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Hollywood Hit With Writers Strike After Talks With AMPTP Fail; Guild Slams Studios For “Gig Economy” Mentality
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
This thing is getting serious. Lots of big movies sliding back, series getting put on hold, perhaps indefinitely.
Very curious who is holding up a resolution and how long the writers can hold out not getting paid in this economy. The last big one went from Nov 07 to Feb 08 so quite a bit longer. I feel like streamers are much more susceptible to show gap than the networks in 08-09, because what was really the alternative then? But if folks unsubscribe to a streamer due to lack of content, that must REALLY hurt. Better hope sports and such can fill the gap, I suppose.
Very curious who is holding up a resolution and how long the writers can hold out not getting paid in this economy. The last big one went from Nov 07 to Feb 08 so quite a bit longer. I feel like streamers are much more susceptible to show gap than the networks in 08-09, because what was really the alternative then? But if folks unsubscribe to a streamer due to lack of content, that must REALLY hurt. Better hope sports and such can fill the gap, I suppose.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
As someone whose media watching is skewed heavy to live sports and reruns from old shows, I find the situation as both a non-issue and hilarious.
When you watch sports, there's still writers or statisticians doing info grunt work to feed commentators questions and numbers, but as a whole the telecast is live and just plays themselves out with the match. So whatever impact this situation might have affecting sports is going to limited. In fact zero commentators is actually awesome. 15-20 years ago CBC had a strike, but they still showed hockey. The camera guys seemed to still be working. Or maybe non-union managers took over. I dont know. But the live feeds with solely natural crowd noise and players were fantastic.
Just stick to live sports folks. It's real, arent cliche plotlines and characters, and you never know what will happen.
When you watch sports, there's still writers or statisticians doing info grunt work to feed commentators questions and numbers, but as a whole the telecast is live and just plays themselves out with the match. So whatever impact this situation might have affecting sports is going to limited. In fact zero commentators is actually awesome. 15-20 years ago CBC had a strike, but they still showed hockey. The camera guys seemed to still be working. Or maybe non-union managers took over. I dont know. But the live feeds with solely natural crowd noise and players were fantastic.
Just stick to live sports folks. It's real, arent cliche plotlines and characters, and you never know what will happen.
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yet_another_alt
Member
Is Hollywood desperate enough that they're willing to adapt books without rewriting their content yet? God, I wish this happened to the Brits before they managed to shit out The Watch.
Dusktildawn48
Member
This. 10 years ago I would've been bummed, nowadays I couldn't care less.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
From what I read, Netflix is holding up the negotiations. Not wanting to pay the writers. Meanwhile, most of their original content DEPENDS on those writers.
And y'all wanting the industry to burn, say good bye to Scorsese, Spielberg, Nolan, etc. They don't do all their writing on their own, if they even write any of their scripts.
And y'all wanting the industry to burn, say good bye to Scorsese, Spielberg, Nolan, etc. They don't do all their writing on their own, if they even write any of their scripts.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Of course it's Netflix.
Don't worry. After a few episodes of negotiations they will just cancel them.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That's sub services for you that operate on debt or very, very thin margins. Wait until this comes to gaming.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
This video from Vox provides a pretty good rundown:
Heh heh, reading between the lines it seems like a big part of the problem is that show DURATION has reduced (22 eps to 8-10) but show NUMBERS have radically increased (200 to 500) so writers SHOULDN'T have a problem, they work on a specific show less, but work on more shows now that the seasonality of TV is less fixed and stuff is always being produced year round. But what did these idiots also do? Invite in a TON of "fresh new voices" that created a HUGE supply glut that the shifting demand can't keep up with. Rather than keep the entry tight so the existing writers kept on working, just on more, albeit shorter, shows, they now gotta swim with basically amateurs willing to take dogshit wages but that are hired for the optics rather than a legacy of work and experience.
Oops.
