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[OttomanScribe]

Ok, wtf. There is no Muslim on Earth who doesn't at least know you stand in a like facing the same direction...

Re: 'praying in the wrong direction'.

This was used by a few people to indicate that Dawlah are US spies... with commentary like 'CIA forgets to teach its stooges to pray towards Mecca'...

What they are doing is called 'sujud al-shukr', the prostration of gratitude. Some of the scholars who Dawlah follow view it as being permissible to make in any direction, unlike regular salat ( ritual prayers), it does not need to face qibla (the direction of Mecca).

So it is not all that suspect, though the fact that many Muslims objected or were confused by it shows to some extent how Dawlah's approach to the Sha'riah is distinct from the mainstream.

 

[MonsterHunter]

The encircled Suluk has been liberated, next is Til Abyad while the Turks sit and watch from the border.

 

[Abinash117]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...355388-11db-11e5-a0fe-dccfea4653ee_story.html

The Kurds who dominated the battle in Kobane have been joined by several Free Syrian Army units. They are fighting as a coalition called Burkan al-Furat, or Euphrates Volcano. Forces with the coalition also have advanced from Kurdish-held territory to the east of Tel Abyad. On Saturday, they encircled the town of Suluk, to the south of Tel Abyad, further pressuring the Islamic State.

The participation of Arab rebels from the Free Syrian Army is important because most of the population of Raqqa province, including Tel Abyad, is Arab, said Aras Xani, a fighter with the Kurdish YPG on the eastern front of the battle.

“More and more Free Syrian Army fighters are taking part because the population of this area is mostly Arab. Arabs and the FSA must play a big role in this operation since it is their homeland,” he said.

Abu Mohanned, a commander with the Free Syrian Army units advancing from the west toward Tel Abyad, said Islamic State fighters had retreated without a fight from many of the villages his forces have taken in their advance on Tel Abyad. “When we meet resistance, we send the coordinates to the coalition, and they carry out airstrikes,” he said

Also I heard that the YPG/FSA captured Suluk and that IS is preventing people from crossing the Turkey border https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq9yY_mC9DY

 

[OttomanScribe]

Sorry to spam posts.

here is a post I wrote about the writing about Dawlah:

https://awillful500.wordpress.com/2...tate-without-writing-about-the-islamic-state/

A spectre emerges on the borders of Western civilisation, it gnaws at the gates, cackles on the horizon, howls from the bushes near the outdoor toilet. That spectre is crap writing about the Islamic State.

Edward Said famously said that one does not need to know anything about the Orient to be an expert, over the past year, a range of writers have set about proving his point in earnest. Case in point: http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...dievalists_reject_technology_modernity.2.html

The article, originally written with a global, rather than IS, focus (full text found here, with the Easter egg of a Tolkein reference in the end http://www.slate.com/articles/techn...dievalists_reject_technology_modernity.2.html) appears to have been shoddily recrafted to fit the ongoing theme. The Islamic State is a hot topic, gore sells.

An editor takes an IR essay peg, written by a professor of engineering and smashes it into an Islamic State shaped hole.

The result is not atypical of the broader trend of articles about the Islamic State. Despite forming the topic of the piece, the author does not actually deal with IS in any substantial way. Dawlatul Islam does not exist in any form other than as an assertion to be rebuffed with ‘the West is right and has always been right’. Modernity too, while mentioned, remains a shaky concept in the article, presented as opposition to ‘medievalism’ (when did ‘medieval’ become something with a singular ‘ism’?).

There seems a startling lack of content to these pieces, as though a bunch of shadows of Samuel Huntington started churning out op-eds at a rate of knots, but forgot to fill in the important bits. Yet such pieces are capable of maintaining an audience, because they reflect the trend.IS are written about without being written about, in the same way that, more generally, IS is talked about without being talked about.

Just as a ‘counter terrorism expert’ can get quoted without expertise, an article can get published without a topic.

The Islamic State is the equivalent of an action movie to journalists. Quick, nasty, gory and with popular appeal but ultimately no substance. Yet the reality is that the Islamic State isn’t a fiction, isn’t some analogy to draw or a barbarian at the gates to remind the people in the market beneath the walls how civilised we all are.

And echoes of that mistake reverberate through IS propaganda, in video releases which might as well have been directed by Michael Bay. Aimed at the West, these videos underline the point; fast cut, cgi, slick edited ‘civilisational conflict’.

