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[Represent.]

I'd like to also give an honorable mention to Insomniacs Spiderman: Miles Morales

I was shocked at how good and fun that combat was

 

[Danjin44]

has more to do with hit reaction and feel

So is games like Bayonetta and DMC or is it your issue those games is not "realistic" enough for you?



Because to me and to lot of people these games absolutely have that "feel". Also what games like Bayonetta and DMC games have that games like TLOU will never have is the satisfaction of executing difficult combos.

 

[Generic]

The counter to the Izuna Drop is the planning you need to do to actually execute it.
Last enemy - Go for it.
Got some distance - Go for it.
Surrounded - Aint nobody got time for that.

Izuna Drop is better when you're surrounded since it will hit all enemies.

 

[SirKicksalot]

16 years later, nothing beats Dark Messiah.

There are some indie demos that get close but there's always something missing, or something extra that drags down the experience.
Dark Messiah hits the perfect balance - and has multiple weapon types, plus awesome physics and magic. Combat is a joy in this game. It never disppears up its own ass with combos and techniques, it provides excellent feedback and always offers many options.

 

[Black_Stride]

Izuna Drop is better when you're surrounded since it will hit all enemies.

They will grab you during recovery, even if you try dodge upon landing.
And since it isnt Instakill on MN, it can be quite dangerous.

 

[Black_Stride]

Again. You're equating quality to depth and nothing else. Not everything deep is good. And not everything good is deep.

Im saying melee combat doesnt have to be deep to be good. What matters most is if it feels good to play.

You are saying even if it feels good to play, it cant be good, because theres no combos.

And theres 2 buttons. You can dodge.

Thats the thing.
It doesnt feel good.
Its just a QTE.
Im not actually doing anything.

You dont even need to dodge.
After the first hit, you and the enemy are in lockstep, they have to die or you have to forget this isnt interactive.
Other enemies will actually wait for you to complete the set of animations before doing anything else.
You can try it yourself.
Rush into a room with a melee weapon and attack an enemy starting the lockstep animation....the others will do everything but attack you, so there is no reason to do anything but complete this characters deathloop.
Even runners in pack once the animation has started they are seemingly surprised to see their buddy getting hit and will wait for their buddy to die before doing anything else.
And if you start an animation with another one....then the others will again be shocked and do everything but attack.
You can clear a whole room just doing this because each time you start the animation, the other runners wont do anything, if they are the right distance apart you can just keep mashing attack to go from animation to the next.

 

[Alexios]

Too many different styles to call any one the best. I like slow and methodical a la Zelda or Souls, I like technical and combo based a la Bayonetta or DMC, I like brawls a la Yakuza and the crowd control in Sengoku Basara, I like it directional and physics based in Mount & Blade, I also like it 2D as in Capcom's Dungeons & Dragons or Battle Circuit. I mention a couple games that aren't focused on weapons so there's not much slashing but it's the same deal anyway, God Hand not using swords doesn't make it a different genre to Ninja Gaiden and Cadillacs and Dinosaurs is much like Sengoku 3.

 

[AlteredForms]

You cant win a melee scrap in DMC, Nioh, Sekiro, Elden Ring, Bayonetta or Ninja Gaiden by just mashing the attack button.
You will get fucked in two seconds.

TLOU you only have the attack button, once you and your opponent are in lock step, its a glorified QTE.
Im not saying its necessarily a bad one, the game isnt designed as a melee fighter, just like DMC might have guns but if someone asks what game has the best shooting feel, im not going to say floating in the air holding down the fire button in DMC is top tier shooting.

Its borderline stupid to assume a game design around stealth and shooting would have a better melee system than games designed around melee systems?
Worse still when said melee system is a one button affair....melee combat in TLOU is literally one button, what other game mentioned in this thread has a one button melee system?

16 years later, nothing beats Dark Messiah.

There are some indie demos that get close but there's always something missing, or something extra that drags down the experience.
Dark Messiah hits the perfect balance - and has multiple weapon types, plus awesome physics and magic. Combat is a joy in this game. It never disppears up its own ass with combos and techniques, it provides excellent feedback and always offers many options.

