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Kotaku has been blacklisted by Bethesda Softworks and Ubisoft

His weird gamergate stuff actually got him permabanned from gaf. He was quite active in the thread on it till he basically imploded with weird suicidal messages.

Fair enough. I'd have to read it, not sure I really want to dredge through gamergate threads. I really don't like having my mind toxified to where I forget what I actually think. If he was being cajoled by a games media outlet to fall in line with something and then cut off for doing it, then I can see why he became really involved in it. Far be it from me to hold suicidal breakdowns against someone, either.

He seems pretty level headed on his upper timeline there, saying he felt hurt by it, would love to talk to Stephen Totilo about what Jason Schreider told him, and then closed with:

M3RHEzq.png


Also, come to think of it, I remember the guy from being the ongoing target of disgusting torrents of mockery, degradation and fat shaming suicide pushers as per toxic internet culture... to the point where every prominent youtuber in those circles disabled their comments section in support against it. Doesn't seem like someone to tread on others, or that should be tread on.
 

JDSN

Banned
Oh, Boogie co-opting a situation and making it about him by some weird logic, unsurprising, that brings me back to his handwaving of gender-based harrasement. Lets just not bring this poor guy up anymore.
 

Adnor

Banned
Boogie lost a lot of respect after he defended using slurs because "It's part of the culture of that community" and "besides, it just means cigarretes in the UK!".




Anyway, it's a shame Ubisoft and Bethesda blacklisted Kotaku, but at least they showed they can stiill do their work even after that.
 
Not much else to say, mods permabanned him for his own health & asked us to not bring him up in the GG thread again, as it was clearly affecting his mental health in a bad way.

Going by his "The wound is still very deep" tweet regarding the kotaku thing I doubt much has changed.

I'm just taking his views on Kotaku blacklisting him with a grain of salt due to this, because if it's anything like his behavior on gaf at the same point in time there's probably a lot more to it.

Well, I never liked people shitting on Phil Fish for being an unstable, bi-polar person who would react to provocation with nuclear bombs. I remember how relentlessly degrading the dogpile threads on him were re: AnnoyedGamer, and feeling like the only person with an "underdog" mentality... if those threads were anything like that to Boogie, I can see him being banned for his own health and a gag order being placed on people who want to keep the flames stoked.

Knowing that's the case, I'll leave it be. I didn't know any of that when I posted the screencap of his tweet. Now I just feel sorry for him.
 

Battlechili

Banned
Oh, Boogie co-opting a situation and making it about him by some weird logic, unsurprising, that brings me back to his handwaving of gender-based harrasement. Lets just not bring this poor guy up anymore.
Is it really all that weird logic to bring up? Kotaku gets blacklisted and complains about it, and he brings up he was blacklisted by Kotaku and that it hurt him when they did that just like it hurts Kotaku. Seems like a logical frame of mind, even if it is drawing attention of an issue to one's self. It seems relevant enough.
 
Well, I never liked people shitting on Phil Fish for being an unstable, bi-polar person who would react to provocation with nuclear bombs. I remember how relentlessly degrading the dogpile threads on him were re: AnnoyedGamer, and feeling the only person rooting for "the underdog"... if those threads were anything like that to Boogie, I can see him being banned for his own health and a gag order being placed on people who want to keep the flames stoked.

Knowing that's the case, I'll leave it be. I didn't know any of that when I posted the screencap of his tweet. Now I just feel sorry for him.

Yeah that's why mods asked us not to bring it up in the GG thread.

It's why I decided to stick to pointing out he got suicidal over the subject, rather than his ... questionable debate antics. It's just a sorta sad situation that's best to gently circle around.
 

LordCiego

Member
Is it really all that weird logic to bring up? Kotaku gets blacklisted and complains about it, and he brings up he was blacklisted by Kotaku and that it hurt him when they did that just like it hurts Kotaku. Seems like a logical frame of mind, even if it is drawing attention of an issue to one's self. It seems relevant enough.

One question, How do you blacklist a youtuber? I dont know, its not the same situation, its not like they have a product you are going to talk about right?
 

