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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

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If Zimmerman ran after Martin or otherwise threatened him and became the aggressor, the act of losing sight and attempting to return to his vehicle would likely satisfy one of the two exceptions under the law.

No, it wouldn't. Not even close. How is turning one's back a "clear indication" of anything?

What is stopping him from saying he thought he was going to die, whether he actually thought that or not? If he was actually getting his head slammed into the ground it's reasonable for him to think he was going to die.

If Zimmerman were the aggressor as a matter of law, his belief that he is going to die is insufficient of itself to justify the use of lethal force.
 
Uh the Sanford Police shouldn't be touching anything at this point. I hope the FBI/FDJ is doing an independent one.

Completely agree with this. Sanford Police are in full-on "cover your ass" mode now. Wouldn't trust them with any aspect of this case now.


Zimmerman can approach a black teen armed, this is not against the law, but a black teen approaching Zimmerman with an Arizona Iced Tea? This is fucking criminal! :/

Well yeah, when you listen to Zimmerman on that tape and then statements from his friends now, it's clear what the defense would be if he's tried. Trayvon, in Zimmermans estimation, was up to no good, was acting strangely, was coming towards Zimmerman and reaching in his waistband, etc etc. What's sad is that in Florida he'll get away it.
 

Korey

Member
What is stopping him from saying he thought he was going to die, whether he actually thought that or not? If he was actually getting his head slammed into the ground it's reasonable for him to think he was going to die.

What's stopping anyone in Florida from just shooting their opponent if they get into any sort of brawl and feel they are losing?
 
Gotta love how the screaming stops the second the gun goes off. Like Zimmerman was crying for help until the very last second before he pulled the trigger. Such a noble man.
 

mavs

Member
If Martin beat him to a pulp, did the police report mention injuries?

Someone in this thread mentioned a broken nose and a wet back. It's also worth noting that all witnesses placed them on the grass when Martin was dead.

"Fear of deadly force or grievous bodily harm" is the key. It need not actually be carried out.

It's "death or great bodily harm" and again, those are the exact words used to describe "deadly force" in the form of a firearm. Not likely compatible with an unarmed 17 year-old.
 

Measley

Junior Member
If Zimmerman was truly getting his head slammed into the ground, and got his nose broken, he would have went to the hospital. Also the police would have taken photos of his battered face for evidence.

The fact that neither happened should be a loud and clear sign that Zimmerman's story is bullshit.
 

remist

Member
If Martin beat him to a pulp, did the police report mention injuries?

I'm pretty sure it did. Also Zimmerman's lawyer goes into more detail. "nose was broken, he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head, he sustained a cut that was serious enough to merit stitches, but it took too long to get to the hospital."

Even if he can convince a jury he was in fear of his life, I doubt he can convince them he used all reasonable means to try and retreat though.
 

commedieu

Banned
If Zimmerman was truly getting his head slammed into the ground, and got his nose broken, he would have went to the hospital. Also the police would have taken photos of his battered face for evidence.

The fact that neither happened should be a loud and clear sign that Zimmerman's story is bullshit.

One would think... but.. See: This thread.
 
If Zimmerman was truly getting his head slammed into the ground, and got his nose broken, he would have went to the hospital. Also the police would have taken photos of his battered face for evidence.

The fact that neither happened should be a loud and clear sign that Zimmerman's story is bullshit.

Also getting your head slammed would at the very least cause a concussion.



I'm pretty sure it did. Also Zimmerman's lawyer goes into more detail. "nose was broken, he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head, he sustained a cut that was serious enough to merit stitches, but it took too long to get to the hospital."

Too long to what? Shit doesn't even check out even if Zimmerman was the victim. What kind of person doesn't seek medical attention after that?
 

KHarvey16

Member
No, it wouldn't. Not even close. How is turning one's back a clear indication of anything?

Turning ones back and disengaging from the confrontation. This is precisely the language used in the statute. The fact Martin is now free from him means he must make the conscious decision to confront him again. Again, operating under the assumption Zimmerman's story is true for the purposes of this specific discussion.
 

Measley

Junior Member
Also getting your head slammed would at the very least cause a concussion.

Yeah, but despite having a broken nose, getting his head smacked into the concrete, and getting wailed on by a scarecrow, he had the mental clarity to get out his gun and shoot the kid right in the stomach.

Amazing.
 

mavs

Member
What is stopping him from saying he thought he was going to die, whether he actually thought that or not? If he was actually getting his head slammed into the ground it's reasonable for him to think he was going to die.

It has to be a "reasonable" fear, which means Zimmerman is going to be second guessed no matter what the facts are.
 

commedieu

Banned
Also getting your head slammed would at the very least cause a concussion.