Like Osama Bin Laden confirming Huntington’s thesis, IS revels in action movie aesthetic and the imagery of sweeping civilisational warfare. Yet beneath that visage is the smug mockery that comes when walking in on people gossiping about you. Like Abu Dawood, ‘trolling the media’ with a tale of Jake Bilardi as a university reject, the navel gazing of bad journalism is an ongoing joke.

If any of these pieces bothered to engage, they would discover as much, but instead they continue on, talking to themselves, a cacophony of idiocy.

and here is an article taken from a blog I wrote (they literally published it word for word, which I sort of regret):

Believable Fiction as a Beacon in the Fog of War: Easy Falsehoods and ‘the Islamic State’

http://www.amust.com.au/2014/09/bel...of-war-easy-falsehoods-and-the-islamic-state/

and something I wrote that was published in the Guardian regarding conflict between Hizb ut-Tahrir and Dawlah fanboys:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ir-theyre-not-isis-theyre-isiss-whipping-boys

 

[TCRS]

ISIS forcing refugees to turn back while being watched by Turkish soldiers:

damn...

 

[Stereogatari]

The encircled Suluk has been liberated, next is Til Abyad while the Turks sit and watch from the border.

What should the Turks do? Waste lives of their soldiers in a fight that isn't theirs? They've already lost enough young men who were ambushed by the PKK.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The Turkish gov. don't really seem to view Dawlah as strategic opponents. They have done so little to counter the group that many on the ground believe they are actively involved in supporting them.

 

[Xando]

What should the Turks do? Waste lives of their soldiers in a fight that isn't theirs? They've already lost enough young men who were ambushed by the PKK.

What makes you think ISIS won't attack turkey as soon as they're done with assad? Imo it will become their fight soon.

 

[OttomanScribe]

What makes you think ISIS won't attack turkey as soon as they're done with assad? Imo it will become their fight soon.

Turkey doesn't have the kind of factors at play that existed in Iraq and Syria, it is a whole other kettle of fish. The Turkish army is vast, and would have every advantage against a Dawlah incursion: defensive terrain, friendly populace, superior weaponry and superior numbers. The kind of insurgent tactics that Dawlah used against the US wouldn't work in Turkey.

They might try but they'd be crazy to.

Also I don't know if being 'done with Assad' would mean they'd be done with Syria... even if the SAA and Assad fell they would still be at war there.

 

[Stereogatari]

The Turkish gov. don't really seem to view Dawlah as strategic opponents. They have done so little to counter the group that many on the ground believe they are actively involved in supporting them.

People that think Turkey supports ISIS, are morons. Not even the average anti-government Turkish opinion thinks that.

Turkey, America and the UK are supporting non-ISIS rebels. They want to replace the pro-Russian Syrian government with a pro-Western one, and Turkey in particular wants a pro-Turkish government that will be allow Syria to be ripe for Turkish companies to economically colonise.

How supporting ISIS will achieve these aims I don't know. I don't know why people on the ground would think Turkey support ISIS (except Kurdish nationalists I suppose). In the West I guess the average "Turkey supports ISIS" moron knows that the Turkish government are religious, sees that ISIS are religious and thinks Erdogan wants to be the head of a new Caliphate? Dipshit R/WorldNews mentality.

What makes you think ISIS won't attack turkey as soon as they're done with assad? Imo it will become their fight soon.

Iraq and Syria were already open zoos that were prime for ISIS to infest. Turkey is a Western-style nation-state. I will use these explicit words to explain it; think of Turkey like a first-world White country in this potential scenario.

Turkey doesn't have the kind of factors at play that existed in Iraq and Syria, it is a whole other kettle of fish. The Turkish army is vast, and would have every advantage against a Dawlah incursion: defensive terrain, friendly populace, superior weaponry and superior numbers. The kind of insurgent tactics that Dawlah used against the US wouldn't work in Turkey.

They might try but they'd be crazy to.

Also I don't know if being 'done with Assad' would mean they'd be done with Syria... even if the SAA and Assad fell they would still be at war there.

Well said. The Turkish Army is indeed well experienced in fighting against guerrilla style tactics.

Also "friendly populace" is no exaggeration indeed. Unlike the fake nations of Iraq and Syria, all Turks feel a deep and quasi-religious connection to the Turkish nation-state. It's something that bridges the pro-AKP and anti-AKP political gap.

 

[kitch9]

71 virgins ahoy!

Never understood this logic, are the virgins in heaven or facing their own hell?

I can see why the guy would think it was heaven but for the women they have to swap sex juice with a load of others and bang the fat sweaty bearded guy with a face like a kicked in snap tin for eternity.

