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Ghost in the Shell |OT| I was born in the sea of information
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Zoe
Member
The only reason Scarlett Johansson has demonstrated those things that you've listed off is because she has been afforded multiple opportunities to do so. Asian-American actresses have not been given the same opportunities.
That is what makes it racial.
lightskintwin
Banned
But what if they ADAPT it to America as it's setting, who should they cast?
Brian_FETO
Banned
I think a lot of times it isn't explicitly implied, outside of their names. It's just assumed because anime is so heavily tied to Japanese culture....like how often do they actually not take place in Japan? (I of course haven't seen all of the anime but I can't think of any. Cowboy Bebop should be the exception and it's still dripping with it)
It's just a fucked situation because on one hand it's like ok.....film is a visual/narrative medium and I don't think anyone should be excluded from roles.....but obviously, the people being excluded from "traditionally Japanese roles" (Asian actors) aren't getting anything. So I get it. It sucks
Also, the Full Metal Alchemist live-action movie has Edward played by someone Japanese and wearing a blonde wig.
Turin Turambar
Member
Actually, we don't know if she is a 'Japanese android', the way of the art works with manga, we don't know what characters are Japaneses, which are Russian, which are American... all ethnicities are drawn super similarly.
Hell, maybe it's a future beyond races, maybe people don't care about eyes and skin and hair color because they know lots of people can change it on a whim.
Brian_FETO
Banned
This is another question. I actually think this is cool if:
You are adapting the story but completely reworking it, retitling it, etc. So instead of "GHOST IN THE SHELL: THE MOVIE" it's credited as "Inspired by The Ghost In The Shell"
Obviously making it full on western is going to piss off fans of the original (because again, the Japanese influence is what makes anime) but then you aren't doing a half step in adapting. You're actually making a movie first and borrowing ideas without clear ties to characters/arcs/etc
Like I think if someone tried they could make a really awesome full western insane take on Yu Yu Hakusho's Chapter Black. But just call it "Chapter Black" or something and not have Chris Pratt as "Kuwabara" lol. I didn't see it but apparently Edge Of Tomorrow did this sort of thing pretty well
AmaterasuOni
Banned
So give me a name. It's that simple. Are there or are there not some Asian-American actresses who can play Major and make the money back and then some more for the sequel? I got few names yesterday. There was 2 potential names, but even they haven't proved "their worthiness" as of now. They might lack some skills, maybe the sex appeal, maybe some other traits. Who knows. Maybe they're future stars, we don't know yet. But they're not the star power TODAY.
I'm saying that the issue is not racial with GitS. The issue is occupational. There might not be star potential in the current Asian-American actress pool in action/sci-fi genre. You do not gamble this kind of money with unknown actors. You try to get the flavor of the month for your expensive movie.
It's business not Amnesty International. These guys make money, not goodwill. That is Hollywood today, maybe it's different tomorrow.
It does not make me a racist when I point the reality out. I also said that it's a big issue and I'm glad it's changing slowly. Women are already getting better equality as it is, just look at the fucking star of GitS and J-Law and such.
Never forget Tilda Swinton and Dr. Strange! Equality!
Uh, a lot of anime doesn't take place in Japan. Especially a lot of popular ones. Trigun. Fullmetal Alchemist. Attack on Titan. Hellsing. One Piece (not that you would make it live action).
Brian_FETO
Banned
Haven't seen any of those outside of a few episodes of FMA, should've thought of that
This is really the edge the manga/anime will have over any live action adaptation. This is supposed to be a far future, post WWIII cyberpunk society where bodies are made on demand, it's very difficult to predict how humans would look like then, and the stylized art of the characters help ease the audience into that, live action will have people discussing ad nauseum the ethnicity and appearance of the actors when that is not really the point.
Now systemic problems in Hollywood exists, you can't deny it, but for GiTS, in universe, it works, the problem is external to the movie.
Zoe
Member
Except the movie doesn't follow the GiTS universe.
Hollywood refuses to cast Asian actors in lead roles and they've a double standard for white actors. This is why they didn't cast an Asian actor to play Major.
You can argue it's "rational business" but that doesn't work. It's a problem Hollywood created with its inherent bias against minorities in lead roles.
"Star power" isn't a draw like it used to be. The saturation of "brands" have had an effect on it.
Marvel took an actor without any charm or actual martial arts training for the Iron Fist and ignored other potential actors who would have fit Danny's ethnicity and had the action experience for the role.
Paramount cast a white actor to play Major, even though the story takes place in Japan and the character has a Japanese name. They changed her name as a half measure, but they reportedly intended on using VFX to change the actor's face because
of the movie's twist.
There are no guarantees in this industry. Ghost in the Shell could underperform even with an actor the studio think carries more "star power" in the lead role, and then who will Hollywood blame?
