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[Veelk]

It's inherently chauvanistic. Sorry, but thems the breaks. It's intertwined with the "white knight" concept. Admittedly my sci-fi/fantasy reading is not wide as it could but I never see this trope applied to female characters, or by women. It only comes from men, usually about a man, written for men.

EDIT: Actually no that's not quite true. It occurs regularly in shoujo manga, because then the girl gets to the be the one that tames the sexual deviant with her pure heart.

And honestly it's just as sexist there.

Wait what? White knight? IOkay, well, now you're switching gears entirely. I mean, he literally saved Fela from a fire and is actively working to comfort and help their local sewer's hobo. Kvothe isn't a 'nice guy' in that sense, he's literally a nice guy, who has done actual good deeds and didn't demand anything of that in return. Those things anybody would be attracted to.

But that's not even the situation for the vast majority of the female characters. Only Fela, Auri, and Mola know about those. Everyone else is just attracted to his hot bod and general charisma. How is that sexist?

You don't even need more fiction for this reference point. There are plenty of women who just want a hot, dashing guy to go and have sex with them. I don't even understand what your trying to get at here, that women don't have sexual desires?

I mean, just fill in this sentence for me here: it's sexist for a guy to have casual sex with other women while pining for one particular one because....?

Edit: To answer your question about this trope being applied to a woman, something like that happens with the love interest in the third book of the Gentlemen Bastard's series. Locke, the main character, pines ONLY for Sabetha, but while Sabetha also loves Locke, she has had sex with other dudes in their time away from each other out of horniness. Neither of them think of it as a big deal.

Edit2: In fact, I'm pretty sure Denna is an example herself. She wants Kvothe, but she has sex with other guys. Often for exploitative purposes sure, but nothing says that she'd save herself for Kvothe otherwise.

 

[Haly]

Wait what? White knight? Okay, well, now you're switching gears entirely. I mean, he literally saved Fela from a fire and is actively working to comfort and help their local sewer's hobo.

Yeah... the hobo that looks like Luna Lovegood. Do you notice how he's always going around saving and getting involved with attractive young women?

 

[Veelk]

Yeah... the hobo that looks like Luna Lovegood. Do you notice how he's always going around saving and getting involved with attractive young women?

Have you notice how everyone without exception is described as attractive through kvothe's eyes? Even old ass Monet has a way with women. Did you also notice how Auri has an attractive face but is also thin and ragged?

But even assuming that was true...so? Whats your point here?

I'm less able to follow your actual point here with every post. Your argument was that Kvothe shouldn't be attractive while simultaneously attracted to one woman in particular.

So I explain that women (and really, people in general) are genuinely attracted to kind people, so it makes sense for a certain selection of people to like him, but Kvothe is also attractive in typical ways as well. How Auri looks, attractive or not, play into that, I have no idea. Are you suggesting that Kvothe wouldn't be kind to her if she were ugly?

 

[Haly]

I'm suggesting Rothfuss is writing a male power fantasy in the character of Kvothe and then covering it up with literary sparkles and tassels to hide its base nature.

Are you suggesting that Kvothe wouldn't be kind to her if she were ugly?

And yeah, this too I guess. Or rather, Rothfuss, if he had to give Kvothe protectorship over a character, wouldn't have written one that was ugly. No Quasimodos for him, no sir.

 

[Veelk]

I'm suggesting Rothfuss is writing a male power fantasy in the character of Kvothe and then covering it up with literary sparkles and tassels to hide its base nature.

And you're justifying that suggestion with reasoning that is less and less coherent.

I'm asking for justification for why something is fanservice. Again, fanservice, or bad fanservice, is usually so because it doesn't fit with the narrative in some way, or is needlessly indulgent. After having established that the series does not spend as much time on sex as people have insinuated, you're regressing to points like "Attractive women are attracted to the attractive guy."

Okay? So? It'd be more out of place if that wasn't happening. I ask again, how do you write an attractive character in a normal situation then? Are writers just not supposed to write attractive people then?