JDSN

Banned
Is it really all that weird logic to bring up? Kotaku gets blacklisted and complains about it, and he brings up he was blacklisted by Kotaku and that it hurt him when they did that just like it hurts Kotaku. Seems like a logical frame of mind, even if it is drawing attention of an issue to one's self. It seems relevant enough.
If this is about the Shadow of Mordor thing, which it probably is, its less about "blacklisting" and more "Im not being given a platform to talk shit about a site that pointed out my hypocrisy after I joined a movement that wants to take down that very same site". Its not very relevant and like many things around this character, its not very logical.
 

Battlechili

Banned
One question, How do you blacklist a youtuber? I dont know, its not the same situation, its not like they have a product you are going to talk about right?
I was thinking it was more like him wanting to talk about something they said or something and asking for their input on something and them ignoring it.
I dunno. Probably not the same sort of situation I guess, but youtubers often do reviews and talk about video game news and its possible he needed or wanted to know something about the insides of Kotaku for one of his videos. I suppose that's not quite as extreme as Kotaku being blacklisted by developers....
If this is about the Shadow of Mordor thing, which it probably is, its less about "blacklisting" and more "Im not being given a platform to talk shit about a site that pointed out my hipocrisy after I joined a movement that wants to take down such site". Its not very relevant and like many things around this character, its not very logical.
To the bold: Please don't bring opinionated ideas and politics into this.

As for the rest, is that not similar to companies not wanting Kotaku talking badly about their games? Kotaku not wanting him to talk badly about them, I mean. Although as I said, I suppose its a bit more extreme for developers not wanting a news site to talk about their game, rather than a news site not wanting youtubers to talk about their site. I suppose in that sense he seems to think he has more importance than he really does with regards to the game industry, whilst Kotaku has more grounds to complain. But I don't really wish to speak ill of others, especially not others that have had depression issues in the past.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
Quote the part where I said this. And furthermore, I have argued at great length why a media organization being blacklisted by a corporation is bad.

Monsanato is a biotech company. There is nothing to "blacklist" so I assumed you were suggesting they might cajole journalists or otherwise spike journalists articles. If your comment was literally about journos having access to Monsanato and it's staff then. . .that's just silly and doesn't even work as a comparison.

Kotaku and their readers who care about such things. What you personally view as important isn't relevant.

Other than serving your "need" to know if a publisher is working on a title or not, what was the purpose of the article? Your argument isn't about you being interested in what Kotaku is reporting on, it's about the ethics of Bethesda "punishing" a site for "doing it's job" which suggests that the news story served some purpose beyond infotainment and should not be the basis of any kind of backlash. It clearly wasn't.
 

JDSN

Banned
developers....To the bold: Please don't bring opinionated ideas and politics into this.

As for the rest, is that not similar to companies not wanting Kotaku talking badly about their games? Kotaku not wanting him to talk badly about them, I mean. Although as I said, I suppose its a bit more extreme for developers not wanting a news site to talk about their game, rather than a news site not wanting youtubers to talk about their site.
Its not up to Kotaku to give a microphone to anybody that wants it, its their site, they own it and they can do what they want with it.
Hahaha, ill keep posting my opinión and "polítics" thank you very much, the illusion of neutrality is the a Gamergate thing, not mine.
 
Is it really all that weird logic to bring up? Kotaku gets blacklisted and complains about it, and he brings up he was blacklisted by Kotaku and that it hurt him when they did that just like it hurts Kotaku. Seems like a logical frame of mind, even if it is drawing attention of an issue to one's self. It seems relevant enough.

Not in any kind of press capacity but I've been blacklisted before. It does hurt. I spent a few years helping to lay the groundwork and foundations for some things, that lead to a lot of great opportunities for everyone in my peer and friend circle to have a future in game development. I hit a rough patch in life that took me out of everything for a year-ish, and put me on the street.

When I finally could get back, the gears were still turning, but a couple people who came in later and didn't like me, "took my turf" and made it impossible for me to get back into the momentum of what was happening. Friends just went with it because it was either be loyal to me, or stay the path to success. I lost a lot of friends and got left behind, all over petty, competitive beef, I didn't even know about until years later when people finally told me what went down.

Yeah, it sucks.
 