Was waiting for somebody to say this. The melee combat is excellent, even though there aren't many combos, though they aren't a bad thing if implemented well. I never finished the game because I bitched out at the spider's den. There's a mod that replaces all of them to cows but I can't be bothered finishing it.

 

[AdamMcKraken]

 

[AndrewRyan]

I love to parry and and counter so Sekiro is my current favorite. The Surge 1/2 also have neat parry systems.

Here's my favorites from the genre:
Sekiro
Bayonetta 1
Bayonetta 2
God of War
Darksiders 3
Furi
Devil May Cry 5
Metal Gear Rising
The Surge 1/2
Ninja Gaiden

 

[Represent.]

So is games like Bayonetta and DMC or is it your issue those games is not "realistic" enough for you?



Because to me and to lot of people these games absolutely have that "feel". Also what games like Bayonetta and DMC games have that games like TLOU will never have is the satisfaction of executing difficult combos.

Yes. Way too unrealistic for me. I used to love DMC. At one point DMC2 was my GOAT game. Until I played Ninja Gaiden Black. And that changed everything for me. It was less flashy (but still flashy) and I couldnt go back to DMC after. Then as I grew older, my tastes started to gear towards more gritty, realistic styles. I like hard hitting slower paced combat now.

Even beyond just games.. I gear more towards heavier, hard hitting combat in general. My fav fight in DragonBall is arguably one of the more slower paced ones. Vegeta vs Broly in the Broly movie. Because I could feel every punch.

I prefered this fight over the Gogeta vs Broly fight (though that was also awesome) simply because they slowed it down and let me feel shit

 

[HYDE]

Nioh 2 and it's not even close. If your hack 'n slash doesn't have a sheathe button, you're not doing it stylishly enough.


Visually it's kind of hard to tell what's going on if you're not the one controlling it, but god damn what a satisfying battle system.

Also, bonus:

Yes! Both Nioh’s are great! As is Wo Long: Fallen Dynasty

 

[Danjin44]

Yes. Way too unrealistic for me. I used to love DMC. At one point DMC2 was my GOAT game. Until I played Ninja Gaiden Black. And that changed everything for me. It was less flashy (but still flashy) and I couldnt go back to DMC after. Then as I grew older, my tastes started to gear towards more gritty, realistic styles. I like hard hitting slower paced combat now.

Even beyond just games.. I gear more towards heavier, hard hitting combat in general. My fav fight in DragonBall is arguably one of the more slower paced ones. Vegeta vs Broly in the Broly movie. Because I could feel every punch.

I prefered this fight over the Gogeta vs Broly fight (though that was also awesome) simply because they slowed it down and let me feel shit

You talk about "feel" but the problem with games like TLOU melee combat is I dont "feel" anything because most of its automated, I barely feel I'm the one contributing to the fight.

In games like Bayonetta and DMC my skill how executing combos matters so not only I feel badass fighting but also feel satisfied because my skill actually matter in the fight itself.

Even in slower combat like Monster Hunter my skill matters in how the fight goes.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I’m leaning towards Seikiro because the feeling you get when parrying a weapon is top tier. The game communicates that feeling so well, and then the way your character grabs hold of the enemy as you jam your sword into them feels powerful as fuck.

None of the flashy fighters like Bayonetta convey that same feeling. Enemies just sort of bounce around as you whittle their big health bars down. You’re doing all kinds of cool shit, but there’s rarely a feeling of impact to any of it. Might as well be using a rubber sword.



Runners up
Tenchu Stealth Assassins
Assassin’s Creed stealthy one hit blade kills are also sublime

 

[_Idea_of_Evil_]

Both Bayonetta and Sekiro already mentioned so I go with Astral Chain.

The synergy of pulling off combos with two characters is amazing.

A most formal cheers in complete agreement.