 

[OttomanScribe]

People that think Turkey supports ISIS, are morons. Not even the average anti-government Turkish opinion thinks that.

Turkey, America and the UK are supporting non-ISIS rebels. They want to replace the pro-Russian Syrian government with a pro-Western one, and Turkey in particular wants a pro-Turkish government that will be allow Syria to be ripe for Turkish companies to economically colonise.

How supporting ISIS will achieve these aims I don't know. I don't know why people on the ground would think Turkey support ISIS (except Kurdish nationalists I suppose). In the West I guess the average "Turkey supports ISIS" moron knows that the Turkish government are religious, sees that ISIS are religious and thinks Erdogan wants to be the head of a new Caliphate? Dipshit R/WorldNews mentality.

Yeah I don't personally agree with the idea that there is even tacit support (and certainly not the ISI/Taliban analogies I've seen thrown around). I do think that they aren't particularly invested in countering a group which is giving the Kurds hell though.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Never understood this logic, are the virgins in heaven or facing their own hell?

I can see why the guy would think it was heaven but for the women they have to swap sex juice with a load of others and bang the fat sweaty bearded guy with a face like a kicked in snap tin for eternity.

When they say 'virgins' they are talking about hoor al-ayn... which aren't 'virgins' but rather 'beings of light'. The '71 72 73' numbers people chuck around has more to do with Orientalist confusion than any actual Muslim understanding of heaven. It has provided endless fodder for 'lol virgins' jokes but doesn't really give you much more than that.

Though the Muslim understanding of heaven is certainly full of 'earthly' pleasures, including sex.

 

[Stereogatari]

Yeah I don't personally agree with the idea that there is even tacit support (and certainly not the ISI/Taliban analogies I've seen thrown around). I do think that they aren't particularly invested in countering a group which is giving the Kurds hell though.

The latter part of what you say is true, but then one thinks of the millions of ethnic Turks in the region who are just as afflicted as the Kurds. Turkey surely would want to protect their ethnic kin.

When they say 'virgins' they are talking about hoor al-ayn... which aren't 'virgins' but rather 'beings of light'. The '71 72 73' numbers people chuck around has more to do with Orientalist confusion than any actual Muslim understanding of heaven. It has provided endless fodder for 'lol virgins' jokes but doesn't really give you much more than that.

Though the Muslim understanding of heaven is certainly full of 'earthly' pleasures, including sex.

Well said, and scary avatar change lol.

 

[OttomanScribe]

The latter part of what you say is true, but then one thinks of the millions of ethnic Turks in the region who are just as afflicted as the Kurds. Turkey surely would want to protect their ethnic kin.

Yeah true.

Well said, and scary avatar change lol.

Yeah probably shouldn't have it while posting in this thread.


I am at the moment primarily interested in the way that Dawlah recruits in Western countries. I know a few affiliated people here in Australia, and a few people I knew went over there. Most who ended up with Dawlah left before the group existed, intending to go fight in Syria with no further elaboration on the point. They were a real mix of people, and one thing that I find very curious is just how little we can generalise across their recruitment.

I would however say that the 'smart' ones stay in their home countries and the dumb one's go to fight. I've had a few convos with Musa Cerantonio and he is certainly no dullard. Same for a few others, who are either too smart to leave, or too high profile to get out of the country (thinking Junaid Thorne).

 

[Stereogatari]

Yeah true.



Yeah probably shouldn't have it while posting in this thread.


I am at the moment primarily interested in the way that Dawlah recruits in Western countries. I know a few affiliated people here in Australia, and a few people I knew went over there. Most who ended up with Dawlah left before the group existed, intending to go fight in Syria with no further elaboration on the point. They were a real mix of people, and one thing that I find very curious is just how little we can generalise across their recruitment.

I would however say that the 'smart' ones stay in their home countries and the dumb one's go to fight. I've had a few convos with Musa Cerantonio and he is certainly no dullard. Same for a few others, who are either too smart to leave, or too high profile to get out of the country (thinking Junaid Thorne).

Are most cases of recruitment involving people that run off without their parents/families consent? In this way would it be fair to compare the way people are recruited to ISIS, to the kind of recruitment methods used by criminal gangs?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Are most cases of recruitment involving people that run off without their parents/families consent? In this way would it be fair to compare the way people are recruited to ISIS, to the kind of recruitment methods used by criminal gangs?

Some, but not all. I think there is a difference there. There is no one mode. You have former atheist converts like Jake Bilardi (who was smart but messed up and young), then older men (also messed up) like Khaled Sharrouf (who went with his whole family), then some who are older and not messed up, like Abu Khaled... quite a few young women too. Most of the men are in their 20s or 30s, few are teens.

