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[Cranster]

Yes because we all know that the primary spot was deemed hers to begin with. How dare someone more popular challenge her and the DNC?!

Anyways, she's just fueling Trump with this shit. She needs to stop.

If He was more popular then explain why he had millions less votes than her?!

 

[TwoDurans]

Hillary was a great politician, but a terrible showman. She didn't use catchy soundbites, and instead wanted the american people to understand what was going on instead of making empty promises like Bernie and Trump did.

As a Clinton supporter (still today) I believe her mistake was that listening to her talk was like the "Eat Your Vegitables Hour with Gramma Hil" and and average uneducated middle american voter doesn't react well to that. Which is why she was always called an elitist. This country is terrified of smart people, or at least enraged by them. If someone seems smarter than you, it's taken as a personal attack and that's really sad.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

That's the thing too. We're not promising new untested things, we're trying to play catch-up to the rest of the Western world (you know, where they have those things we're trying to get) but apparently that's just "pie in the sky"

That's the worst part.

"SINGLE PAYER? THAT'S CRAZY. HOW ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR IT? THAT'S LIKE ASKING FOR A FREE PONY."

I dunno, Hillary. The same way every one else pays for it?

 

[Suikoguy]

"I'm not a racist I just vote for them." Isn't an excuse

EVERY Trump voter is racist.

At the least, every current trump supporter is racist to some degree. You can't explain away or ignore the events of the last few months.

 

[pigeon]

Don't act like voting a straight ticket isn't a habit. The primaries were watched by between 5 and 15 million people.

That's, at best, 50 million people less than the # that voted.

You are postulating an astonishingly high number of extremely uninformed people.

I give the American people more credit than that. I assume they voted for the things they wanted. I have yet to encounter a Trump voter, anywhere, who says "oh, man, I didn't know what Donald Trump stood for."

But sure, let's assume you're right and a huge number of people voted for a white supremacist by accident. Let's just ignore the manifest failure of democracy you're suggesting occurred.

If this is true, then presumably these masses of people already know they accidentally voted for a Nazi, and presumably they didn't actually want to vote for a Nazi.

Wouldn't they feel, I dunno, kind of bad about that? Wouldn't they be doing something about it? Speaking out? Disavowing Trump? Donating to Democratic candidates? Wouldn't they, you know, understand why people think they're racist, since they voted for a Nazi?

If any of these people exist -- I think the number is pretty small -- I'm happy to forgive them when they demonstrate their willingness to fight the Nazi they empowered.

Up until then I think it's safe to assume they own him and they like owning him.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

That's the thing too. We're not promising new untested things, we're trying to play catch-up to the rest of the Western world (you know, where they have those things we're trying to get) but apparently that's just "pie in the sky"

It is pie in the sky when you have a majority of elected offices held by a party that is deadest against those ideals that you want to be incorporated. Why are you guys deflecting past that major hurdle, rather excuse me, impassable obstruction?

I'm not even talking Congress here, look at state and local office. It is overwhelming. You aren't going to get this stuff through overnight guys. That isn't the way this works.

 

[Shy Fingers]

So Hillary thinks Healthcare for everyone is the same as a pony? I'll save my choice words since I don't feel like getting a ban over Hillary.

I just.. what? Does the name Hillary come up and people just shut off their brains and rage or what?

 

[Fenderputty]

Maybe stop whining when you couldn't be bothered to campaign outside of NY.

These posts make me wish she writes another 10 books shitting on Bernie and the far far left

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

If He was more popular then explain why he had millions less votes than her?!

For all the hum drumming back and forth we're doing (and most of us here aren't Trump supporters).

The entire system was rigged against her anyway.

I'm actually going to drop my argument here, because it is 100% invalid once you consider that the entire American political system is a fraud.

 

[pigeon]

If we're talking about actual elections and the vast majority of the electorate, I'd mostly agree. As far as Democratic Party inside baseball goes, I really don't believe that's true.

What ideological debate do you believe exists?

