• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Hidden PS1 4K emulator discovered on PS4

Tulipanzo

Member


After a recent PS4 exploit, hackers found a full-fledged PS1 emulator hidden inside Medievil (2019). This was used to run the PS1 original game, available as an unlock in the remake. It also seems different from PCSX, the open-source emulator used on the PS Classic.

This means Sony has working x86 emulators for PS1, PS2, and PSP. While there's still weirdness in how they're distributed, it seems Sony may have been working on emulators behind the scenes.

Here's a few tests ran by Nagato's Revenge on YT
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
This means Sony has working x86 emulators for PS1, PS2, and PSP
They just probably dowloaded some open source emulator, because why bother.
 

M1chl

Currently Gif and Meme Champion
They probably ported emulator from PS3 (also from PSP, PSV and xperia play)
That would probabl be way higher, than take code from x86, as far as I know that PS1 classic, contained open source emulator as well...

Also absolutely nothing wrong with that, only thing wrong with that is to lock users out of that.
 
Last edited:

Mmnow

Member
I don't think this is a surprise, to be honest. For all the "waste of money" folk who pop out of the woodwork whenever PS BC is mentioned, the writing has been on the wall for a while.

The real question is why it hasn't become a thing, when it'd be such an appreciated feature. The cynic in me wants to say they're looking into how to monetize it, but I suspect that's a vast oversimplification.

Concerns about piracy? Inability to play CDs, and no simple solution around it? That'd be difficult to explain to some, although not at all a fault of Sony's.

Maybe it's as simple as just not having a framework in place to deal with the licensing hell that would come along with it? Spyro and Crash would be as easy as paying a fee, but what do you do in the second week?

There has to be some reason this hasn't happened yet, and I don't buy the "Sony just isn't interested" nonsense. Would love an insider to give us some deets.
 

Kuranghi

Member
I don't think this is a surprise, to be honest. For all the "waste of money" folk who pop out of the woodwork whenever PS BC is mentioned, the writing has been on the wall for a while.

The real question is why it hasn't become a thing, when it'd be such an appreciated feature. The cynic in me wants to say they're looking into how to monetize it, but I suspect that's a vast oversimplification.

Concerns about piracy? Inability to play CDs, and no simple solution around it? That'd be difficult to explain to some, although not at all a fault of Sony's.

Maybe it's as simple as just not having a framework in place to deal with the licensing hell that would come along with it? Spyro and Crash would be as easy as paying a fee, but what do you do in the second week?

There has to be some reason this hasn't happened yet, and I don't buy the "Sony just isn't interested" nonsense. Would love an insider to give us some deets.

I've asked about this before (not here) but never really got a answer, is it a massive licencing nightmare? Can't they just pay a cut of the profits to the publishers or is the problem that some of them don't exist anymore? I think its pretty complicated tbh, would like to hear others thoughts on it if they know more.
 
There has to be some reason this hasn't happened yet, and I don't buy the "Sony just isn't interested" nonsense

Simple: emulators are actually really, really hard to get right. The most popular SNES and Megadrive emulators (as well as plenty of other systems) are filled with hacks to fix issues that occur simply on one game. They're not nearly as generic as many would believe.

It's likely that the emulator in this case was tested and tweaked to play Medievil and nothing else. So, some other games will load up and run on it, but the results will vary.
 

Mmnow

Member
I've asked about this before (not here) but never really got a answer, is it a massive licencing nightmare? Can't they just pay a cut of the profits to the publishers or is the problem that some of them don't exist anymore? I think its pretty complicated tbh, would like to hear others thoughts on it if they know more.

In some cases, you're right. It's as simple as paying a cut of the profits and hoping the publisher agrees to let you re-release it without taking too big a cut.

Your Spyro and Crash Bandicoots are almost certainly completely locked down by Activision, not least because they've had very recent remakes and were already released.

But take something a little more confusing. Let's pick the first Discworld game as a fun thought experiment.

Note: I don't know who currently holds the rights to this game. I'd love to know if anybody has any idea.

Discworld, based on the work author Terry Pratchett, was made by Psygnosis, which became Sony Studio Liverpool. It had Eric Idle in it, along with Rob Brydon, Tony Richardson, Nigel Planer and a host of other big British comedy names.