Some have had hard lives (Khaled and Mohammed Elomar for example) but others did not grow up that rough. It is really hard to generalise, not least because there aren't all that many of them.

A lot of the Aussies who have been killed left before IS, and some were killed before the group existed, or while fighting against them. Yusuf Ali and his wife, Shaykh Mahzoub and Abu Hamza (known by a few names, who was fighting with JN) are all examples.

A lot of those who went to fight came from the same small crew that did 'street dawah' in Parramatta (a suburb in Sydney). I knew Abu Hamza relatively well, met him a coupla times before he left and kept in touch online, he was well meaning... the few I had met were.. but he never sided with IS. They were all Salafi types but few were particularly educated in the religion, same is true more generally in my experience, some knowledge but few are educated enough to be viewed as Shaykhs, excepting Musa of course.

There is a subset of them (who are still here) who identify as 'Dhahiri' (an old school of law that has recently been resurrected and is gaining traction), and Musa has a lot of influence amongst them. They are often quite critical of Dawlah, surprisingly so, and have condemned a number of things done by the State. I think it is a manifestation of the Salafi/Wahhabi methodology, it means the normally anti-hierarchical Sunni strains of Islam go into overdrive.


I feel like the efficacy of their propaganda has really changed. They are stuck trying to appeal to two markets at once, locals (who go in for gruesome murders of Shia fighters, because they have seen the same from the other side and it looks like justice) and potential 'muhajirun'. The latter group often lacks the stomach to stand the burnings and the like, or they disagree on religious grounds (the burning in particular). I saw a lot of people switch their allegiance from JN when Dawlah started gaining ground but many seem to have switched back. Dawlah have killed too many Salafi jihadi shaykhs for them to gain widespread support even from within that movement. Some of their announcements seem particularly designed to cause crackdowns in non-Muslim countries on Muslim minorities, because it is those crackdowns that give them muhajirun and enhance their prestige.

They are in a constant fight with other Islamist groups, particularly pro-Taliban people and obviously Hizb ut-Tahrir. Though their gaining of the bay'ah of what used to be Boko Haraam and is now really 'Wilayat Gharb Afrikiya' (their West African Province) has given them a real boost.

The use of muhajirun to their cause is pretty limited in my opinion. The westerners are not good for much more than 'martyrdom ops' and propaganda... maybe computer skills lol. The really useful muhajirun are those from Chechnya, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa. Central Asians are overrepresented amongst their good fighters and the Chechens are widely feared and act as valuable commanders.

 

[Stereogatari]

Some, but not all. I think there is a difference there. There is no one mode. You have former atheist converts like Jake Bilardi (who was smart but messed up and young), then older men (also messed up) like Khaled Sharrouf (who went with his whole family), then some who are older and not messed up, like Abu Khaled... quite a few young women too. Most of the men are in their 20s or 30s, few are teens.

Some have had hard lives (Khaled and Mohammed Elomar for example) but others did not grow up that rough. It is really hard to generalise, not least because there aren't all that many of them.

A lot of the Aussies who have been killed left before IS, and some were killed before the group existed, or while fighting against them. Yusuf Ali and his wife, Shaykh Mahzoub and Abu Hamza (known by a few names, who was fighting with JN) are all examples.

A lot of them came from the same small crew that did 'street dawah' in Parramatta (a suburb in Sydney). I knew Abu Hamza relatively well, met him a coupla times before he left and kept in touch online, he was well meaning... the few I had met were.. but he never sided with IS. They are all Salafi types but few were particularly educated in the religion.

There is a subset of them (who are still here) who identify as 'Dhahiri' (an old school of law that has recently been resurrected and is gaining traction), and Musa has a lot of influence amongst them. They are often quite critical of Dawlah, surprisingly so, and have condemned a number of things done by the State. I think it is a manifestation of the Salafi/Wahhabi methodology, it means the normally anti-hierarchical Sunni strains of Islam gone into overdrive.


I feel like the efficacy of their propaganda has really changed. They are stuck trying to appeal to two markets at once, locals (who go in for gruesome murders of Shia fighters, because they have seen the same from the other side and it looks like justice) and potential 'muhajirun'. The latter group often lacks the stomach to stand the burnings and the like, or they disagree on religious grounds (the burning in particular). I saw a lot of people switch their allegiance from JN when Dawlah started gaining ground but many seem to have switched back. Dawlah have killed too many Salafi jihadi shaykhs for them to gain widespread support even from within that movement. Some of their announcements seem particularly designed to cause crackdowns in non-Muslim countries on Muslim minorities, because it is those crackdowns that give them muhajirun and enhance their prestige.

