Support NeoGAF

[sikkinixx]

This reads to me like he had a falling out with his brother which influences his view. As others have pointed out the jump between his love for his brother and "he purposely killed a just just because he was black" pops out more than anything in the article to me.

 

[Link]

Apparently I'm not the only one in this thread. Can you grace us with your insight into what this contradiction means?

Despite you always trying to handwave it off, systematic racism exists.

 

[Nokagi]

I dont understand how people cant see that the statement "My brother is not racist" can coexist next to "That black man died because of racism", its silly to see people requesting pictures of Darren Wilson in KKK regalia or Garner saying the N-word to prove that the act itself was fuelled by racism, all this while ignoring that its the system that is designed to discriminate regardless the beliefs of those that enforce it. There is no "other side of the story" or "black brother is hiding something", its reality.

But he didn't say "that black man died because of racism" he flat out told his mother that he thought his brother shot that guy because he was black and then on down said he didn't shoot him because he was black. He didn't word it as you did which would have made more sense.

 

[metalslimer]

I dont understand how people cant see that the statement "My brother is not racist" can coexist next to "That black man died because of racism", its silly to see people requesting pictures of Darren Wilson in KKK regalia or Garner saying the N-word to prove that the act itself was fuelled by racism, all this while ignoring that its the system that is designed to discriminate regardless the beliefs of those that enforce it. There is no "other side of the story" or "black brother is hiding something", its reality.



Whats the trap here?

Exactly, you can think that he didn't intentionally kill him because he was black and think that he was shot because he was black at the same time. I guess it's better to say systematic racism played a part.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

But he didn't say "that black man died because of racism" he flat out told his mother that he thought his brother shot that guy because he was black and then on down said he didn't shoot him because he was black. He didn't word it as you did which would have made more sense.

I think the idea is that people familiar with race relations and police interaction in America would already be aware of that, so it wasn't necessary to spell it out. Of course, as you can see in any race-related thread in Gaf, there will always be those who deny racism unless the victim has been photographed being hung by a KKK member while being stabbed with a sharpened miniature cross that is also burning

 

[Kreed]

Eh?

His brother did a racist action, but he isn't a racist.

nm. DreamDrop trap thread.

All DreamDrop did was take an article and make a thread out of it (originally shared in a completely different thread). He doesn't even comment on it. What's a "trap" about this?

 

[Zhengi]

Despite you always trying to handwave it off, systematic racism exists.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe I have really attempted to "handwave" off systematic racism. I do believe that racism is becoming better in this country, but there are still problems that obviously need to be addressed.

 

[ishibear]

For those struggling to understand, this is very important, and hopefully will help you grasp the overall:

But that’s also when I began to see just how much racism isn’t really about a single act or a single person, but rather a much larger system. A system that calls the recurring death of black male bodies “accidents”.

No matter how my mom had raised us, no matter how much my brother loved my blackness and was so proud of me for who I was, it still didn’t stop another black man from losing his life.

My white brother isn’t a racist – and he didn’t intentionally kill that man because he was black – but that’s not the point. In his case – in Ferguson and in so many other cases – we see the deaths of unarmed black men as “accidents”. And until the day we all recognize them as casualties of something much bigger, we will continue to see black men dead on the news.

Systematic racism is real. Even if a black person is raised to be "nublack" or one of the good ones, in the end, black men are still being killed and well, you're still black whether you accept it or not. If we want change, we have to stop calling these "accidents" and call them what they really are. Otherwise, these "accidents" will continue.

 

[diaspora]

Shit is so real I had to take a knee. "Accidents", "Doing their job", "Aggressive steps" , etc. All ways to dehumanize black people and normalize their deaths.

Dehumanizing stare

 

[Matt]

While the larger point of the op-ed is still valid, what actually happened with his brother is certainly different from most of the high-profile "accidents" we hear about.

It genuinely seems like a real accident that could have killed someone of any color.

 

[mentallyinept]

Based on my reading of the situation here it's difficult for me to say the outcome was influenced by racism, systematic or personal, without a more detailed account of the incident.

This doesn't mean that systemic racism doesn't exist in society, but I don't see enough to categorize this as a part it... yet.

I'll reevaluate my position should more information become available.

 

[……forgetit]

Based on my reading of the situation here it's difficult for me to say the outcome was influenced by racism, systematic or personal, without a more detailed account of the incident.

This doesn't mean that systemic racism doesn't exist in society, but I don't see enough to categorize this as a part it... yet.

I'll reevaluate my position should more information become available.

