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Diminishing returns, scalability, and why it's already started to benefit companies like Nintendo, the hybrid concept, and mobile technology at large

Kikorin

Member
I agree, Switch has been just the start. Imagining a next console from Nintendo with the same concept as Switch, but about as powerful as a PS4 and with comparable SSD tech, would basically going to receive port of every game from now on with a better fidelity then now.

Considering they could drop from the 4K res that this gen has to push to 1080p or even 720p, they'll have a big margin and cutbacks would be less evident.
 

Haggard

Banned
Because we're talking about the trends of the industry hardware/streaming moving forward and they aren't going to move in the direction in what this board discusses, they're going to move towards where the money is and where the mainstream are. I don't even necessarily like this statement from the perspective of my own interests, but it doesn't change it from being any less true.
You should probably check out the most profitable games outside the mobile realm..... "Where the money is" is quite a ways off from where you think it is judging from your statements....... There's always a healthy dose of games that are nearly incompatible with streaming in the top lists each year..... CoD, LoL, BF etc..
The trend is to try and get recurring revenue, but that doesn't necessarily mean streaming. Streaming is simply not a good fit for a major part of the content in the videogames sector.
 
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Marty-McFly

Banned
Let me blow your mind, this board is far away from the casual realm and barely any game that's being talked about here ever fits in that category, so why bring this bullshit up time and time again?
Gamers playing twitch shooters or precision platformers will never switch to streaming.....

You should probably check out the most profitable games outside the mobile realm..... "Where the money is" is quite a ways off from where you think it is judging from your statements....... There's always a healthy dose of games that are nearly incompatible with streaming in the top lists each year..... CoD, LoL, BF etc..
The trend is to try and get recurring revenue, but that doesn't necessarily mean streaming. Streaming is simply not a good fit for a major part of the content in the videogames sector.

So you're saying precision platformers are the most profitable games in the industry? Mario maybe?

Also twitch shooters are the games Neogaf discusses?

Also, why is streaming not a good fit for recurring revenue? I'm not even a big fan of streaming at this point but I don't understand your argument, and how any of this will stop the impending future of streaming from occurring as it continues to improve and popularise.
 

Astral Dog

Member
I agree portable gaming has advanced a lot but we are not there YET, PS5/ONE X games made for those systems are but just a few, most are using crossgen assets, and Switch is still significantly weaker, even a next gen Switch wouldn't be able to run many of the next gen experiences we are going to see in the coming years.

Home console games still have a big place and push forward the industry and im talking as someone who loves Switch portable gaming.

What Switch does is simply play some of the previous AAA home console experiences in a convenient hybrid format, that is very impressive and why its a hit but those games are mostly old.thats why PS5 and Xbox Series are selling millions right now.
 

Astral Dog

Member
There is also a limit at what can be made on Switch(and other portable devices) and whats acceptable quality for publishers and consumers

Not everything is ported to mobile

However i think Switch third party support is very interesting to observe, for the first time in many years Nintendo is getting many of the same experiences as PlayStation and Xbox,in mobile form, before this all was exclusive or very different versions, now the gap is smaller as what runs well comes to Switch
 
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Fahdis

Member
Because we're talking about the trends of the industry hardware/streaming moving forward and they aren't going to move in the direction in what this board discusses, they're going to move towards where the money is and where the mainstream are. I don't even necessarily like this statement from the perspective of my own interests, but it doesn't change it from being any less true.

I mean the guy didn't get that us being on a gaming board is basically on an ethusiast level vs. The casual who will buy a game just based on Hype such as GTA V or Cyberpunk, finish it half way and then move on with life to the usual Fifa or COD or what his buddy is playing. Most people these days watch more YouTube Gaming and Reacts than actual gaming itself.

Irony, that's also half the content produced from these people comes out from streaming.
 
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I don't think you need datacenters every 20 Miles. The advent of 5G or wireless will be enough. As far as latency goes, we should both ask a Networking Specialist. I bet in 5 more years cloud will be the central focus of gaming.

I did ask a couple of smart network guys at my old job and neither of them really knew how to overcome the physical limitation that would allow for latency to not be an issue.

This is a great read on the subject if you are interested


From the link above a quote from a guy who is at the forefront of these things:

1.png
 

Marty-McFly

Banned
I don't see how this benefits the switch much. The gulf is still enormous, and nobody wants to play those types of experiences on something so limited like Switch hardware.
I mean, Switch is tracking ahead of every console in history after 4 years on the market. The impact of having console like experiences that are much less stripped down than previous generations on a hybrid with mobile technology has been pretty profound.
 

Fahdis

Member
I did ask a couple of smart network guys at my old job and neither of them really knew how to overcome the physical limitation that would allow for latency to not be an issue.