 

[HariKari]

Hillary was a great politician

Considering how badly she fumbled all of her advantages over the years... no.

 

[JABEE]

I always find it funny that the argument was simultaneously "you have no idea how to pay for something like Medicare For All" and also "your middle class tax-raises that would pay for Medicare For All would scare off everyone!". Which is it?

I often find "it's impossible" arguments to be more often an argument from cynicism anyway, rather than an actual impossibility. It's more a "corporate and other political interests are too damn strong, so there's no point in even fighting them, and this is all we can get" approach. So that's how you get all the "well, maybe we can just tweak the ACA every once in a while and hopefully turn into Switzerland one day" takes. Those same takes also presuppose that Republicans would be open to that approach, which is weird, considering they didn't even vote for the already compromised, relatively corporate-friendly ACA.

Another thing I'd argue that the whole point of something like a presidential campaign is to articulate a vision for what/where you want the country to be. If you compromise during the actual legislative process, that's one thing (especially if you can at least clearly show you were fighting for something more before compromising, unlike Obama for example), but what's the point of compromising when you're trying to GOTV? Who are you compromising with at that point? The point of putting Medicare For All in a platform is that it's a policy that perfectly communicates your vision of "health care should be a right, and no one should ever go broke paying medical bills". And it's an obviously doable policy (not easy, but it's obviously doable, since it literally already exists in other countries). It's not in your platform because you think it'll get instantly passed in your first year of office.

I've seen arguments that candidates should continue to take mass amounts of corporate money because there's no point in handcuffing yourself, yet will turn around and limit themselves to arbitrary notions of "realism" when it comes to any sort of major progressive policy. Even though this kind of "realism" is the kind that often says spending trillions of dollars on war is rational because "something has to be done", while spending trillions of dollars on guaranteeing health care is "irrational" and similar to wanting "ponies". Meaning, not actually "realism" at all, but simply different priorities and agendas by various interests.

Agree with basically all your points. It's extremely frustrating seeing these arguments and talking points.

 

[Eidan]

donna brazile
debbie wasserman schultz


do you know who they are?

Donna Brazile, a former CNN pundit and political insider who told the Clinton campaign that she'd be asked about Flint water issues in a debate in Flint. A real game changer.

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is Florida congresswoman who used to be the chair of the DNC. She did ??? which caused Bernie Sanders to lose the primary. No one seems to be quite sure what mechanisms she used to make Bernie lose the southern black vote, but it was both powerful and insidious.

 

[Foffy]

So Hillary thinks Healthcare for everyone is the same as a pony? I'll save my choice words since I don't feel like getting a ban over Hillary.

That's the thing that gets me with her remark. If you look at nuance, it almost comes off as she's normalizing things Bernie was trying to challenge.

The "we're not Denmark" line came off more like normalizing the American health care cartel problem and less of a "we need to work with what we have here," primarily in regards to the "anchor of progress" being the GOP. You could make a similar case and highlight the similar political monster that's an obstacle with the minimum wage, as both of these seem like two of the "largest" things Clinton and Sanders weren't in lockstep with regarding reformations and goals.

 

[SaviourMK2]

All Racists voted for Trump, but not everyone who voted for Trump is racist.

Maybe but they did something far worse, they enabled Racists. It's like ignoring your children who is screaming and throwing boxes of cereal because he wants the one you don't wanna buy.

 

[Father_Brain]

i think that's largely a symptom of the fact that centrism in 2017 is pathetic as a counterweight to the right wing and cruel in its own right. democrats who love the ACA but won't stand for single payer are essentially saying that 50 million uninsured people is bad but 20 million is just fine, which is incoherent on top of being morally disgusting.

and so the way these people define themselves isn't by policy so much as it is personality.

A lot of the prominent center-left media and think tank types have founded their personal brands on the notion that they are "voices of the progressive left" or "the Democratic wing of the Democratic party," and have become so invested in maintaining those brands that they effectively can't process the existence of any politics to the left of their own save by smearing it as a lunatic fringe. Moulitsas is a pretty good example of this.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Because, despite Donald Trump's wishes, the presidency is not a position of absolute power or godhood. You have to get the Congress to agree to shit before it gets done, and you have to pay for it.

