Doesn't Riot nerf champions when this happens?
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Introduction to MOBAs
- Thread starter SteveWinwood
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Doesn't Riot nerf champions when this happens?
If they are too strong, yes. They are despite minor nerfs still viable and popular in pro play in their newfound roles.
In only their new roles or in both roles?
In general, isn't that a byproduct of having any kind of prevailing meta, too? It takes a pretty solid dose of OP to shake people out of their habits enough to accept a character in a new role.
Both for the ones who were still played in their old role before the new one was found, only in the new for some few champions that had already fallen out of favor in their old role before they were picked up in the new role, though the nerf was only intended at the new role. For example, one carry mage that started being played as a support got the base damage of her spells lowered slightly and got increased AP scaling on the spells instead, nerfing the support role while maintaining the strength of the carry role.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Riot nerf every support who can hold their own midlane against a dedicated AP caster.
Not sure about that, still got a couple of friends who are salty about Riot nerfing supports going into other roles. We don't really see jungle leona anymore. Apart from Lulu mid I don't recall supports still performing other roles.
Also, steve, what about making a list of people who can help new players who want to join a specific moba? Stuff like game id, time zone, etc.
Jungle Leona was not good and gimmicky at best, and she never got nerfed due to being too good in the jungle.
Apart from Lulu we have recently seen Soraka more and more mid, and top. More on point, there have been many traditional mid champions that have gone support such as Annie, Morgana, Zyra, Vel'Koz, Kayle and even some other ones, that have been in other roles get played as support in a few (some only once or twice) games, such as Galio, Kennen, Amumu, Malphite.
Note that support in League is not really the same thing as support in Dota. In Dota, you have that 1-5 spectrum where everything is either a carry or a support to some degree, while in League you have more distinct roles, such as bruiser, tank and jungler beyond the carry/support roles. There is also more of a distinction between ranged AD carries and melee AD carries. Using Dota terminology, some of the bruisers would be called carry while some would be called support, and many of them can build like either of those roles depending on what the team needs. Most tanks would be called support. Junglers are a mixed bag, many of them would be called support while some of the ones that have recently become popular would be called carries.
This difference in terminology is apparent when speaking about supports doing other things. Using Dota terminology, Malphite would be a support. We've seen AP Malphite being played mid quite some times during this season, which would count as a "support to carry" transition using Dota terminology, but not with League terminology.
I've been playing the original DotA for years and switched to Heroes of Newerth some years ago.
I still think that HoN is the perfect successor for the original DotA and it really saddens me that LoL is getting so much attention. HoN fixed most of DotA's issues (horrible gfx, lags and ping issues, disconnects) and it's a shame that it's not getting more attention these days.
I've tried switching to LoL because of a couple of friends but it just feels way too spammy (too much burst from just about every champ) and I cannot play a moba where you cannot deny your own creeps. This is one of the key features I cannot live without.
I think I will never be able to enjoy Dota 2 because of the somewhat broken netcode. Believe me, I've tried to play it but it feels so slow and laggy. The most annoying thing is the turn animation of the heroes and the lousy attack animations. Even with a ping ~20 this game feels so anoyingly slow and laggy. This video perfectly illustrates what I mean and it gets even worse with spells and heroes turning. Playing one single game of HoN (or even LoL) after a game of Dota 2 makes me feel like I'm in heaven again.
I still think that HoN is the perfect successor for the original DotA and it really saddens me that LoL is getting so much attention. HoN fixed most of DotA's issues (horrible gfx, lags and ping issues, disconnects) and it's a shame that it's not getting more attention these days.
I've tried switching to LoL because of a couple of friends but it just feels way too spammy (too much burst from just about every champ) and I cannot play a moba where you cannot deny your own creeps. This is one of the key features I cannot live without.
I think I will never be able to enjoy Dota 2 because of the somewhat broken netcode. Believe me, I've tried to play it but it feels so slow and laggy. The most annoying thing is the turn animation of the heroes and the lousy attack animations. Even with a ping ~20 this game feels so anoyingly slow and laggy. This video perfectly illustrates what I mean and it gets even worse with spells and heroes turning. Playing one single game of HoN (or even LoL) after a game of Dota 2 makes me feel like I'm in heaven again.
Wish I could once experience a ping that low. I've always played around 100.
sobaka770
Banned
In DotA2 you also have heroes which can carry and support depending on the current state of meta (Alchemist and Naga Siren come to mind). That being said, the labeling may not be necessary for pros, but for beginners it's good to have at least a general idea of what the hero does.
#1 position pugna best pugna.
I don't really consider mana costs in HotS to be significant, particularly when their are nodes to refill it just sitting around everywhere and many characters have low mana costs and high mana returns. If mana costs were a big deal I think you'd see Malfurion who has innervate all the time. Instead it's Uther, Uther, Uther.