Wow...I think there was a law and order episode about that.

 

[ishibear]

While the larger point of the op-ed is still valid, what actually happened with his brother is certainly different from most of the high-profile "accidents" we hear about.

It genuinely seems like a real accident that could have killed someone of any color.

Based on my reading of the situation here it's difficult for me to say the outcome was influenced by racism, systematic or personal, without a more detailed account of the incident.

This doesn't mean that systemic racism doesn't exist in society, but I don't see enough to categorize this as a part it... yet.

I'll reevaluate my position should more information become available.

For the love of humanity. Have you two missed the part where he says (and I paraphrase) he's realized this isn't about one person or situation ~ This is about something bigger?

Too many of these incidents are deemed "accidents". Whether it's different this time around or the next, the overall picture being painted is that systematic racism is real.

 

[Matt]

For the love of humanity. Have you two missed the part where he says (and I paraphrase) he's realized this isn't about one person or situation ~ This is about something bigger?

Too many of these incidents are deemed "accidents". Whether it's different this time around or the next, the overall picture being painted is that systematic racism is real.

I said his overall point is a valid one, but the author directly says he feels this man would not be dead if he was white, which means he thinks racism did play a hand in this case.

Frankly his personal story seems to detract from his larger point, rather than enhance it.

 

[Sir Abacus]

Living in the UK, I'm just still trying to wrap my head around how the US can contain such blatant racism and yet it mostly goes ignored. This is all just so ugh.

I'll field this one. There was a Supreme Court case called McClesky v. Kemp. The end result of this decision is that no matter how racist the situation looks, even based on empirical evidence, unless you basically have it on tape with officials saying "we're going to fuck black people up using the law" you can't do shit about it. If you try to sue regarding a law or the implementation of a law based on the fact that it looks fucking racist you have a pretty huge evidentiary hurdle to overcome. So good luck with that.

 

[mentallyinept]

Systematic racism is real. Even if a black person is raised to be "nublack" or one of the good ones, in the end, black men are still being killed and well, you're still black whether you accept it or not. If we want change, we have to stop calling these "accidents" and call them what they really are. Otherwise, these "accidents" will continue.

If your point is that we should stop assuming these incidents are accidents before being properly investigated, I agree. Each one should be evaluated extremely critically. Hell, there is already a system in place for such things; IA/IID.

If your point is that none of these incidents are accidents, I don't agree.

 

[Sir Abacus]

Part of the problem with "department policy" is that it's based off the Tueller Drill. So if someone is "threatening" within 21 feet a lot of department policies justify the use of force, deadly or otherwise.

 

[Jest Chillin]

I said his overall point is a valid one, but the author directly says he feels this man would not be dead if he was white, which means he thinks racism did play a hand in this case.

Frankly his personal story seems to detract from his larger point, rather than enhance it.

How are so many people not understanding Systemic Racism and the difference between it and personal racism?

Systemic Racism, in Law Enforcement is the propagated idea that minorities are more likely to be dangerous and/or guilty. When that kind of thought process is ingrained into an officer, that means that any time they interact with a minority suspect they're going to be more on edge.

Reading the article about the Tennessee shooting, many people seem to accept the "accident" explanation due to the circumstances of the first officer slipping and his gun discharging as a result. However, I immediately wonder.. if his gun was holstered and his hand not on it.. how does it discharge from what had to be a relatively short fall made when he's exiting the car? I'm not familiar with guns enough to say it's not at all possible but it seems much more likely that he had already unlatched his holster and had his hand on his weapon. That's not necessarily wrong if that is the case but I think it speaks to the idea that these officers were already worried about a violent confrontation. That, to me, is a problem.

Approaching minority suspects in relatively innocuous situations with a pre-conceived notion that they're more likely to be violent is what causes inappropriate force.

 

[ishibear]

I said his overall point is a valid one, but the author directly says he feels this man would not be dead if he was white, which means he thinks racism did play a hand in this case.

Frankly his personal story seems to detract from his larger point, rather than enhance it.

I really don't see this as something to take issue with at all. One subjective aspect (if you could call it that) is not enough to derail the overall.

If your point is that we should stop assuming these incidents are accidents before being properly investigated, I agree. Each one should be evaluated extremely critically. Hell, there is already a system in place for such things; IA/IID.

If your point is that none of these incidents are accidents, I don't agree.

The bolded.

 

[mentallyinept]

For the love of humanity. Have you two missed the part where he says (and I paraphrase) he's realized this isn't about one person or situation ~ This is about something bigger?