You are literally pulling a "Hillary hates ponies" right now.

It's almost as if spending an entire primary saying you oppose single payer or Medicare for all/ a public options leads people to believe you don't like that policy idea or something. It's bizarre I know.

She offered no alternative that made her perscription drugs price controlling measures and other moderate ACA changes more possible with a republican house

Bernie's "millions of people marching in the streets!" Proposal to build the momentum for a better solution to healthcare, while crazy and totally wouldn't work, is probably a few percentage points more possible than Paul Ryan holding a vote to make improvements to the ACA just because it's not an extreme idea

 

[Cipherr]

Can anyone popping into this thread to go "haha, true!" to the pony excerpt stop on their way out and explain to me what's so true about treating wanting health insurance or lower tuitiation like it's a stupid childhood fantasy?

Just thinking about this is making me angry.

Its making you angry because you are transforming it into a logical fallacy.

You are pretending like you want health insurance for everyone and I don't.

You are pretending that you want lower tuition and I don't.

Its funny because they LITERALLY OUTLINE this in the books quote in the line where she states "Actually I like Ponies too!".

In these scenarios everyone wants the same thing as you. The literal only disagreement is how quickly we can achieve it and fund it. But in order to try and win the nom his team continuously pretended there was this huge gap in his beliefs and hers even though there clearly wasn't. The reality of the scenario is more like this:

Me: I want lower tuition.
You: So do I..... Actually, you know what I want completely free tuition.

Me: That's going to be harder to achieve but I can see that as a goal too.
You: Then I want to pay people to pursue education beyond highschool instead.

Me: That's going to make it exponentially harder to achieve. It's a great goal, but it might be better to pursue it incrementally instead of going for that goal straight from the hip man.
You: I don't understand why you don't want to solve the clear problem that is tuition in this country.

It's basically a game. Push the bar out even to points beyond the horizon, and to points not legislatively possible even.. ANYTHING to distance yourself from me so you can stand out. You want to beat me in the primary, and clearly don't feel you can do so if we almost appear as having completely inline beliefs on every level.

The books quote is very obvious about this, but you are ignoring the point here and getting outraged about ponies. Would it be better if we substituted it with the minimum wage thing of $12 vs $15?.

I always find it funny that the argument was simultaneously "you have no idea how to pay for something like Medicare For All" and also "your middle class tax-raises that would pay for Medicare For All would scare off everyone!". Which is it?

This is easy. Its both. It seems like you don't really want to face that, but reality doesn't care.

You know what else is possible if we ignore reality? UBI across the entire country. Sure we need to cut our obscene military budget, tax the holy hell out of 80% of the voting electorate and more, but sure... it could probably actually be achieved if you did that.

When someone asks a politician how they plan to achieve something, believe it or not they are assuming the politician understand that the answer is going to be something realistically achievable in the current or upcoming political climate. Not an answer that relies on some utopian dream of a nation that doesn't actually exist in the real world.

Hillary was a great politician, but a terrible showman. She didn't use catchy soundbites, and instead wanted the american people to understand what was going on

True. I learned this big time this past election. I already knew it to some degree. But holy HELL do people prefer flash over substance. Even if a lot of that flash is just nonsense that won't come to pass; people love a little bedside manner... Even if its all fucking lies.

This frustrates me, but there's nothing I can do about it. I absolutely loved her reasoned and levelheaded "take your medicine" approach. I can't do anything with demagoguery.

 

[gutter_trash]

Hillary was a great politician, but a terrible showman. She didn't use catchy soundbites, and instead wanted the american people to understand what was going on instead of making empty promises like Bernie and Trump did.