I don't think it has been brought up yet, but turn animations are part of the reason melee heroes are better (imo) in Dota. It doesn't let ranged heroes with extremely fast attack animations stutter step and kite.
A Clinkz in the early game might be able to get off 1 attack to kite a melee while running, but in another game he might be able to get off 3 attacks.
Same goes for letting melee heroes get LH against ranged heroes and the free harass and some items working differently on melee. Try getting LH with Lina, ugh.
All of that said it is a big wall for some who just want faster and more direct control. I think I learned to respect it because I started with Sand King and learned which heroes I could stun -> channel Ultimate because they could not turn around and finish their cast animation to interrupt me as long as I finished my stun on the opposite side of them.
That video is very old, and things have much changed since then.
What Hazaro said is right, turn rates are a thing. There is a hero in Dota 2 who part of his game hinges on messing with people's turn rates (Batrider). If you play as or against one, you will see how important it is.
damn hi-abandongamerate, give the new guy some breathing room
I think it might be a misplaced attempt at streamlining. See also: Strife removing wards for impermanent vision-granting control points on the map.
I think it might be a misplaced attempt at streamlining. See also: Strife removing wards for impermanent vision-granting control points on the map.
What I really want to see is the return of the Int Carries in full effect. They have had very little time to shine in Dota 2. I want more position 1 Necrophos, Silencer, Pugna, Leshrac and Death Prophet.
There was a time last patch where DP and pugna were used as pushing carries.
It lasted like 2 weeks.
Schweinehund
Member
I enjoy attack animations because they add another layer to the mind game of last hitting.
After like 10 minutes into Dota 2 they're hardly noticeable due to stat growth.
Cast animations are great because they allow for greater variety of skills and skill power.
After like 10 minutes into Dota 2 they're hardly noticeable due to stat growth.
Cast animations are great because they allow for greater variety of skills and skill power.
I agree.
It adds more depth and strategy to the game, such as animation cancelling and faking hits/spells, but it can be unbelievably frustrating for newcomers.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
As someone who primarily plays bot games (aside from goofy stuff like ARAM in LoL or AD in DotA2) there's nothing that will cause me to not give one of these games a chance is the lack of a bot mode or a very bad one.
LoL's is very simple and easy but a lot of fun. I like DotA2's as well but even on easy one person playing terrible or just plain feeding can make it really difficult to win (especially if you're bad like me).
Awesomenauts and Smite's are fine I guess but I haven't gotten drawn back into either one.
LoL's is very simple and easy but a lot of fun. I like DotA2's as well but even on easy one person playing terrible or just plain feeding can make it really difficult to win (especially if you're bad like me).
Awesomenauts and Smite's are fine I guess but I haven't gotten drawn back into either one.
SteveWinwood
Member
TharpDaddy
Member
fixed it up to date
Just checked, league was back in 1st. It seems there's a couple Dota tournaments going on? All the league streams atm are just pro players streaming. It's crazy to me how big league is. A few pro players streaming are beating out (smaller) Dota tournaments.
Dota mostly gets twitch views when tournaments are being played, while LoL there are popular personalities who seem to stream every day. While Dota has a few personalities who bring in a lot of viewers, they tend to be professional players that don't stream that often.
Smite has a pretty good viewer count. Is there something propping it up, or is that normal?
Smite has a pretty good viewer count. Is there something propping it up, or is that normal?
fixed it up to date
Not showing Infnite Crisis, Dawngate, or Hoots.
Hiding something?
Rygar 8 Bit
Jaguar 64-bit
normal they have 24 hour streams on the smite channel
Lets see, for Dota there is WPC Western Qualifier Tiebreaker just finished, Dream League is playing today with popular teams in the matches, and ESL One is kicking off its European Qualifiers today. The D2CL is also going on, but its on Daily Motion and is mostly B Teams today.
While Dota may not pull in the same numbers League does, at least there is real competitive games to watch throughout the day, I love it. Between European, American, Chinese, Korean, and SEA tournaments, there is usually something going on.
HON is at 1,429.
HotS is at 1,329
Infinite Crisis is at 165 (It's higher than yesterday's 59! hooray for growth!)
Dawngate is at 119.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Steve pretending Dota 2 is more popular than LoL? Come on man.
TharpDaddy
Member
Looking at top league and dota streams, we have C9 Balls (a professional League player) at ~26k viewers, and DreamLeague (i assume a Dota tournament?) at ~24k. Mobas are huge. These 2 streams alone have more viewers than all but the top 5 games.
Yeah. Dota is popular, but it only beat League for a small period of time. League is currently beating it again, even though Dota has multiple tournaments going on and League only has some professionals doing their daily streams.
