers in Florida were back to normal when I made that post, and the huge Omicron spike since then only strengthens my point that Florida doesn't have some magical resistance to the virus.

 

[Ionian]

Ionian

Not sure why you quoted my post. But case numbers in Florida were back to normal when I made that post, and the huge Omicron spike since then only strengthens my point that Florida doesn't have some magical resistance to the virus.

I was trying to point it out. Every thing I said is public record. Just have a. Look

My phone is acting up trying to quote these.

Just Google "boris christmas party"

The after "public. Christmas statement". Come back to me then. He's a rat and is terrified on his position.

 

[Mistake]

I like watching Jimmy Dore. This is kind of interesting. People in Japan, please chime in

 

[Rentahamster]

I like watching Jimmy Dore. This is kind of interesting l. People in Japan, please chime in

Mostly inaccurate and grasping at straws by putting undue emphasis on a weak correlation that isn't even a correlation if you include all the data points. See my response to Clear not too long ago in the following post.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/covid-19-thread-no-bitching-about-masks-of-fauci-edition.1608887/page-256#post-265269924

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Cases in Japan surged after the Olympics and then died down. Gee, it must have been due to some drug with no evidence of efficacy that isn't even used in the country and not the end of a super spreader event coinciding with a mass vaccine campaign.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Cases in Japan surged after the Olympics and then died down. Gee, it must have been due to some drug with no evidence of efficacy that isn't even used in the country and not the end of a super spreader event coinciding with a mass vaccine campaign.

Not sure what you are saying, initial cases and this drug treatment after are somehow connected?

 

[Chaplain]

 

[BadBurger]

I like watching Jimmy Dore. This is kind of interesting. People in Japan, please chime in

This guys is a poster child for predatory grifting. He leaves out context all of the time, and cherry picks tidbits of larger, complex statements to drum up outrage and the like. Just google it; people have been rightfully making fun of him in great detail for months now.

Not to mention he has the charisma and engagement of that boring uncle you have who is always trying to convince you to join in whatever brainless multilevel marketing scheme he has recently fell prey to.

 

[Rentahamster]

The jury is still out on if we're seeing less Omicron hospitalizations due to it being intrinsically less dangerous or because of vaccine immunity and prior infection immunity.

 

[Clear]

Mostly inaccurate and grasping at straws by putting undue emphasis on a weak correlation that isn't even a correlation if you include all the data points. See my response to Clear not too long ago in the following post.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/covid-19-thread-no-bitching-about-masks-of-fauci-edition.1608887/page-256#post-265269924

I didn't even respond to your point because (1) it was an aside to what I was talking about generally, and (2) I actually don't know that much about the situation other than the raw numbers of hospitalizations/deaths in Japan being showing basically a flatline since the Delta spike in August.

Its a noteworthy statistic that people seemingly aren't talking about. Just Google the case number graph, the reports for the last 3 months are utterly remarkable especially given the sheer population of Japan and the density of its urban areas.

 

[QSD]

meanwhile our good old friend Jordan Peterson stays winning with more mature and insightful commentary:



someone should stop feeding him apple cider

in other news: merry christmas you filthy animals

 

[sinnergy]

meanwhile our good old friend Jordan Peterson stays winning with more mature and insightful commentary:



someone should stop feeding him apple cider

in other news: merry christmas you filthy animals

Won’t be watching the remake .. I’ll just put on the original

 

[caffeware]

 

[caffeware]

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