Too many of these incidents are deemed "accidents". Whether it's different this time around or the next, the overall picture being painted is that systematic racism is real.

My post was not an evaluation of whether systemic racism exists or not.

It was speaking specifically to whether this incident was driven by racism, which the author made a specific claim that it was.

EDIT:

The bolded.

Seems like we are on the same page.

 

[Sir Abacus]

Because a black guy would have totally come out of this situation alive. Oh wait, black people can't even carry toy weapons in Walmart in a non-threatening manner before being shot.

No systemic racism here folks. Just "accidents".

 

[remist]

After reading about the incident in question, this article just seems nonsensical. There may be a good point to be made, but his brothers situation isn't a good example to be using.

 

[Enzom21]

nm. DreamDrop trap thread.

What's the trap? Elaborate please.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

lmao @ you questioning his life already tho, pre-edit

What did it say pre-edit?

 

[RangerX]

I agree with his overarching sentiment but there seems to be a lot missing from the story. It never mentions him talking to his brother to give his version of events.

 

[Malyse]

Is this true?

I knew it was bad, but fuck, that is unreal.

No, but probably yes.

The study is authority figures, not just cops, and black people, not just men. So no. However, this was only the reported cases and only the ones they could find and confirm, so there is an all too real possibility that the numbers are actually higher. Also, the majority are police IIRC.

It's 130 pages

 

[Vermillion]

I gotta be honest... I'm interested in if he had a conversation with his brother/what it was about.

At the same time, I can understand how a person may not want to reveal that information. Still makes the article feel... lacking.

Second, this naturally implies that any killing of black men (by any person, including other black men) can stem from systemic racism. Race isn't an all-consuming trait except in the sense that society makes it one. A person that is allegedly so steeped in black culture isn't any more likely to think of black people as aggressive than an actual black person is. Particularly if they're accepted into that culture.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

wow....

 

[FZZ]

Systemic racism exists and there's definitely a lot of "accidents" which is fucked up beyond belief.

But I didn't understand what he meant by yes his brother shot him because he was black. Was his brother racist? Does systemic racism make cops think black men are more dangerous which is why he shot him?

I didn't understand that part.

 

[striferser]

My take on this
His brother is not racist, but because he is a cop, and cop treated killing a black man is an accident. The brother is exposed to other cop getting away easy from killing a black man on 'accident'.

That leave pay must be real good huh?

The problem is with they system, as it said in the article. But yeah, that part with the mother then go straight to conclusion is confusing.

 

[hateradio]

That's very strange. He needed to clear up why he thought his brother did what he did, instead of just giving the opinion and not saying more than the system contributes to such cases.

Dehumanizing stare

I'm surprised there isn't a user by that name so far.

 

[funkypie]

Didn't that black cop shoot an unarmed white kid round same time aS Ferguson but went largely unreported. my point being people Make mistakes all the time regardless of their skin colour.

The guy in the article contradicts himself to.

 

[Enzom21]

Didn't that black cop shoot an unarmed white kid round same time aS Ferguson but went largely unreported. my point being people Make mistakes all the time regardless of their skin colour.

The guy in the article contradicts himself to.

Are you really trying to use that incident to dismiss decades of systemic racism? It is not like what happened in Ferguson is some sort of rare occurrence in this country.

How did he contradict himself?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Didn't that black cop shoot an unarmed white kid round same time aS Ferguson but went largely unreported. my point being people Make mistakes all the time regardless of their skin colour.

The guy in the article contradicts himself to.

Is this copy-pasted from a right-wing Facebook post

 

[No Love]

Amazing. Jaw dropped after reading this.

 

[Matt]

How are so many people not understanding Systemic Racism and the difference between it and personal racism?

Systemic Racism, in Law Enforcement is the propagated idea that minorities are more likely to be dangerous and/or guilty. When that kind of thought process is ingrained into an officer, that means that any time they interact with a minority suspect they're going to be more on edge.

Reading the article about the Tennessee shooting, many people seem to accept the "accident" explanation due to the circumstances of the first officer slipping and his gun discharging as a result. However, I immediately wonder.. if his gun was holstered and his hand not on it.. how does it discharge from what had to be a relatively short fall made when he's exiting the car? I'm not familiar with guns enough to say it's not at all possible but it seems much more likely that he had already unlatched his holster and had his hand on his weapon. That's not necessarily wrong if that is the case but I think it speaks to the idea that these officers were already worried about a violent confrontation. That, to me, is a problem.

