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OFFICIAL ELECTION THREAD MEANS ALL ELECTION-RELATED STUFF GOES IN HERE, DUR

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M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
There's less than a week to go, and there are a billion issues and subplots and endorsements to bicker about. To prevent a flood of redundant topics, we have this thread. Same deal as almost all the other sticky threads. You guys know the drill. Everything goes in here.*

Now I'm hoping that anyone who's voting or even interested in this election will feel free to post. So for all the people who are normally driven off by the hamster-wheel of GA political threads: Come on in. And for all the usual suspects (you know who you are), try not to scare everyone off. Keep it nice.

Yeah, this is a really important election, with a lot at stake, and it arouses a lot of emotion. That's fine, but find a way to say your piece without insulting other posters. Also, stay away from sarcastic one-liners written primarily to get under someone's skin. That's basically the definition of trolling right there.

Also, no pictures please, but link to them all you want. 56kers are people too.

*The one exception is reports about election-related violence. That goes here.
 
K

Koshiro

Member
I'm pretty certain Bush will get in, because I'm often hearing Americans say (I'm a Brit) "He's a good man" as if that's a reason for him to be president. The other thing that I keep hearing from Amerians I know it that the rest of the world should mind their own business. Isn't that somewhat ironic?

I don't really like Kerry that much, but yeah, anyone but Bush.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
There's a long tradition of Americans, especially in some very pro-Bush states, resenting "outsiders" telling them what they should do. I understand the sentiment, but if the US is going to be an active international force, people here are going to have to accept the rest of the world mouthing off.

That doesn't mean they will accept it soon though, so my practical advice for Europeans is not to push the yanks too hard. The backlash would be counterproductive. We'll figure it out and do the right thing. Just give us a bit of time.
 
D

Diablos

Member
Mandark, your political violence link isn't working.

Anyway, go Kerry... I really hope he wins this election. Everyone says he's gonna lose, but he still has a chance. Otherwise every political analyst on TV wouldn't say "it's too close to call" every 10 seconds. :D

I find it funny that Adam Pearlman's tape was just recently discovered. The FBI/CIA have probably had it for months. Bush and Cheney are gonna use it as a scare tactic. Not cool...
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
Larry Sabatos says Bush needs a 5-6% lead in the polls to win marginally, while Dick Morris said Clinton will help Kerry and things are pointing in his direction, and Zogby has long held that Bush would need quite a formidable effort to overcome Kerry, who has tons of advantages...

I'm pro-Bush for this election, but a Kerry win will help the Democratic wake up to the realities of terrorism IMO...

I'd be really be much more upset with a Kerry win if Republican's were in trouble in Congress, but at worst, they'll keep the House and Kerry won't be able to pass all the random stuff he's been spouting off anyway...

Bush in the White House would be ideal IMO for the so-called "War on Terror", but Kerry in the White House would at least ensure some brutal mid-terms IMO...

I think the Bush/conservative side totally dropped the ball in response to the Dean/Moore-type attacks... They have some good film responses, but only Fahrenhype 9/11 is widely available in DVD, the other two are in theatres, which is just dumb if they wanted to change minds...

I cannot believe it, but quite a few of my best friends seem to buy into the Moore's movie as undistorted, complete fact... One even almost couldn't sleep over how much the movie scared her, I wonder if she imagined Saudi's coming to rule us or what, because IMO the movie was powerful, but not distressing if you've researched it's assertions and counterpoints in advance... Some other really good buddies I've known since HS and are kinda best friends and play games with a lot in summers I guess aren't really prone to conspiracy paranoia, but the disaffection from politics in the first place probably makes Moore's attempts to affect people easier...

Like Stone and Parker, I think it's stupid and weak-minded (or maybe just ignorance) for a movie, even Fahrenheit 9/11 to change your mind or compel you to vote, for either Kerry or Bush...

There's little either candidate can do at this point, but I say the "closeness" of the race and Bush under 50% in polls is an indication that Republicans/conservatives dropped the ball in action and getting a dialouge with gullible young voters...

I think he can still win, but as an example, if he's ahead 48%-44% in Florida (just an example not citing any specific poll), he's, by historical standards, in big trouble cause undecideds break for challenger...

In all honesty though, IMO Kerry is the "lesser of two evils" in terms of fighting the war on terrorism between him and Dean. I'm a big Dean fan for some of his domestic ideas like on healthcare, but I would not trust him on security at all... at least the war wouldn't fall apart (hopefully) and a Republican could step into the race for a serious go at it in '08 (hopefully someone like McCain)... unless of course Kerry becomes unacceptable to his own party and a certain Senator from New York takes advantage to pre-empt the eventual campaign in '12 from Edwards, which would happen if Kerry wins in '04...
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
Diablos said:
Mandark, your political violence link isn't working.