Battlechili

Banned
Its not up to Kotaku to give a microphone to anybody that wants it, its their site, they own it and they can do what they want with it.
Hahaha, ill keep posting my opinión and "polítics" thank you very much, the illusion of neutrality is the a Gamergate thing, not mine.
Well yeah, but game developers don't really need to provide journalists with information if they don't want to either. Its still upsetting for such groups, as it makes them feel unwelcome, ignored, and cast aside. People aren't always given the time of day, and this sometimes hurts others, much like what's going on with Kotaku now. Although as I said, I don't believe a journalist site being blacklisted by a game dev and a youtuber being blacklisted by a journalist site are quite the same thing, so I suppose it might just be better to drop this.

And I said that because it seemed unimportant to what was being said, and only posed to start argument and upset others. I feel as if its often important for one not to display one's personal views on a controversial if they aren't important to the flow of conversation. Holding a very neutral stance or at least displaying such makes it easier to consider more ideas in conversation while not upsetting people. I wasn't asking much, I just don't like it when it seems like people are being pushy or adding opinions in the middle of facts. You don't have to though, it was more of a request than anything. Please forgive me if I'm coming off as kind of rude though, I don't mean to seem pushy or upset.
 

Ogimachi

Member
It's like anti-spoiler culture gone mad. "Please don't spoil the announcement of the announcement of the date of the announcement of Assassin's Creed 15: This Time it Won't Be Disappointing".
It has nothing to do with spoiler culture. Publishers put a lot of work into how, when and what is announced, and that means money. Sometimes it also takes more than just man-hours, some spend money with CGI, marketing deals, actual ads, etc.
Not to mention the state of the game and the contents of the leak can be pretty damaging if it's something still being tested or outdated.

It is not ethical to disregard all of that and do it for clicks. Anyone with a vague of what it takes to run a business should know how damaging these leaks can be.
 
I understand this has nothing to do with the current conversation at hand but, RE: leaks and the entertainment industry.

I can go on Reddit, right now, literally right now, and read a word for word plot synopsis of the new Star Wars. A movie that will make $2.5B dollars plus. If a shot for shot plot synopsis for fucking STAR WARS is leaked, the fuck does it matter if a gaming news site confirms the existence of a project?

It has nothing to do with spoiler culture. Publishers put a lot of work into how, when and what is announced, and that means money. Sometimes it also takes more than just man-hours, some spend money with CGI, marketing deals, actual ads, etc.
Not to mention the state of the game and the contents of the leak can be pretty damaging if it's something still being tested or outdated.

It is not ethical to disregard all of that and do it for clicks. Anyone with a vague of what it takes to run a business should know how damaging these leaks can be
.

In the tech industry? Sure, maybe. In the entertainment industry? Hell no you want that name out there as fast as humanly possible.
 

BigDes

Member
I was thinking it was more like him wanting to talk about something they said or something and asking for their input on something and them ignoring it.
I dunno. Probably not the same sort of situation I guess, but youtubers often do reviews and talk about video game news and its possible he needed or wanted to know something about the insides of Kotaku for one of his videos. I suppose that's not quite as extreme as Kotaku being blacklisted by developers....To the bold: Please don't bring opinionated ideas and politics into this.

As for the rest, is that not similar to companies not wanting Kotaku talking badly about their games? Kotaku not wanting him to talk badly about them, I mean. Although as I said, I suppose its a bit more extreme for developers not wanting a news site to talk about their game, rather than a news site not wanting youtubers to talk about their site. I suppose in that sense he seems to think he has more importance than he really does with regards to the game industry, whilst Kotaku has more grounds to complain. But I don't really wish to speak ill of others, especially not others that have had depression issues in the past.

Kind of hard not to bring politics into it when blacklisting is inherently a political thing.
 

CamHostage

Member
It's interesting how many are championing leak posting as the realist of "real reporting", and how many others are condemning leakers for spoiling announcements despite it being to their advantage in that they get to know info early...

Fact is, very little of what gets posted up as news on sites is really "news" at all. The Stampers leaving Rare, that was news. Satoru Iwata's death, that was news. But game announcements and/or leaks aren't news in that same way. Somebody breaks the news that AAA Game X is in the works? Over 200 people working in an office somewhere already had known that for two years!

Those people making the game, they chose not to tell anybody because it was their news to tell, and they wanted to tell it when they were ready and excited to. It's their money on the line if the announcement goes poorly or hits too early to crest the hype wave correctly. It's their pride hanging out there if their game is revealed with unprepared material or with leaks that reveal story spoilers. And it's all of their reputations and careers on the line if all 200 of them agree to follow a marketing plan (even if it's some marketing guru with dollar signs in his eyes who's drafting this plan with their creation) but then somebody breaks ranks and spills the news in order to see his leak in headlines...

