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Hardball transcript: Warning, Larry Thurlow ownage (swiftboat/Kerry related)

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Azih

Member
Thing is that Malkin refused to come out and accuse Kerry of shooting himself and Matthews refused to let Malkin make a hit and run accusation by implication.

Edit: Matthews is an unread idiot, and Malkin is manipulative and dishonest. But in this instance Matthews nullifed Malkin.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
JoshuaJSlone said:
Chris Matthews being stupid and Michelle Malkin being stupid are not mutually exclusive possibilities.

I don't know anything about Chris Matthews or his show, but all he looked was belligerent, not stupid. She came off as an idiot. But again, it's a moot point since she's cute.
 

Makura

Member
Willco said:
Listen, I haven't read the book. I've never watched Hardball before. And the only one who looked stupid in that clip was her.

But it's alright, because she is cute.

Even if someone is right, it's easy to make them look stupid, flustered and indecisive if you keep shouting at them and not letting them answer a question. But thats what Matthew's show is all about apparently.
 

Azih

Member
Makura said:
Even if someone is right, it's easy to make them look stupid, flustered and indecisive if you keep shouting at them and not letting them answer a question. But thats what Matthew's show is all about apparently.


Edit: I mean, I fully understand what you mean Makura and I agree with you, but do you see why people don't like Fox News now?
 

Dilbert

Member
Makura said:
Even if someone is right, it's easy to make them look stupid, flustered and indecisive if you keep shouting at them and not letting them answer a question.
BUT SHE WAS WRONG.

Jesus fucking Christ. I need to start abusing downers or something.
 

Makura

Member
Azih said:
Oh good god.

I think you know exactly what I'm referring to. It seems to be the modus operandi of Matthews and his ilk.

1. Put up a straw man
2. Try to make the person admit to the straw man

Audience/Gullible viewer: *Eyes glaze over* "Oh my goodness, he/she wouldn't answer the question! TEH Liiar!!!1/They lack any integrity whasoever!!!, etc., etc.,....
 
Makura said:
Even if someone is right, it's easy to make them look stupid, flustered and indecisive if you keep shouting at them and not letting them answer a question.

And that's the Bill O'Reilly difference!
 

Azih

Member
Makura said:
Oh please, I think you know exactly what I'm referring to. It seems to be the modus operandi of Matthews and his ilk.

1. Put up a straw man
2. Try to make the person admit to the straw man

Audience/Gullible viewer: *Eyes glaze over* "Oh my goodness, he/she wouldn't answer the question! TEH Liiar!!!1/They lack any integrity whasoever!!!, etc., etc.,....

I edited to clarify my position Makura, and your response just makes it more obvious.

Don't you see why people don't like Fox News now? The whole freaking channel does exactly what you're complaining about.
 

Makura

Member
Yeah, I saw that, sorry.

I don't like FOX either...

Well...their general news is as good as anybody's, not that that is saying much. It's the op-ed shows like Hannity and O'Reilly that you're referring to right?
 
Makura, I've given Malkin much of the benefit of the doubt, and you still haven't responded to the fabricated quote in her "genuine response," that totally distorts what Willie Brown said, but I think your interpretation of her "self-inflicted wounds" statements are pushing it.

Your bolding:

MALKIN: Well, yes. Why don‘t people ask him more specific questions about the shrapnel in his leg. They are legitimate questions about whether or not it was a self-inflicted wound.

My bolding:

MALKIN: Some of the soldiers have made allegations that these were self-inflicted wounds.

MALKIN: That these were self-inflicted wounds.

She's refering to accusations made in the book by Thurlow and others that he got purple hearts for getting wounds from non-enemy fire, but she's not just talking about the shrapnel incident. She's saying that she doubts the legitimacy of all of Kerry's awards, and she implicitly accepts Thurlow's "master plan" hypothesis.
 
Malkin was asked on to cover her book, which is about Japanese internment, not Kerry. Then they ask her to do the Swift Boat thing before, and God forbid, she attempts to put across the points made by the authors of the book. She doesn't say she believes them; she's just trying to add some things as someone who has actually read the book, which Matthews had not. For her contribution, she's belittled and berated, and for one final insult, she's pushed off the show without a chance to discuss her own work.

Probably just as well, considering how Matthews would have acted.
 

Azih

Member
Makura said:
Well...their general news is as good as anybody's, not that that is saying much. It's the op-ed shows like Hannity and O'Reilly that you're referring to right?