These writers got big paychecks from MASSIVE shows, seen by MILLIONS and MILLIONs of people. I doubt hardly any shows get those kinds of viewers these days. 95% of these streamer shows are probably clocking in at a few hundred thousand complete views, why should that generate a long revenue tail for the writers?
If they are not careful (more careful that they have been) we are just gonna see Korean, european, and probably chinese stuff flood the streamers with shows that have AI generated dubbing and then Hollywood is FUCKED.
Reallink
Member
TLDR, their grievance is LA cost of living and a fear that "diverse" young voices can't afford to move there to write more woke trash without making $330,000 every half year, plus a $10,000/year residual check in perpetuity from reruns. They're demanding that not for Seinfeld or Game Of Thrones, but the terrible Hulu original no one has watched or heard of. Also they only want to work a fraction of a year again, cause there is literally 10x more work available to them now, but they believe they shouldn't have to work a whole year for their $330,000 salary cause bossman makes more money than them.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
And unfortunately for "professional writers", a lot of people dont give a shit about their work. With the net and social media a lot of people spend their time chatting with friends or checking out streamers or random tik tok or YT videos, which are mostly made by nobodies. I'm sure there's videos out there about a grandma making chocolate chip cookies which has been viewed more than a lot of the trash on cable tv or gig jobbing so-called journalists (or as some people more accurately label [bloggers]).
If highly paid writers working at billion dollar companies cant beat Joe Bob and Sally Sue streaming content after dinner when they get home from their day job, writers should be absolutely ashamed. It goes to show that the work done is easily replaceable. And lets face it, it's not like most content out there by professional writers is even that great. No wonder YT and Twitch streamers whose closest thing to writing are high school english essays can be more popular icons.
On the other hand, a lot of occupations out there need real training or academics before getting hired. I can put up a YT channel and website if I really wanted to, write shit and hope it gets popular. You never know maybe it would. But in no way would I ever be qualified to construct a building whether it's general labourer help, construction crew, or the engineers or architects designing it.
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Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
No need, they will skip that part and go right to AI.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Then how would we get slacktivist writing in all our Disney movies?
No, we need the lazy, shitty writers of modern Hollywood!
DKehoe
Member
diffusionx
Gold Member
lol these people are basically asking for a 3-5x increase in pay AND perpetual residuals. They're nuts. It's not happening. The industry is not going to fund 500 writing rooms and pay them like peak Seinfeld and Law & Order into perpetuity. It's just not happening, and it's not a matter of fairness or whatever, it's just basic reality.
Like the one woman brought up some broke-ass writer renting a bowtie, I never heard of the show he wrote on. Meanwhile in 1998 find me 10 people who never heard of Friends or Seinfeld. Also, needless to say, the vast majority of shows are not rerun like those. Nobody is watching Orange is the New Black anymore lmao. It's not my fault and it's not their fault, it's just a way the culture has changed.
And you know, maybe the industry does need to scale back, there probably are too many shows, too much money chasing after garbage, the shows are just utter trash, almost all of them. But that does mean in the end a lot of these people will have to pack up their bindle and get out of Los Angeles, because there won't be work for them.
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I believe the other unioned workers; the directors, actors, production teams, etc would then refuse to work with non-union labor. If they all hold the line they can prevent maneuvers like that.
This is my beef with a lot of current shows that ALL chase the hypothetical "mass audience" four quadrant appeal. It makes EVERY show kinda mediocre. Give me a couple nerdy, highly focused, gory T&A shows and that will cover me between shows aimed at others. But when every show only has a 20-40% appeal to me, even those that SHOULD be right up my alley like The Witcher, then there is just nothing that makes me loyal.
Give me more SPARTACUS and BLACK SAILS, less Citadel, FUBAR, and Wheel of Time.
Ragnarok
Member
Scorsese and Spielberg are ancient and stopped pushing the medium forward more than two decades ago.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Yup.
That's called entitlement. It happens in every day life, not just jobs and unions.