You can argue "Well, there aren't any equivalent Asian actors to Johansson!" which is basically saying it's okay for Hollywood to be racist even though it's a problem they created based on inherent racial bias.
Hollywood refuses to cast Asian actors in lead roles because they're not bankable even though this is because Hollywood refuses to cast Asian actors in lead roles based on racism endemic of the entire system.
How do they rectify this? Cast Asian actors in lead roles and don't place the blame squarely on them if the project isn't lucrative.
Fullmetal Alchemist is a good example. It has white characters, but the live action film has a Japanese cast. Why? Because it's a Japanese film being made for the Japanese audience in mind. Ghost in the shell is no different - being made for the Anaerican/western audience in mind.
Anyways, ScarJo isn't being called by the Japanese name. It seems they altered the story/name, and it works well. My gf thought the twist was nice, and she had no knowledge this was based on a anime
Anyways, ScarJo isn't being called by the Japanese name. It seems they altered the story/name, and it works well. My gf thought the twist was nice, and she had no knowledge this was based on a anime
Brian_FETO
Banned
I think the problem is when you look at it like that you're saying "western = white" which....isn't (wasn't?) untrue but it's overlooking the fact that we're extremely diverse compared to somewhere like Japan. My issue is I think the general public/moviegoing audience is a lot dumber/close minded than vocal people online give them credit for
The name thing is kind of funny because people were like "wow seriously ScarJo is gonna play someone named Motoko" and the studio said "no she isn't" so they were like "WOW WTF". Doesn't excuse it but it's like yeah...you guys aren't going to win the detractors over
Except Fullmetal Alchemist doesn't explicitly take place in Japan?
Would it be cool if Black Panther was played by Brad Pitt because of flimsy story reasons?
This GitS is being made with international audiences in mind. The premiere was in Tokyo.
Hmm... well...
To clarify, the first is all critics, the second is top critics
AmaterasuOni
Banned
So give me a name. Or better yet, give the fans a name who can perform like ScarJo in a GitS-like niche sci-fi blockbuster. It's a really simple request. Can you finally name one, please?
Angry people in the internet: "Damn you! You need to cast ethnic actors and actresses in lead roles!"
Producers: "Ok, we have this Ghost in the Shell coming up. We are planning to give it a 120 million dollar budget. We need really powerful and recognizable face, who has skillset of a warrior but can act as well. She also needs to have sex appeal. Can you name the Asian-American actress so we can cast her?"
Angry people in the internet: "...", "That has to be racist, because minorities don't get the change they need", "Hollywood is whitewashing an anime based movie, it's evil"
Producers: "Just give us a decent name, so we can check her out. Maybe we get to make a new star out of her."
*crickets*
And I'm called racist.
I agree that Hollywood is racist, but it doesn't seem to apply here. We just don't have suitable actresses to wear ScarJo's tight latex suit and draw all the nerds and other fanatics to the theatre. Even if the movie's a bomb, ScarJo will bring in the minimum + the awkward lonely wanker money. That b-lister no-name actress wouldn't get even that. Pure and simple risk reducing business. ScarJo is the white flavor of the month.
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Currently worse average reviews than Lucy. Trending downwards ain't a good sign either.
😐😐
The Elite
BOSS
What I'm saying is that a Japanese studio/film is making the film which is why it has a Japanese cast despite its characters or story not taking place in Japan. They're trying to appeal to them as much as possible.
Hollywood is doing that with GitS. They need someone to appeal to the western audience as well as sell tickets.
You're not actually addressing anything I said. You're not listening. Instead you're repeating yourself over and over again.
There are Asian actors who actively vie for roles in Hollywood and are ignored. This happens more than we know.
This happened with Death Note and Iron Fist, and it's unfortunately a regular occurrence for Asian actors in Hollywood. Steven Yeun played Glenn on The Walking Dead for
81 episodes and he can't find another role
In the case of Ghost in the Shell, casting a Asian actor wasn't even considered. It was seen as a vehicle for Johansson. The studio considered using VFX to make her appear Asian, which is terrible. So not even entertaining the idea of casting an Asian actor isn't the fault of Asian actors vying for roles. It's Hollywood's fault.
You're making the same problematic argument with weak justification for it and digging a bigger hole for yourself.
If a movie bombs, it bombs. You can try to mitigate the bomb through licensing, merchandise, etc., but it's still a bomb. There are no absolutes.
Again, it's not becauze there aren't any Asian actors vying for roles. It's that they're ignored by producers because of an inherent bias against Asian actors.
Again, if Hollywood wants to change this bias, they should cast more Asian actors in lead roles and not blame them if the project doesn't perform well.
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
karen fukuhara
There, you got one.
Besides in your situation with the producer it would go like this:
Producer: "we got ghost in the shell, we cannot cast an Asian cause we don't want to and we don't want the audience to be too confused with the themes of the original Chinese movie so let's call Scarjo and that guy who did the Snow White movie cause he won't challenge us too much."