Great mentions all around - Dragon's Dogma and Bloodborne for me.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Again. You're equating quality to depth and nothing else. Not everything deep is good. And not everything good is deep.

Im saying melee combat doesnt have to be deep to be good. What matters most is if it feels good to play.

You are saying even if it feels good to play, it cant be good, because theres no combos.

And theres 2 buttons. You can dodge.

Spectacle fighters like DMC and Bayonetta feel much better to play than less combat focused games like TLOU because of how deep the mechanics and movesets are imo. Sure, hit impact plays a factor but it doesn't mean anything to me if there is little freedom of expression.

 

[Dragon_Rocks]

Thats the thing.
It doesnt feel good.
Its just a QTE.
Im not actually doing anything.

You dont even need to dodge.
After the first hit, you and the enemy are in lockstep, they have to die or you have to forget this isnt interactive.
Other enemies will actually wait for you to complete the set of animations before doing anything else.
You can try it yourself.
Rush into a room with a melee weapon and attack an enemy starting the lockstep animation....the others will do everything but attack you, so there is no reason to do anything but complete this characters deathloop.
Even runners in pack once the animation has started they are seemingly surprised to see their buddy getting hit and will wait for their buddy to die before doing anything else.
And if you start an animation with another one....then the others will again be shocked and do everything but attack.
You can clear a whole room just doing this because each time you start the animation, the other runners wont do anything, if they are the right distance apart you can just keep mashing attack to go from animation to the next.

You are saying "It doesnt feel good." is actually "It doesnt feel good to me." but it does to the other user and probably many others. Just accept that others like a type of combat that you don't. You can also take e.g. of God of War games where you might be mashing just one button to beat Zeus, Hercules or Baldur's face to a pulp. Its not deep but it does feel good (to me).

 

[Pyral Phoenix]

Sekiro - Lightning Reversal:

- Requires a bit of execution without being impossible;
- Looks cool;
- Relevant to Japanese samurai lore;
- Doesn’t break the game since it’s a counter;
- Hugely satisfying to use.

Best move ever.

Lightning reversal with Sakura Dance/Shadowrun/ Mist Raven is SOOOOOO freakin' good

 

[01011001]

You are saying "It doesnt feel good." is actually "It doesnt feel good to me." but it does to the other user and probably many others. Just accept that others like a type of combat that you don't. You can also take e.g. of God of War games where you might be mashing just one button to beat Zeus, Hercules or Baldur's face to a pulp. Its not deep but it does feel good (to me).

the difference is that it's a fighting system... which TLOU doesn't have, TLOU has a QTE sequence that starts once you press a button near an enemy.
that's like saying Dragon's Lair has a great fighting system

 

[Dragon_Rocks]

the difference is that it's a fighting system... which TLOU doesn't have, TLOU has a QTE sequence that starts once you press a button near an enemy.
that's like saying Dragon's Lair has a great fighting system

Does it matter? It's still part of the combat system for that game. So if some players feel good using it then what is the issue. Many games use hidden qte as part of their combat system. Ninja Gaiden 2 itself has the hidden qte of finishing off dismembered enemies. You just press one button near them which leads to a cool killing animation. It feels so good performing that though.

 

[01011001]

Does it matter? It's still part of the combat system for that game. So if some players feel good using it then what is the issue. Many games use hidden qte as part of their combat system. Ninja Gaiden 2 itself has the hidden qte of finishing off dismembered enemies. You just press one button near them which leads to a cool killing animation. It feels so good performing that though.

but now imaging if that final kill move was all there was... that's TLOU

 

[Dragon_Rocks]

but now imaging if that final kill move was all there was... that's TLOU

I have played TLOU2 only once and I remember it being more than that. Some enemies did dodge, block or parry when I initiated melee on them when they were on full health. Also some enemies still shot me when I was busy beating their friends with melee weapons. But even if what you say is correct even then it should not be an issue if the player likes doing that.