To re-release that on PS4, even without any changes, you would need to find out whether the rights reverted to Terry Pratchett*, or are they owned by Sony? The developers don't exist anymore - was there some kind of clause in the contract about that? Who knows? Do the contracts even still exist?

Is the code owned by the person who wrote it, by the rights holder? What about the music? What about the art?

Let's say the artist is just excited to know their work is being shown again and signs off on it, but the guy who wrote all the music wants a big payday. That could potentially outweigh any potential income.

But let's presume a best-case scenario. Everybody who can sign off on it, does sign off on it. Sony has permission to release the game digitally.

But back in the days of PS1, there was zero futureproofing. There was no clause saying that Eric Idle's voice work was owned by the rights holder indefinitely. You would get away with letting people play their PS1 discs on PS4, but reselling it? Eric Idle would, rightly so, expect to be paid again for his work.

Rob Brydon did a ton of work on that game, and in the time since has become a household name. Hell, he'd be a selling point now more than some of the others. What did his contract say originally and will he need to be paid more again?

At this point, you're into serious change just to get this game on the store. And will people buy it? For Discworld? It's a great game and I'd love to play it again on console, but I'd say not. Anybody who would want to play it has it on PC, can emulate it or has long forgotten it.

So long as the contracts still exist, the rights holders play ball and you have unlimited funds, all of this can be solved. But on a case by case basis, you're almost always going to come out at a loss.

As someone who cares deeply about preservation of media, I think it's money worth spending and work worth doing. But at this point, a faithful remake, possibly using machine learning, would be about as difficult and would make a bigger splash.

*Terry Pratchett has since died, obviously. What is dealing with his estate like? In his case, I think it'd probably be fairly easy. It's run by his daughter and his trusted assistant, but what if they DO own the rights and disagree about the quality of the games? It's another potential hurdle that you wouldn't find out about until you were already neck-deep in the project.
 

Mmnow

Member
Simple: emulators are actually really, really hard to get right. The most popular SNES and Megadrive emulators (as well as plenty of other systems) are filled with hacks to fix issues that occur simply on one game. They're not nearly as generic as many would believe.

It's likely that the emulator in this case was tested and tweaked to play Medievil and nothing else. So, some other games will load up and run on it, but the results will vary.

Right, but that makes the situation even more bizarre. They have created an emulator, or at least put time and effort into it if not created from scratch, for one game? For a bonus in one game?

I understand why they wouldn't want to just do a general release, although I think thorough community testing and some clever safeguarding would get around most of the issues. But that they wouldn't even release specific games?

It being hard just doesn't make sense to me. Final Fantasy VII was one of the top-selling games on the PSN when it was re-released on PS3. It's a bad example because it has a remaster, but why wouldn't Sony want that sort of success again, even if it was on a case by case basis?
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Right, but that makes the situation even more bizarre. They have created an emulator, or at least put time and effort into it if not created from scratch, for one game? For a bonus in one game?

Sony had already written a PSX emulator for the PSP back in 2004.
 

splattered

Member
I've asked about this before (not here) but never really got a answer, is it a massive licencing nightmare? Can't they just pay a cut of the profits to the publishers or is the problem that some of them don't exist anymore? I think its pretty complicated tbh, would like to hear others thoughts on it if they know more.

People in charge like Jim Ryan don't believe in "old games"

Sorry but Sony needs a bit more suit shakeup IMO... they really do need their own Phil Spencer. Not to "turn the brand around" obviously but someone that is more likely to pursue consumer friendly options at a much faster rate. BC similar to the XB offering would be ENORMOUS for the PlayStation brand.
 

Agent X

Gold Member
I don't think this is a surprise, to be honest. For all the "waste of money" folk who pop out of the woodwork whenever PS BC is mentioned, the writing has been on the wall for a while.

The real question is why it hasn't become a thing, when it'd be such an appreciated feature. The cynic in me wants to say they're looking into how to monetize it, but I suspect that's a vast oversimplification.

Concerns about piracy? Inability to play CDs, and no simple solution around it? That'd be difficult to explain to some, although not at all a fault of Sony's.

Maybe it's as simple as just not having a framework in place to deal with the licensing hell that would come along with it? Spyro and Crash would be as easy as paying a fee, but what do you do in the second week?