Too long to what? Shit doesn't even check out even if Zimmerman was the victim. What kind of person doesn't seek medical attention after that?

get it through you're silly blue hat..

It took TOO long! For..uhm... I don't k.. fuck.
 
Yeah, but despite having a broken nose, getting his head smacked into the concrete, and getting wailed on by a scarecrow, he had the mental clarity to get out his gun and shoot the kid right in the stomach.

Amazing.

And apparently no hospital visit or pics were taken. Hmmm.
 
Turning ones back and disengaging from the confrontation. This is precisely the language used in the statute.

No, it isn't. The statute says the aggressor must "indicate[] clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."

Turning one's back and even walking towards a car to where, e.g., a reasonable person could presume a weapon exists, does not remotely clearly indicate one's desire to withdraw or terminate the use of force. Maybe doing that in conjunction with certain verbal communication, but certainly not that alone.

The fact Martin is now free from him means he must make the conscious decision to confront him again.

Which Florida law gives him permission to do against an aggressor if the aggressor has not "clearly indicated" his desire to withdraw and terminate the use of force. Remember, if Zimmerman is the aggressor under law, Martin has the right to stand his ground.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Turning ones back and disengaging from the confrontation. This is precisely the language used in the statute. The fact Martin is now free from him means he must make the conscious decision to confront him again. Again, operating under the assumption Zimmerman's story is true for the purposes of this specific discussion.

No, the statute says disengage and clearly indicates the desire to stop the use of force. You seem to be assuming turning ones back would be such a clear indication but the statute doesn't say that.
 

KHarvey16

Member
It's "death or great bodily harm" and again, those are the exact words used to describe "deadly force" in the form of a firearm. Not likely compatible with an unarmed 17 year-old.

I'm not sure I agree. Having someone on top of you, beating you about the face and smashing your head onto the concrete, would seem to clearly indicate a justified fear of death and/or grievous bodily harm. This is Zimmerman's story, and if accurate I think has a very good chance of satisfying any legal requirement. Again it depends on witness testimony, pictures and statements from EMTs and the like.
 

Dash27

Member
If you listen to the 911 call, Zimmerman mentions numerous times that Trayvon is reaching in his waistband and coming towards him.

Because Zimmerman is in his car at the time, staring at him while reporting him to 911 for being "suspicious". May not have been bright to confront him but you cant blame Martin for doing it. I'd probably do it too.
 

LM4sure

Banned
If Zimmerman was truly getting his head slammed into the ground, and got his nose broken, he would have went to the hospital. Also the police would have taken photos of his battered face for evidence.

The fact that neither happened should be a loud and clear sign that Zimmerman's story is bullshit.

Well we don't know that the police did not take photos. It's not like they would announce that or release the pictures. Or it's very possible that they didn't take any pictures since they've proven to be inept.
 
Because Zimmerman is in his car at the time, staring at him while reporting him to 911 for being "suspicious". May not have been bright to confront him but you cant blame Martin for doing it. I'd probably do it too.

He didn't confront Zimmerman at the point. He moved on, at which time Zimmerman left his car and continued to stalk him on foot. If you're Trayvon and you see this, you're fearing for your life.

Well we don't know that the police did not take photos. It's not like they would announce that or release the pictures. Or it's very possible that they didn't take any pictures since they've proven to be inept.

We know that the police report at the scene has NONE of that. Why not? That's why Sanford PD is under so much fire. You can't call it self-defense and not document why.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I think this topic is just going to go in Dante's Circles until Zimmerman is arrested and charged.
 

commedieu

Banned
If you don't stitch up a deep cut soon enough, you either need to open up the wound again or just let it heal on its own.

same for broken nose...
and life threatening damage from getting your head slammed into concrete..

Oh wait, no. Its not.
 

KHarvey16

Member
No, it isn't. The statute says the aggressor must "indicate[] clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force."

Turning one's back and even walking towards a car to where, e.g., a reasonable person could presume a weapon exists, does not remotely clearly indicate one's desire to withdraw or terminate the use of force.



Which Florida law gives him permission to do against an aggressor if the aggressor has not "clearly indicated" his desire to withdraw and terminate the use of force. Remember, if Zimmerman is the aggressor under law, Martin has the right to stand his ground.

No, the statute says disengage and clearly indicates the desire to stop the use of force. You seem to be assuming turning ones back would be such a clear indication but the statute doesn't say that.

Again the details of the encounter will be what matters. As a legal question, does "in good faith" mean the intention of the defendant, Zimmerman in this case, is relevant? In other words, does the assailant need to recognize and believe Zimmerman is acting in good faith or does it just need to be shown that he was after the fact?