Approaching minority suspects in relatively innocuous situations with a pre-conceived notion that they're more likely to be violent is what causes inappropriate force.

I don't know why people keep questioning my understanding of the article. I get the larger point of it, and I AGREE with the larger point.

But the author chose to frame that argument around his brother's experience, and I do not feel, based on the information we have (which of course could be inaccurate or missing key information), that what happened with his brother is really the same as so many of these tragedies.

You are making assumptions about the manner the other cop was approaching the car, assuming it was determined by the driver's race. It may have been, but the article says the cops approached the car after a "pursuit." Perhaps the pursuit was a hostile one, and therefore maybe justifying the other cop's hand on his gun?

Or maybe it wasn't and the gun still went off when he fell?

Or maybe the other cop had his hand on his gun, but the brother did not, and only pulled his gun when he heard the shot?

As far as we know, the bother was in a tense situation, heard a gun shot, and reacted in a very, very unfortunate, but perhaps understandable, way. I mean, in his mind the only reason to hear a gunshot at that point was if the subject was firing at them, or possibly if his partner was firing at the subject, which (theoretically) he only would have done if forced to by the subjects actions.

Look, institutional racism is a monumental problem in the United States, and it causes far, far, FAR too many tragedies a year. But this article is the one that was posted here, and I have some issues with this article. That's it, that's all i'm saying.

 

[Matt]

I really don't see this as something to take issue with at all. One subjective aspect (if you could call it that) is not enough to derail the overall.

That's totally valid, but I actually don't view the difference between a real, valid (though still of course horrible) accident and the kind of "accidents" that are driven by institutional racism as a minor point. Doing so lumps all cops together and paints all interactions between minorities and cops as inherently racist, which does a disservice to both the good cops out there, and diminishes the real tragedies.

 

[Arials]

Did you see the video about a month back where a cop asks a dude for his ID, when dude goes to reach for it . The cop damn near unloads his gun into the guy at point blank range. Thank god the cop was terrible shot. Despite the whole thing being on camera the cop said the guy "Reached aggressively".

Here in the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux17aho5CSM

That is shockingly incompetent. How much training does the average American cop actually get before they're given a gun?

This is a description of the firearms training procedure for UK police I just found on a British government website:

Officers who, having completed a minimum of two years 'on the beat', wish to become Firearms Officers have to undergo a rigorous selection procedure. During this they will have to demonstrate their knowledge of the law, their appropriate and proportional use of force, their communication skills and their basic common sense. If successful in the application stage they will then go on to an assessment stage where their skills, temperament and fitness will be evaluated. If they pass this phase they will then begin the courses that will teach them weapon skills and tactics.

Without doubt the training is challenging. Officers are placed under immense pressure to test their ability to become Authorised Firearms Officers. If they are successful on their courses they will join their respective firearms units.

Spending a bit of tax money implementing something like that might stop so many "accidents" happening...

 

[Jmanunknown]

I totally understand and empathize with this guy, but this truly sounds like an accident on his brothers part after the other cop fell and accidentally discharged his weapon. No quotes needed around accident on this one...

See this is the damn problem when you pull out your gun and shoot and kill innocent people that is no accident. That is what the guy's brother did he literally meant to kill the guy in the car so no it was no accident. Police in the US are trained to shoot to kill so once the guy's brother fired his gun it was no accident.


The young man(Greg Thompson, Jr) who had his life cut short in this incident is another in a long list of what the police would mark up as justifiable homicides. The justice system does not care whether you are a young or old male or female white, black, hispanic, asian etc. if the police followed procedure they can literally get away with killing you despite you absolutely doing nothing wrong. I know it is a frightening thing to think about but, honestly more people should think about it given the power the police have.


As for the story I feel his brother's incident has less do with race and more to do with the power police have over citizen's where they can kill innocent people and just walk away like they did nothing wrong.

 

[Matt]

See this is the damn problem when you pull out your gun and shoot and kill innocent people that is no accident. That is what the guy's brother did he literally meant to kill the guy in the car so no it was no accident. Police in the US are trained to shoot to kill so once the guy's brother fired his gun it was no accident.


The young man(Greg Thompson, Jr) who had his life cut short in this incident is another in a long list of what the police would mark up as justifiable homicides. The justice system does not care whether you are a young or old male or female white, black, hispanic, asian etc. if the police followed procedure they can literally get away with killing you despite you absolutely doing nothing wrong. I know it is a frightening thing to think about but, honestly more people should think about it given the power the police have.