I can agree with you insofar that that I would want to be in Kvothe's situation in regards to his status with women. That's indeed a fantasy. I don't disagree with you insofar as that. However, I also wish I was as good a student, or played an instrument. I also want to be as smart as Frankenstein's monster, or have the idealism of Winston Smith, or the ambition of Avon Barksdale.

At some point, you have to realize that trying to erase all that is desirable in some foolhardy way of trying not to appeal to the base pleasure of things that are inherently enjoyable is a stupid move that would erase a lot of great literature. Awesome things are awesome and can still fulfill significant and intelligent and nuanced purposes while still being awesome. Why shouldn't it be like that with romances as well?

That's why you have to give me more than how being an attractive person that attracts other people is bad writing. I've gone over how this is all based in his character and justified by the circumstances around him. It is, indeed, a fantasy. But you fail to explain to me how it's a detriment to the story.

And yeah, this too I guess. Or rather, Rothfuss, if he had to give Kvothe protectorship over a character, wouldn't have written one that was ugly. No Quasimodos for him, no sir.

Okay, at this point, you're engaging in straight up Ron the Death Eater. That interpretation has no basis in reality whatsoever.

This is far more based in just how Kvothe views the world. At one point, Bast pointed out that all the women in his stories were beautiful, before pointing out that Denna has physical imperfections herself. Kvothe just seems to see attractiveness in everyone, for better or worse, and I vaguely remember a quote from Rothfuss that said he likes to see the world that way too.

 

[Haly]

Again, fanservice, or bad fanservice, is usually so because it doesn't fit with the narrative in some way, or is needlessly indulgent.

These standards are too lax for me. A narrative can be completely cohesive and still fanservice. It is in the nature of the thing, rather than some temporary dissonance. It is when an author indulges in himself.

As for the specifics of why, I can't say, it's just a instinct I built up over time. Some stories pass it, some don't. Some straddle the line, like Gaiman's novels. He shows a lot of self-awareness but that doesn't stop half his books from telling the story about how a nondescript bloke runs into a mystery magic girl who takes him to fairyland.

 

[Veelk]

These standards are too lax for me. A narrative can be completely cohesive and still fanservice. It is in the nature of the thing, rather than some temporary dissonance. It is when an author indulges in himself.

As for the specifics of why, I can't say, it's just a instinct I built up over time. Some stories pass it, some don't. Some straddle the line, like Gaiman's novels. He shows a lot of self-awareness but that doesn't stop half his books from telling the story about how a nondescript bloke runs into a mystery magic girl who takes him to fairyland.

In that case, I challenge you to find a book or even character that doesn't have some pleasant or desirable trait or event occur to them. It doesn't seem possible to me. Every narrative has some thing, an event or trait or anything happen to a character that's something people would naturally want to happen. I've read hundreds of stories, and every single one of them had stuff that I would want to have or have happen, no matter how dark they got. Because it's just flat out unrealistic, no matter how shitty our life is or how sad you are about it, to suck so totally that nothing good ever happened to you.

And if you manage to meet that challenge somehow, the next challenge I do think would actually be impossible: explaining how that's a good character.

 

[Haly]

Sure, every narrative has it. It's just a question of how much, and Kingkiller is too much for me.

I had to reexamine Book of the New Sun recently because I made a similar realization, still, I find it favorable, because of the heights Wolfe achieved with the New Sun.

 

[Veelk]

Sure, every narrative has it. It's just a question of how much, and Kingkiller is too much for me.

I had to reexamine Book of the New Sun recently because I made a similar realization.

All while actually having demonstratively little of it. Little sex, the casual and easily dispelled attraction of background characters, and the attention of a few main characters for reasons that are justified by the narrative, which proceeds to do things that actually aren't conventional power fantasies with it, while also being balanced by negatives like the fact that Felurian is a serial rapist or that the Adem are willing to mutilate him if he steps out of line.

You're hardly the first or only one to jump to this conclusion about the series, but regardless it's demonstrably untrue.

still, I find it favorable, because of the heights Wolfe achieved with the New Sun.