They are in a constant fight with other Islamist groups, particularly pro-Taliban people and obviously Hizb ut-Tahrir. Though their gaining of the bay'ah of what used to be Boko Haraam and is now really 'Wilayat Gharb Afrikiya' (their West African Province).

The use of muhajirun to their cause is pretty limited in my opinion. The westerners are not good for much more than 'martyrdom ops' and propaganda... maybe computer skills lol. The really useful muhajirun are those from Chechnya, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa. Central Asians are overrepresented amongst their good fighters and the Chechens are widely feared and act as valuable commanders.

Re: Central Asians as the good fighters, sounds like Turkic peoples still have the same reputation of being the best soldiers that they had in medieval times. Strange, considering that part of the World isn't as militarily active as Chechenya and Horn of Africa. Unless you include Afghanistan within that remit, which makes a lot more sense lol.

Based on what you've written, it sounds like the Western people most susceptible to ISIS recruitment or ending up in Syria in any capacity, are those who are part of post-ethnic Islamist communities. Would it be too superficial to say that the simple fact ISIS brands itself as "Islamic State" does a huge amount for marketing the ideology to people whose primarily identification is Muslim and Islamic with no ethnic consciousness. Whereas those who feel ties to an ethnic group and feel included within their ethnic communities do not feel any connection to a battle that isn't theirs.

Obviously even without ISIS, the pull is strong for religious Muslim people who feel a connection to Muslim issues Worldwide, every major Islamic conflict appears to attract people from across the Muslim World to fight and defend Muslims. Why do you think this is particularly apparent with this war? Last decades Afghan and Iraq wars didn't seem to get the same globalised Islamist support that ISIS and other groups in Syria have got.

Do you think the top-brass of ISIS are genuine about their Islamist aims, or are they just using Islam to recruit people and their main concern is power and black market profit?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Re: Central Asians as the good fighters, sounds like Turkic peoples still have the same reputation of being the best soldiers that they had in medieval times. Strange, considering that part of the World isn't as militarily active as Chechenya and Horn of Africa. Unless you include Afghanistan within that remit, which makes a lot more sense lol.

I would include Afghanistan but I don't mean Afghanistan. Uyghur, Kazakhs, Uzbeks and Kyrgyzs fighters have all been lauded. Some are experienced simply by virtue of a tough lifestyle but others have history in various insurgencies, or fought in Afghanistan or with other pan-Islamist movements.

Based on what you've written, it sounds like the Western people most susceptible to ISIS recruitment or ending up in Syria in any capacity, are those who are part of post-ethnic Islamist communities. Would it be too superficial to say that the simple fact ISIS brands itself as "Islamic State" does a huge amount for marketing the ideology to people whose primarily identification is Muslim and Islamic with no ethnic consciousness. Whereas those who feel ties to an ethnic group and feel included within their ethnic communities do not feel any connection to a battle that isn't theirs.

I would say that most (with a few Iraqi/Syrian exceptions) are pan Islamist. They do however often emphasise their ethnic identity when they join up. Abdul Salaam Mahmoud became Abu Hamza Al Sudani for example. Their kunyas (nicknames) often have an appellation of their origin. It strengthens Dawlah's claim to pan Islamism.

Obviously even without ISIS, the pull is strong for religious Muslim people who feel a connection to Muslim issues Worldwide, every major Islamic conflict appears to attract people from across the Muslim World to fight and defend Muslims. Why do you think this is particularly apparent with this war? Last decades Afghan and Iraq wars didn't seem to get the same globalised Islamist support that ISIS and other groups in Syria have got.

I don't know that it is a particularly apparent factor but I do think it is being increasingly emphasised by states like Australia and Britain who use it as an excuse to dog whistle in domestic politics. The number of fighters remains relatively low in my opinion.

Do you think the top-brass of ISIS are genuine about their Islamist aims, or are they just using Islam to recruit people and their main concern is power and black market profit?

I think it is a mix, some seem to have fully taken up the cause while others, like the late al Douri, seemed in an alliance of convenience.

 

[RustyNails]

OS!

 

[OttomanScribe]

OS!

What's doing akh?

 

[Magni]

Thanks for the posts OS, some really interesting stuff.

Those photos of refugees at the Turkish border are heart-breaking.

