Support NeoGAF

[maximum360]

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1610985,00.asp

The DVD Forum this week approved HD-DVD 1.0, a specification that will compete with Blu-Ray for the future of the DVD disc format.
According to the DVD Forum's web site, the DVD Forum approved the specification on June 9 or 10. In November, the consortium approved version 0.9, which defines a 15-Gbyte single layer DVD disc and a 30-Gbyte dual-layer disc.

The approval appears to set the stage for yet another optical storage standards battle. The DVD Forum's member list includes companies like NEC and Toshiba, who developed the current DVD-R and DVD-RW specifications.

Meanwhile, the separate Blu-Ray camp has proposed a rival specification, with some flexibility in its specification: for example, a single-layer disc can hold 23.3 GB, 25 GB or 27 GB, while a dual-layer disc will be able to store 46.6 GB, 50 GB or 54 GB of data.


The Blu-Ray Disc Founders Association is led by Sony and Dell. Sony has committed itself to shipping second-generation consumer-oriented Blu-ray video recorders by the end of the year, supporting single-side, dual-layer rewriteable discs with a total capacity of 50 GB. The only Blu-ray recorder currently available in Japan is the Sony BDZ-S77, which is priced at $2,700; the discs themsevles cost about $23 per disc.

Companies like LG Electronics, Matsuhsita, Mitsubishi, and Thomson have so far remained agnostic, and supported both of the rival formats.

http://www.dvdforum.org/26scmtg-resolution.htm

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=412474

It seems M$ has made some headway.

HD-DVD will allow a choice of three different encoding formats (MPEG2, MPEG4, and WM9).

It looks like we now have a pro M$ and pro Sony standard getting ready just in time for the next gen consoles.

 

[BuddyC]

...

 

[Akira]

How many times has HD-DVD been approved?

 

[GigaDrive]

HD-DVD in Xbox Next - Blu-Ray in PS3 ?

 

[IJoel]

Don't care much personally as I'm getting both PS3 and Xbox 2.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

Too cost prohibitive=them being absent in both consoles. (esp. in Xenon) This is also repetitive news.

 

[Sho Nuff]

Would it be expensive to implement this in the new consoles? It's not like it uses any new media, it just taxes the processor(s) more, right?

 

[jett]

I doubt the new consoles will be using any of this crap. The media is too expensive now, and will remain expensive during the time the next-gen consoles will supposedly come out.

 

[DopeyFish]

well they could use the drives... launch games being DVDs or something... and then when media prices go down then they could start using the newer media

 

[hirokazu]

...Blu-Ray only supports MPEG2 like regular DVDs, right? or does it also support MPEG4, as this HD-DVD does?

don't see a real need for WM9 format though...

 

[DopeyFish]

...Blu-Ray only supports MPEG2 like regular DVDs, right? or does it also support MPEG4, as this HD-DVD does?

don't see a real need for WM9 format though...

WM9 is still the best looking thing I've seen

*looks at T2 *drools**

 

[TAJ]

>>>HD-DVD will allow a choice of three different encoding formats (MPEG2, MPEG4, and WM9).<<<

FuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuCK!!! I knew this is where they were heading, based on some vague wording a few weeks ago. Damn. WM9 needs to be the fucking STANDARD. Gah!

 

[TAJ]

>>>WM9 is still the best looking thing I've seen

*looks at T2 *drools**<<<

And T2 WM9 is only a ~6 gigabyte file. (not even the full 7.95 gigabytes of a DVD-9) Imagine how nice it would have been with several times the bit-rate to work with.

 

[Sho Nuff]

The studios are going to freak, because this is the LAST FORMAT you will ever need to buy.

Seriously -- blow a DVD up to a 100-inch screen and you'll see there's room for improvement. Blow something in 1080i up to that screen and you'll be like "SHIZNIT THAT IS KICK ASS."

Basically, at high-bitrate 1080i, I honestly don't think there's any room for improvement. Lucas shot Episode 2 in 1080 for godsakes!

 

[MightyHedgehog]

And T2 WM9 is only a ~6 gigabyte file. (not even the full 7.95 gigabytes of a DVD-9) Imagine how nice it would have been with several times the bit-rate to work with.

Wait a minute...is this T2 WM9 media 1080i or 1080p at around 6GB?

 

[hirokazu]

>>>WM9 is still the best looking thing I've seen

*looks at T2 *drools**<<<

And T2 WM9 is only a ~6 gigabyte file. (not even the full 7.95 gigabytes of a DVD-9) Imagine how nice it would have been with several times the bit-rate to work with.

err, isn't DVD-9 capacity 9.4GB, hence the number 9?

anyhow, we never got that Extreme Edition T2 that came with the hi-res WM9, around the time that came out in the US, they only just released the Ultimate Edition in Australia =/ not only that, the removed some of the Easter Eggs, as well as the theatrical cut and that extended cut with the alternate ending from our release...