As a Clinton supporter (still today) I believe her mistake was that listening to her talk was like the "Eat Your Vegitables Hour with Gramma Hil" and and average uneducated middle american voter doesn't react well to that. Which is why she was always called an elitist. This country is terrified of smart people, or at least enraged by them. If someone seems smarter than you, it's taken as a personal attack and that's really sad.

Sad but true.

As a statesman, she would have been an excellent President.

But Americans need a show when it comes to campaigning and stupid popularity contests.

 

[NullPointer]

At the least, every current trump supporter is racist to some degree. You can't explain away or ignore the events of the last few months.

You can, and they do. They have one major 24 hour news channel dedicated to helping that effort, along with all kinds of internet and radio partisans and swampgas sites to keep that meme complex fully stocked with counter-narratives.

 

[TwoDurans]

Considering how badly she fumbled all of her advantages over the years... no.

Did you read the rest of my post, or were you distracted by a bumblebee?

 

[kirblar]

That's the worst part.

"SINGLE PAYER? THAT'S CRAZY. HOW ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR IT? THAT'S LIKE ASKING FOR A FREE PONY."

I dunno, Hillary. The same way every one else pays for it?

Most western countries don't have single-payer systems. A multi-payer system similar to Germany/France/Switzerland is a much better model for where to take the US's system than something like the UK due to the degree of existing private infrastructure.

You do know what NAFTA enabled, right?

Yes, but it was coming with or without NAFTA. It just accelerated things. The hit to those regions was always going to come.

 

[Steeped in a Sea of Games]

This thread is already about to overtake the daca one in posts. Pretty fucked up guys. You gotta let it go. You're actively contributing to our continued swirling around the drain.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

I just.. what? Does the name Hillary come up and people just shut off their brains and rage or what?

Do I need to quote the little lol facebook so funny hillary! shit from the book? You know where she retweets in her book a funny analogy from fackbook with ponies.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

The problem with (person) is that even when (pronoun) is right the people who agree with (pronoun) are embarrassingly wrong

I agree, strongly.

 

[Fenderputty]

for fucks sake the DNC was in cahoots with Hillary's team. Is that in the book? She needs to go away.

The only downside to Hillary making comments about Bernie is I have to read this type of garbage

 

[Henchmen21]

It is pie in the sky when you have a majority of elected offices held by a party that is deadest against those ideals that you want to be incorporated. Why are you guys deflecting past that major hurdle, rather excuse me, impassable obstruction?

I'm not even talking Congress here, look at state and local office. It is overwhelming. You aren't going to get this stuff through overnight guys. That isn't the way this works.

Yes because all those other countries DON'T have opposition parties that were dead set against it too. They still got it passed because they fought for it.

 

[Aselith]

Hillary was a great politician, but a terrible showman. She didn't use catchy soundbites, and instead wanted the american people to understand what was going on instead of making empty promises like Bernie and Trump did.

As a Clinton supporter (still today) I believe her mistake was that listening to her talk was like the "Eat Your Vegitables Hour with Gramma Hil" and and average uneducated middle american voter doesn't react well to that. Which is why she was always called an elitist. This country is terrified of smart people, or at least enraged by them. If someone seems smarter than you, it's taken as a personal attack and that's really sad.

Yeah, Obama's great strength is he can give information Hillary like Hillary but also be chill about it and make people want to pay attention. He knew the right mix of being informative and making you feel like it applies to you personally.

 

[illmatic22]

Poor HiLLdog

 

[HariKari]

Did you read the rest of my post, or were you distracted by a bumblebee?

"Hillary is too smart for America"

Which is why she consistently made the same mistakes when running campaigns? She couldn't keep the basics in order. That makes her a great politician? I think you mean to say she's a thinker or a policy wonk. A smart politician knows how to play the field. She's married to one. She, herself, is a moron when it comes to handling things like campaigns, which is a huge part of why she lost and why we're all dealing with Trump right now.

 

[DrForester]

Keep thinking this and you'll never see another Democrat in the White House.

Why? Or every pathetic fucking racist who voted for Trump will continue to say "don't calls us racists just because we vote for racists, or we'll keep voting for racists."?