This is a great read on the subject if you are interested


From the link above a quote from a guy who is at the forefront of these things:

1.png

Was just thinking if data centers become more compact with things such as condensed versions of hardware to save space or people buy their own hardware and just make them dedicated servers like Warh.... naaahhh its not the future yet :(.
 

Haggard

Banned
So you're saying precision platformers are the most profitable games in the industry? Mario maybe?

Also twitch shooters are the games Neogaf discusses?

Also, why is streaming not a good fit for recurring revenue? I'm not even a big fan of streaming at this point but I don't understand your argument, and how any of this will stop the impending future of streaming from occurring as it continues to improve and popularise.
Whomever you are answering to, it`s not me. Your answer has pretty much nothing to do with what I wrote......
 
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I did ask a couple of smart network guys at my old job and neither of them really knew how to overcome the physical limitation that would allow for latency to not be an issue.

This is a great read on the subject if you are interested


From the link above a quote from a guy who is at the forefront of these things:

1.png
The argument is that casuals don't care and that the latency issue isn't as big as people believe. What most people don't realize is that we already have quite a bit of latency built into our console games. Fortnite for example has around 100 ms of latency. Adding 20 ms to that due to streaming doesn't really change the experience much, especially not for a casual player.
 

UnNamed

Banned
Let's put in this way:

During PS1 era, 95% of PS1 games were impossible on SNES. I actually remember Parodius as a port, and nothing else.

During PS2 era, 80% of PS2 games were impossible on PS1. Some 2D games, some bad ports were also produced on PS1 from PS2.

During PS3 era, 60% of PS3 games were impossible on PS2. The 40% were 2D games, some ports, some (not intensive) 3D games. Indie games could run on PS2 as well.

During PS4 era, less than 30% games were impossible to port, mainly open world games. Everything else could, and actually ran, on PS3.

In the PS5 era we will see some AAA games impossible to port on PS4, but even big studios will eventually release games which could run perfectly on PS4 and even Switch. In this situation, despite the new gen, lot of companies will create games not that heavy because they can't afford more, and Nintendo Switch in particular, will benefit from this situation.
 

coffinbirth

Member
The PS5 and XSX will show titles in a few years that won't run on the Switch even at low settings, there's a few currently
This is exactly where (I think) the op's point comes in though...a Switch 2 or whatever can come out in the next year or two that will still be $300 that WILL be able to run those games. They likely won't have RT or 4K textures or 120fps, etc, etc...but it will run them, haha. And that's where diminishing returns comes in as well, because we aren't going to be seeing demonstrably more hardware intense games as we are already seeing with RT, 4K textures and 120fps options taken off the table. Do you honestly think GTA VI (a random probably demanding game) is going to be massively different in terms of raw hardware requirements than say, GTA V once stripped of extraneous bells and whistles? Probably not, right? Now remember that GTA V was originally on 360 and PS3, 16 year old hardware...and yeah, diminishing returns seems apt when the only real returns are of graphical fidelity in nature, as to opposed to an actual paradigm shift in game design.

This applies to most AAA, biggest best bullshit games out there...God of War, Halo, you fucking name it. GoW 2018 might as well have been a PS2 game. Halo Infinite could look ever slightly less shity and probably run on 360, etc. Sure. Im sure you could come back and say"this use of physics here" or "the animation fidelity blah blah blah", but at the end of the day those are simply embellishments to the core design, and don't fundamentally change much of anything if excised.

Honestly, one of the most technically impressive and wildly popular games I can think of is Warzone, large scale map, 150 people, extremely good graphics, 4K, 120fps, and yet it's running on a (albeit heavily) modified Quake Engine that can also run on a potato and is F2P.

PS5 and XSX, GTX 3080....all of them, don't even need to fucking exist yet, as new hardware isn't required to run games slated for 2023 and beyond still, let alone the (largely)lack of any true innovation in game design beyond "oooooh shiny" going on decades now.

Don't get me wrong, you won't catch me playing multiplat ports on Switch, as I have the above mentioned hardware (I'm aware I'm part of the problem) and I love having the best hardware for games, but none of it is even required for the actual games I am playing.

"Fidelity"

"Immersion"

Whatever.

Just look at the PC space, the largest userbase out there, in that space where the sky is the limit vs. consoles 4 years out of 5, and we still haven't seen games that actually stress the CPU because of crazy physics, or AI or ...ANYTHING. When was the last time people had to ACTUALLY update their rigs because games simply wouldn't run on them? Crysis? For years and years now it's just been to have acceptable resolution and fps, and those gaps between upgrades keep getting wider and wider.

Sure, you can spend $2,000 or more on a gaming rig, spend $500 on a Ps5/XSX, $300 for a Series S, $200 on a Switch Lite and play a whole lot of the same games with varying degrees of performance quality, but fundamentally, they are the same games. It's more a matter of preference or financial ability than anything. I don't see that changing for another 20 years either.