A lot of people think that just because they do something that everyone else in the world has to like it and pay them good money for it. Well, most jobs in the world arent even unionized and tons of people get through life with good paying jobs that have probably never been unionized ever in history (most sales, marketing, finance, HR, tech, legal depts). If they can get offered good wages right off the bat, it shows companies will pay good money to hire and retain people.
If some people get offered bad wages and unstable job security, well it means you're kind of shit and replaceable. Simple as that. And anything to do with media is a very hit and miss kind of output. Some shows and movies do great. Some are garbage. Just about every person in Hollywood seems to be part of good and bad productions, so that proves to management it's not a stable kind of industry. Only the proven stars get $20 million offers, while lighting crew dude, b-list actor or writer gal get paid low wages with no job security. If the back end employees were so great, they'd be getting millions each and the all-star actors and actresses would be the ones getting $30,000.
In no other job industry does someone get perpetual royalties for work. You do your work, get paid and thats it. And if you leave the company, you definitely get nothing more. I dont see sales reps get royalties till the age of 80 for that account they signed up 40 years ago even though he was the one doing the grunt work in 1983. I dont see any marketing managers who introduce new products get paid a forever cut of sales because they were the cornerstone person launching the product.
But in media, you got this "I want big money and royalties for life so I can coast"
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Serious question: have you always worked office jobs?
I ask that because most of what you listed as examples of jobs are all office jobs. No janitorial, no restaurant, no brick layer, construction, carpenter, plumber, warehouse worker, package delivery, etc. You get paid the wages you get... Sometimes you get a performance review and a pay bump which could be as little as 25 cents per quarter or a dollar or 2 a year. That's IF they pay above state or federal minimum wage.
People in office jobs get paid a lot more than people working blue collar jobs... Not saying that's not fair but a livable wage is the goal.
Back when the minimum wage was instated, it was to provide men with families of 4 a wage to live off of. You can look it up if you don't believe me. It was NEVER something "for kids". Many adults are forced to work jobs for minimum wage (or slightly above it) in 2023 because the wage hasn't kept up with inflation since the late '70s.
Maybe your office jobs have been great but for MANY people, they aren't. Which is why they unionize. Not everyone can just quit and find a new job. Not everyone can just up and move to a new city or state in search of a better paying job. While some can go back to college, thanks some perks some jobs offer, they're still working the same job that pays them the same wage. Florida is raising theirs to $15/hr but because their minimum wage didn't keep up with inflation, it never caught up with the cost of living ... That metric has increased by A LOT in the last decade. You either have to have a really good job to afford an apt that's not in a bad neighborhood or you have to have a 2 or 3 income household.
Unions are important, whether you want to realize that or not.
But to buttress your point about "no other industry does this stuff..." That's exactly the point. Because of the way movies and TV shows are made, they CAN'T be like an office job at a brokerage firm or a warehouse job. That lump sum payment they get? A percentage goes to their agent, manager etc. That leaves them with less money to work with. Hollywood has NEVER worked how your job might. They HAD to unionize (just like how the directors and actors did) so they could get fair wages and such.
You KNOW that profit is the main motivator behind most corporations, the same is true of Hollywood... They will screw over every writer, director and actor if it meant they get to keep more of the money in their pockets... Some of the very industries like railroads have done exactly that! If they could have us all as slaves, they would. No doubt about it. Anyone NOT in an office would suffer.
Ok, I'm done.
I have ADHD so if the above paragraphs meander, that's why.
I'd argue that a writer gig is waaaaay more like an office job than a blue collar one. Any WHY do they need agents and managers? Maybe in the old days it was necessary because the booze and coke fueled hollywood execs couldn't be arsed to do anything but talk to the same 3 talent reps feeding them young starlets to abuse so writers had little choice but play the game, but TODAY that entire system of agents and "management" seems ridiculous and parasitical. It's kinda like real estate agents skimming that 3%+3% off every home sale. Sure, pre-internet they had a place, but now I can go to Zillow and find out all I need as a buyer and sellers can watch a youtube vid about how to showcase a house so it all seems far less critical. Of course I'm bitter because my last house sold in about 10.5 seconds so it REALLY hurt writing that 5 figure check to some ladies doing the gig part time and that put in all of 6 hours of effort max. Sure, they may go 5 months before they close another house but is it really MY problem to cover them for that time because they chose a "feast/famine" career?