 

[TAJ]

>>>Wait a minute...is this T2 WM9 media 1080i or 1080p at around 6GB?<<<

1080p Terminator 2 stuffed into 6GB. It was actually only 1440 horizontal pixels instead of 1920, (because of concerns over processing power requirements) but a full 1080p vertically.
They could have fit a full 1920X1080p on a whole DVD-9 disc, and maintained the same compression ratio.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Is the WM9 1080p T2 version encoded with Dolby Digital 5.1, too? If so, then HD-DVD may well be the best format, outside of its smaller capacity compared to BR.

 

[TAJ]

>>>err, isn't DVD-9 capacity 9.4GB, hence the number 9?<<<

They actually fudged the number in two ways to get the DVD-9 number. First, they used "marketing gigs" instead of gigabytes, then rounded up from 8.54 "gigs" to 9 "gigs".
By "marketing gigs", I mean billions of bytes, instead of gigabytes, which is not the same thing. A DVD-9 has a capacity of exactly 7.95 gigabytes.

 

[TAJ]

>>>Is the WM9 1080p T2 version encoded with Dolby Digital 5.1, too?<<<

It's in 5.1, yes.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Companies like LG Electronics, Matsuhsita, Mitsubishi, and Thomson have so far remained agnostic, and supported both of the rival formats.

What kind of fucked reporting is this ?

Someone is paying some mad cash to make it seems that only Sony is behind this: last I checked all those companies just listed are Blu-Ray Founding-Group members.

 

[tedtropy]

While this newfound massive storage capability is great for movies, does the average game really need that much disc space? If I have to deal with a second DVD every now and then to save a significant chunk off the price of a console, then I can live with it. If you want a high-end DVD player, buy a high-end DVD player, let's not let such functionality drive up the cost of what are, at heart, gaming machines...

 

[human5892]

While this newfound massive storage capability is great for movies, does the average game really need that much disc space? If I have to deal with a second DVD every now and then to save a significant chunk off the price of a console, then I can live with it. If you want a high-end DVD player, buy a high-end DVD player, let's not let such functionality drive up the cost of what are, at heart, gaming machines...

I was just going to say something like this. I don't see the benefits in putting expensive new drives in the next-gen systems when many developers don't even fill a standard DVD. And it's not like it would be terribly expensive or difficult to spill over onto another DVD if necessary -- certainly less expensive than putting this uber-new technology in the system.

For my wallet's sake, I hope the next gen machines retain normal, standard DVD drives (or something similar, but engineered slightly different for piracy reasons).

 

[TAJ]

>>>If I have to deal with a second DVD every now and then to save a significant chunk off the price of a console, then I can live with it. If you want a high-end DVD player, buy a high-end DVD player, let's not let such functionality drive up the cost of what are, at heart, gaming machines...<<<

We're already heading towards games which overflow a DVD-9 THIS generation. Imagine how much worse it will get with scenes that are an order of magnitude more complex. (next generation)

 

[3rdman]

While this newfound massive storage capability is great for movies, does the average game really need that much disc space? If I have to deal with a second DVD every now and then to save a significant chunk off the price of a console, then I can live with it. If you want a high-end DVD player, buy a high-end DVD player, let's not let such functionality drive up the cost of what are, at heart, gaming machines...

I think you're missing a point...it wouldn't cost exrtra at all. The T2 disk plays on all current PC dvd's assuming you're computer has got the horsepower to run it. With whats rumored to be running in the next generation of consoles, playback of HD-DVD content should be easy to implement. Games could and probably will remain on DVD-9 disks.

 

[human5892]

We're already heading towards games which overflow a DVD-9 THIS generation. Imagine how much worse it will get with scenes that are an order of magnitude more complex. (next generation)

I don't know...I still think dual-layered DVDs, multiple DVDs, etc., could hold us off for one generation until the new formats become cheaper (and maybe even one of them becomes the true standard). I just can't fathom a game that requires all that space, especially with compression technology becoming better and better.

 

[kaching]

*IF* next gen systems support a high capacity, blue laser disc format, they would most certainly also be backward compatible with standard DVD and CD media.