Also, I think Martin being legally able to re-engage would depend on if he was justified in fearing for his life(or grievous bodily injury).
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
I like how some people who thinks Zimmerman is entitled to so many benefits of the doubts are seemingly so hesitant to extend the same privilege to the kid who is now dead.

...It's like some of you guys just never learn.
 
same for broken nose...
and life threatening damage from getting your head slammed into concrete..

Oh wait, no. Its not.

Injuries that are bad enough to make it seem like he was defending his life yet not cause enough to visit a hospital. Can't make this shit up, Zimmerman is just so full of it.
 

mavs

Member
I'm not sure I agree. Having someone on top of you, beating you about the face and smashing your head onto the concrete, would seem to clearly indicate a justified fear of death and/or grievous bodily harm. This is Zimmerman's story, and if accurate I think has a very good chance of satisfying any legal requirement. Again it depends on witness testimony, pictures and statements from EMTs and the like.

I don't think so. You're not going to die imminently from getting beat about the face, even if you are lying on concrete. Remember, the criteria isn't just that you are facing death or great bodily harm, it's that using deadly force is necessary to prevent it. Like, covering your face or grabbing their arms can't help you. Zimmerman will have to come up with some serious injuries sustained in the initial contact to make that a reasonable fear.
 
Don't they usually send you to the hospital to get stitched up though?

When the local police arrived at the scene, they found Zimmerman with a bloody nose, swollen lip and lacerations in the back of his head. Although paramedics gave him first aid, he said he did not need to go to the hospital and sought medical treatment the next day.
 

Measley

Junior Member
Well we don't know that the police did not take photos. It's not like they would announce that or release the pictures. Or it's very possible that they didn't take any pictures since they've proven to be inept.

He didn't go to the hospital either, even though he supposedly had a broken nose.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Again the details of the encounter will be what matters. As a legal question, does "in good faith" mean the intention of the defendant, Zimmerman in this case, is relevant? In other words, does the assailant need to recognize and believe Zimmerman is acting in good faith or does it just need to be shown that he was after the fact?

Also, I think Martin being legally able to re-engage would depend on if he was justified in fearing for his life(or grievous bodily injury).

In good faith virtually always means in the mind of the person acting - it can't be a ruse or a trick. But the question is what clearly indicates withdrawal, not the good faith element.

Also, the statute is not clear on what makes one the "aggressor.". It defines it as one who "provokes the use of force." Zimmerman could conceivably do a lot less than threaten death/GBH to be considered the aggressor.
 

commedieu

Banned
When the local police arrived at the scene, they found Zimmerman with a bloody nose, swollen lip and lacerations in the back of his head. Although paramedics gave him first aid, he said he did not need to go to the hospital and sought medical treatment the next day.

Life threatening injuries that require him to murder a guy, can be put off till tomorrow.
 

KHarvey16

Member
In good faith virtually always means in the mind of the person acting - it can't be a ruse or a trick. But the question is what clearly indicates withdrawal, not the good faith element.

Also, the statute is not clear on what makes one the "aggressor.". It defines it as one who "provokes the use of force." Zimmerman could do a lot less than threaten death/GBH to be considered the aggressor.

I was just commenting on the requirement for Trayvon to be covered under the stand your ground law, as EV suggested.
 
Injuries that are bad enough to make it seem like he was defending his life yet not cause enough to visit a hospital. Can't make this shit up, Zimmerman is just so full of it.

You don't need to display injuries to prove you feared for your life. I don't doubt for a second that Trayvon took him by surprise and knocked him to the ground and hit him. I do question whether or not that is reason enough to murder Trayvon when Zimmerman was the reason that Trayvon attacked him thinking he was being stalked.
 

Zoe

Member
When the local police arrived at the scene, they found Zimmerman with a bloody nose, swollen lip and lacerations in the back of his head. Although paramedics gave him first aid, he said he did not need to go to the hospital and sought medical treatment the next day.

Right, but first aid does not normally entail stitches, and his lawyer is trying to say that the reason he doesn't have the evidence of receiving that level of care is because he went to the hospital too late.
 

Dash27

Member
He didn't confront Zimmerman at the point. He moved on, at which time Zimmerman left his car and continued to stalk him on foot. If you're Trayvon and you see this, you're fearing for your life..

Totally agree, Zimmerman is the instigator here. He stalked him, chased him, the 911 dispatch said not to and then... well we dont know. although I believe Martin's girlfriend told him to run and he said he wasnt going to? So I dont know you can say he feared for his life if that's true.
 