Yeah. Dota is popular, but it only beat League for a small period of time. League is currently beating it again, even though Dota has multiple tournaments going on and League only has some professionals doing their daily streams.
Problem with dota streamers is that the most popular players either 1. Don't stream very often or 2. Stream on other services due to country differences, ie Chinese players.
SteveWinwood
Member
You have the Russian Dreamleague stream at 22k and the english one at 21k.
The other thing to consider, and I'm not saying it's a big factor or anything, but it is there, is you can watch all this stuff in the client as well. I don't know if those numbers are surfaced anywhere but I always wonder how much they make up of the viewers.
The only really really big Dota 2 streamers who pull in huge numbers rivaling most tournaments are Dendi, IceIceIce, and maaaaaaybe SingSing after a long break (ten years...), but they do it so infrequently it's not really comparable to the daily people on LoL.
All lowercase is my I'm just playin' text
I wasn't correcting or anything just stating for clarification.
TharpDaddy
Member
My bad, i typed that post poorly. I wasn't using that to compare the popularity of League vs Dota, i was saying how those 2 streams alone (which are a small part of the total # of streams) are more popular than all but 5 games on twitch. It shows the massive popularity of mobas that a single stream from either game can have more viewers than the entirety of Diablo or WoW.
Nice OP, but I still don't know what it's all about.
Too lazy to google, too. What does MOBA stand for? What's a jungle exactly? What's a river, apparently no real river? Due to that gif on the 1p I at least know that the towers are some sort of defense. I also didn't immediately see what's deep about it or why it even needs to be deep.
I'm more of a single player guy so that's probably why the OP still didn't intrigue me too much, but I hope I could give some suggestions to flesh it more out if you want.
Too lazy to google, too. What does MOBA stand for? What's a jungle exactly? What's a river, apparently no real river? Due to that gif on the 1p I at least know that the towers are some sort of defense. I also didn't immediately see what's deep about it or why it even needs to be deep.
I'm more of a single player guy so that's probably why the OP still didn't intrigue me too much, but I hope I could give some suggestions to flesh it more out if you want.
I would guess about 10%. It's very limiting, but it's much better quality. I can't watch Dota 2 through the game on my iPad, but I can use Twitch. But whenever I'm at my computer, it's always through in game. Plus it's much easier to load twitch.tv than it is to open the game. And I think you have to buy a ticket to watch in game, or did they get rid of that?
But give me the choice, I'd watch in-game.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
I'm glad that Dota2 has a lot of tourneys but it's unfortunate how few there are at good times for NA and given the somewhat fragmented nature of the tourney scene it can be harder to keep up with what is happening and to find VOD's.
There are downsides to LoL's method with most of the energy focused around the LCS but I appreciate the more regular nature of the thing.
TharpDaddy
Member
Nice OP, but I still don't know what it's all about.
Too lazy to google, too. What does MOBA stand for? What's a jungle exactly? What's a river, apparently no real river? Due to that gif on the 1p I at least know that the towers are some sort of defense. I also didn't immediately see what's deep about it or why it even needs to be deep.
I'm more of a single player guy so that's probably why the OP still didn't intrigue me too much, but I hope I could give some suggestions to flesh it more out if you want.
Multiplayer online battle arena. Jungle is a place where neutral monsters are that you can kill for experience and gold, as opposed to minions which are units that are fighting for one of the player sides. A river is a path that usually cuts through the entire map, and is.. well.. river themed. In dota it holds runes, in league it's where Baron and Dragon are stationed. Dota also has Roshan in the river. Baron and Roshan are both very hard, 'boss' style units which give you a powerful item or buff for killing.
You have the Russian Dreamleague stream at 22k and the english one at 21k.
The other thing to consider, and I'm not saying it's a big factor or anything, but it is there, is you can watch all this stuff in the client as well. I don't know if those numbers are surfaced anywhere but I always wonder how much they make up of the viewers.
All lowercase is my I'm just playin' text
In client the numbers tend to be between 2-10k people for most tournament games of the current caliber. They bring in good viewers, but twitch tends to get 5-10x more consistently.
Anyone have a clue what sites the Chinese and other Asian nations use for Steaming?
SteveWinwood
Member
Nice OP, but I still don't know what it's all about.
Too lazy to google, too. What does MOBA stand for? What's a jungle exactly? What's a river, apparently no real river? Due to that gif on the 1p I at least know that the towers are some sort of defense. I also didn't immediately see what's deep about it or why it even needs to be deep.
I'm more of a single player guy so that's probably why the OP still didn't intrigue me too much, but I hope I could give some suggestions to flesh it more out if you want.