Op Ed shows for certain (Hardball is Op Ed), but even the general news shows at Fox seem to be infected with the belligerent argumentative streak that I despise from Matthews, O'Reilly, Hannity. For example the Fox News interview with Wesley Clark back during the Democrat elections, the generic news caster came right out with a "Why don't you support our troops?" accusation/question. Pretty much every interview in general news segment with liberalish guests on Fox that i've seen (and I haven't seen much, I only saw it regularly when I was in Pakistan of all places), had the interviewer and the interviewee flat out arguing. That struck me as an extremely bizzare thing because those are *news* segments and not op ed pieces. And even Op Ed pieces to my mind should have the host acting as MODERATOR, not advocate.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
Is Michelle Malkin adopted or is that her marital name?

Edit: I could have just looked it up. Filipino, no wonder the name sounds distinctly not Asian. I have yet to meet a conservative Asian in my life, though most are apolitical. LOL, and she's a paleo-con too.
 

teiresias

Member
I don't know what's so hard about saying yes or no when you're asked if you believe Kerry pointed a gun at his leg and pulled the trigger.
 
teiresias said:
I don't know what's so hard about saying yes or no when you're asked if you believe Kerry pointed a gun at his leg and pulled the trigger.
I don't know what's so hard about comprehending that Michelle Malkin never should have been asked that question.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
I don't know what's so hard about comprehending that Michelle Malkin never should have been asked that question.
Let's not play retard. She was obviously trying to disseminate the information (whether she believed it or not is non-critical) implicitly without appearing to backing it fully in case it appears to be mendacious. So then people will automatically assume if there's smoke, there's gotta be fire. Her tactic couldn't stand up to direct questioning.
 
Stele said:
Let's not play retard.
The tolerant left in action.

She was obviously trying to disseminate the information (whether she believed it or not is non-critical) implicitly without appearing to backing it fully in case it appears to be mendacious. So then people will automatically assume if there's smoke, there's gotta be fire.
No, she was trying to promote her book and was bait-and-switched into talking about Unfit For Command instead, and when (God forbid) she actually tried to bring up the points that the authors had made, Matthews grossly distorted them and tried to get a yes/no answer on a point she never made, as if she were the book's author.

Her tactic couldn't stand up to direct questioning.
Actually, we'll never know whether it could or not, because she was never actually given the opportunity to say anything at all. She was cut off after three or four words every time.
 

Makura

Member
Journeywalker said:
you still haven't responded to the fabricated quote in her "genuine response," that totally distorts what Willie Brown said.

Ok.

MichelleMalkin.com said:
4) Willie Brown expresses exasperation over Swift Boat Vets' questions about Kerry's wounds. He says: "There are questions about the shrapnel wounds. So what else is there? How much he got shot? How deep? How much shrapnel does he have?

MSNBC Transcript said:
BROWN:...There‘s no question about any of those things. So what else is there to discuss? How much he got shot, how deep, how much shrapnel?


Where is the distortion?
 

teiresias

Member
I don't know what's so hard about comprehending that Michelle Malkin never should have been asked that question.

If she's willing to bring up accusations she should be willing to state whether she believes those allegations or not.

Actually, we'll never know whether it could or not, because she was never actually given the opportunity to say anything at all. She was cut off after three or four words every time.

All it would have taken was one word from her and his question would have been answered. Her own fault.

If the question is as ridiculous as you seem to think it is, that it shouldn't have even been asked, then there should have been no problem with her saying No and getting it out of the way.
 
teiresias said:
If she's willing to bring up accusations she should be willing to state whether she believes those allegations or not.
It was a segment discussing a book and the accusations therein.
 
Kobun Heat said:
I don't know what's so hard about comprehending that Michelle Malkin never should have been asked that question.
teiresias said:
All it would have taken was one word from her and his question would have been answered. Her own fault.

Which is why I believe there was quite stupidity on both sides. She mentions self-inflicted wounds, he's stupid to get "shot himself" from that. However, once he asked specifically about "shot himself" five times, she could've said "No" and corrected him.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Actually, we'll never know whether it could or not, because she was never actually given the opportunity to say anything at all. She was cut off after three or four words every time.

She was stalling. She was gonna talk her way around the question the way most of these bullshitters do. He asked her a yes/no question repeatedly, and she refused to give a yes/no response. She was simply going to repeat the same thing she said before and try to make it seem like she was just reporting it and not being the source. People take sympathy on the messenger, even if he has horns sometimes. If you don't think this is exactly what she was doing, you're pretty naive.