Anyway, as this thing stretches on and on, I'm curious what the multitude of streamers will do in 6-12 months when there is nothing new. Foreign stuff obviously, but can they just dust off a copy of a Shakespeare play and use that as a shooting script (didn't Whedon do this at his house during the last strike)? Are there drawers and drawers full of completed scripts they can access and somehow sidestep any need for a re-write as "on set improvisation"? Clearly lots of TV shows are written only when the show is green-lit, but films and maybe anthology shows could probably keep rolling, and of course producer "written" reality shows will gain yet another rung up on american TV.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
A writer can't make a pitch unless they can get face time with an exec or producer and that's USUALLY thanks to an agent or manager. Joe Blow writer can't just walk in off the street and get a meeting about their script and expect a contract drawn up right there and then.
Either they're one of a few called in, thanks to reputation, to write a script treatment for a possible movie based on an outline or they're pitching the story to a producer with an outline of when they can deliver on a full script and if they'll be available for rewrites and such (or it's a pitch for a show they want to be the show runner for).
Those opportunities are secured by agents and such.
Also, there's indeed scripts that have been sent to producers and execs but no guarantee if any will be made ... Or if any of them are any good. Assistants look them over and they're either trashed or put in a vault because "maybe they have potential but not at this time".
On set improvisation is not allowed during the WGA strike... That's basically writing the script on the fly. That's why Ryan Reynolds isn't allowed to do it while currently filming Deadpool 3.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Honestly, AI would seemingly do a better job than the nu writers. Then again, AI is already compromised with some of the same things since it's a human inputted creation.
I'd be more concerned about this if modern TV and movie writing wasn't such predictable dogshit.
Even stuff thats acclaimed like Spider-Verse has pretty faulty writing, I honestly think Marvel movies have just lowered people's standards. That being said, thank God Better Call Saul ended before this happened lol.
Even stuff thats acclaimed like Spider-Verse has pretty faulty writing, I honestly think Marvel movies have just lowered people's standards. That being said, thank God Better Call Saul ended before this happened lol.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Yea, its sad when the AI both write *better* and also have the same idiotic predisposition to slacktivism.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
My career jobs are all office finance roles. But growing up during school I’ve done: busboy, waiter, general labourer, assembly line guy, packager in a wholesaler, college marketing guy (the guy who stands at a booth giving out free samples), RRSP application data processor. Probably some more I missed. These jobs paid anywhere from minimum wage to $10/hr in the 90s. In Canada the min wage back then in Ontario was like $6-7. The best paying job was actually being a waiter where if you include tips I was making probably $25/hr in 1994.
So I’ve done my share of low end jobs both in service and blue collar factories. I wore the blue overalls, drove a forklift and even had a giant heavy trash bin land on the top of my foot where the steel toe shoe didn’t cover.
All low paying jobs. All easy as hell jobs to do. I’ll be honest. An idiot can do these jobs. For those of you who have never drove a forklift. Every summer student could fully drive one perfectly carrying stuff with no spills. I was unloading machinery off of flatbeds that were like $100,000 in value. The only key tip to remember is if your lifting a heavy load do it slowly and tilt the forks inward a bit so if it crashes it won’t splash outward. The skid of shit will be safe pinning towards you. That’s it. Oh, and if you’re driving an electric forklift, don’t forget to charge it before you shut down for the night.
Also, I might had left out other types of jobs since my experience is office work. But medical jobs pay a lot too.