 

[Yamauchi]

What makes you think ISIS won't attack turkey as soon as they're done with assad? Imo it will become their fight soon.

That would be biting the hand that feeds them. The vast majority of ISIS recruits travel freely on the Jihadi express from Istanbul to Tel Abyad. Turkey is their main source of smuggled goods (in and out) including recruits, oil, etc. I guess now they will shift to Jarablus and Al-Rai.

You know what the difference is between a moderate Islamist and a radical one? The former is a US ally.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Thanks for the posts OS, some really interesting stuff.

No worries check out the links if you're interested in reading more.

That would be biting the hand that feeds them. The vast majority of ISIS recruits travel freely on the Jihadi express from Istanbul to Tel Abyad. Turkey is their main source of smuggled goods (in and out) including recruits, oil, etc. I guess now they will shift to Jarablus and Al-Rai.

You know what the difference is between a moderate Islamist and a radical one? The former is a US ally.

You know how little Erdogan and Dawlah have right? He can't simultaneously want to be an Ottoman Sultan (guess which title is implied in that) and at the same time be a fan of a self made Caliph.

 

[Prine]

Good to see you back OS

 

[OttomanScribe]

Good to see you back OS

Thanks bro but like last time who knows how long it will be for. I come in, swing the door on the saloon, bottle a few people, then walk out again leaving dust in my wake.

 

[CrankyKong]

So when are they gonna be defeated?

 

[JeffZero]

Great thread. Highly informative. Thanks to all who have contributed.

 

[OttomanScribe]

So when are they gonna be defeated?

If anyone tells you they know, they don't and stop listening to them.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Not sure if it has been shared earlier, but I rate this article: http://warontherocks.com/2015/02/the-strategy-of-savagery-explaining-the-islamic-state/

It is a decent engagement with some of the sources that Dawlah consults in devising tactics and strategy, with particular emphasis upon their brutality. I'm not a fan of either the term savagery or the use of 'death cult' but this is on point:

'While the Islamist death-cult draws upon twentieth-century totalitarian ideologies for its sanctification of violence, the management of savagery derives its logic from the Maoist theory of protracted people’s war.'

 

[JeffZero]

Reading it now. Good eye on the Maoist bit; I've made that connection before myself and it makes sense that it'd manifest in such a fashion, in such a region.

 

[andycapps]

Cool updates as far as the Kurds doing their thing.

What is Dawlah? Is that the name for the state, whereas Da'esh is the name of the group "running" it?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Cool updates as far as the Kurds doing their thing.

What is Dawlah? Is that the name for the state, whereas Da'esh is the name of the group "running" it?

'Dawlah' is a shortened form of 'Dawlatul Islam': 'the Islamic State'. It simply means 'the State' and is how I prefer to refer to them. It isn't inaccurate like 'Daesh' (the acronym for the Arabic for ISIS- 'al Dawlah al Islamiyyah fil Iraq wa Sham') or ISIS. I tried to get tIS to take off but it didn't and IS sounds like a capitalised 'is'.

Dawlah indicates their own concept of themselves and indicates their transnational nature. A lot of people use Daesh under the impression that it offends followers. This is not, as far as my interactions with fanboys anyway, the case.

They find it amusing: 'you bicker over what to name us, thinking that like you we are concerned with talk, but while you talk, we act'.

 

[Yamauchi]

You know how little Erdogan and Dawlah have right? He can't simultaneously want to be an Ottoman Sultan (guess which title is implied in that) and at the same time be a fan of a self made Caliph.

I never said Erdogan is a fan of Baghdadi. Erdogan knows how to use Islamist groups within Syria to achieve his own aims. The fact that ISIS members were pouring into Turkey today from Gire Sipi is proof of their unspoken cooperation.

We'll very likely start to see completely fabricated reports from the Erdogan-controlled Turkish media stating things like the coalition bombings killed many civilians or that the YPG is carrying out ethnic cleansing in the areas it controls. It is an indirect but obvious attempt at casting ISIS is in a sympathetic light, similar to when Davutoglu stated matter-of-factly that Kobane would soon fall.

Moving on, a good article from the Washington Post today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...bf7ed4c_story.html?postshare=3331434404464513

"The Islamic State was routed Monday from one of its key strongholds on Syria’s border with Turkey after its defenses crumbled and its fighters either defected or fled, raising new questions about the group’s vaunted military capabilities."

 

[OttomanScribe]

I never said Erdogan is a fan of Baghdadi. Erdogan knows how to use Islamist groups within Syria to achieve his own aims. The fact that ISIS members were pouring into Turkey today from Gire Sipi is proof of their unspoken cooperation.

