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I hate the term "Kusoge"

They really aren't. There are very clear rules on desining games, like consistency, variety, etc.
If you make a final boss easier than the first boss in a mainly mechanically and challenge driven game, thats objectively bad design.
If you make a level thats overly complicated and convoluted to get through, with obscure rules and puzzles, thats also bad design.


I could say something about pop music here, but thats another discussion entirely. Lets leave at being popular doesn't equal being good.
>If you make a final boss easier than the first boss in a mainly mechanically and challenge driven game, thats objectively bad design.

I think most people would agree on that. But that doesn't make it objective. Ultimately, who is the arbiter who decides whether a design is good or bad? Is there some sort of law of the universe that dictates the rules of "good" game design and "bad" game design. Did God include a rulebook of this in the bible somewhere?

Like I said, ideas of good game design can vary on the person. People just have different tastes to what makes a game well designed. It's not black and white. Some people think restoring health automatically at save points is good design, others don't. On the contrary, some people think complicated levels are bad design. Others don't. It's all subjective.
 
This term is not widespread in English-speaking gaming communities, and even if it was, it's not that offensive to me. It's like enjoying bad b-movies or those trashy novels moms read, or fast food. People know there's better stuff out there but they like it anyway. Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, and it's not like those games don't have their own dedicated fans.
 

ssringo

Member
Never heard the term before but isn't it a similar idea to enjoying B-movies or, more directly, bad B-movies? Like, Len Kabasinski makes bad movies but people still enjoy them in spite of, or even because of, the ways they're bad.
 

Robb

Gold Member
Never heard the term before and while “shit” might be excessive I don’t disagree with the sentiment that there are fun games out there that are bad.

The latest Pokémon titles are prime examples. Fun to play but are absolute shit in terms of bugs, framerate, pop-in, draw distance, texture work… well, pretty much any technical aspect you can think of. It’s a fun game, but a bad fun game.
 

Hudo

Member
Nah Kusoge just means shitty game. Or rather crappy game. Nothing fun or enjoyable about it.

Like say Action 52.
This. I have never heard "Kusoge" being used as a word to describe something that is fun but low-quality. I only have heard the term used to describe a game as being shit and not fun.
 

Skifi28

Member
Guess we're not weeb enough
V2OXKHk.gif

I hope that helps.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
>If you make a final boss easier than the first boss in a mainly mechanically and challenge driven game, thats objectively bad design.

I think most people would agree on that. But that doesn't make it objective. Ultimately, who is the arbiter who decides whether a design is good or bad? Is there some sort of law of the universe that dictates the rules of "good" game design and "bad" game design. Did God include a rulebook of this in the bible somewhere?

Like I said, ideas of good game design can vary on the person. People just have different tastes to what makes a game well designed. It's not black and white. Some people think restoring health automatically at save points is good design, others don't. On the contrary, some people think complicated levels are bad design. Others don't. It's all subjective.
Eh, no. If you hit a wall, pass through it and fall off the map, thats a bad thing, its not up for interpretation. There are similar rules for design.

Sure people can like weird stuff such as that or find some charm in them, or maybe devs can subvert such conceptions to the favor of the game. But if the rules within a game are working to the detriment of the intended experience, thats bad. No one in good consciousness would say the quality of a game like Ride to Hell Retribution is up to debate or subjective, even if some people may find joy in playing it for the kicks.
 
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StereoVsn

Member
Yeah, no day goes without me thinking about how much I dislike when people talk about kusoge.

Just kidding, never heard the word before in my entire life.
Yep, OP is awfully serious about some obscure weeb terminology.

But reading this thread basically entire product catalog of Compile Heart is kusoge. 😉
 
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Animated GIF


I've never heard that term before, but I love it. There's so many shit games that I play with my buddies that are so fun to play and we never properly categorized it as such. Now we can. Thanks!
 
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NanaMiku

Member
It's the first time I found out about Kusoge as so bad that it's so good.

I only know kusoge as crappy game overall. In Japan, they always decide kusoge of the year
2021 winner was Balan Wonderland: https://koty.wiki/2021GP
 
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manzo

Member
During the 8 and 16-bit era, the term was more in line with ”yo-ge kusoge”, which meant that foreign games were shit games. On the home front, the japanese considered kusoges trash like Bokosuka Wars. Whatever came from outside Japan was highly expected to be a kusoge. That pretty much was true back in the 80’s and early 90’s.

Also, kusoge doesn’t mean fun. It’s just a shit game.

Sadly enough, the term holds true at least for me in the past 5 years.
 
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Eh, no. If you hit a wall, pass through it and fall off the map, thats a bad thing, its not up for interpretation. There are similar rules for design.