Sorry, that was a major rant, haha. My bad.
You are certainly not wrong, I just went on a sleep deprived tangent.
 

NahaNago

Member
The thing helping out nintendo is covid and a lack of chips. Thanks to covid games will continue to be ported to the ps4 and xbox one and because of that the switch as well. They could even hold out until 2024 to release a new console.
 

Armorian

Banned
WTF are you smoking OP?

AI on PS4 is better in every way aside AA technique, they could have patched it but already abandoned this version.

Doom is scalable thanks to super low CPU requirements, it still looks and runs like shit on Switch.

Majority of games from PS4 era couldn't be ported to switch without cutbacks and they already maxed out this poor jaguars. Now imagine porting game from Zen 2 :messenger_grinning_smiling:
 
This thread won’t age well in a year or two. We are still too early in the gen to be talking about “diminishing returns”.I’ve been hearing about diminishing returns since the PS3 era and every gen devs find a way to completely blow away what we think of as possible in real time. Until we are matching Avatar or Avenger’s End Game level of graphics in real time there will be always room to greatly improve IMO.
 

Whitecrow

Banned
This is why Ray-Tracing is the next best thing.
Rasterization is not going to give us much more than we already have. We are very close to utilize it's full potential, if not there yet.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
Disagree. There are multiple avenues where there is a large room for growth.

Lighting and Virtual Reality being the most obvious.
 
I mean, Switch is tracking ahead of every console in history after 4 years on the market. The impact of having console like experiences that are much less stripped down than previous generations on a hybrid with mobile technology has been pretty profound.


switch is selling due to Nintendo games, not third party titles
 

ToTTenTranz

Banned
During PS1 era, 95% of PS1 games were impossible on SNES. I actually remember Parodius as a port, and nothing else.

During PS2 era, 80% of PS2 games were impossible on PS1. Some 2D games, some bad ports were also produced on PS1 from PS2.

During PS3 era, 60% of PS3 games were impossible on PS2. The 40% were 2D games, some ports, some (not intensive) 3D games. Indie games could run on PS2 as well.

During PS4 era, less than 30% games were impossible to port, mainly open world games. Everything else could, and actually ran, on PS3.
Where are these numbers coming from?
 
Disagree. There are multiple avenues where there is a large room for growth.

Lighting and Virtual Reality being the most obvious.
VR is where console need to go, to justify fixed non-portable hardware.

Using history as a guide, people stopped going to arcades when they could play games in their homes. Sure, for a long time the arcades offer better graphics. But eventually Home Console killed arcades. And notably this happened BEFORE they reached graphic parity. The convenience of playing in your own house, rather than having to go out to a separate place to game, means it happened faster than expected.

So maybe this could happen again, but with handhelds. Handhelds that are not as good as fixed TV consoles, but good enough for traditional gaming. And no one would be forcing it on gamers, it would just be due to largest investments not making games nicer to look at.

Virtual Reality in at least the next two gaming generations would still be cheaper on a console, and compromised on a purely prortable format. Sony likely realized this and got the groundworks set up. The idea isn't that VR is somehow better than non-VR, but that VR would end up being the only reason you would still buy a TV console.
 

Amiga

Member
design is altered in Switch ports to limit objects and depth of field. so a lot of the difference is moved to content and level design.

in PS4 CP77 content had to be cut just to have the game run with less frequent bugs and crashes. so there is still more to get from technology.
 

Impotaku

Member
switch is selling due to Nintendo games, not third party titles
Wrong, it's down to both. Japan has a solid lineup of 3rd party stuff and even in the west there's some great 3rd party games. If you are talking AAA western 3rd party bugfests then no the switch thankfully doesn't have those. Momotaro from konami a simple looking boardgame based on monopoly with trains has sold in it's millions.
 
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NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
a fast paced FPS plays much better with high resolution and 60fps.

Doom has a relatively low NPC count , worse lighting, geometry and it has extremely worse textures.

The resolution standards are unacceptable these days and the framerate awful for a game like Doom.

But people on gaming forums are ok with it, usually the same people that are so fervent about 60fps as a standard.
Why?
It's on a Nintendo.
No. It’s because those people understand that Nintendo’s hardware can’t do better, and don’t expect the impossible from the machine.

I played Doom 2016 on Switch. Bought the game ‘cuz I was going on a trip and wanted to check out the game and how they managed to make it run on the Switch.
I had fun with it. Sure, I could have played it so much better everywhere else. In 2017, though, I didn’t have another gaming platform capable of running Doom, and I couldn’t have taken it with me on a trip even if I had it. SURE, I didn’t have the best Doom experience. But then again, neither did I in 1996, discovering the original Doom on my SNES.

If you want better and can get it, by all means do so.
 
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