Republicans want to not be called racists, they can stop voting for racists. Until then, they are racists. They vote for racists. They support the agenda of racists.

 

[Father_Brain]

What ideological debate do you believe exists?

Over health care, job creation, Wall Street, the size of the minimum wage? Are these not debates over ideology?

 

[G.ZZZ]

imagine what she would think if she ran against the 2008 Clinton campaign instead of Bernie, who honestly was very mild in his attacks

This.

This shouldn't even still be an issue. We lost, move on. Jesus christ we still on this.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

You are postulating an astonishingly high number of extremely uninformed people.

I give the American people more credit than that. I assume they voted for the things they wanted. I have yet to encounter a Trump voter, anywhere, who says "oh, man, I didn't know what Donald Trump stood for."

But sure, let's assume you're right and a huge number of people voted for a white supremacist by accident. Let's just ignore the manifest failure of democracy you're suggesting occurred.

If this is true, then presumably these masses of people already know they accidentally voted for a Nazi, and presumably they didn't actually want to vote for a Nazi.

Wouldn't they feel, I dunno, kind of bad about that? Wouldn't they be doing something about it? Speaking out? Disavowing Trump? Donating to Democratic candidates? Wouldn't they, you know, understand why people think they're racist, since they voted for a Nazi?

If any of these people exist -- I think the number is pretty small -- I'm happy to forgive them when they demonstrate their willingness to fight the Nazi they empowered.

Up until then I think it's safe to assume they own him and they like owning him.

These are people who don't care about or follow the political process enough to do more than vote party line.

They're a smaller % than people who don't care about or follow the political process enough to to even vote.



You said it yourself:

the manifest failure of democracy you're suggesting occurred.

It's not a suggestion. Democracy in general is a sham.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Dear Hillary,

We all understand that we won't get a pony right away. Almost nobody doesn't get that, actually.

But if you like ponies, say that. Be honest about your love of ponies, without equivocation or handwringing. Then when the other side refuses to let us have a pony—which is really what the unviability of ponies comes down to, in the end—you can pin the lack of pony on them.

There will plenty of time for listing the reasons we don't have a pony yet once we're in power. But you may never get in power if you won't admit you like and want ponies in the first place.

Tortured analogies aside, have you heard the one about campaigning in poetry?

I am writing to you from the dark timeline; I hope this message reaches you in time.

Peace,
SA

 

[moondoggerr]

If I wanted the National Committee of a political party to treat me as they treated the front runner candidate, the first thing I would do is join the party.


I always wondered why Bernie never did that.

 

[TwoDurans]

"Hillary is too smart for America"

Which is why she consistently made the same mistakes when running campaigns? She couldn't keep the basics in order. That makes her a great politician? I think you mean to say she's a thinker or a policy wonk. A smart politician knows how to play the field. She's married to one. She, herself, is a moron when it comes to handling things like campaigns, which is a huge part of why she lost and why we're all dealing with Trump right now.

Thank you for proving my point. It's not that she's too smart for America, it's that she was smart but didn't know how to convey it in a flashy simple manner for the american public and was written off as an elitist because of it.

 

[broncobuster]

I just.. what? Does the name Hillary come up and people just shut off their brains and rage or what?

More or less.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Why? Or every pathetic fucking racist who voted for Trump will continue to say "don't calls us racists just because we vote for racists, or we'll keep voting for racists."?

Republicans want to not be called racists, they can stop voting for racists. Until then, they are racists. They vote for racists. They support the agenda of racists.

Yes, if you don't understand political trends and instead just react in easily consumable 140 characters or less sound bytes instead of building a political platform, you're going to continue to lose, and you're just going to keep putting racists in power.


All of those gay and minority Americans who voted for Trump because they couldn't deal with another Clinton Presidency... I dunno. I guess they're homophobic and racist too.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Yes because all those other countries DON'T have opposition parties that were dead set against it too. They still got it passed because they fought for it.