As I said before, people get what they are worth. Simple as that. If companies were that cheap, every person would be offered minimum wage where the applicant would have to fight tooth and nail for a decent wage. Not true at all. My first job out of school was around $40,000 as a low ranked analyst. Your typical new grad job back then. That’s the same as $20/hr and we got 3% pay raises every 6 months. And at that company even salary people got OT pay if you worked past 40 hours. It was a good starting gig. If I can get it anyone can. When I started there were like 20 other similar job people too. So I’m like person #21. And if people can’t because they suck at numbers and don’t have a university degree then too bad. Do the grind I did. $40,000 is going to be lower than a STEM grad but higher than someone with no academics or who works in a shittier industry. But at that time that’s the going rate.
Now if they wanted to why not just offer every business grad $8/hr? That’s probably what minimum wage was at the time. But they don’t because for this kind of role it involves a certain amount of skills and companies will pay a decent starter wage to get people. And if they don’t another company will. It’s really as simple as that.
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Well, personally, if they are striking then they cant really dictate what the producers do, IMHO. My dad got called up to do line work during strikes. As a supervisor he could do that work, thoigh the company wisely shifted him to an area he didn't know anyone to avoid a sup having to do the work of their own techs. But just because the techs were striking didnt mean no one could do their job. A little different than hiring scabs to fill in as well.
So if there is no "on set improv" during a strike that's just the producers playing nice. No doubt Ryan Reynolds and his cast could muddle through some scenes using the existing script no problem if they wanted to.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Rather hoping SAG AFTRA retain a set of balls and go on strike too. Hollywood needs a big upheaval to shake out the worst offenders, and rebalance the way the industry functions, so a nice big, fat actors strike on top of the writer's strike would put the cat among the pigeons.
Mind you, actors are a fickle, self centred bunch, so they'll probably strike a last minute deal.
Mind you, actors are a fickle, self centred bunch, so they'll probably strike a last minute deal.
Jimmythemook
Banned
I can understand that sentiment from the outside. Unfortunately the writer's strike has caused many many of my collegues and hundreds of vfx jobs industry wide to be lost, with no end in sight as to when work will pick up again. This thing is utterly devastating for my line of work and an actor's strike would be the final nail in the coffin, myself and everybody else still hanging on would be screwed as well.
Currently praying for a resolution to the SAG Aftra negotiations.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
You should be praying that the writers get a better deal too.
Jimmythemook
Banned
Absolutely I want that side resolved as well, but actors going on strike is the nulcear option, the whole industry will grind to a halt and everybody will be out of work
FunkMiller
Gold Member
I wouldn't worry too much. As I say, actors are ultimately a pretty self centred bunch. If they get a sniff of a decently improved deal, they'll take it, regardless of what's happening with the writers. And the companies will buckle with them easier than they have with the writers, as it's the on screen talent.
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Torrent of Pork
Banned
This turmoil is more entertaining than any of the dogshit these writers have churned out in a decade.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Main writers should be just as valuable as directors and main actors.
The other day I was reading Todd’s (The Joker) thoughts on it, he was slamming these writers and taking a bunch of credit for small changes to the script during shooting as if improving scenes and editing bits around after a final script warrants anywhere near the same credit or more. Like doing some work on the house after moving into it is on the same level as building the house from the ground up.
Writers continue to be short changed in this industry and I hope they squeeze everything they can during this strike.
The other day I was reading Todd’s (The Joker) thoughts on it, he was slamming these writers and taking a bunch of credit for small changes to the script during shooting as if improving scenes and editing bits around after a final script warrants anywhere near the same credit or more. Like doing some work on the house after moving into it is on the same level as building the house from the ground up.
Writers continue to be short changed in this industry and I hope they squeeze everything they can during this strike.
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DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
Some directors are also writers.... James Gunn, Matt Reeves, James Cameron, Martin Scorsese, etc.
Some writers are also directors or other. Even producers.
Some of them have written the very things that y'all have praised in the last decade.
So either they're ALL bad or it's a certain number that don't write the best stories and scripts.