That said, I don't anyone with a shred of dignity should be defending either of these gasbags. Malkin is a lying bitch, and Matthews is an obnoxious shithead. Hardball...my ass. The guy lobs softballs at the people who deserve to be grilled, and grills the few sheep dumber than himself. Oh, and didn't he used to pander to Arianna Huffington when she was on her Clinton witch hunt too? Ugh, so many things I don't like about that guy. PEACE.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
LOL! Called Chris Matthew's number to give him a piece of my mind just now, and the voice box is full. That asshole's lucky. :D PEACE.
 

tenchir

Member
Haha, this reminded me of highschool drama. I had a female friend(1st) who really hated another of my female friend(2nd), she would spread rumors about her by saying things she "heard" from other people. For example, she(1st) told me and my friends that she heard that the 2nd friend have been cheating on her boyfriend, so I asked her if she thinks if it's true or not, she then replied "I just heard it from this person." I wanted to question her further, but I don't really wanted to make her pissed off at me.
 

KingV

Member
What really needs to happen is for Kerry to release his FULL military record, so we can see who put him in for what medals, and ask those people the story. While he has released some snippets of his record, the whole thing is not there. There's enough proven shadiness on the part of the Kerry Campaign on Kerry's Vietnam service that I think it's legitimate to question other aspects as well.

As a Naval Officer, I'm inclined to believe that if so many of his fellow officers who were near enough to his boat to see his actions say he may not have adhered to the highest standards of Officer Like Conduct, that they may be on to something. While the guys on his boat liking him may mean he's a good guy, and he took care of his men, that's not exactly the same thing as doing your job as an Officer. In fact, at times it can be the exact opposite. Part of being a good Officer is going to bat for your guys, and they'll generally like it when you do this, but another part of it is making them do things that they need to but would rather not. For my part, I generally like command decisions that essentially benefit me in the short run, less work, go home early, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm doing a good job of helping complete the mission. In other words it's highly possible that Kerry could have been very well-liked by his crew, but a crap Officer. Personally, how Kerry conducted himself after Vietnam is a much more important issue to me, and I think that those on the right that are questioning the medals are wasting their time on an unimportant issue, that's likely to never be cleared up satisfactorily.
 

Dilbert

Member
KingV said:
What really needs to happen is for Bush to release his FULL military record, so we can see who can actually verify where the hell he was, and ask those people the story. While he has released some snippets of his record, the whole thing is not there. There's enough proven shadiness on the part of the Bush Campaign on Bush's Vietnam service that I think it's legitimate to question other aspects as well.
Fixed.
 

KingV

Member
-jinx- said:

I agree, but it's my understanding that he actually did. I actually wouldn't be surprised if 100% full copies of either's military record don't actually exist anymore. What we're seeing might be all there is that is actually left. I can't imagine why you would keep them for 35 years, and given that they attempted to do just that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they're incomplete after 30 years of god knows what kind of moving around, resorting, etc.
 
Boy, it's really funny to see conservatives get so riled up over the one time one of their own was on an aggressive talk show.

Using the Conservative Principle of Equivalence, this is exactly the same as decades of belligerent straw men attacks by conservative talk show hosts!

Not that I agree with what Matthews did in any way, but - please don't act so hurt and surprised.
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
KingV said:
I agree, but it's my understanding that he actually did. I actually wouldn't be surprised if 100% full copies of either's military record don't actually exist anymore. What we're seeing might be all there is that is actually left. I can't imagine why you would keep them for 35 years, and given that they attempted to do just that it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they're incomplete after 30 years of god knows what kind of moving around, resorting, etc.

Bush never released his full military record...it's been unintentionally destroyed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/23/politics/main631547.shtml

Hmmmmm
 

KingV

Member
Never underestimate the ineptitude of big government at simple crap. People's records get lost all the time, I personally know at least 3 people out of the 30 in my class that have had to re enter their entire security clearance due to the records being lost in the last 6 months. But of course, it must've been a conspiracy dating back to 1996 when the microfiche was damaged, according to the linked article. Perhaps Clinton was in on it as well.
 

KingV

Member
I think the Cambodia issue is a pretty damning lie. There's no question that he was lying, or at least, embellishing greatly the stories of Christmas Eve in Cambodia, This US News and World Report article is about as succint of an account of events that led to this revelation as I can find.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040830/opinion/30barone.htm

He went to Paris to meet with the Viet Cong as documented in the book "Winter Soldiers", while still a Naval Reserve Officer, this to me, is incredibly despicable. It's no stretch at all to call it treasonous. You may disagree, but as a Naval Officer it hits close to my heart as beyond low.

The fact that he stood behind and beside the "soldiers" at the Winter Soldiers Hearing in front of Congress also raises questions to me. Why were so many of these men later exposed as frauds that never were even actually in the military, much less in Vietnam? Why did John Kerrey stand beside them? Why are so few people asking these questions?

