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[zero margin]

If I had to pay high taxes every year I would consider this and for the little amount I drive the gas savings is negligible. I would like to be more green but uh...I'll recycle more stuff I guess. :lol

I do like the look of it.

 

[Hari Seldon]

*Ring* *Ring*

You need to consider the total cost of driving the car over the car's lifetime. No gas, no oil changes, VERY low maintenance (there are very few moving parts, less brake wear . . . regen braking FTW), etc.

K, THX, BYE

Your cost analysis was not accurate.

Assume a 10k price difference between a 15k Sentra and that car since we are comparing lowest end models of similar size cars.

So now the electric car is $10k "cheaper" over a 10 year life cycle.

But now you have the $2k installation to mod your garage to charge it. Also $2k worth of electricity.

So 6k.

But wait... Tesla says their batteries only last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whatever comes first. So now you are talking about replacing the battery sometime within your 10 year life cycle. Tesla charges $12k if you *pre-purchase* the battery ahead of time. ($36k if not!!)

Assuming that this 12k is the worst case cost replacement of the battery, this car could be potentially 6k more expensive than a Sentra over 10 years.

So depending on how cheap Nissan can make the replacement battery, electrical cars are really not very cost effective at all in the long run. At least not yet.

 

[gcubed]

Your cost analysis was not accurate.

Assume a 10k price difference between a 15k Sentra and that car since we are comparing lowest end models of similar size cars.

So now the electric car is $10k "cheaper" over a 10 year life cycle.

But now you have the $2k installation to mod your garage to charge it. Also $2k worth of electricity.

So 6k.

But wait... Tesla says their batteries only last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whatever comes first. So now you are talking about replacing the battery sometime within your 10 year life cycle. Tesla charges $12k if you *pre-purchase* the battery ahead of time. ($36k if not!!)

Assuming that this 12k is the worst case cost replacement of the battery, this car could be potentially 6k more expensive than a Sentra over 10 years.

So depending on how cheap Nissan can make the replacement battery, electrical cars are really not very cost effective at all in the long run. At least not yet.

i agree that at best its cost neutral, but why would you use a base model sentra as a comparison? You do realize that the base model of this is comparable to the top of the line non-sport version of the Sentra

 

[Shanadeus]

Totally would buy this.

 

[speculawyer]

Your cost analysis was not accurate.

(snip)

But wait... Tesla says their batteries only last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whatever comes first. So now you are talking about replacing the battery sometime within your 10 year life cycle. Tesla charges $12k if you *pre-purchase* the battery ahead of time. ($36k if not!!)

Assuming that this 12k is the worst case cost replacement of the battery, this car could be potentially 6k more expensive than a Sentra over 10 years.

So depending on how cheap Nissan can make the replacement battery, electrical cars are really not very cost effective at all in the long run. At least not yet.

Ah . . . but wrong analysis is wrong. The Tesla uses old-school Lithium-cobalt batteries . . . common laptop batteries. The Tesla was created before good automotive Li-Ions were available. The newer Lithium Iron Phosphate and other battery chemistries last much longer. And better yet, they don't have the 'thermal runaway' (AKA exploding laptop battery) problem of the the old Lithium-cobalt batteries.

But your point is taken. I didn't expect the first generation EVs to even be close to comparison to gas cars in total ownership costs. It appears that they will be (at least with current subsidies) at least even.

But no absolute one can accurately make a comparison calculation. I've tried many times but you can't see in the future. The calculation depends on many changing things such as interest rates, gasoline prices, electricity prices, battery prices, comparative maintenance costs, etc. Depending on how things go, the Leaf may end up being cheaper, equal, or more expensive.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I would love to buy one, but my lifestyle dictates that it's not for me yet.


That 2000 dollar recharging unit install might turn some people off, too. If you plan on moving in a couple of years it doesn't make sense. What if you buy an EV from a different company? Are these recharging docks only exclusive to the same brand or can it be used with another vehicle?

 

[pj]

Your cost analysis was not accurate.

Assume a 10k price difference between a 15k Sentra and that car since we are comparing lowest end models of similar size cars.

So now the electric car is $10k "cheaper" over a 10 year life cycle.

But now you have the $2k installation to mod your garage to charge it. Also $2k worth of electricity.

So 6k.

But wait... Tesla says their batteries only last 100,000 miles or 5 years, whatever comes first. So now you are talking about replacing the battery sometime within your 10 year life cycle. Tesla charges $12k if you *pre-purchase* the battery ahead of time. ($36k if not!!)

Assuming that this 12k is the worst case cost replacement of the battery, this car could be potentially 6k more expensive than a Sentra over 10 years.

So depending on how cheap Nissan can make the replacement battery, electrical cars are really not very cost effective at all in the long run. At least not yet.