If you are solely worried about the cost of drive parts, realize that you'd be committing us all to using standard DVD/CD in consoles until at least 2010-11. And considering the current interest in extending console lifetimes, I wouldn't be surprised if next gen is longer than that. I think you are underestimating the potential for multi-disc games next gen if we stick to DVD, and that won't play out well for online games if the consoles aren't supporting large HDDs. It won't take *that* long for blue-laser drives to become very cheap and in the meantime, I doubt it would be that expensive to include. They still have another year or so to cut the cost of manufacturing

 

[TAJ]

>>>I don't know...I still think dual-layered DVDs, multiple DVDs, etc., could hold us off for one generation until the new formats become cheaper (and maybe even one of them becomes the true standard). I just can't fathom a game that requires all that space, especially with compression technology becoming better and better.<<<

Here's why I think that can't happen. Last generation, CDs were the biggest media available.
The biggest games today would require 13 CDs. Having to put a game on 13 DVDs next generation would just be ridiculous.
To put it another way, next-gen consoles will have several times more RAM, and that RAM will need to be filled every scene. If they used DVDs, you'll have an N64-esque situation, where you have a lot of the same assets showing up over and over, usually at lower detail than the hardware is capable of pushing.

 

[human5892]

>>>I don't know...I still think dual-layered DVDs, multiple DVDs, etc., could hold us off for one generation until the new formats become cheaper (and maybe even one of them becomes the true standard). I just can't fathom a game that requires all that space, especially with compression technology becoming better and better.<<<

Here's why I think that can't happen. Last generation, CDs were the biggest media available.
The biggest games today would require 13 CDs. Having to put a game on 13 DVDs next generation would just be ridiculous.
To put it another way, next-gen consoles will have several times more RAM, and that RAM will need to be filled every scene. If they used DVDs, you'll have an N64-esque situation, where you have a lot of the same assets showing up over and over, usually at lower detail than the hardware is capable of pushing.

I suppose that's true enough. I guess it's kind of like that infamous Bill Gates comment...something like, "32k (bytes) should be good enough for anyone." Just because I can't fathom it now doesn't mean it won't be required in the future.

 

[deadhorse32]

I'm not really sure about VC9 approval.

Let's take a look at the Dvd Forum website :

Motion to retain the provisional approval of the CODECs until the level of information concerning the licensing terms for VC-9 is the same as the level of information concerning the licensing terms for AVC/H.264.

not approved

http://www.dvdforum.org/26scmtg-resolution.htm

The news has been released for 5 days and no PR from MS or the DVD forum. Strange.

 

[jarrod]

What kind of fucked reporting is this ?

Someone is paying some mad cash to make it seems that only Sony is behind this: last I checked all those companies just listed are Blu-Ray Founding-Group members.

I dunno, companies like Samsung or Matsushitsa's support of Blue-Ray has been mostly lipservice so far. All they've done is add their names to a list, meanwhile Sony's been driving the project so far, that's pretty clear... can you you provide any references to anyone outside Sony/Dell doing aything specific on furthering the BRD format? Or any quotes from Matsushitsa, Thompson and company that would indicate their clear preference and support of BRD over HD-DVD? Really, it just looks like most companies are supporting both, waiting to see who comes out on top...

 

[The Bookerman]

Hmmm HD-DVD was created by both NEC and Toshiba?

Hmmm...N-Revolution's media = HD-DVD ?

 

[kaching]

I'm not really sure about VC9 approval.

According to this cnet article, http://news.com.com/Next-generation+DVD+moves+ahead/2100-1040_3-5233211.html?tag=nefd.pop , they did approve it:

Not all members of the DVD Forum steering committee were ready to give a final seal of approval to the codecs last week. There was a motion to retain the provisional approval of the codecs "until the level of information concerning the licensing terms for VC-9 is the same as the level of information concerning the licensing terms for AVC/H.264," according to the Forum's Web site. But the motion failed.

can you you provide any references to anyone outside Sony/Dell doing aything specific on furthering the BRD format?

LG Electronics announced a BRD device for release in the 3rd Quarter 2004 for the US, back in January:

http://news.com.com/2100-7353-5137081.html

 

[jarrod]

LG Electronics announced a BRD device for release in the 3rd Quarter 2004 for the US, back in January:

http://news.com.com/2100-7353-5137081.html

Well that's something, but it doesn't really indicate support of one format over the other. Again, I'm not so sure that the author's stance of most companies taking an agnostic approach is really that off base. I'd also say though that doesn't mean Sony's going it alone either, as Pana seems to have interpreted.

 

[kaching]

I don't disagree, just providing info to answer the question I specifically quoted. I know that several of the companies listed as agnostic have also produced reference/demo BRD hardware but I have no knowledge of anyone outside NEC or Toshiba doing the same for AOD/HD-DVD.

 

[GIR]

The studios are going to freak, because this is the LAST FORMAT you will ever need to buy.

No, there's always Ultra HDTV to look forward to, 7680x4320 60fps picture and 22.2ch surround sound, see these articles:

Slashdot - Ultra High Definition Video
Gamers Multiverse Forums - Ultra HDTV
After HDTV, the Ultra HDTV (7680x4320 pixels)

Basically, at high-bitrate 1080i, I honestly don't think there's any room for improvement.

Of course there's room for improvement, it's called 1080p