How does this realpolitik approach mesh with:

You know what the difference is between a moderate Islamist and a radical one? The former is a US ally.

 

[andycapps]

'Dawlah' is a shortened form of 'Dawlatul Islam': 'the Islamic State'. It simply means 'the State' and is how I prefer to refer to them. It isn't inaccurate like 'Daesh' (the acronym for the Arabic for ISIS- 'al Dawlah al Islamiyyah fil Iraq wa Sham') or ISIS. I tried to get tIS to take off but it didn't and IS sounds like a capitalised 'is'.

Dawlah indicates their own concept of themselves and indicates their transnational nature. A lot of people use Daesh under the impression that it offends followers. This is not, as far as my interactions with fanboys anyway, the case.

They find it amusing: 'you bicker over what to name us, thinking that like you we are concerned with talk, but while you talk, we act'.

I thought that they'd threatened to cut out the tongues of anyone using the name Daesh. That's why I use it, prefer it to ISIS anyway.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I thought that they'd threatened to cut out the tongues of anyone using the name Daesh. That's why I use it, prefer it to ISIS anyway.

Yeah there are a bunch of myths about the naming. I never really saw a good source for the claims of threats about use of the word, though I'm open to being corrected...

There are a bunch of misconceptions about the word, like the idea that it doesn't have the term 'Islamic' in it (it does) or that it means 'bigots' or something similarly ridiculous. I think it is partly people really want to feel like what they name the group matters.

I have never personally heard Dawlah people get annoyed at it, and knowing the quality of the rest of the journalism coming out about them, I'd know better lol. Maybe it was something released by that Raqqa activist network's website lol.

 

[OttomanScribe]

I feel like there should be a post just devoted to the debunked rumours about them. I personally got a local radio station on Media Watch after they published an interview with Omar the Chechen, who doesn't even speak English... and is on the frontlines... and even if he did speak English wouldn't give an interview for op sec reasons... and even if he did it wouldn't be to some Aussie talk back show lol.

 

[andycapps]

Yeah there are a bunch of myths about the naming. I never really saw a good source for the claims of threats about use of the word, though I'm open to being corrected...

There are a bunch of misconceptions about the word, like the idea that it doesn't have the term 'Islamic' in it (it does) or that it means 'bigots' or something similarly ridiculous. I think it is partly people really want to feel like what they name the group matters.

I have never personally heard Dawlah people get annoyed at it, and knowing the quality of the rest of the journalism coming out about them, I'd know better lol. Maybe it was something released by that Raqqa activist network's website lol.

My understanding and the take I'd read on Da'esh was that it started off as an acronym, but in the "evolving language" it had become a derogatory term used by people in the region to demean the group. I have no clue, and I don't speak Arabic so I wouldn't know.

IMO, I'd prefer something that denies them the satisfaction of calling them anything similar to "The Islamic State" because IMO that implies that it's the true Islamic state, and it might convince impressionable (and ignorant) people to join their cause simply because of the name. Also, I guess I prefer to not call them what they wish to be called, maybe it's my own small way of protesting against them.

 

[OttomanScribe]

IMO, I'd prefer something that denies them the satisfaction of calling them anything similar to "The Islamic State" because IMO that implies that it's the true Islamic state, and it might convince impressionable (and ignorant) people to join their cause simply because of the name. Also, I guess I prefer to not call them what they wish to be called, maybe it's my own small way of protesting against them.

Daesh is inaccurate, and really downplays the reality of their role in the region. No one who is joining them is doing so because of a name. But call them what you like, they really don't seem to care.

 

[RustyNails]

OS, you said you had met with Musa Cerantonio. Does he come off as a conspiracy theorist? What does he really believe in?

Also you're not leaving anytime soon akhi. Not without participating in Ramadan 2015 OT!

 

[OttomanScribe]

OS, you said you had met with Musa Cerantonio. Does he come off as a conspiracy theorist? What does he really believe in?

Also you're not leaving anytime soon akhi. Not without participating in Ramadan 2015 OT!

A conspiracy theorist about what? I've never met him in person, we live in different states, just had a few conversations with him online. Might meet up with him at some point insha'Allah.

He didn't give off a conspiracy theorist vibe, our last conversation was about Foucault.

 

[yasu151]

Just wanted to say thanks for the information. I'm still going through the additional links you provided, and it's all been most informative.

 

[RustyNails]

Tal Abad is captured by YPG. Wooo!