Sure people can like weird stuff such as that or find some charm in them, or maybe devs can subvert such conceptions to the favor of the game. But if the rules within a game are working to the detriment of the intended experience, thats bad. No one in good consciousness would say the quality of a game like Ride to Hell Retribution is up to debate or subjective, even if some people may find joy in playing it for the kicks.
Who or what is the arbiter which decides this or any other aspect of game design is inherently "good" or "bad"?
 
Yep, OP is awfully serious about some obscure weeb terminology.

But reading this thread basically entire product catalog of Compile Heart is kusoge. 😉
Say what you want about other compile heart titles but you have to admit, Dragon Star Varnir is actually pretty decent. Goat cast, goat character development, goat progression system and minimal fanservice compared to the other titles.
 

Arsic

Loves his juicy stink trail scent
The FGC is neckbeard central. Fighting games are my favourite genre but I still refuse to discuss it with anyone except for discord friends. There's chill gaming communities, there's toxic game communities and then there's the FGC...
And after that is any MOBA community.

Truly the most unholy of people.
 
And after that is any MOBA community.

Truly the most unholy of people.
neckbeard pecking order:

Fighting game community(only community which ostracises people who play on wifi for starters) => Character action community >>>>> the rest.

This can NOT be disputed!!!
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Who or what is the arbiter which decides this or any other aspect of game design is inherently "good" or "bad"?
Engagement. Good game design engages, but naturally that has variations and also depends on the type of experience you're advertising or going for.

And then there are other factors that affect the perceived quality of a game besides game design, such as presentation, specific elements of its gameplay or even just novelty. In some cases, just the sheer meta absurdity of it can make a game interesting despite being terrible, aka "so bad its good".
 
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What "Kusoge" means is essentially "fun shit game". It's mostly used in the fighting game circles but i've seen people use it for some other type of games, usually JRPGs. And i've seen people echo the same sentiment towards other type of games a lot even if they don't know the exact term to describe it.

The way I see it, it's an oxymoron for wine sipping pseudointellectuals who think their taste is so "refined" that they can't just admit that a fun game is good if they perceive it to have "on paper" flaws which prevent it from being "good".

If a game is fun, then it is not shit. The role of a game is to entertain the player. Just like how the job of a cleaning product is to clean bacteria from surfaces. Just like how the job of a lamp is to illuminate the surroundings. If it succeeds at entertaining the player then it is good. If it fails to entertain the player, then it is bad. Simple. You can argue other games are better if they are more polished or better designed or whatever. But ultimately, if it is fun then it is good.

This sort of "kusoge" mentality just confuses things and doesn't give developers credit where it is due for creating games that other people will enjoy. I've seen games which people admit are fun(kusoge) get completely trashed by those same people and reviewbombed and ultimately flop as a result. It's a very anti-fun mentality that makes people forget why they play games to begin with and hurts the industry.

Nah fam.

Sounds like an apt term to describe some of those golden age euro jank WRPGs on PC.

They're shit in terms of craftsmanship, i.e. production values are sorely lacking while being pretty darn fun to play.

I think your logic fails because you're treating games as though their quality can only be measured in some binary way; i.e. it's good or not.

You can enjoy a game while recognizing parts of it are shit. A great example is Spider-Man 2 from Insomniac. All in all, it's a solid 8.5/10, very fun to play, but some aspects of the game are utter fucking tripe, like the writing in some of the scenes and any moment where MJ is on-screen or playable.

Thanks for introducing me to the term.
 
Nah fam.

Sounds like an apt term to describe some of those golden age euro jank WRPGs on PC.

They're shit in terms of craftsmanship, i.e. production values are sorely lacking while being pretty darn fun to play.

I think your logic fails because you're treating games as though their quality can only be measured in some binary way; i.e. it's good or not.

You can enjoy a game while recognizing parts of it are shit. A great example is Spider-Man 2 from Insomniac. All in all, it's a solid 8.5/10, very fun to play, but some aspects of the game are utter fucking tripe, like the writing in some of the scenes and any moment where MJ is on-screen or playable.

Thanks for introducing me to the term.
An 8.5/10 is bad to you? What???
 

IAmRei

Member
Kusoge literally means shit game

Nothing to do with being fun.
Yep, Last time i recall, kusoge is shit game. And it means a game who is bad. Doesnt have any fun at all.

I never know if kusoge still have any fun.

Kusoge usually put into bad western game in circa 80s - 00s (i know some japanese games also got this term as well, but usually for western games if my memory serves me right)

I read it from old harcoregaming101 website btw
 

sigmaZ

Member
What "Kusoge" means is essentially "fun shit game". It's mostly used in the fighting game circles but i've seen people use it for some other type of games, usually JRPGs. And i've seen people echo the same sentiment towards other type of games a lot even if they don't know the exact term to describe it.

The way I see it, it's an oxymoron for wine sipping pseudointellectuals who think their taste is so "refined" that they can't just admit that a fun game is good if they perceive it to have "on paper" flaws which prevent it from being "good".