Anyway, go Kerry... I really hope he wins this election. Everyone says he's gonna lose, but he still has a chance. Otherwise every political analyst on TV wouldn't say "it's too close to call" every 10 seconds. :D

I find it funny that Adam Pearlman's tape was just recently discovered. The FBI/CIA have probably had it for months. Bush and Cheney are gonna use it as a scare tactic. Not cool...
Click to expand...
it was actually ABC who handed it to the CIA/FBI, not the other way around, they somehow acquired it from some Pakistan region...
 
I

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
efralope said:
Bush in the White House would be ideal IMO for the so-called "War on Terror"
Click to expand...

If by 'ideal for' you mean he's the best man to make things worse by reinforcing the stereotypes of the West that the hatemongers are trying to promote and spread fear and distrust among previously moderate Muslims, then I'm with you 100%.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Even if Kerry's immediate policies on Iraq has little difference from Bush's, I think a fresh leadership will definetly help to reinvigorate and rally international relations and opinions. Someone that is willing to take a more considered and careful approach, by his countrymen, and by the world, before engaging in dramatic actions.

There was a program on aussie TV the other night, with some American political commentator (or some such) completely resentful of the world's opinion on american politics; saying things like how you're damned if you do and your damned if you do. That they have no right to criticize the way in which the US works and that their allies were hypocrites for taking all forms of US help, but not providing it when it asked for it.

This guy presented the worst of these types of opinions IMO; When America takes appropriate global policing action, you'll find that the majority of the world will agree. As in with Kosovo; when the major atrocities are underway and you intervene, you'll be greeted with multi lateral support. But on the other hand, when you decide to go back on the basis of weak intelligence and a host of other suspicious reasons into a country long subdued, then it would be woe for the world, if it were to support actions like that.
In addition, in the same way the U.S cannot function without the world, as much as they'd like to think they can, the world as it is cannot function without the US. At least neither side can without great detriment. If the world percieves a grave ill in your leadership, something that is quite evident on the outside, although perhaps difficult to percieve inside where rhetoric and propoganda is high, then it's ill-advised to completely disregard, not just dis-regard but throw a hissy fit at that kind of advice.
If the U.S. were ever in legitimate danger, even against forces they could handle, I'm sure you'd find a huge coalition of the willing ready to defend it. We were willing to do so after 9/11; no one complained about going to afghanistan, but we're not blind dumb beasts without reasoning; if we see no grave threat and indeed a good cause to delay and more carefully examine before entering... then it would be our mistake as a world to lend support.

For me, as an outsider, it's important that Kerry is elected, because it provides new, sane, reinvigorated leadership to a country that has recently become so hooked on simple and often false messages. It also provides a better chance of U.S. stability and prosperity; which in turn provides the world with stability - the technologies they come up with also have a great positive effect on the world. In a more immediate sense, it would mean seeing more open research on stem cells, which would in turn be a major boon to people suffering from many many problems all around the world. In a more long term sense, it means the U.S. along with its current momentum in scientific research and it's economic power will help bring technological achievements to us sooner than later.
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
no, ideal for me because he's not looking at this as a narrow war on just Osamba Bin-Laden and a law enforcement and reactionary war...

from what I can tell, many moderate Muslims in Afaginstan and Turkey actually don't think the war is "hate-mongering"...

it all depends on how you define moderate...

if by moderate you mean a majority that's less-extreme than the radicals, I wouldn't call that moderate... at least not any more moderate than Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell, especially considering that the Christian religion doesn't have world-wide underground organizations bent on using targeted killings of civilians to spread their beliefs to the same extent the Islamic religion can claim...

I'd prefer to define "moderate" Muslims by the likes of Irshad Manji (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13970_1.html)

who says in response to a question about her fight against Saudi Wahabism "Actually, unlike many Islamic scholars, I'm arguing that the trouble with Islam is much, much greater, because the gates to ijtihad shut tight towards the end of the 11th century. Ultimately, part of the trouble with Islam is that Arab imperialism has become confused with Islam by Muslims."

I'm no Muslim expert, but she makes a lot of sense considering everything I've learned about the state of the Islam when Spain was the central to the Spain (before the "Moors" were ousted...) tell me that the radicalizing of the religion has more to do with out-dated Arab culture than the teachings of the Quran. Iranians aren't even Arab, but through the Muslim religion picked up a lot of Arab culture and are now a repressive theocracy where reform looks less and less in the face of American efforts to go after Islamic jihadists/extremists...

and Dr. Masuda Jalal (http://www.afghanistan-seiten.de/afghanistan/bios_jalal.html), who ran for President against Karzai a few weeks ago...