 

[I Master l]

Ive yet to see a western game that doesn't suck at combat/melee, Good mechanics and
controls and responsiveness in action games comes only from Japan

My choice is Nioh 2

 

[bender]

Ive yet to see a western game that dosent suck at combat/melee, Good mechanics and
controls and responsiveness in action games comes only from Japan

My choice is Nioh 2

That would be a fun topic: What's the best western developed melee action game?

Fun topic with Bayonetta 3 coming out. I was just playing Ninja Gaiden on XSX last night.

 

[F31 Leopard]

Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate. I was going to choose Risebreak but I like Hunter Arts better than Switch Skills.

 

[Alexios]

Ive yet to see a western game that doesn't suck at combat/melee, Good mechanics and
controls and responsiveness in action games comes only from Japan

My choice is Nioh 2

I mean, Mount & Blade has rocked the past decade or two with its directional physics driven systems but I guess it counts as somewhat Eastern even if it's not Asian? Turkey based iirc.

Then there are games like Jedi Outcast & Academy which were popular for online saber duels kinda following on from the likes of Rune. Recently there was Ghost of Tsushima.

But I guess there's nothing actually fast and combo based outside some fighting games like MK and KI. I think there were a few half decent western Souls clones though.

Oh, the Darksiders games were pretty good, each kinda different to the last, leaning on Zelda, DMC, Souls even with the third game which I liked a lot.

I mean, the Batman games' combat system was fun too, it's just so overused nowadays. And Ninja Theory did ok with DmC and such.

 

[manfestival]

Best devil may cry game coming through.

 

[Umbasaborne]

I mean dmc v is the pinnacle, but its very complex, and if your a newbie you wont be doing cool shit until you’ve really practiced the mechanics. I find that the dmc game require fighting game like precision to get the most out of them

 

[Aldric]

Both Bayonetta and Sekiro already mentioned so I go with Astral Chain.

The synergy of pulling off combos with two characters is amazing.

Came here to post that. I don't know if it's the absolute best but it's definitely the most underrated combat system in recent memory. Amazing variety of defensive and offensive options, absolutely top tier feedback, unique concept and looks phenomenal when mastered. It only really suffers from 30fps and Axe legion being too strong, other than that it's fantastic.

 

[Klosshufvud]

Tenchu Stealth Assassins as a 1998 PSX stealth game has amazing combat. Very nice blend of offense and defense. Reckless attack is punished and you have a wide array of moves to cover many angles and areas. The blood effects and animations make landing hits very satisfying.

But for 2022 standards, MH World is the absolute king of combat. Learning the intriciacies of Charge Blade is hugely rewarding and even the more simple weapons such as Lance are hugely satisfying in action. Once you battle Fatalis, you come to realize the genius of its systems.

 

[correojon]

My first picks have already been mentioned, so I'm going to open the gates and say Bayonetta 3 with Demon Slave:

• It allows you to summon a giant demon with its' own moveset for a quick powerful hit, or a counter, or a special skill, or to immobilize enemies, break enemy armor, trigger finishers...
• You can control the demon directly or buffer 2 moves, switch back control and combo with Bayonetta as the demon executes them, then switch back to the demon and buffer 2 more moves, go back to Bayo...
• You can have 3 different demons and 2 weapons equipped at any time, so if you start switching your active loadout you get an astronomical number of possibilities.

Demons are much more powerful than Bayonetta, but they are far from a win button: You need to get in there and learn to use them properly, as just summoning them will leave you vulnerable and can get them killed or enraged. The coolest thing is having them work with Bayonetta: You can summon a Demon to do a special attack that can launch big enemies into the air, then do an air combo with Bayonetta, summon another Demon to break armor as the enemy falls and finish with a torture attack. Your magic bar will deplete quickly when you're using them, but it'll also refill very quickly so you're encouraged to use them frequently for shorts bursts.

With weapons now being tied to demons and you being able to momentarily turn into them with specific moves you can make combos where up to 5 demons can appear, not to speak of some special moves that can summon smaller demons to fight along you.

It's a fantastic mechanic that adds a lot more depth to an already superb combat system.