Again the details of the encounter will be what matters.

Without doubt. As a defense lawyer, I'm not terribly comfortable arguing in favor of the prosecution of somebody or even opining about guilt before trial based on media information. But I'm not really doing that; the travesty in this case is the lack of charges and that is what is driving the discussion right now. Whether Zimmerman is guilty or justifiably used lethal force is something for a jury to determine at trial. Certainly, the result of that will depend on the details of the encounter that come out at trial. In this, of course, Zimmerman has an unusual advantage as the lone living participant and possibly the only source of evidence for the jury to consider about the encounter. Although he will have working against him the normal jury bias against the testimony of defendants.

As a legal question, does "in good faith" mean the intention of the defendant, Zimmerman in this case, is relevant? In other words, does the assailant need to recognize and believe Zimmerman is acting in good faith or does it just need to be shown that he was after the fact?

Depends on how Florida courts interpret it, which I don't know. Usually that indicates a subjective criterion, but the provision still requires a "clear indication." It just requires that that "clear indication" have additionally been in good faith and not a ruse.

Also, I think Martin being legally able to re-engage would depend on if he was justified in fearing for his life(or grievous bodily injury).

It is possible, depending on how Florida courts interpret the statutes. But that would only mean that Martin also committed a crime. It wouldn't mean that Zimmerman was absolved of his, because once he is deemed an aggressor under law, he cannot legally use deadly force unless he has satisfied the statutory criteria.
 
Right, but first aid does not normally entail stitches, and his lawyer is trying to say that the reason he doesn't have the evidence of receiving that level of care is because he went to the hospital too late.

It sorta indicates that at the time Zimmerman didn't feel like he had anything to cover-up. Someone put it in his head that night or the next day that a visit to the hospital would be beneficial. Whether that was a cover-your-ass move or he was indeed hurt and didn't feel it the prior night due to adrenaline none of us know. But the paramedics/police didn't report broken bones or injuries requiring stitches.


Totally agree, Zimmerman is the instigator here. He stalked him, chased him, the 911 dispatch said not to and then... well we dont know. although I believe Martin's girlfriend told him to run and he said he wasnt going to? So I dont know you can say he feared for his life if that's true.

I agree. That part of it helps Zimmerman's case. Trayvon, according to his girlfriend, appears to have sought out a final confrontation.
 

Shikamaru Ninja

任天堂 の 忍者
The FaceBook activism pulling the race card and that white folk are always racist seem to have mislooked the fact that Zimmerman has hispanic roots. That is right folks. You actually have to judge people as individuals rather than whole segments of population. Go figure.

I hate my facebook friends.
 
Again the details of the encounter will be what matters.

Without doubt. As a defense lawyer, I'm not terribly comfortable arguing in favor of the prosecution of somebody or even opining about guilt before trial based on media information. But I'm not really doing that; the travesty in this case is the lack of charges and that is what is driving the discussion right now. Whether Zimmerman is guilty or justifiably used lethal force is something for a jury to determine at trial. Certainly, the result of that will depend on the details of the encounter that come out at trial. In this, of course, Zimmerman has an unusual advantage as the lone living participant and possibly the only source of evidence for the jury to consider about the encounter. Although he will have working against him the normal jury bias against the testimony of accused individuals. (Although he will have working in his favor the normal jury bias against black people.)

As a legal question, does "in good faith" mean the intention of the defendant, Zimmerman in this case, is relevant? In other words, does the assailant need to recognize and believe Zimmerman is acting in good faith or does it just need to be shown that he was after the fact?

Depends on how Florida courts interpret it, which I don't know. Usually that indicates a subjective criterion, but the provision still requires a "clear indication." It just requires that that "clear indication" have additionally been in good faith and not a ruse.

Also, I think Martin being legally able to re-engage would depend on if he was justified in fearing for his life(or grievous bodily injury).

It is possible, depending on how Florida courts interpret the statutes. But that would only mean that Martin also committed a crime. It wouldn't mean that Zimmerman was absolved of his, because once he is deemed an aggressor under law, he cannot legally use deadly force unless he has satisfied the statutory criteria. At least according to the plain language of the statute.

Also, keep in mind you have used the language for justifying the use of deadly force. Martin never had to fear death or grievous bodily injury to be justified in using force. He just had to "reasonably believe[] that [force was] necessary to defend himself ... against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force." Meaning, he just had to reasonably fear that Zimmerman was going to hit him, not that Zimmerman was going to kill and/or cause him grievous bodily injury. Martin never used lethal force; only Zimmerman did. So only Zimmerman is subject to that standard.
 

