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[bonesmccoy]

120 innocent blacks killed in reprisals? I assume that figure is a deeply conservative estimate.

 

[Like the hat?]

Nat Turner (October 2, 1800 – November 11, 1831) was an enslaved African American who led a rebellion of slaves and free blacks in Southampton County, Virginia on August 21, 1831. The rebels went from plantation to plantation, gathering horses and guns, freeing other slaves along the way, and recruiting other blacks who wanted to join their revolt. During the rebellion, Virginia legislators targeted free blacks with a colonization bill, which allocated new funding to remove them, and a police bill that denied free blacks trials by jury and made any free blacks convicted of a crime subject to sale and relocation.[1] The rebellion resulted in the deaths of 55 to 65 white people. Whites organized militias and called out regular troops to suppress the uprising. In addition, white militias and mobs attacked blacks in the area, killing an estimated 120,[2][3] many of whom were not involved in the revolt.[4]


In the aftermath, the state quickly arrested and executed 55 blacks accused of being part of Turner's slave rebellion. Turner hid successfully for two months. When found, he was tried, convicted, sentenced to death, and hanged

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner

Even in a violent uprising more uninvolved blacks ended up getting killed by whites than involved whites by blacks

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

He's on federal currency and the mere idea of a Black female abolitionist sharing that legal tender with him sent White people into a frenzy.

It just feels to me that any earnest effort to actually grapple with the legacies of celebrated, but problematic people like Thomas Jefferson gets muddled when you go for this.

Might feel good to have something that "triggers" these all lives matter cretins, but does it really help you in the long run?

 

[geomon]

His actions lead to a lot deaths including babies.

I'm indifferent about whether statue should be devoted to him.

Same.

 

[The Faceless Master]

It just feels to me that any earnest effort to actually grapple with the legacies of celebrated, but problematic people like Thomas Jefferson gets muddled when you go for this.

Might feel good to have something that "triggers" these all lives matter cretins, but does it really help you in the long run?

short of the mass deaths of all racists, nothing helps.

there is nothing that can be done to appease to racists.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Regarding Lauranett Lee's argument against Turner, she has an entirely valid viewpoint, but I don't think it's a problem to include Turner in the memorial. Just as one shouldn't turn a blind eye to the flaws of white historical figures, the more unpleasant aspects of Turner's revolt shouldn't be ignored. However, the US celebrates quite a few white historical figures with statues who have some significant flaws in addition to their contributions. While rebellions (including, hell, the American Revolution) are always messy, I think it's fair to acknowledge the bravery of what Turner did without taking this as a justification for everything that flowed from it.

I think the bigger argument is what OP quoted at the end: "Ultimately, what did Nat Turner's actions do?"

They caused reprisals against probably innocent people, they made life for slaves in Virginia even worse... and that's about it, honestly. There's a reason why the Nat Turner biopic had to go ridiculous with its "young boy watches Turner die, becomes a colored infantryman in the civil war" ending, because there's no real connection between Turner's slave rebellion and the ultimate emancipation of the slaves. I think you can argue the same thing for Gabriel, honestly, unless you're trying to turn them into some sort of embodiment of freedom, which I'm not sure works either. Even with their stated goals with the monument of the symbolic slaves and then the pre and post-emancipation figures on it, I'm not sure I get where he fits.

Compared to the others they picked:

In addition to Gabriel and Turner, the other pre-emancipation honorees chosen Wednesday are Mary Elizabeth Bowser, a pro-Union spy who passed secrets from inside the Confederate White House; Dred Scott, a Virginia-born slave who sued for his freedom and sparked the infamous U.S. Supreme Court decision that found African-Americans were not citizens in the eyes of the law; and William Harvey Carney, a Norfolk native who was purchased out of slavery and fought in the first black military unit organized in the North.

I don't think he fits.

I'm glad the other lesser-known and local civil rights era pioneers are getting their due, though. All those picks seemed sensible.

120 innocent blacks killed in reprisals? I assume that figure is a deeply conservative estimate.

You don't exactly want people willy-nilly killing beings that you consider property. While it's possible the numbers are underreported, I've never seen scholarship that claims as much with any evidence to back it up.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

short of the mass deaths of all racists, nothing helps.

there is nothing that can be done to appease to racists.

Curious, how do you define racist? What's the spectrum we're working with here?