As for the story I feel his brother's incident has less do with race and more to do with the power police have over citizen's where they can kill innocent people and just walk away like they did nothing wrong.

Well that's certainly a major problem as well, although I don't agree with the idea that there can be no accidents. Cops are humans too, and mistakes will happen, period.

 

[Jmanunknown]

Well that's certainly a major problem as well, although I don't agree with the idea that there can be no accidents. Cops are humans too, and mistakes will happen, period.

Yes accidents can happen but, like I said Police in the US are trained to shoot to kill so once they decide to shoot is it not reasonable to say that they are shooting to kill? Also where did I say their can be no accidents? Cops maybe humans too but, they are humans who carry deadly weapons and to an extent have a license to kill without consequence.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Spending a bit of tax money implementing something like that might stop so many "accidents" happening...

Unfortunately that won't work to well in a country where there are more guns than people.

 

[starwarsfan541]

This reads to me like he had a falling out with his brother which influences his view. As others have pointed out the jump between his love for his brother and "he purposely killed a just just because he was black" pops out more than anything in the article to me.

Agreed, police-minority issues are important though and need more political focus,

EDIT: http://www.wilsonpost.com/officers-cleared-in-shooting-death-cms-75257

Guessing this is the event, sounds a bit weird, but plausible

 

[Evil_Silver]

This article makes me think the problem is unfixable

Because human nature makes sure these things happen over and over and over again until the end of time?

On a less cynical note, many social problems are not completely fixable but can be greatly reduced in scope. In this case, these problems can be greatly minimized if these police departments would HOLD THEIR FUCKING COPS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR FUCKING ACTIONS!

 

[Matt]

Yes accidents can happen but, like I said Police in the US are trained to shoot to kill so once they decide to shoot is it not reasonable to say that they are shooting to kill? Also where did I say their can be no accidents? Cops maybe humans too but, they are humans who carry deadly weapons and to an extent have a license to kill without consequence.

Well, yes, the "accident" refers to the motive being a mistaken one. One they fire they intend to kill, so that is not exactly an "accident."

Theoretically, accidental shooting are a big deal and are carefully investigated to find out where the mistake was made, and administrative (or criminal) actions are taken accordingly. Now obviously that process doesn't work as it should in far too many cases, but that's still the idea.

 

[TheJLC]

Accidental shooting? He probably means justifiable shooting. Accidental shootings end in charges And termination of the officer. An officer just isn't going to accidentally shoot someone and have the chief or superintendent defending him/her in a press conference.

But this guy is confused by calling his brother's actions racist and saying he's not racist. Shooting and unarmed man, regardless of race, is not racist and not unjustifiable. However shooting a man only because of his or her race is. This guy is saying his brother killing a black man is racist but he isnt.

 

[diaspora]

I think what he's saying is that his brother didn't set out to kill a black guy, but he killed him because of the prejudices people- including his brother carry with them regarding black men.

 

[Jmanunknown]

Well, yes, the "accident" refers to the motive being a mistaken one. One they fire they intend to kill, so that is not exactly an "accident."

Ok I get where you are coming from.

Theoretically, accidental shooting are a big deal and are carefully investigated to find out where the mistake was made, and administrative (or criminal) actions are taken accordingly. Now obviously that process doesn't work as it should in far too many cases, but that's still the idea.

At least you get how messed up the process is. It leads to a lot of police officers getting away with killing innocent people including kids.

 

[Valhelm]

I think there is a big difference between "He shot him because he was Black" and "He would not have shot a white person in that situation."

The American police is a horribly racist institution, but I doubt that many cops actively try to kill Black men. Instead, the nature of police ensures that the killing of Black men (and Hispanic men, to a lesser degree) is not judged as harshly as the killing of other people.

I do not believe that either Darren Wilson or even George Zimmerman actually wanted to kill a Black person. But if Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin had been white in those situations, they would not have been shot. Consciously or not, the killers would have viewed their lives as more valuable in that circumstance.

I think what he's saying is that his brother didn't set out to kill a black guy, but he killed him because of the prejudices people- including his brother carry with them regarding black men.

This is my point of view, but I'm not sure if that's exactly what the writer is arguing.

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

Because human nature makes sure these things happen over and over and over again until the end of time?

On a less cynical note, many social problems are not completely fixable but can be greatly reduced in scope. In this case, these problems can be greatly minimized if these police departments would HOLD THEIR FUCKING COPS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR FUCKING ACTIONS!

Yeah, you're right. I just found the article depressing since American society has such a long way to go.