This is why I think you have the wrong mindset here. You've categorically classified positive things as inherently negative in narrative, that the narrative has to fight to succeed despite of, never because of. That's, ah.....well, you're free to think that, but I can't help but think that's probably unhealthy.

 

[Haly]

I don't think you really understand. It's relative, and as I reiterate time and time again, Kingkiller was too much for me. I couldn't really trust Rothfuss's intent. He wasn't jacking off in my face like Earnest Cline, but I could still see him making vigorous movements underneath his bedcover, as it were.

 

[Veelk]

I don't think you really understand. It's relative, and as I reiterate time and time again, Kingkiller was too much for me. I couldn't really trust Rothfuss's intent. He wasn't jacking off in my face like Earnest Cline, but I could still see him making vigorous movements underneath his bedcover.

If that's all your willing to focus on, I don't see what clear communication is being had here. Because I get your point. Like I said, I never denied that it was a fantasy. We weren't arguing whether it was fantasy, just whether it was overly indulgent or harmful to the narrative. I've made my case for why it's not. But it is a fantasy. In fact, I recall a tweet that a girl started having more sex with the guy once she got to the Felurian part of the story that Rothfuss retweeted. Yes, it's supposed to be arousing.

The issue I take is that you seem to classify arousing as inherently bad. The problem when writers indulge in fanservice is when that is ALL that they do. That damages the story. But if it doesn't, then whats the issue?

Why is fanservice bad if it also continues to serve the higher functions of writing the story? That's the crux of the question here. Why is a fantasy inherently bad?

 

[Haly]

it also continues to serve the higher functions of writing the story?

Because it's trivial to do this. It really is. I look for the motive behind the fanservice and I don't trust Rothfuss' motives.

And anyway I don't think much of the story, even before factoring in my problems with Kvothe's love life. It's a middling story that gets worse the more I contemplate on it.

 

[Veelk]

Because it's trivial to do this. It really is. You have to find the motive behind the fanservice and I don't trust Rothfuss' motives.

Well, you're assuming I care much about Rothfuss' motives. I'm examining the work itself. A book isn't a relationship with the author and you shouldn't assume it to be one. Otherwise, you get into a whole string of messes, like assuming you know Rothfuss' intentions. And trust me, there are plenty of books where the excuse is not present or too flimsy to be authentic. It's trivial to come up with a flimsy excuse, sure.

This isn't it. The 'fanservice' is not in your face enough or frequent enough to truly indulgent, and it's justified both by the internal set up of the fiction that grow in proportion to how important the character is (Fela doesn't like kvothe just because he's handsome, but background character X does), but also by the fact that proceeding through it has provided interesting and intellectual proposals that can't be considered to appeal solely to base desires. The Adem having the kind of society it does raises interesting questions. Felurian trying to rape Kvothe gives way to implications about his backstory that he hasn't shared. These things have significant narrative value, unlike many series I could name.

The only way you can say this is if you are looking at nothing else about those segments. Which, yeah, if all you do is focus on the fanservice, by definition, that's all you'll see. But other stuff is there.

And anyway I don't think much of the story, even before factoring in my problems with Kvothe's love life.

That's fine. Despite what it appears, I'm not the biggest fan of the series myself, even if I think it's good. My issue is when people voice their complaints in a version of the story that doesn't exist. I'm fine with you or anyone else not liking KKC, but it's another thing entirely to complain a sin that the series didn't actually commit.

 

[Malyse]

 

[Qvoth]

i really liked the books, it's the inspiration for my current user name
but it's been too long since book 2 and i don't really care about them anymore

 

[Busty]

This is a little puzzling. While Miranda might be a huge fan of fantasy and Sci-fi etc, etc where is the crossover in hiring a man who is better known for musicals?

Is there an audience crossover here that I am not aware of? Did Lionsgate hire him because he's the current flavour of the month?

It might work out great but I'm just not sure I see the connection there.

 

[Ghost]

This is a little puzzling. While Miranda might be a huge fan of fantasy and Sci-fi etc, etc where is the crossover in hiring a man who is better known for musicals?