 

[RustyNails]

A conspiracy theorist about what? I've never met him in person, we live in different states, just had a few conversations with him online. Might meet up with him at some point insha'Allah.

He didn't give off a conspiracy theorist vibe, our last conversation was about Foucault.

Like some of the images coming out of Daesh held territory. UmmahForums and IslamicAwakening for example are hotbeds of ISIS fanboys and girls, and some denied the images of journalists being beheaded or burned alive. I see a strain of apocalyptic warfare embedded in them, akin to Christian zealots believing the Four Horsemen are here. They really believe it is a utopia out there and Mahdi is going to come tomorrow.

 

[Suen]

I never said Erdogan is a fan of Baghdadi. Erdogan knows how to use Islamist groups within Syria to achieve his own aims. The fact that ISIS members were pouring into Turkey today from Gire Sipi is proof of their unspoken cooperation.

We'll very likely start to see completely fabricated reports from the Erdogan-controlled Turkish media stating things like the coalition bombings killed many civilians or that the YPG is carrying out ethnic cleansing in the areas it controls. It is an indirect but obvious attempt at casting ISIS is in a sympathetic light, similar to when Davutoglu stated matter-of-factly that Kobane would soon fall.

Moving on, a good article from the Washington Post today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...bf7ed4c_story.html?postshare=3331434404464513

"The Islamic State was routed Monday from one of its key strongholds on Syria’s border with Turkey after its defenses crumbled and its fighters either defected or fled, raising new questions about the group’s vaunted military capabilities."

Turkey is pretty much in bed with ISIS, but anyone who've read the slightest bit of Qatar and Turkey's geopolitical ambitions, and have followed the news of the region the past few years would have realized this. Anyway, why type when a single picture will do the job:

But hey, Turkey doesn't support ISIS and fights them...lol.

 

[Yamauchi]

How does this realpolitik approach mesh with:

Because he is an Islamist who is sympathetic to Islamist groups and their ideals. That doesn't mean he is a fan of Baghdadi but that he is sympathetic to ISIS and views them as a tool that can be used to fight Assad and the Kurds.

I would disagree with your assertion that Erdogan sees himself as an Ottoman Turk. I believe that he is fundamentally an Islamist. Islamists can be racist and even nationalists. I grew up around many of them on the island of Java.

And regarding my prediction in my last post, what do you know: https://www.facebook.com/RevNews/videos/521355361351364/?fref=nf

The journalists that humiliated this AKP governor by pointing out his blatant lies were arrested, by the way.

 

[Stereogatari]

Cool updates as far as the Kurds doing their thing.

What is Dawlah? Is that the name for the state, whereas Da'esh is the name of the group "running" it?

Dawlah means state in many Muslim majority languages. It's originally an Arabic word. For example in Turkish the word is rendered as Devlet and is used to refer to State institutions and bearacracy.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Because he is an Islamist who is sympathetic to Islamist groups and their ideals.
That doesn't mean he is a fan of Baghdadi but that he is sympathetic to ISIS and views them as a tool that can be used to fight Assad and the Kurds.

You seem to be confused about my question. My question was about how it can be the case that he is simultaneously acting along lines of Realpolitik (backing an insurgent group like Dawlah against other groups because he knows they a: will never gain real power and b: will weaken his regional opponents) and at the same time be driven by some vague solidarity amongst Islamists?

Why is the latter required, and how does it even make sense, when Baghdadi's claim to authority is exclusionary, and one that Erdogan would never ever recognise. There is not one 'Islamism' and often the mode of Islamism that different groups adopt will have them more likely to be fighting each other than anyone else.

I would disagree with your assertion that Erdogan sees himself as an Ottoman Turk. I believe that he is fundamentally an Islamist. Islamists can be racist and even nationalists. I grew up around many of them on the island of Java.

There is not a dichotomy between seeing oneself along Osmanli lines and being an Islamist.

But hey, Turkey doesn't support ISIS and fights them...lol.

Those aren't the only two options though are they?

 

[OttomanScribe]

Like some of the images coming out of Daesh held territory. UmmahForums and IslamicAwakening for example are hotbeds of ISIS fanboys and girls, and some denied the images of journalists being beheaded or burned alive. I see a strain of apocalyptic warfare embedded in them, akin to Christian zealots believing the Four Horsemen are here. They really believe it is a utopia out there and Mahdi is going to come tomorrow.

Nah, some are like that, sure, but that crew isn't. They are pretty open about a lot of the stuff, and sometimes object to it. The 'throwing people off buildings' thing for example, as well as the burning that pilot alive was widely condemned.