Does Gerrymandering exist in those countries, how about institutional voter suppression, how do those countries treat fake news, how do elections work in those countries, do they have the same constitution that the US has, what about system of governance?

You cannot just go X country has it they did it we can get it done just as easily. That is exactly part of the fantasy land that you are living in.

 

[Fenderputty]

Most western countries don't have single-payer systems. A multi-payer system similar to Germany/France/Switzerland is a much better model for where to take the US's system than something like the UK due to the degree of existing private infrastructure.

It's too bad only us Neoliberal Shills recognize this though.

 

[Swass]

Hillary was a great politician, but a terrible showman. She didn't use catchy soundbites, and instead wanted the american people to understand what was going on instead of making empty promises like Bernie and Trump did.

As a Clinton supporter (still today) I believe her mistake was that listening to her talk was like the "Eat Your Vegitables Hour with Gramma Hil" and and average uneducated middle american voter doesn't react well to that. Which is why she was always called an elitist. This country is terrified of smart people, or at least enraged by them. If someone seems smarter than you, it's taken as a personal attack and that's really sad.

You mean "Pokemon Go to the polls" wasn't catchy? lol so cringey! I wish she would just curl her pointing finger back and point it right at herself and quit trying to pin the blame on everyone else. That is what the orange clown does and she is a far better person than he could ever be.

 

[Father_Brain]

If I wanted the National Committee of a political party to treat me as they treated the front runner candidate, the first thing I would do is join the party.


I always wondered why Bernie never did that.

because literally no one cares about that outside the same tiny but very loud percentage of the party that hates him and has hated him since his campaign became an actual obstacle to HRC getting the nomination

 

[pigeon]

Over health care, job creation, Wall Street, the size of the minimum wage? Are these not debates over ideology?

Not really?

Establishment Democrats and leftists both want universal healthcare for all Americans. They disagree on the means to accomplish that end.

Establishment Democrats and leftists both want to ensure a good job and a living wage for all Americans. They disagree on the means to accomplish that end. (They are both wrong, a basic income is better because a coercive labor market is fundamentally unjust. But they're coming around.)

On Wall Street, there might actually be a legitimate ideological conflict. But as far as I can tell, most leftists want the same thing as establishment Democrats -- to have Wall Street controlled and strongly regulated, without being fully extinguished. The segment of leftists that would like to simply abolish Wall Street certainly exists, but I'm not sure they are any more populous than us basic income guys.

This is actually a pretty interesting discussion. It seems quite obvious to me that almost none of these are ideological conflicts! What makes you think they are?

 

[DrForester]

Yes, if you don't understand political trends and instead just react in easily consumable 140 characters or less sound bytes instead of building a political platform, you're going to continue to lose, and you're just going to keep putting racists in power.

Stop calling racists, racist and they'll stop voting for racists?

That's not how it works.

But hey, you tell yourself any lie that stops you from facing the truth that every one of your friends and family members who voted for Trump is a racist. You keep ignoring and excusing these racists.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

"I'm not a racist I just vote for them." Isn't an excuse

EVERY Trump voter is racist.

Every. One.

 

[pigeon]

It's not a suggestion. Democracy in general is a sham.

Then why do you keep offering arguments about campaign strategy and messaging?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Stop calling racists, racist and they'll stop voting for racists?

That's not how it works.

But hey, you tell yourself any lie that stops you from facing the truth that every one of your friends and family members who voted for Trump is a racist. You keep ignoring and excusing these racists.

Ah, yes, my family who are people of color are racists.

Cool. I'll let them know that.

Mean while, you can enjoy being political impotent and incompetent.

But if you feel good about being ignorant, then don't let reality stop you.

 

[DOWN]

People here are pulling the “So Hillary hates ponies, I see”

 

[curls]

for fucks sake the DNC was in cahoots with Hillary's team. Is that in the book? She needs to go away.

People are long overdue a different perspective on Hillary.

Empire Files: Abby Martin Exposes What Hillary Clinton Really Represents

Is it any surprise that people wanted something different by supporting Sanders.