Don't forget... Who HIRED them gives final approval on the drafts. Writers don't work in a bubble. A production is a collaborative effort.
Some writers are also directors or other. Even producers.
Some of them have written the very things that y'all have praised in the last decade.
So either they're ALL bad or it's a certain number that don't write the best stories and scripts.
Don't forget... Who HIRED them gives final approval on the drafts. Writers don't work in a bubble. A production is a collaborative effort.
Jimmythemook
Banned
Not looking good, seems like the actors are going on strike
deadline.com
SAG-AFTRA Agrees To Federal Mediation With Studios But Won’t Extend Strike Deadline
SAG-AFTRA has agreed to federal mediation in order the break the bargaining deadlock with the Hollywood studios but won't extend strike deadline.
deadline.com
Pejo
Member
I read this earlier. This part is especially brutal:Not looking good, seems like the actors are going on strike
SAG-AFTRA Agrees To Federal Mediation With Studios But Won’t Extend Strike Deadline
SAG-AFTRA has agreed to federal mediation in order the break the bargaining deadlock with the Hollywood studios but won't extend strike deadline.
I think modern day writers are creatively bankrupt but... damn. The execs are just aiming for the "biggest scums of the earth" award.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Jimmythemook
Banned
The wreckage this strike is gonna cause the industry is incalculable. So many lost jobs and VFX studio closures
BadBurger
Is 'That Pure Potato'
Reading the recent stories, the execs fully admit that their strategy is evil. And that their writers only have five or six months worth of savings, a financial predicament they created, while they earn tens of millions a year on those very writers' backs. Scum. Imagine being that immoral and greedy.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
Not looking good, seems like the actors are going on strike
SAG-AFTRA Agrees To Federal Mediation With Studios But Won’t Extend Strike Deadline
SAG-AFTRA has agreed to federal mediation in order the break the bargaining deadlock with the Hollywood studios but won't extend strike deadline.
I love how these companies are adamant that there be no government interference when they want to merge… but the second someone does something they don’t like, they go crying to the government for help.
The problem is that the studios are struggling as well. Theatrical box office is a dodgy prospect with film budgets in the hundreds of millions and a global return almost mandatory. The mainstay home vhs/dvd/BR market is in total freefall and streaming is taking big hits now as well. So the execs are trying to tighten the belt right as these writers want more of the pie. It's baaaaaaaad timing IMHO. Foreign production is ready to come in, reality TV is only growing, youtube amateur stuff is a MONSTER, the old studio system is on shaky grounds and this may kill it.
Get ready for Chin(a)ese studios to sweep in and take it ALL, see what those writers get paid then....
Get ready for Chin(a)ese studios to sweep in and take it ALL, see what those writers get paid then....
Tbh I think the problem with the film industry is becoming the same as the video game industry; its too bloated and corporate. Most movies now are made with the intention of big international box office numbers, which just kills the writing. Additionally you have a lot of creatively bankrupt college grads now just thrown out the door with a writing degree and taking any cheap writing job. It needs to thin out and downsize for the movie industry to be genuinely appreciated anymore.
Guess they should stop buying avocado toast, then.
Goes for the writers as well?
Hollywood as an automatic cash cow is a myth now that these studios are wrapped up in the fortunes of much larger companies that can't/won't tolerate anything less than astounding returns.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
It's the studios own faults. Giving producers exorbitant budgets instead of taking things on a case by case basis. Or just assuming brand recognition will result in automatic billions.
They can tighten their purse strings without hampering or hurrying the creative process (writing, effects). They can do it... But they're so busy chasing billions instead of just a healthy return on investment.
Some films really do warrant 200mil budgets but not most ... Not even most summer blockbusters.
Shareholders and execs are the problem ... Their greed.
EEAAO and Scream 5 and 6 generated profit from smaller budgets and became popular because the creative process was allowed to breathe. Something James Gunn understands and but Chapek didn't.
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