Screw electric vehicles, sign me up for a sentra that requires no drivetrain maintenance over 10 years

 

[Pimpwerx]

Hmmm...I can cosign to anything electric. Even an econobox. The sooner we get affordable electric econoboxes, the sooner we get affordable electric sportscars. PEACE.

 

[Ovid]

What, what if you don't own a home? How the heck will you be able to use the personal charging station?

 

[gcubed]

I would love to buy one, but my lifestyle dictates that it's not for me yet.


That 2000 dollar recharging unit install might turn some people off, too. If you plan on moving in a couple of years it doesn't make sense. What if you buy an EV from a different company? Are these recharging docks only exclusive to the same brand or can it be used with another vehicle?

someone posted earlier that all the major car manufacturers signed on to the recent standard for charging stations, not sure if this one falls into the "standard" since it was just signed off on in Jan 10.

What, what if you don't own a home? How the heck will you be able to use the personal charging station?

you wouldnt, the first gen of these is not really for apartment dwellers unfortunately. If they take off maybe apartments will install their own stations

 

[YuriLowell]

Call me when they arent boring as shit to drive.

 

[Ding]

Call me when they arent boring as shit to drive.

I'm curious, just how exciting do you need your daily commute to be?

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm curious, just how exciting do you need your daily commute to be?

I don't know about you, but mine is filled with jumps, explosions and getaways. I had to jump down from a bridge onto the lower level highway to get to work today. If the plug-ins can't give me that kind of performance, I don't see the point.

 

[speculawyer]

That 2000 dollar recharging unit install might turn some people off, too.

The 220V charging is an annoying aspect of pure EVs. You really need to have one since that is the only way to fully charge a pure EV overnight. This is another reason why I think The GM Volt PHEV model is better for now . . . you can easily charge that thing up overnight with a 110V outlet.

If you can install it yourself (not a big job but you will need to get permits & have it inspected), it would probably be much cheaper than $2000.

If you plan on moving in a couple of years it doesn't make sense. What if you buy an EV from a different company? Are these recharging docks only exclusive to the same brand or can it be used with another vehicle?

You could easily move it with you. You just need a 220V outlet where it will be installed and that is something that generally requires a permit, inspection, and electrician (if can't do it yourself and most people can't). And the new EV chargers are standardized across all major manufacturers. (The SAE J1772) They are learning from their mistakes.

Call me when they arent boring as shit to drive.

Oh yes, heaven forbid someone wants to enjoy the time spent inside their automobile.

Did you look at the Tesla and Fisker Karma?

EVs are not boring to drive . . . they have 100% Torque at 0 RPM. The only issue is the batteries . . . they are damn expensive so the EVs makers have to do everything possible to reduce the size of the batteries to reduce the price of the vehicles. (Limited range, great aerodynamics, top speed limitations, etc.)

 

[daw840]

I don't know about you, but mine is filled with jumps, explosions and getaways. I had to jump down from a bridge onto the lower level highway to get to work today. If the plug-ins can't give me that kind of performance, I don't see the point.

Oh yes, heaven forbid someone wants to enjoy the time spent inside their automobile.

 

[Schmitty]

Very interested, but I'll wait until the market is developed a bit and there are more choices.

The Leaf is nice looking though.

Yeah, I would not want to be a first adopter for an electric car

 

[pj]

Oh yes, heaven forbid someone wants to enjoy the time spent inside their automobile.

Who even says these cars are boring? Have the press driven them?

I would think that a small car with 100% of its torque available at 0rpm would at least be fun racing away from stop lights up to normal driving speeds.

 

[daw840]

Who even says these cars are boring? Have the press driven them?

I would think that a small car with 100% of its torque available at 0rpm would at least be fun racing away from stop lights up to normal driving speeds.

It's more the mentality of some people around here that there is no need to ever have any car that does anything more than the speed limit. Because, as the poster I quoted mentioned, there drive to work is not full of jumps, explosions, car chases, and Vin Diesel. They don't seem to get the fact that some people just like to drive a car with some balls, and not a base model Sentra that struggles to get to 75 MPH on the highway.

 

[speculawyer]

Screw electric vehicles, sign me up for a sentra that requires no drivetrain maintenance over 10 years

They'll give a warranty. But no maintenance? Not possible.

Maintenance is an area where EVs have a big win. You can literally build an electric motor with one moving part. Just one. (The rotor.)

In fact this is an area that car dealers and manufacturers dread . . . follow-on maintenance and parts sales will be much lower. No oil changes, radiators to leak, no mufflers to rust out & replace, no spark plugs, no distributors, etc. There will certainly be things that break on EVs but the drivetrain will be FAR more reliable.


Conspiracy theorists would say this is a reason automakers have delayed EVs . . . but that is not true . . . the batteries have just been (and continue to me) too expensive.