There has to be some reason this hasn't happened yet, and I don't buy the "Sony just isn't interested" nonsense. Would love an insider to give us some deets.

I've had the same questions for years.

For what it's worth, the PS4 system does contain a CD laser, according to the specifications in the manual. It has the necessary hardware. It just lacks the programming (in software or firmware) to enable the discs to be interpreted.

Concerns about piracy? Perhaps, but those who have pirate copies of games almost assuredly have some other method of playing them. I don't think enabling disc playback on PS4 would usher in some massive new era of piracy that wouldn't have happened otherwise. (Probably should buttoned up the PlayStation Classic a little more tightly, if that was such a concern.)

Monetize it? Possibly. Look at how they handled "PS2 Classics on PS4". I've said a lot on that matter previously--here's one thread about it if you want to know what I think.

The thing with PS1 games is that they're not forcing you to repurchase them on PS4, for the simple reason that they don't even offer them at all.

I mean, all they'd have to do is cook up a quality PS1 game emulator (the one in MediEvil looks like a "good start"), and then link it to the PS1 classics that already exist for PS3, PSP, and PS Vita. Let previous purchasers carry those games over to PS4 with cross-buy. It's such a mind-bogglingly simple solution.

It would make consumers happy, because they could carry over their existing purchases, and might give them confidence to make some new purchases.

It would make developers and publisher happy, because they wouldn't have to put in any additional work. They could keep selling the games to new customer for years and even decades.

I've long said that journalists who write articles on digital sales of older games and backward compatibility should ask this question, not just to Sony, but also to third-party developers and publishers.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Seriously if PS5 hasn't got a improved, more polished version available to users I'm...I don't know what to say
 

Kokoloko85

Member
Never understood why Sony didnt transfer those PS1 and PS2 games from PS3, Vita and PSP stores.
Its like free money And guaranteed sales to 110+ million PS4 owners.

Could do with playing my copy of PS2 games Digital Devil Saga I and II I had downloaded on PS3.
 

kruis

Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
But that emulator wouldn't just work on the PS4. It would need updating at the very least.

But it's not like Sony is writing an PSX emulator from scratch. Most of the legwork has already been done.
 

cash_longfellow

Gold Member
Maybe...just maybe...they used this as a way to disguise an alpha/beta for an emulator that will be on the ps5. Best way to stop leaks is to be as sneaky as possible about things. I personally do not care about BC with ps1, 2, and 3 because I own all three systems, but it is an interesting thought none the less.
 
The most popular SNES and Megadrive emulators (as well as plenty of other systems) are filled with hacks to fix issues that occur simply on one game.
What year is it? I can't speak for MD, but I know for a fact that a cycle accurate SNES emulator has existed for years...and it's not like you need a particularly powerful PC by 2020 standards to make use of it either.
 

Mmnow

Member
I've had the same questions for years.

For what it's worth, the PS4 system does contain a CD laser, according to the specifications in the manual. It has the necessary hardware. It just lacks the programming (in software or firmware) to enable the discs to be interpreted.

Concerns about piracy? Perhaps, but those who have pirate copies of games almost assuredly have some other method of playing them. I don't think enabling disc playback on PS4 would usher in some massive new era of piracy that wouldn't have happened otherwise. (Probably should buttoned up the PlayStation Classic a little more tightly, if that was such a concern.)

Monetize it? Possibly. Look at how they handled "PS2 Classics on PS4". I've said a lot on that matter previously--here's one thread about it if you want to know what I think.

The thing with PS1 games is that they're not forcing you to repurchase them on PS4, for the simple reason that they don't even offer them at all.

I mean, all they'd have to do is cook up a quality PS1 game emulator (the one in MediEvil looks like a "good start"), and then link it to the PS1 classics that already exist for PS3, PSP, and PS Vita. Let previous purchasers carry those games over to PS4 with cross-buy. It's such a mind-bogglingly simple solution.

It would make consumers happy, because they could carry over their existing purchases, and might give them confidence to make some new purchases.

It would make developers and publisher happy, because they wouldn't have to put in any additional work. They could keep selling the games to new customer for years and even decades.

I've long said that journalists who write articles on digital sales of older games and backward compatibility should ask this question, not just to Sony, but also to third-party developers and publishers.