But at some point, the existence of that game does become "news". So whose news is it? Sometimes it's the maker's news, who get to stand on a stage and show off their work to the world, or send out a press release (through PR) to make the disclosure on their terms. Sometimes it's some magazine or journalist's official news, where a journalist or site has been given the scoop (by PR) or came up with the news and negotiated reveal terms (again through PR, but with a different power play) to break the story on shared terms. And sometimes it's some journalist or blogger's unofficial news, where they did some digging or used (but hopefully not abused) some source to get news on his or her terms.

The reader doesn't really care how he gets his info, and as much as he enjoys a good E3 reveal, he's probably in favor of the unofficial journalist (however he gets the job done) because that one gets him the info first. People can (and do) get hurt in the process, and the journalist championed as the "real reporter" isn't doing it for journalistic integrity, he's doing it for clicks and visibility, but the reader finds out the news as early as possible, for whatever that's worth.

...Since there's not "news" in these news stories, though, there's room for different kinds of journalism. Because journalism isn't just about tracking down the details, it's about telling the story. Maybe writing quality doesn't matter in today's fast-paced, quickly-recycled, hacked-down-to-bulletpoints news cycle, but presentation quality does. "Video or it didn't happen", right? A game announced with no trailer or with some long-winded talking head "developer interview" with no footage is often about as good to us as no game announcement at all.

We want to have it both ways. We want sneak press fucks going out there digging up info, but we want journalists and PR to prep a story right (ideally with the journalists telling the story honestly even though they're entering the PR lair by invite.) And I do believe we used to have it both ways for a while at some point in gaming "journalism". Scoops would be earned, and tabloid leaks would be hacked out; plus big reveals were done by careful and well-managed studios. Everybody would take turns being blackballed, and those who made a habit of it still had other ways of making a living in the press.

I can't put a finger on when that was (maybe that golden era was just in my mind,) but things have since changed. Fewer retail games and the dawn of AAAA mega-blockbusters means that only a handful of stories really are worth chasing. Exponentially more downloadable games and the fallout of game pricing has devalued the middle ground of games that used to keep interest and attract dedicated genre fans. Fewer dedicated press outlets but more news-processing sites and video bloggers has meant not many newsmen chasing the story when it's easier to just regurgitate somebody else's scoop. The rise of internal devblogs and social networks (sometimes honestly social, but often times more an arm of PR) means that the company making the story gets to tell the story, and the press is on the outside begging for scraps. Lack of interest in specialist types of press (Japanese-oriented sites, console-specific sites, female gamer sites, parent gamer sites, indie no-sponsor-dollars sites) has driven everybody towards the middle in order to cover the CoD/GTA games that attract the vast majority of interest. The digital video revolution has meant that stories take longer and more manpower to produce than simple text articles, (plus higher demands of presentation quality from viewers,) making it more necessary than ever to cooperate in order to prep the material. Shifts in the advertising market have made it difficult to look anywhere but the games industry for advertising, making the separation of church and state difficult (and even if a journalist honestly manages that separation, his reputation can still be thrashed by people who think they know how he does his job.) Nobody believes in journalists as being anything other than money-grubbing shills, but nobody wants to pay journalists (even turning off ad-blocker or not quoting entire articles is out of the question) to do the work that we say is so valuable and righteous...

Journalism is screwed in a whole bunch of ways. But in the past, these things used to work themselves out, because it was never as bad as people complained about, and never mattered as much as people (and journalists) held it up to be. (This ain't Edward R Morrow shouting down McCarthy, this is simply news & views on our favorite artform.) Maybe in the present, it's too screwed to work out? Good work is still being done in journalism, both on the official and the tabloid end, but there are certainly issues, maybe circumstances are too far gone to set them all right.
 

Corpekata

Banned
How was Boogie blacklisted by Kotaku? Do they frequently cover youtubers or something?

Boogie has a weird persecution complex about the Gamergate thing. You can see it in action in the original GG thread here in which he accused everyone here of wishing he was dead and how he wished he could die and get it over with already.
 