 

[BorkBork]

2012 til a global launch. Darn. Oh well, 2 years to work out the kinks and to see if other companies respond before I take the plunge.

 

[lethial]

I'll wait for a v8 version or even a turbo-charged v6.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Oh yes, heaven forbid someone wants to enjoy the time spent inside their automobile.

It's more the mentality of some people around here that there is no need to ever have any car that does anything more than the speed limit. Because, as the poster I quoted mentioned, there drive to work is not full of jumps, explosions, car chases, and Vin Diesel. They don't seem to get the fact that some people just like to drive a car with some balls, and not a base model Sentra that struggles to get to 75 MPH on the highway.

I was playing off his use of "exciting"; that's not a word that comes to mind when thinking about a commute to work, especially in what is clearly a commuter car. You're being a bit sensitive. The plug-in market is going to grow pretty quickly I suspect, so there will be plenty of variety in design and function in short order. Personally, I'm a 'boring car' person myself.

 

[lethial]

It's more the mentality of some people around here that there is no need to ever have any car that does anything more than the speed limit. Because, as the poster I quoted mentioned, there drive to work is not full of jumps, explosions, car chases, and Vin Diesel. They don't seem to get the fact that some people just like to drive a car with some balls, and not a base model Sentra that struggles to get to 75 MPH on the highway.

I completely agree. I drive a crappy ass cube van for my work during the week. The first thing I do when I get into my personal truck is punching the gas. Nothing makes me smile more then a nice v8. I used to own an econo-car and I would never buy one again.

 

[Vox-Pop]

nice car. But most people will notice the car's price compared to a civic, most people won't factor in gas prices.

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

Personally, I'm waiting for this

Spoiler

without holding my breath

.

...Install a Bloom Box in my house, too.

Now THIS seems more like it....can charge from any outlet..so roadtrips/long commutes are a go! (as long as where I go I have a place willing to let me use thier outlet, like a friends house or something.)

 

[sarcastor]

it's actually pretty ugly from the side

but god dammit, it's got a mouse. sign me up!

but the model S is waaaay sexier.

plus its got like a giant LCD center console

 

[LuCkymoON]

Ah . . . but wrong analysis is wrong. The Tesla uses old-school Lithium-cobalt batteries . . . common laptop batteries. The Tesla was created before good automotive Li-Ions were available. The newer Lithium Iron Phosphate and other battery chemistries last much longer. And better yet, they don't have the 'thermal runaway' (AKA exploding laptop battery) problem of the the old Lithium-cobalt batteries.

But your point is taken. I didn't expect the first generation EVs to even be close to comparison to gas cars in total ownership costs. It appears that they will be (at least with current subsidies) at least even.

But no absolute one can accurately make a comparison calculation. I've tried many times but you can't see in the future. The calculation depends on many changing things such as interest rates, gasoline prices, electricity prices, battery prices, comparative maintenance costs, etc. Depending on how things go, the Leaf may end up being cheaper, equal, or more expensive.

I can imagine flow batteries being used in the future for cars since you don't have to charge it by plugging it in.

 

[SouthernDragon]

The Leaf looks like a nice family car.

Being a 20-something, I really, really want a Tesla S.

Like, so bad.

 

[Desperado]

I completely agree. I drive a crappy ass cube van for my work during the week. The first thing I do when I get into my personal truck is punching the gas. Nothing makes me smile more then a nice v8. I used to own an econo-car and I would never buy one again.

The Leaf has a ~90 MPH top speed and electric cars accelerate very quickly.

 

[Zaptruder]

So....are these EV's ever going to get off taxpayer subsidies?

Probably way before we stop indirectly subsidizing petrol prices.

 

[grumble]

I really don't think that a few people here understand what torque means. The car would be pretty solid in low speed areas with frequent braking (city). Great acceleration off the stop.

Not a huge fan of these batteries, though. They're pretty awful for the environment.

 

[opticalmace]

It's great to see a large manufacturer deliver. I'm sure it'll have its problems, but I think it's a great precedent.

 

[speculawyer]

Now THIS seems more like it....can charge from any outlet..so roadtrips/long commutes are a go! (as long as where I go I have a place willing to let me use thier outlet, like a friends house or something.)

You can charge the Leaf from any outlet too as long as you bring the little adapter thing. However, if you are charging from 15amp 110V outlet, it will take some 16 hours to charge from empty to full. That is the reason you want the 220V unit in your garage.

But the charging does tend to be non linear with it faster at the start, so you get a lot of charging even if you just opportunistically charge from 110V when possible.

 

[speculawyer]

I really don't think that a few people here understand what torque means. The car would be pretty solid in low speed areas with frequent braking (city). Great acceleration off the stop.

Not a huge fan of these batteries, though. They're pretty awful for the environment.