 

[theignoramus]

It just feels to me that any earnest effort to actually grapple with the legacies of celebrated, but problematic people like Thomas Jefferson gets muddled when you go for this.

Might feel good to have something that "triggers" these all lives matter cretins, but does it really help you in the long run?

Yes. The only thing those types of people respect is the law of reciprocity. There may be higher honor in espousing New Tesament values of forgiveness and taking the higher road, but the only thing the American White supremacist has ever responded to has been brute force and fear of physical repercussion.
Some people just need to see the wrong side of a rifle barrel so that the consequences of the evil of their ways feels deeply intimate and personal.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Living in Richmond, there were idiots yelling to take down Maggie Walker's statue and as soon as taking down Confederate Statues is in the menu they attack the Arthur Ashe and Bojangles statues as well. I can't wait to see their reaction after hearing this

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Hear that? That's the sound of conservatives being triggered

Start the clock in it being defaced

-1 to 1 for it having "fucking nikka"
2 to 1 for it having a noose on it

 

[IrishNinja]

couldn't think of a finer person to have a statue on, good on em

been sleeping on this copy of confessions of nat turner too long now, think ill celebrate with it

 

[neoanarch]

The Caribbean says "welcome to the party" More monuments like these need to be erected

Can Mexico get in on that party?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_Yanga


Edit oh shit he's actually in there. Carry on.

 

[kamineko]

Sounds good to me

& I thought you HAD to kill people in America to get a statue, why is Nat Turner where the line gets drawn

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

Triggered.
Cuckkkd

 

[Lyon N. Laap]

Start the clock in it being defaced

-1 to 1 for it having "fucking nikka"
2 to 1 for it having a moose on it

Don't worry. The police will certainly be quick to throw the book at any people who deface the monument.

Right...?

 

[Sean C]

I think the bigger argument is what OP quoted at the end: "Ultimately, what did Nat Turner's actions do?"

They caused reprisals against probably innocent people, they made life for slaves in Virginia even worse... and that's about it, honestly. There's a reason why the Nat Turner biopic had to go ridiculous with its "young boy watches Turner die, becomes a colored infantryman in the civil war" ending, because there's no real connection between Turner's slave rebellion and the ultimate emancipation of the slaves. I think you can argue the same thing for Gabriel, honestly, unless you're trying to turn them into some sort of embodiment of freedom, which I'm not sure works either. Even with their stated goals with the monument of the symbolic slaves and then the pre and post-emancipation figures on it, I'm not sure I get where he fits.

I don't think you need to be able to draw a clear line from Turner's actions to some greater positive outcome. Plenty of celebrated figures in history, particularly resistance figures, don't meet that test.

To reach way back, Boudica is a heroine and symbol of English nationalism for resisting Roman imperialism, even though in the end she was crushingly defeated and her people absorbed into the empire. Her revolt didn't achieve anything in the long-term. She's admired for fighting for her people. Admiration of Turner is much the same.

 

[A Black Falcon]

When the Confederate statues controversy came up, I thought that one potentially good idea was having more memorials for the victims of slavery, instead of only the perpetrators as is mostly true now, because pretending bad things didn't happen does not solve the problems their legacy brings, it just continues to hide lingering wounds, which ultimately does no good. You need to face both the good and bad sides of your nation.

So, here is a statue that's going to go up which is pretty much exactly that. So yeah, putting up this statue is a good idea. Nat Turner is deserving of controversy (killing civilians is not right), but if you're going to have statues of slaveowners, it's definitely right to also have one of someone who fought back against them!

 

[Derwind]

This is great news.

 

[ElMexiMerican]

Yes America, this is the history that should be getting remembered.

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

Here's hoping we get statues of Harriet Tubman in all the confederate states.

 

[Shauni]

Yes America, this is the history that should be getting remembered.

Uh, all the history should be remembered. We just don't need statues to traitors to remember any of it

 

[ElMexiMerican]

Uh, all the history should be remembered. We just don't need statues to traitors to remember any of it

Yes, misworded what I was trying to say.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

He led a doomed slave rebellion that included killing children and ultimately resulted in massive reprisals?


People love Spartacus, so...

 

[PatThePassive]

couldn't think of a finer person to have a statue on, good on em

been sleeping on this copy of confessions of nat turner too long now, think ill celebrate with it

Yes, the movie was "Birth of a Nation (2016)."