Boogie is apparently a gamergater and refuses to listen to reason despite diplomatic appeals so not sure his perspectives on this matter are entirely qualified or reasonable.

If we're going to mention the diplomatic appeals that were made to Boogie, then it's only fair to point out the bullying that he endured as well. The poster above me suggested that Boogie was a "weird" persecution complex, but I think Boogie's status as a legitimate victim adds a lot of context to his statements.

I can say with a great deal of conviction that many of the appeals that were made to him out in the open on Reddit, YouTube, and other places were anything but diplomatic. Let's not forget that Boogie's home address was published online and someone even threatened to kill his wife! Obviously, those kinds of threats are neither diplomatic nor reasonable.

This isn't to say there weren't any legitimate attempts at diplomacy, but it would be a miscarriage of justice to create a narrative that suggests that everyone was being super cool with him and he just wouldn't "listen to reason." Perhaps that isn't what you were implying. Either way, if we're going to start talking about a guy who isn't here to defend himself, I figure there's no harm in painting a more complete picture.

My biggest issue with this Kotaku mess right now is that the picture is so incomplete. We haven't even heard Bethesda's or Ubisoft's sides to the story, but many people are already throwing their lot in with Kotaku for some unknown reason. It's not fair for people to forumlate strong opinions (one way or another) without considering the other side of the story. We don't even know the other side of this story. At this juncture, there's no reason why anyone should take Kotaku's statements as face vaule or accept them as absolute truth. In the name of diplomacy, it's always important to look at both sides.
 

Lork

Member
My biggest issue with this Kotaku mess right now is that the picture is so incomplete. We haven't even heard Bethesda's or Ubisoft's sides to the story, but many people are already throwing their lot in with Kotaku for some unknown reason. It's not fair for people to forumlate strong opinions (one way or another) without considering the other side of the story. We don't even know the other side of this story. At this juncture, there's no reason why anyone should take Kotaku's statements as face vaule or accept them as absolute truth. In the name of diplomacy, it's always important to look at both sides.
What exactly are you expecting Bethesda and Ubisoft to say to change everyone's mind? That no blacklisting took place and Kotaku made it all up? The issue is fully self explanatory. There's no "other side" to tell, and you're never going to hear anything about it out of either publisher unless the public outcry becomes large enough for them to consider apologizing and reversing their stance.
 

Maztorre

Member
So you would like Bethesda to start sending Kotaku pre-release review copies, invite them to corporate preview and review events, put them back on the press release mailing list, and invite them to media trained developer meet and greets?

At the very least they should be sending pre-release review copies to all major media outlets, Kotaku included, so that customers have timely reviews from press outlets they trust. Other entertainment industries do not selectively pick and choose which review outlets receive advance copies of books or press screenings of films, in an attempt to make the review side of a publication hostages to the actions of the news side. This is because other entertainment industries do not have a sick obsession with receiving not just favourable coverage, but unanimous favourable coverage from the press.

When these companies tie staff remuneration to metacritic scores, as Bethesda have done, it says everything about their attitude towards criticism and the press in general - a resource to be manipulated at any cost to make a number go up.
 
What exactly are you expecting Bethesda and Ubisoft to say to change everyone's mind? That no blacklisting took place and Kotaku made it all up? The issue is fully self explanatory. There's no "other side" to tell

There IS another side to tell. It's not self explanatory. There are any number of reasons why a company would want to distance themselves from an entity like Kotaku. I'm not expecting Bethesda or Ubisoft to say anything, but the notion that they are automatically the bad guys here because Kotaku said so is absurd! There is NO reason to accept Kotaku's version of what happened as fact.

We are not privy to the specific conversations or agreements that those companies had with Kotaku. Kotaku could very well have acted in bad faith here. Under no circumstances should Kotaku be viewed as an impartial source in a story about Kotaku.
 

mclem

Member
I hate leaks, they're awful.

If I was working on a game Id want to present it to the public when its ready and not when some dumb Kotaku "journalists" think its ready.

So fuck em, honestly.

Like when they leaked the Fallout 4 voice actor documents, spoiling us on the setting and more of the game years before it was even announced.

I agree in spirit, but journalists don't cause leaks in themselves, they just report on them. That's an issue that needs to be dealt with at the source. Blaming the reporter isn't the right approach.

Besides, I just didn't read that report.
 