I had no idea about the CD laser. That's really interesting. Is it something homebrewers could potentially access, or is it way too deep in the system to make happen? I'll be honest, my knowledge of that scene for PS4 is basically non-existent.

I'm fascinated by the conversations about trophies in that older thread because I've always thought they were relatively easy to add. I don't remember the exact sequence of events that made me think that, but it started with this patent and then a rush of titles which I guessed use it. It seems the general consensus there was that adding them in was more difficult than I thought. So, other than patents are patents and don't indicate actual use, I wonder what happened here, especially since it hinted at potential use for PS1 as well. Was there a classics programme that never appeared?

A quick search for around the PS4 launch comes up with a host of rumours, including a particularly definite one from Eurogamer. It's an anonymous source, but Google shows it wasn't the only source at this point.

Genuinely, I'm more baffled now than ever. All your points are excellent, and I agree completely. So if we presume the service would have been at least as successful as PS3, presume they were working on a solution around 2014 and that they even had games running... then what changed it?

Maybe they couldn't get the tech right internally. Maybe it's just as simple as new faces with different priorities. Either way, there's definitely an interesting story in here somewhere.
 
Last edited:

Mmnow

Member
But it's not like Sony is writing an PSX emulator from scratch. Most of the legwork has already been done.

Potentially? Almost definitely? I can't say I'm an expert on their PSP/PS3 emulator, and we don't know what goals they had for their PS4 emulator. How easy would it have been to port across? What state was the code in?

I guess now that this emulator is out there, someone with more knowledge than me will eventually let us know what the deal is.
 

Agent X

Gold Member
I had no idea about the CD laser. That's really interesting. Is it something homebrewers could potentially access, or is it way too deep in the system to make happen? I'll be honest, my knowledge of that scene for PS4 is basically non-existent.

I don't have any real technical knowledge here, either. If they could coax this emulator into booting disc-based games, then it would be quite a breakthrough.

I'm fascinated by the conversations about trophies in that older thread because I've always thought they were relatively easy to add. I don't remember the exact sequence of events that made me think that, but it started with this patent and then a rush of titles which I guessed use it. It seems the general consensus there was that adding them in was more difficult than I thought.

Ha, that article (from 2013) cited NeoGAF! :messenger_grinning:

Here's an article from 2015 that discusses adding trophies to PS2 games, which often takes 2 to 3 months:


That thread (that I linked to earlier) had a lot of discussion of this feature. Personally, I felt that Sony should have just made this optional for developers. Making it a requirement (when it was such a burden of time and resources) seemed to deter developers, and was surely a reason why the "PS2 classics for PS4" initiative fizzled out relatively quickly.

So, other than patents are patents and don't indicate actual use, I wonder what happened here, especially since it hinted at potential use for PS1 as well. Was there a classics programme that never appeared?

A quick search for around the PS4 launch comes up with a host of rumours, including a particularly definite one from Eurogamer. It's an anonymous source, but Google shows it wasn't the only source at this point.

Now that is interesting. If that article is to be believed, Sony apparently planned for PS1 games on PS4 early on. This brings up the question: Why didn't they ever go ahead and do it? I guess that brings us full circle to what we're discussing in this thread now.
 

yurinka

Member
As I remember while ago they had a patent to use new assets like art, music or even to change code to an emulated game to highly change update it. Maybe they did that with Medievil, who knows. I thought they did it with the LocoRoco, Parappa and Patapon remasters, in that case from the PSP versions.
 
Last edited:
What year is it? I can't speak for MD, but I know for a fact that a cycle accurate SNES emulator has existed for years...and it's not like you need a particularly powerful PC by 2020 standards to make use of it either.

Seriously, had to do a double take there and make sure I didn't read it wrong lol.
 

Mmnow

Member
Now that is interesting. If that article is to be believed, Sony apparently planned for PS1 games on PS4 early on. This brings up the question: Why didn't they ever go ahead and do it? I guess that brings us full circle to what we're discussing in this thread now.

I have way more questions than answers now, and I'm not sure they'll ever be more than that.

If nothing else, in trying to do some research I came across this incredible tweet which I think just sums up this entire PlayStation backwards compatibility issue.

Will PS4 ever be compatible with PS3 games?

*wry grin*

 
Last edited:
Top Bottom