I like the ending of the film were the young slave who backed down from Nats rebellion after they first killings but the rebellion had an impact on him and later he had the courage to fight in the civil war.

The real rebellion was more grim then the movie.

I would say Douglass statues everywhere

 

[Gaius Cassius]

I'd love to see a few statues of John Brown and the ex slaves that revolted under him. Doubt that will ever happen. White people see him as worse than Turner, as a traitor to whites.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

Awesome, well deserved.

The guy looks like a total badass.

 

[Derwind]

He led a doomed slave rebellion that included killing children and ultimately resulted in massive reprisals?


People love Spartacus, so...

During a period of time that had black children abused & murdered as a tradition, your point kind of falls flat.

And the burden of blame for the massive reprisals goes directly to the slave owning society bred by white supremacy in America. Not towards those fighting against their enslavement.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

He led a doomed slave rebellion that included killing children and ultimately resulted in massive reprisals?


People love Spartacus, so...

Do you really want to go down this road?

 

[PatThePassive]

Awesome, well deserved.



The guy looks like a total badass.

He was

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/oration-in-memory-of-abraham-lincoln/

 

[shintoki]

He led a doomed slave rebellion that included killing children and ultimately resulted in massive reprisals?


People love Spartacus, so...

Spartacus is actually a very apt comparison.

 

[Akainu]

Can we get a statue of colonel tye?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Can't unsee Terry Crews' ancestor lol

 

[Lord Morairty007]

Spartacus is actually a very apt comparison.

Spartacus was a heroic criminal at best. His ego got his followers killed.

John Brown is the best example but another example who is comparable is Toussaint Louverture of Hati.

Toussaint Louverture is a better example and a guy who did accomplish his goal for the better of the inhabitants of Hati.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

During a period of time that had black children abused & murdered as a tradition, your point kind of falls flat.

And the burden of blame for the massive reprisals goes directly to the slave owning society bred by white supremacy in America. Not towards those fighting against their enslavement.

Do you really want to go down this road?

The fuck are y'all on about?

Spartacus did the same shit as Nat and he is a viewed as a hero all around the world. So the drawbacks to Nat Turner's inclusion shouldn't be any more disqualifying than they are for Spartacus.

How could you possibly misconstrue what I wrote?

Like, what are you even imagining?

 

[OG Shaka Zulu]

I'd love to see a few statues of John Brown and the ex slaves that revolted under him. Doubt that will ever happen. White people see him as worse than Turner, as a traitor to whites.

John Brown is a top 3 GOAT white person.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Nat Turner (October 2, 1800 – November 11, 1831) was an enslaved African American who led a rebellion of slaves and free blacks in Southampton County, Virginia on August 21, 1831. The rebels went from plantation to plantation, gathering horses and guns, freeing other slaves along the way, and recruiting other blacks who wanted to join their revolt. During the rebellion, Virginia legislators targeted free blacks with a colonization bill, which allocated new funding to remove them, and a police bill that denied free blacks trials by jury and made any free blacks convicted of a crime subject to sale and relocation.[1] The rebellion resulted in the deaths of 55 to 65 white people. Whites organized militias and called out regular troops to suppress the uprising. In addition, white militias and mobs attacked blacks in the area, killing an estimated 120,[2][3] many of whom were not involved in the revolt.[4]


In the aftermath, the state quickly arrested and executed 55 blacks accused of being part of Turner's slave rebellion. Turner hid successfully for two months. When found, he was tried, convicted, sentenced to death, and hanged

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner

Good thing before all of this they were immortal slaves

 

[PInk Tape]

That's awesome.

 

[Transhuman]

"We have two people who have spoken against having Nat Turner on the monument," Lee said. "Ultimately, what did Nat Turner's actions do?"

He's an important figure.

I mean, there are Anne Frank Statues in Germany, and she didn't exactly prevent the Holocaust or anything. Why can't the statue just exist in remembrance to a rebellion?

 

[ScaryShark]

https://www.aoc.gov/art/other-statues/frederick-douglass

 

[televator]

"Bu-but if we take down all the statues of all the enslaving bigots in history, who else could we possibly make a statue of?"

 

[Matt]

What an incredibly complicated question that deserves proper consideration and debate. And it seems like that happened in this case, so that’s good to see.

 

[sir_kevith]

John Brown is a top 3 GOAT white person.

His portrait is bad ass too. You start growing hair like this, it means you're 100% dedicated to your cause.