Jack Videogames

Gold Member
Under no circumstances should Kotaku be viewed as an impartial source in a story about Kotaku.

Some people tend to forget that. There's a reason some GamerGaters went under the "it's about ethics in video game journos" banner. Kotaku is basically a tabloid. It's not like Ubisoft blacklisted, say, EDGE.

Penny Arcade is usually pretty hit-and-miss lately, but in my opinion this time they're onto something.
 

DocSeuss

Member
It's deeply disturbing that blacklisting is a thing at all. Publishers should not be allowed to control publications, period. They don't get to dictate what publications can and cannot do. It just shouldn't happen. It is not in our interest as consumers to support publishers in this behavior.

It's also disturbing, but less surprising, that people are having a hard time realizing that A) this wasn't just leaks (remember this? doesn't make ubisoft look good), and B) this article was posted in response to questions asking why Fallout 4's review was late. Informing us that a blacklist exists and explaining why a review was late is something worth sharing. This isn't "woe is me" or "look how great we are."

People seem to think this is over review copies when it's over a lot more than that. Far worse is that they're not even responding for comment on stuff. Like... as I understand it, they're completely incommunicado. No interviews, no clarifications on stories, nothing. Like, Kotaku can't even ask "hey, so, we heard Clint Hocking is coming back to work for you. Is it true?" Review copies are the least of it, and people acting as if that's the only concern have failed to read the article and/or apply their brains.

And Costia's post is really bad and ignores some pretty basic stuff about what was said (for instance! Kotaku does not publish every little thing that comes there way).

Also, nice to see the whole "i assume kotaku is bad because I don't read it at all and only pay attention when someone links something from five years ago that is silly" effect in full force here.

Has anyone checked to see if Kotaku has been bashing their last two years of releases for what might be retaliatory reasons? I would love to see if there are reviews on Ubi or Bethesda games where the gripes were irrational or unreasonable.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was allowed to write four positive articles about Fallout 3 and one about Assassin's Creed 2 for Kotaku.

So.

There goes your theory.

I have no idea why people continue to quote that as if it was some great statement. Especially with regards to this "Responsible journalists decide what should and what shouldn't be published based on the importance and content of the leaked information. A responsible journalist doesn't just publish every piece of secret information that falls into his hands."

No, a journalist isn't going to just publish every tip that comes across the news desk. Yes, we sit around and discuss the worthiness of a story. But neither of the things Kotaku got blacklisted for fails the basic tests all stories go through. Is it sourced and verifiable? Unless we're just going to call them liars, then yes it was. Does it serve the audience? Well, the entire games journalism industry is based on discussing upcoming games, so yes, it exactly served the audience. So, based on the statement above, the responsible journalist from any walk of life would publish this.

People are getting wrapped up in the "lol it's just games." That is true, but again, you can't pull that card and then pull the "lol games journalists." Which do you want? Bloggers who make fart jokes and rewrite press releases? Or journalists?

Wanted to QFT this.
 

Demoskinos

Member
So lot of great discussion about this from Giantbomb East on the Beastcast this morning.

Really agree with Alex Navarro's stance on this regarding "They just did it for the clicks" which by the way is a hilarious stance to take against them.
 

sonicmj1

Member
Some people tend to forget that. There's a reason some GamerGaters went under the "it's about ethics in video game journos" banner. Kotaku is basically a tabloid. It's not like Ubisoft blacklisted, say, EDGE.

Penny Arcade is usually pretty hit-and-miss lately, but in my opinion this time they're onto something.

But it's not like this is about Kotaku taking someone's interview out of context or something. It's about their interactions with information that PR never had access to.

I'm not saying that they need access to early review copies or something, just that this behavior by PR seems to be based on nothing but spite. It doesn't actually relate to the problem of stopping leaks.
 

jschreier

Member
Not only is that Boogie thing untrue, the thought of us "blacklisting" a youtuber doesn't even make sense. How would that even work? The fact that Stephen publicly responded to him on Twitter is itself proof that this is nonsense.
 

Bust Nak

Member
They're using an economic threat to pressure a journalistic outlet to spike stories and provide more positive coverage. This is not complicated in any way.

You make it sound like they are buying review scores, we are talking about leaking confidential information here.
 