Another common misconception. Most of the batteries that we've used for years are toxic: lead-acid (car batteries), NiMH, Ni-Cd, . . . they are all pretty nasty.

But . . . most modern automotive Li-Ions (with the exception of the Tesla's old school Lithium-cobalt battery) are non-toxic. The Leaf uses a lithium ion manganese that is environmentally friendly.

To show how safe his automotive li-ions are, the CEO of BYD drank the electrolyte from his battery!

 

[daw840]

I was playing off his use of "exciting"; that's not a word that comes to mind when thinking about a commute to work, especially in what is clearly a commuter car. You're being a bit sensitive. The plug-in market is going to grow pretty quickly I suspect, so there will be plenty of variety in design and function in short order. Personally, I'm a 'boring car' person myself.

Well, I suppose I wasn't speaking specifically to you, but I have seen that exact same sentiment around this board many times. Why do you need a fast car? You can't go more than the speed limit anyways! Who are you? Vin Diesel? Drive a Sentra for Christ sake. You just were the one to make the comment. Sorry if your not one of the pinko commie bastards around these boards.

 

[chaostrophy]

Has anyone made progress in adapting electric cars to dense cities where most people don't have garages, and park on the street? Would an electric equivalent to a gas station be possible, or does charging the battery take too long? Just wondering.

 

[Valkyr Junkie]

Some additional info that I didn't see mentioned: the $2200 home charger is eligible for a $2000 federal tax rebate as well.

Has anyone made progress in adapting electric cars to dense cities where most people don't have garages, and park on the street? Would an electric equivalent to a gas station be possible, or does charging the battery take too long? Just wondering.

Urban charge centers would likely support 440V which will charge an EV fully in no time; not gas station quick by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly "run inside and take a shower and come back to have charged enough electricity for the rest of the evening" quick. Curb-side chargers are probably a ways out due to the infrastructure issues of having a rather open charging device. Plus you gotta worry about people unplugging your car if you don't have some kind of lock :lol

 

[ToxicAdam]

Some additional info that I didn't see mentioned: the $2200 home charger is eligible for a $2000 federal tax rebate as well.

a 50% rebate up to 2000 dollars

 

[thechristoph]

Ah yes, the Nissan Leaf. Because electricity grows on trees.

Electric cars are a hard sell for average Americans. Not because we want our gas guzzlers, but because many of us commute from the burbs to the city. I have a ~35 mile commute each way. I just don't trust an electric car to power my iPod, stereo, air conditioning during Georgia's eight-month long summers, and still get me to work and home, and maybe making some stops along the way to run errands.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well, I suppose I wasn't speaking specifically to you, but I have seen that exact same sentiment around this board many times. Why do you need a fast car? You can't go more than the speed limit anyways! Who are you? Vin Diesel? Drive a Sentra for Christ sake. You just were the one to make the comment. Sorry if your not one of the pinko commie bastards around these boards.

Fair enough. To clarify, I don't begrudge or question anyone's choice in cars. I buy what I like and what works for me, everyone else does the same. Personally I don't see how a car can make a drive to work more or less exciting - to me driving is fundamentally boring - but as I said: to each their own. I certainly have plenty of preferences that get others in a huff about.

Back on topic: I'm hoping my car lasts long enough for the plug-in market to mature a bit more. I drive a '97 Saturn, and it's gotten me ~38 MPG for nearly ten years now, fully paid off for all but three of those years with no engine trouble. Fuel economy is my top priority in car selection, since I drive over 50 miles round trip to work each day. So a plug-in would be ideal, as I could use that and the family can use the van for longer trips (which is what we do now).

I'm thinking, five years or so and we'll see prices falling quickly and plug in spots sprouting up like weeds. Out here in Oregon I already see quite a few.

 

[gcubed]

i see people dont realize how awesome an EV is for torque and acceleration. An EV can be made to beat anything for the right price, this is one step in the right direction. If you want to have the "sound" to make you feel bad ass as a EV blows past you, you can always get a soundracer

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037CIIGQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[speculawyer]

Gas station smell? :lol

Is that really something that has bothered people? It never even occurred to me. Must be a Japanese thing?

 

[speculawyer]

Ah yes, the Nissan Leaf. Because electricity grows on trees.

Electric cars are a hard sell for average Americans. Not because we want our gas guzzlers, but because many of us commute from the burbs to the city. I have a ~35 mile commute each way. I just don't trust an electric car to power my iPod, stereo, air conditioning during Georgia's eight-month long summers, and still get me to work and home, and maybe making some stops along the way to run errands.

Electricity can be grown like the way trees do it . . . solar power. (and driving on electricity costs 1/5th the cost of gasoline.)

The Leaf is clearly not for you unless you can charge your car at work . . . and that is possible for a lot of people.

But the Volt would be great for you.