If a game is fun, then it is not shit. The role of a game is to entertain the player. Just like how the job of a cleaning product is to clean bacteria from surfaces. Just like how the job of a lamp is to illuminate the surroundings. If it succeeds at entertaining the player then it is good. If it fails to entertain the player, then it is bad. Simple. You can argue other games are better if they are more polished or better designed or whatever. But ultimately, if it is fun then it is good.

This sort of "kusoge" mentality just confuses things and doesn't give developers credit where it is due for creating games that other people will enjoy. I've seen games which people admit are fun(kusoge) get completely trashed by those same people and reviewbombed and ultimately flop as a result. It's a very anti-fun mentality that makes people forget why they play games to begin with and hurts the industry.
I live in Japan and my friends and I use this word all the time.
I consider most crappy gatcha games as kusoge.
Things can be simultaneously be good and bad based on different parameters.
And the 'role' of a game is going to be highly subjective.
Different people look to games for different kinds of enjoyment.

Soda is extremely harmful to the body, but can also simultaneously be delicious for example.
So is it a 'good' drink?
Just as soda's appeal lies in its taste despite its health drawbacks, a game's initial enjoyment factor doesn't necessarily correlate with its overall quality or impact on players' well-being, or even their overall enjoyment of the game over time.

The term kusoge ofen ackowledges that games are addicting but also makes note of questionable design choices that might stand out to someone.
I personally do not think any type of game (or anything really) should be free from subjectivity or criticism. Additionally, I think that constructive criticism in gaming is vital, as it not only guides players in their choices but also pushes developers towards innovation and addressing player concerns.

Ultimately, I think the major issue that you bring up is the review bombing, which I would agree is immature if the people doing so haven't even played the game. I too wish that didn't happen, though I don't like the phenomenon of people simping for games to shield them from criticism either.
 
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Isa

Member
In Soviet Russia, Kusoge hates YOU!

Say what you want about other compile heart titles but you have to admit, Dragon Star Varnir is actually pretty decent. Goat cast, goat character development, goat progression system and minimal fanservice compared to the other titles.
Bu...but my girl and I love fan service. We're part of the problem I guess, I know quite a few of the rare gamers out there that even know of Compile Heart love to rag on the company. DavidInc or whatever goes off any chance he gets lol. But we like them, nothing special though. They were a competent shooter dev at one time iirc.

On topic I've heard the term used purely derogatory in nature as well as the so bad its good or low budget stuff like what spawned in the PS2 era ala EDF, Oneechanbara and the like.
 
Engagement. Good game design engages, but naturally that has variations and also depends on the type of experience you're advertising or going for.

And then there are other factors that affect the perceived quality of a game besides game design, such as presentation, specific elements of its gameplay or even just novelty. In some cases, just the sheer meta absurdity of it can make a game interesting despite being terrible, aka "so bad its good".
Engagement? So in other words, fun. So you admit that ultimately, whether game design is objectively good or bad boils down to if a game is fun.
 
Say what you want about other compile heart titles but you have to admit, Dragon Star Varnir is actually pretty decent. Goat cast, goat character development, goat progression system and minimal fanservice compared to the other titles.
Shark Tank Writing GIF


The research list for new things to check out keeps on growing. Any other games you'd like to namedrop?
 

StereoVsn

Member
Say what you want about other compile heart titles but you have to admit, Dragon Star Varnir is actually pretty decent. Goat cast, goat character development, goat progression system and minimal fanservice compared to the other titles.
I haven’t even tried any of their games in years. That said I very much doubt “minimal fan service” is possible with that company.
 

Killer8

Member
It comes from the same place as people who, when they make their game of the year lists, don't really make the list about the top 10 games they actually honestly enjoyed, and instead make it about what is 'culturally most relevant' or 'deserving' or some other shit. You see, so much of gaming discourse online and how people craft their opinions is that it's all just a big facade to appeal more cool or correct to other people. Calling something kusoge gives people a sort of permission to be allowed to like a game which was publicly unpopular, without bearing the shame of fully committing to calling it good. One of the worst recent examples was Death Stranding which had to be constantly qualified as "I know it's a walking simulator but" before any praise could be given to the game. You can see a similar level of caution whenever someone says they liked The Last of Us Part 2.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Engagement? So in other words, fun. So you admit that ultimately, whether game design is objectively good or bad boils down to if a game is fun.
A game with poor design can be 'fun', for reasons that i very clearly laid out for you. Its a bad game thats also fun, get it?
 
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I always interpreted kusoge not as "poorly designed but fun" or "janky but fun," but purely "bad and not fun." Like eurojank is a neutral term, but kusoge is simply bad. I would never call the EDF games kusoge because frankly they have amazing gameplay and game design.

Takeshi's Challenge is usually listed as the poster boy for kusoge, but I'm gonna be honest, that game is brilliant on many levels and I hate how people bandwagon trash it.
 
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