Battlechili

Banned
Penny Arcade is usually pretty hit-and-miss lately, but in my opinion this time they're onto something.
Sorry to go off topic, but is there any reason Penny Arcade's forums are so vehemently anti anime both in the rules and in just posts? I've never understood what was going on there. Looking through threads I feel like I'm missing some sort of context or joke here.
what nonsense is this or are you being sarcastic?
The idea of supporting GG in any capacity turns a lot of people off and make some quick to dislike others. Its understandable why he might react that way to Boogie being a supporter of it, given the history of the movement, even if its a bit of an extreme stance to take.
 

Corpekata

Banned
Sorry to go off topic, but is there any reason Penny Arcade's forums are so vehemently anti anime both in the rules and in just posts? I've never understood what was going on there. Looking through threads I feel like I'm missing some sort of context or joke here.The idea of supporting GG in any capacity turns a lot of people off and make some quick to dislike others. Its understandable, given the history, even if its a bit of an extreme stance to take.

Because they think anime threads get creepy quick, and it's true. Even on GAF some of the anime threads do.

They had a big anime thread IIRC and it got gross a few times, so they stopped allowing it.
 

yurinka

Member
Didn't Kotaku leak Assassin's Creed and Fallout stuff? Maybe that's the reason of why they have been blacklisted. Makes sense that if they fuck the companies they stop sending them free games, invitations to events, interviews, etc.
 
when I used to (more often) release indie games, sometimes I'd never get a response from any website about looking at my game.

when I spoke to some "journos" in person at a meet-up about this, they'd say "well, we don't owe you anything. we don't have to write about it if we don't want to", and I'd say "yeah, fair enough! well, you can play your free copy anyway, hope you enjoy it!".

same applies. Bethesda don't owe them anything. if they don't want to reply to Kotaku's pestering e-mails, and if they don't want to send them free copies of the game - they don't have to. Kotaku have the resource to buy the game themselves, they have the ability to research things themselves, etc...

I'm not sure what they are expecting. If they focused on raising the quality of what they post (it's all very tabloid/buzzfeed/etc... lately) - then maybe they'd be taken more seriously. I don't think it's that they've pissed off these companies - I think it's more that they just post garbage click-baits & viral nonsense 24/7 - they are not a high quality site...
PR departments are now more concerned with working with YouTubers nowadays, anyway.
 

Jack Videogames

Gold Member
Sorry to go off topic, but is there any reason Penny Arcade's forums are so vehemently anti anime both in the rules and in just posts? I've never understood what was going on there.

I didn't even know that was the case. I used to be a big PA fan, but lately it's just... well, boring, most of the time, and I don't like the direction Gabe's art style is taking. I don't think I'm even registered in their community.
 

d9b

Banned
Maybe they think that Kotaku isn't relevant any more and they're not sending stuff to them anymore for that reason. I don't know.
 
Some people tend to forget that. There's a reason some GamerGaters went under the "it's about ethics in video game journos" banner. Kotaku is basically a tabloid. It's not like Ubisoft blacklisted, say, EDGE.

Penny Arcade is usually pretty hit-and-miss lately, but in my opinion this time they're onto something.

This is a really wonky analogy.

First, the Zen parable about the scorpion and the monk has the monk saving the scorpion from drowning out of the goodness of his heart and not minding the stings because he knows it's the scorpion's nature. This... is a really terrible analogy to a AAA publisher corporation and a game news website.

Second, it acts like the publisher and the leaker are the same entity, the monk, which makes the "sting" of publishing into a betrayal. But that's not really true; someone leaking to a site expects it to be published, it's not a surprise twist and breaking of trust. This isn't John Bethesda, CEO of Bethesda, gossiping with Billy Kotaku over the phone about who they have crushes on, only for it to end up on Twitter.

Third, it has to invent a "sting" that's bad enough to make you feel really sorry for this selfless billionaire video game corporation saint. In the stories in question, Kotaku never said BOY THIS UNANNOUNCED GAME HAS PROBLEMS!!!! They presented details from Fallout 4's casting information. The Unity and Syndicate stories didn't criticize the games in question for being unfinished; in fact, they praised "Victory" (Syndicate) for looking really nice despite being unfinished, and in the case of Unity even put up a big bold disclaimer that it was unfinished, would obviously look a lot better in the future, and you shouldn't judge graphics off of the screenshots.