And I also believe that the Middle-East won't move past the current radicalism until women in all their countries are infused into society as complete equals... Even in "moderate" contries like Jordan and Egypt, civil and human rights atrocities happen and women are treated as second-rate citizens...

I'm very skeptical when people refer to the "moderate Muslim" because it can be such a broad term. I'd say a lot of these so-called moderates treat women like sh*t and could be classified as the "lesser two oppressers"...

I don't remember the name of the session, but I remember seeing C-SPAN program in '02 where a woman was telling of the state of things in the middle east (I think it took place in a library, but there were a lot of women in the audience and they also would tell their experiences before coming to America) and it was the first time it made me feel like countries like Jordan were artifically moderate and are just acting to put a face to co-operate with Israel and the US... Sure, they are co-operating with us and at least they aren't as radical as the Wahabi's in Saudi Arabia and the extremist strains of Islam in Pakistan, but it's pretty sad that what we refer to as "moderate" Muslims still believe in abuse and discrimination of women and while having no legal protections against blatent lies and violence from men, and punishing women for the crimes men commit...
 
I

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
efralope said:
from what I can tell, many moderate Muslims in Afaginstan and Turkey actually don't think the war is "hate-mongering"...
Click to expand...

I meant the hatemongerers on the other side - the Bin Ladens of this world. It's in their interest for the US to act in such a way as to alienate the moderates caught up in the war.
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
if re-inforcing the idea of democracy, civil rights, separation of church and state, full equality for women, and equal protection under the law are "stereotypes" that plague the perception of the West in the eyes of "moderates" in the Middle-East, I'd be wary of what we label moderate before allowing supposed "moderates" to influence US policy towards the Middle-East and Israel...
 
jobber

jobber

Would let Tony Parker sleep with his wife
Last time, I voted for Pat Buchanan cause he had th eballs to run 1 minute ads during Raw where Bush and Gore didn't give a damn about the 18-35 M demographic. Since he's not running this time and i've yet to see anyone try to reach the youth voters, I'm going to close my eyes and push a random button. I might just write in my name so it'll be in the history book. Neither canidates "move" me. Kerry has a advantage with me cause everything is a mess. I'm tired of paying $2 for a gallon of gas.

Oh I forgot...

Vote or Die


Like P Diddy said
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
Are you sure Buchanan ran ads in RAW?

They might have been ads bought from the local cable company or something that ran in various stations...

Don't imagine why he'd appeal to younger voters, but if he did, props to him for doing so...
 
I

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
efralope said:
if re-inforcing the idea of democracy, civil rights, separation of church and state, full equality for women, and equal protection under the law are "stereotypes" that plague the perception of the West in the eyes of "moderates" in the Middle-East [snip]
Click to expand...

Don't be so willfully stupid. I mean barging into a country on false pretences, bombing the crap out of it, then screwing up post-war operations. Regardless of whether that's how you perceive it, it's a perception that's a lot easier to have when you're on the short end of it.
 
P

Pimpwerx

Member
How's the electoral map breakdown looking so far? Doesn't Zogby or one of those polls use that rather than the pop vote? AFAIK, Zogby is still pointing to Kerry for the win. He said he'll know with a great deal of certainty by this weekend, which would be cool. I hope it's Kerry, b/c I don't think I'm ready to partake in the civil war that's sure to ensue if Bush wins again. :lol I need more time to buy guns and ammo (take that assault weapons ban). PEACE.
 
Alcibiades

Alcibiades

Member
iapetus said:
Don't be so willfully stupid. I mean barging into a country on false pretences, bombing the crap out of it, then screwing up post-war operations. Regardless of whether that's how you perceive it, it's a perception that's a lot easier to have when you're on the short end of it.
Click to expand...
you mean like being the the short end of Michael Moore's F911 perception of Iraq?

I actually opposed the Iraq War and think the Bush administration has mishandled some of the situations that have arisen, and certainly don't think things are fine and dandy at the moment, but in the overall "War on Terror" issue I definitely think that we should not wait to be attacked before we use force to go after threats...

that said, I'm not going to look at what happened and blindly put it in the hands of one man or even one administration... the UN, France, Russia, the Congress, Bush Sr., Clinton, Reagan, Blair, Putin, the Senate, the House, previous US Congresses, the CIA/FBI/MI-6/Russian/French intelligence, everybody had their hand in what eventually happened and it's not like the case was totally ridiculous considering Saddam's behavior (which seemed a total mystery to me), and if Kerry is the lesser of two evils because he changes his responses to create an ambigous position to offend as least as possible, then so is the US invasion in the face of what we've learned about Russian and French political officials using bribes from Saddam to buy UN vetoes using the Oil-for-Food program, much of which remains to be uncovered, not to mention human-rights atrocities in Iraq before the invasion...
 