MThanded

I Was There! Official L Receiver 2/12/2016
The FaceBook activism pulling the race card and that white folk are always racist seem to have mislooked the fact that Zimmerman has hispanic roots. That is right folks. You actually have to judge people as individuals rather than whole segments of population. Go figure.

I hate my facebook friends.
Good thing only white people can be racists.

Lets be honest here if Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was not black there is a high chance that he would still be in custody right now.

As a black male who has been racially profiled multiple time I find it offensive when people act like race had little to do with this.

When news like this hits, facebook becomes the home for covert racists. If you are going to be racist you should be overt instead of covert. Don't bury your hatred in subtle comments relating to current news topics. You aren't fooling anyone.
 
The FaceBook activism pulling the race card and that white folk are always racist seem to have mislooked the fact that Zimmerman has hispanic roots. That is right folks. You actually have to judge people as individuals rather than whole segments of population. Go figure.

I hate my facebook friends.

race card and white folk in the same sentence...

lololololololol!
 

BobLoblaw

Banned
And apparently no hospital visit or pics were taken. Hmmm.
That's one thing that the prosecution would definitely point out. The report that Trayvon was on top of him and bashing his head on the concrete comes off as laughable for two reasons. 1) Zimmerman declined medical help. And because of the SPD's incompetence, there were no pics taken of him. Making the argument that he was severely injured, but didn't need to go to a hospital makes his credibility very suspect. And 2) I weigh 175 pounds and if some 65 pound teenager was on top of me, how much effort do you think it would take for me to get them off? Answer. Not much.
 
Good thing only white people can be racists.

Lets be honest here if Zimmerman was black and Trayvon was not black there is a high chance that he would still be in custody right now.

About 100%. And I say that despite believing that people should be free before trial because the reality is that if Zimmerman were black, he would have been arrested, and his bail would have been set such that he could not meet it (in violation of his right to reasonable bail).
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
You don't need to display injuries to prove you feared for your life. I don't doubt for a second that Trayvon took him by surprise and knocked him to the ground and hit him. I do question whether or not that is reason enough to murder Trayvon when Zimmerman was the reason that Trayvon attacked him thinking he was being stalked.

I just don't get it. I just don't get the logic.

Zimmerman clearly initiated this mess by following..., fuck that, stalking, Mr. Trayvon. He clearly indicated that he desired to engage Mr. Trayvon in a hostile manner--not necessarily physical, but his intention was maliciously motivated. He clearly was the one carrying the gun to this engagement. He clearly has prejudiced tendencies towards the group of race Mr. Trayvon is in. He clearly disregarded the instruction from the police to withheld from initiating engagement and disregarded the fact that he did not have the legal right to engage "suspicious" persons directly as if he's a police officer.

Playing Devil's Advocate is fine, but I just don't get how people can gift Zimmerman with so many benefits of the doubts when so many clear-cut facts have been laid down on the table. I just don't get the mindset to the point that it made me feeling rather angry right now.
 

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
I just don't get it. I just don't get the logic.

Zimmerman clearly initiated this mess by following..., fuck that, stalking, Mr. Trayvon. He clearly indicated that he desired to engage Mr. Trayvon in a hostile manner--not necessarily physical, but his intention was maliciously motivated. He clearly was the one carrying the gun to this engagement. He clearly has prejudiced tendencies towards the group of race Mr. Trayvon is in. He clearly disregarded the instruction from the police to withheld from initiating engagement and disregarded the fact that he did not have the legal right to engage "suspicious" persons directly as if he's a police officer.

Playing Devil's Advocate is fine, but I just don't get how people can gift Zimmerman with so many benefits of the doubts when so many clear-cut facts have been laid down on the table. I just don't get the mindset to the point that it made me feeling rather angry right now.


How is it clear he was maliciously motivated? Racially motivated, sure.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
I think people were getting too caught up thinking I was saying the leak story was untrue, my focus was solely on semantics of what is being said, not even necessarily what is being reported. Is it entirely possible that a police department that is known to be incompetent, covering up information, and possibly racist could release evidence that makes the victim in this murder look worse under a cloud of conspiracy? Yes, definitely. Is it also possible that one employee at the Police Station leaked this information to the press? Yes. The correct semantics when talking about this would be to say that the information was leaked from within the police department. Trayvon's mother said "The only comment that I have right now is that they killed my son and now they’re trying to kill his reputation”. The article that was posted from the examiner said "Trayvon Martin suspended for having pot at school; police allegedly leaked story".

I was looking for the answer to these questions. Nothing more. I can't believe that someone would think I'm actually saying that it isn't possible that this incompetent police department did this.
 
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