Finally, let's go back to the first panel, where our heroic and tragic martyr corporation is telling this chitinous venomous subhuman journalist all about how mean journalists are incentivized to destroy him. First off, it's amazing that this comic is written by the same people who wrote this one. Second, and more relevant, this again tries to portray this as a one way street. Big publishers are also "incentivized" to do quite a few things.
 

jschreier

Member
This is a really wonky analogy.

First, the Zen parable about the scorpion and the monk has the monk saving the scorpion from drowning out of the goodness of his heart and not minding the stings because he knows it's the scorpion's nature. This... is a really terrible analogy to a AAA publisher corporation and a game news website.

Second, it acts like the publisher and the leaker are the same entity, the monk, which makes the "sting" of publishing into a betrayal. But that's not really true; someone leaking to a site expects it to be published, it's not a surprise twist and breaking of trust. This isn't John Bethesda, CEO of Bethesda, gossiping with Billy Kotaku over the phone about who they have crushes on, only for it to end up on Twitter.

Third, it has to invent a "sting" that's bad enough to make you feel really sorry for this selfless billionaire video game corporation saint. In the stories in question, Kotaku never said BOY THIS UNANNOUNCED GAME HAS PROBLEMS!!!! They presented details from Fallout 4's casting information. The Unity and Syndicate stories didn't criticize the games in question for being unfinished; in fact, they praised "Victory" (Syndicate) for looking really nice despite being unfinished, and in the case of Unity even put up a big bold disclaimer that it was unfinished, would obviously look a lot better in the future, and you shouldn't judge graphics off of the screenshots.

Finally, let's go back to the first panel, where our heroic and tragic martyr corporation is telling this chitinous venomous subhuman journalist all about how mean journalists are incentivized to destroy him. First off, it's amazing that this comic is written by the same people who wrote this one. Second, and more relevant, this again tries to portray this as a one way street. Big publishers are also "incentivized" to do quite a few things.
Good post. Wonder if those last two PA comics were published before they started striking deals to make strips for major video game publishers.
 

kavanf1

Member
I'm going to go with option 3: neither Kotaku nor any of the publishers are "wrong" here. Both are simply protecting their interests.

Kotaku journalists are definitely entitled to report on info that comes to their attention, as long as (a) it falls in line with whatever principles they choose to operate by and (b) they accept that they will be judged on the quality of that information. If both of those requirements are met, and both are clear to their readers, then they can report on what they like with a clear conscience. It will then be up to their readers to determine if what they write is of value.

Likewise, businesses who invest thousands, often millions, into a product, are entitled to protect that product from exposure until they are ready for it to be shared. It's not for us to decide when they should tell us about what they are working on. They don't owe as anything ahead of when they want to tell us, and it's a testament to the lack of maturity in the industry that people feel they need to accede to the whims of a bunch of entitled whingers. If I worked in the industry my response to anyone who wanted to know anything I wasn't prepared to disclose would be a polite "fuck off". Kind of like the way Rockstar do it.

Of course, the companies themselves have a bigger issue, in that many of them leak like sieves and they apparently have very little in the way of controls over their IP. That's something that it's up to them to address, and until they do, if the likes of Kotaku take advantage of their lax controls, then tough luck to the company - it's their own fault.

There's a reason shit like this isn't standard in my industry (IT in banking), and it's because if anyone tries to leak stuff or otherwise disclose unauthorised info, the company would be able to pinpoint exactly who it was and fuck their careers, and possibly their lives (in the event jail time comes into it), up.

The journalism that results from the lack of control in the industry is going to continue until the industry itself decides to address the root cause, which more often than not seems to be its own employees seeming to think they can do what they like with company IP without consequences.
 
They're using an economic threat to pressure a journalistic outlet to spike stories and provide more positive coverage. This is not complicated in any way.

When one company is completely dependent on other companies to make their living, if they choose to piss off those other companies they get what they ask for.

There is nothing whatsoever unethical about saying "You've used me one too many times, so good luck finding your way without us" to what is effectively a parasite-company.

The rest is relevant only if the reason they were cut off is negative coverage. I can see no evidence of that even from Kotaku's side of the story. It appears to me that Kotaku only threw that angle in to try and get sympathy and support on their side...leading me full circle to my earlier comment about Kotaku intentionally painting themselves in the best light.
 
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