Wanda/Wander
Member
Sup
AmaterasuOni
Banned
China will most likely love it. It has that weird non-westerner vibe going on. It might be catered for them. We'll see.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Fukuhara was the other name that people came up yesterday.
She hasn't been proven to be worthy just yet. We need to see her more. She would be perfect, but is her acting and sex appeal there? I wouldn't risk my 120 million dollar movie on her shoulders.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Chris Rock was speaking on race and he had a good point related to this (he was talking about baseball though). He said something to the effect of the true measure of equality is when a minority is allowed to fail.
A white actor stars in a movie that bombs and it's for every other reason, and has absolutely no bearing on the viability of other white actors in the future. A minority actor in the exact same situation, and they are the reason, plus it negatively affects prospects for completely different people who only share the same race.
Of course you wouldn't
The Elite
BOSS
This is obviously conspiracy.
It's true Hollywood is more diverse than Japan, and we have several Asian-Americans who could portray Major. However, then we come to a different situation in which are the studio are willing to bank on a movie with a lesser-known lead. If the lead was asian, the movie would've been different ie lesser budget.
It's a tricky situation. I would love more asians in lead roles, but I also understand why ScarJo was the lead. Minimize the risk.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
obviously a non-asian.
You bet, Scarjo allegedly cost 17 mil for GitS. That's a big chunk of the budget.
Enough. Please prove your assertation, that the producers of this film asked specifically for Asian American actors? When did the producers ask that? When did that happen? When did they say that none were good enough?
And if people are calling you racist, maybe it's due to the fact that your minimizing valid critique of hollywood and casting choices as whining. You adding that hollywood is racist as a side piece doesn't undercut your negative attitude towards minorities in this very thread that want to have a better discussion about diversity in film.
Don't trivialize conversations like this, thanks.
UnemployedVillain
Member
It's not that tricky. They do it ALL the time with white actors even with major budget films. The same names and examples are repeated over and over in these threads and are just handwaved away
ultracal31
You don't get to bring friends.
I gave you a name which is what you asked.
Also if Hollywood would risk that white guy from john carter and battleship twice then they can risk one time Asian girl but they never will
Zoe
Member
Turns out they shouldn't have risked on ScarJo either after seeing those box office numbers.
This is an excellent point.
Keep digging that hole.
You're justifying racism in Hollywood by using racist ideology/language. We don't solve a problem by using the same thought patterns that got us here in the first place.
What do you gain by defending Hollywood's antiquated thinking?
So you've proven it doesn't apply here by using racist ideology/language that proves it does apply here?
BlueTsunami
there is joy in sucking dick
Mabne if Akira gets made, it can be the savior of the film adaptation of anime. This movie ain't tracking as that sort of film. And yeah, so much for ScarJo putting butts in the seats.
UnemployedVillain
Member
...right. As we all know, Hollywood has never questioned the bankability of women. Sexism is totally unknown in Hollywood.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I never said women in general, I said white women. A women failing in a leading role is a fail for all women, but when they are given chances to lead it's 99% JUST white women. That was my main point
Someone not naming an asian actor doesn't mean that they're in the wrong. That's such a poor and out of touch argument. If the producers wanted to find an Asian American who looked just like the Major, they'd do it, period.
Movie's that have Z-listers can break the box office (shocker, I know!). But if you are relying on a so-called bankable star you can get films like The Great Wall, with Matt Damon being unable to carry that film abroad. So, can someone tell me why he wasn't able to carry that film?
And the film had good promotional material in China, they showed all the stars including Damon, and imo it would have done marginally better if they accurately portrayed cast diversity.
The big lie is that people won't go see a film unless the lead is white.
Movie's that have Z-listers can break the box office (shocker, I know!). But if you are relying on a so-called bankable star you can get films like The Great Wall, with Matt Damon being unable to carry that film abroad. So, can someone tell me why he wasn't able to carry that film?
And the film had good promotional material in China, they showed all the stars including Damon, and imo it would have done marginally better if they accurately portrayed cast diversity.
The big lie is that people won't go see a film unless the lead is white.
Don't even bother. I provided him with a list of possible actresses yesterday and he basically handwaved them all away.
That's not what the original post stated. They weren't saying that sexism isn't an issue in Hollywood.
It's not outside the realm of possibility that Hollywood will blame it on a woman being the central protagonist. It wouldn't be the first and sadly won't be the last time. The point is that this isn't the end of Scarlett Johansson's career because while she still has struggles she faces in the industry due to her gender, she isn't a minority actor. She had the opportunity, which is more that can be said for minority actors who are usually never considered for leads roles, even if the source material calls for it.
Minority actors struggle in the industry. Minority actors who are women have it the worst in Hollywood.
Talking about the plight of one doesn't mean the other doesn't exist.
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