I was always trying to figure out how much to go into as some of it only factors into this game or that game and after a while it stops being a brief overview and just an introduction into whatever moba I'm into.
Although actually defining moba is probably a good idea...
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Nice OP, but I still don't know what it's all about.
Too lazy to google, too. What does MOBA stand for? What's a jungle exactly? What's a river, apparently no real river? Due to that gif on the 1p I at least know that the towers are some sort of defense. I also didn't immediately see what's deep about it or why it even needs to be deep.
I'm more of a single player guy so that's probably why the OP still didn't intrigue me too much, but I hope I could give some suggestions to flesh it more out if you want.
It's a term coined by Riot, stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Not very descriptive.
Jungle=the area between the lanes.
River=the dividing line between the two sides of the map
Why it's deep is a long, long answer.
League's problem is that the games don't mean a lot. There are a TON of LCS games and as long as you aren't god-awful you aren't at risk for dropping out of the circuit. The benefit is a singular focus and a "scene" that is very easy to follow. Dota is confusing to follow, but each game means more in their individual tournament.
I personally think that they should approach things like NASCAR. Each tournament has a point total attached to it. At the end of each tourney, points are divided up. This gives legitimacy to the tournaments from a meta scene sense and gives fans something to grasp onto. This also gives Valve transparency when selecting who to invite to TI (or just seeding).
Tyran_lord
Member
I like this idea!
TharpDaddy
Member
It's hard to think of a descriptive term for the genre, due to it being pretty unique. It's not quite an RTS, it's not action-y enough for a hero brawler (due to implication of brawler), so while it's not perfect the term MOBA is identifying enough for the genre for the time being.
TurtleSnatcher
Member
Yeah. You can't base anything off the numbers at any given time due to random tournaments occurring and that shifting viewers
I noticed in the OP that it says Heroes of the Storm has gold in-game but it wasn't very specific and made it sound as if the gold could be used for items in matches similar to LoL and Dota 2. The gold is only outside the game and used for the store to buy new heroes/mounts/skins. The gold is awarded after level gains etc outside the game once you earn Xp completing matches.
HotS uses a talent system as opposed to buying items in matches. I've been playing it over the past few weeks and it's been a blast. I read a few people concerned that it's hard to comeback. I agree. Some maps are difficult with that option but I feel it is still very possible to come back. I've had many matches where tides shifted due to better team play and I've made comebacks even when being down by 5 levels.
It's still early and so they are tweaking stuff constantly. I personally find the unique heroes like Abathur awesome. He can totally swing a battle by hopping in and saving a guy with his shield and offering extra dps. Likewise his ability to burrow and ninja things with Bribe or Dragon statues is awesome.
It's really fun and doesn't feel slow to me but they did state they were looking at the speed. I'm a big fan of the games lasting about 20 mins a match. But yeah, I highly recommend people give it a try once they get in. It's really fun. Hope they get to beta soon. The queue times are a bit long due to so few people being in the tech alpha
I noticed in the OP that it says Heroes of the Storm has gold in-game but it wasn't very specific and made it sound as if the gold could be used for items in matches similar to LoL and Dota 2. The gold is only outside the game and used for the store to buy new heroes/mounts/skins. The gold is awarded after level gains etc outside the game once you earn Xp completing matches.
HotS uses a talent system as opposed to buying items in matches. I've been playing it over the past few weeks and it's been a blast. I read a few people concerned that it's hard to comeback. I agree. Some maps are difficult with that option but I feel it is still very possible to come back. I've had many matches where tides shifted due to better team play and I've made comebacks even when being down by 5 levels.
It's still early and so they are tweaking stuff constantly. I personally find the unique heroes like Abathur awesome. He can totally swing a battle by hopping in and saving a guy with his shield and offering extra dps. Likewise his ability to burrow and ninja things with Bribe or Dragon statues is awesome.
It's really fun and doesn't feel slow to me but they did state they were looking at the speed. I'm a big fan of the games lasting about 20 mins a match. But yeah, I highly recommend people give it a try once they get in. It's really fun. Hope they get to beta soon. The queue times are a bit long due to so few people being in the tech alpha
Schweinehund
Member
Infinite crisis is extremely similar to league, while Dawngate has some interesting ideas and the artstyle is great. It feels more inspired by league than an actual clone.
Anyone have any guides for dawngate (character specific or in general noob guide)? Tried jungling as Freia but I failed horribly.
Anyone have any guides for dawngate (character specific or in general noob guide)? Tried jungling as Freia but I failed horribly.
SteveWinwood
Member
Typo has been fixed. My bad, typed it up quickly.
I'm gonna be busy this week, but if someone wants to put something together either in posts, or in a google doc or something I can totally throw it in the OP.