Is there an audience crossover here that I am not aware of? Did Lionsgate hire him because he's the current flavour of the month?

It might work out great but I'm just not sure I see the connection there.

A song was the start of Kvothe's adventure, there's music throughout and it's described as the most important thing to him, I think in that sense it's a perfect story for Lin-Manuel to be involved in.

 

[Haly]

Oh this should totally be a musical with song and dance numbers.

 

[Lach]

I thought the way music and songs are described in the books would be impossible to bring onto screen. But with Lin-Manuel being involved I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Veelk]

I thought the way music and songs are described in the books would be impossible to bring onto screen. But with Lin-Manuel being involved I'm cautiously optimistic.

Most of them should be fine. They just need to be good enough, the rest will be attached to Kvothe's emotional state, since songs are particularly important to him.

The only exception is the one that is supposed to make everyone break down and cry. I have no idea how they're gonna manage that. I've never cried to a song. Choked up at a few at best.

 

[Busty]

A song was the start of Kvothe's adventure, there's music throughout and it's described as the most important thing to him, I think in that sense it's a perfect story for Lin-Manuel to be involved in.

Fair enough. I'm not familiar with the material so I couldn't see the connection there.

 

[Veelk]

Fair enough. I'm not familiar with the material so I couldn't see the connection there.

The other reason is probably that Patrick Rothfuss and Lin-Manuel Miranda are both complete fanboys of each other. Lin said he took inspiration from his books for one or more of his songs, while Rothfuss couldn't shut up about Hamilton for like a month after he saw it. After that, they routinely praised each other on twitter. So they're both happy to work with each other, I assume.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Rothfuss talks about the deal here:

https://www.twitch.tv/patrickrothfuss/v/104210014

I haven't watched it, because it's fucking 3 hours and 41 minutes, but some people might want more info.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I'm suggesting Rothfuss is writing a male power fantasy in the character of Kvothe and then covering it up with literary sparkles and tassels to hide its base nature.

I have to agree with this. I've only read Name of the Wind but it had to be the most boring and indulgent book I've ever read. The book came off as the power fantasy book for the fedora wearing, neck beard having, euphoric demographic.

 

[Heckler456]

Rothfuss talks about the deal here:

https://www.twitch.tv/patrickrothfuss/v/104210014

I haven't watched it, because it's fucking 3 hours and 41 minutes, but some people might want more info.

This guy loves to meander!

 

[HStallion]

Rothfuss talks about the deal here:

https://www.twitch.tv/patrickrothfuss/v/104210014

I haven't watched it, because it's fucking 3 hours and 41 minutes, but some people might want more info.

No wonder its taking so long to get the next book...

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I have to agree with this. I've only read Name of the Wind but it had to be the most boring and indulgent book I've ever read. The book came off as the power fantasy book for the fedora wearing, neck beard having, euphoric demographic.

Yeah, except he's obviously full of shit about a lot of it.

 

[BrokenFiction]

Lionsgate’s ‘The Kingkiller Chronicle’ TV Series Sets John Rogers As Showrunner

http://deadline.com/2016/12/john-rogers-lionsgate-the-kingkiller-chronicle-showrunner-1201869604/

The Librarians creator John Rogers is set to write the pilot and executive produce Lionsgate’s TV adaptation of the fantasy franchise The Kingkiller Chronicle, working alongside previously announced franchise creative producer and musical mastermind Lin-Manuel Miranda, book trilogy author Pat Rothfuss and producer Robert Lawrence. Jennifer Court, who is head of development at Rogers’ production shingle Kung Fu Monkey, will also serve as executive producer.

Rogers co-created and showran the long-running TNT series Leverage before creating and running the network’s adventure series The Librarians, currently in its third season; as well as creating and executive producing last season’s NBC series The Player. Rogers is currently writing the Magnum P.I. sequel series project for ABC, which he is executive producing through Kung Fu Monkey alongside Eva Longoria’s UnbeliEVAable Entertainment. Rogers’ feature credits include Transformers, American Outlaws and Catwoman. He is repped by CAA, Thruline Entertainment and Jackoway Tyerman.