I'll let you look for links on "Winter Soldier" yourself, there's quite a bit of information out there but most of it is pretty partisan, due to the election year, so I don't feel comfortable posting any of it as just a fact-checking piece.

Edit: wait found one. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Winter Soldier Investigation
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Oh come on. At least Kerry went to Nam. Bush didn't even report to duty in the reserves, and the evidence to support him has magically disappeared. Kerry goes to war, gets 3 purple hearts and he's being harassed b/c of 1 of them? Come on. Two chickenhawks in the White House should be the ones on the hot plate. I don't like Kerry, but I think it's absurd that his military record is being questioned. As John McCain said, move the fuck on. PEACE.
 

KingV

Member
If that's directed at me, I'm not really questioning his Vietnam service, per se, but more like the things he did afterwards, and the things that he said about his Vietnam service after the fact. The "I spent Christmas night in Cambodia" meme has been spread by Kerry for damn near 30 years as a turning point in his Political ideology, and it's a bold faced lie that was supposedly "Seared" into his memory. It's despicable. I'm not a huge fan of Bush, but I'd definitely prefer his agenda to Kerry's sliminess.

It's too bad Lieberman didn't get the nomination, at least he seemed honest.
 
Generally, when someone says, "There's no question about these things..." He doesn't mean, "There are questions about these things." Just my observation.
 

KingV

Member
Sorry, perhaps I'm not explaining myself well, I mean to say that I don't think that what Kerry did or did not to in the Vietnam War itself is very important, mostly because it will never be settled either way conclusively, since it's just his word vs. someone else's. Who's right? I don't really know. The medals, in particular, are a non-issue, a straw-man. The other proven, chronic lies and political grandstanding at the sides of liars are much more damning to me, and much more indicative of a possible future political career.
 
whats funny is that senile old fuck Bob Dole criticized Kerry's service, when i believe its on record that Dole himself got one of his purple hearts from WW2 because he threw his grenade all limpwristd and it bounced off a tree and blew his own fuckin leg up.
 

KingV

Member
You can't get a purple heart for hurting yourself, not legally anyway. It's very clear that the injury has to be sustained due to enemy fire. Bob Dole did get blown up by another soldier's grenade in WWII, AFAIK he received no purple heart for that, but I'll admit I never researched it.
 

capslock

Is jealous of Matlock's emoticon
KingV said:
I think the Cambodia issue is a pretty damning lie. There's no question that he was lying, or at least, embellishing greatly the stories of Christmas Eve in Cambodia, This US News and World Report article is about as succint of an account of events that led to this revelation as I can find.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040830/opinion/30barone.htm



http://slate.msn.com/id/2105529/



KingV said:
You can't get a purple heart for hurting yourself, not legally anyway. It's very clear that the injury has to be sustained due to enemy fire. Bob Dole did get blown up by another soldier's grenade in WWII, AFAIK he received no purple heart for that, but I'll admit I never researched it.




In a 1988 campaign-trail autobiography, here's how Dole described the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart: "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."
-- Josh Marshall
 

AntoneM

Member
MATTHEWS: What do you mean by self-inflicted? Are you saying he shot himself on purpose? Is that what you‘re saying?


if she had just said: "no I'm not, however...."

this all would have been avoided
 

KingV

Member
"The PURPLE HEART is awarded to members of the armed forces of the U.S. who are wounded by an instrument of war in the hands of the enemy and posthumously to the next of kin in the name of those who are killed in action or die of wounds received in action. It is specifically a combat decoration."

I don't know how the powers that be make the distinction, but clearly Bob Dole was in a combat situation. Some say Kerry was, some say he wasn't. I'm not entirely. But like I said, I'm trying to distance myself from whether or not Kerry should have received a Purple heart. If it was self inflicted probably not, Dole probably should not have either in that case. I don't think it's that important.

That's the first I've seen refuting the Cambodia evidence at all. The only other information I've seen is Kerry's back tracking. Why did he mention that President Nixon was saying there was nobody in Cambodia? Nixon was not President in 1968. Now he says it wasn't actually on Christmas but in 1969. His campaign has come out and said that Kerry probably wasn't in Cambodia on Christmas Eve. He either lied or forgot Christmas.

here's a link to the scan of the original quote of Kerry saying he was in Cambodia listening to President Nixon on Christmas eve in 1968. It's from a microfiche of an old newspaper, and it's not really large enough to read easily, but there's excerpts.

http://instapundit.com/archives/017129.php

I think the reason that Slate response is the only response I've seen trying to rebutt the claim that Kerry wasn't actually in Cambodia is that everyone else realized they were caught in a lie. I mean, Kerry himself has backed off from that statement.
 
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