K

KingGondo

Banned
Bottom line:

Largest deficit in history.

A slugglish economy (reinforced by recent consumer confidence polls).

A war in Iraq that is going "fair" at best--an organized and brutal insurgency is flexing its muscle.

$150 billion in tax cuts for businesses (signed on a plane) while requests of $60 billion additional funds are made for the war effort.

When do you finally NOT vote for a guy?

If Bush is re-elected, I will weep for our country.
 
K

Koshiro

Member
KingGondo said:
A war in Iraq that is going "fair" at best--an organized and brutal insurgency is flexing its muscle.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, I'd like to personally thank Mr Bush for forcing our guys to move nearer baghdad and tidy up your mess.

I honestly think the American forces have something to learn from UK's forces. Whereas US forces went in heavy handed, UK forces have takent he softly softly approach. Seriously, you see any coverage of this (UK media or not) and the Americans are dug in dealing with random violence, meanwhile down south the British guys are sitting by the roadside having a nice cup of tea with the locals. I don't think people would be so hostile to the US if their troops adopted the approach of the British. Sure US are massively tough and could kick anyone's arse, but as is increasingly evident in Iraq, that means precisely shit in a terrorist atmosphere.
 
E

explodet

Member
A good majority of Canadians would like to see Kerry elected. My guess is we're just bitter that the Bush administration likes Mexico better. Not to mention the missle defense issue, homeland security at the border, tarrifs, and the whole drug fiasco.

As for me, I'll have one TV flipping between CNN and CBC Newsworld, and another TV locked on the Daily Show's coverage. I didn't get into the show until a year or two ago, and I'm curious to see how they handle the live event.
 
X

xsarien

daedsiluap
efralope said:
no, ideal for me because he's not looking at this as a narrow war on just Osamba Bin-Laden and a law enforcement and reactionary war...
Click to expand...

Kerry's approach is better than the naive view that "we can fight them there instead of here." Think about how much sense that makes. If you need help, Google will point you towards myriad articles about Islamic extremists who live in the U.S. and western Europe. Do you know what's truly frightening? How fucking simple Bush thinks it is.
 
I

Incognito

Troll
Willco, your president thanks you for your vote:

bushflip.gif
 
D

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
I'm going to see Kerry in less than an hour. Should be more of the same, but it would be cool to see the next president of USA, no? That is if the people wake up in time for the election.
 
F

firex

Member
it seriously doesn't matter who I vote for thanks to motherfucking winner-take-all voting. I think somewhere around 75% of my state is expected to vote for Bush even though I'm not going to. That's why if I can, I'm writing in to vote for Al Sharpton.
 
F

Fragamemnon

Member
it seriously doesn't matter who I vote for thanks to motherfucking winner-take-all voting. I think somewhere around 75% of my state is expected to vote for Bush even though I'm not going to.
Click to expand...

Vote for the guy you want for anyway. Winning the popular vote and getting a mandate are important things to have, and, really, the best thing that could happen to this country is to have an election where the popular vote went to the guy who won the electoral college.

If your vote doesn't matter because of demographics, that's fine. Vote anyway. If everyone who thinks their vote doesn't matter in a deep red or blue state voted, it very well *might* matter in the future. For example, I'm not too optimistic about my own state's chances of going for Kerry. I am hopeful that we can make it close enough that, come next cycle, the GOP will have yet another must-win state to defend. My vote for POTUS may not matter a lot now, but it might later on. Think long-term. :)
 
T

Triumph

Banned
I voted today. Had to type in Ralph Nader's name on the LieBald touchscreen, which I'm sure promptly responded to it's internal programming and deleted my ballot.

Three cheers for Democracy!
 
E

evil solrac v3.0

Member
Raoul Duke said:
I voted today. Had to type in Ralph Nader's name on the LieBald touchscreen, which I'm sure promptly responded to it's internal programming and deleted my ballot.

Three cheers for Democracy!
Click to expand...


THREE CHEERS FOR THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM THAT'S A DEFACTO DICTATORSHIP!!!
HOO-RAY!!!
 
M

MoxManiac

Member
I'm pretty apathetic overall since neither canidate is very appealing..but i'm leaning towards Kerry since i'm not sure our economy can survive another four years of Bush...
 
I

Incognito

Troll
john kerry is hitting his stride...

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....ACRBAE0CFEY?type=politicsNews&storyID=6647996

Kerry said the weapons were not "where they were supposed to be, you were warned to guard them, you didn't guard them. They're not secure, and, guess what, according to George Bush's own words, he shouldn't be our commander in chief and I couldn't agree more."

With Tuesday's election deadlocked, Kerry took aim at the president's perceived strength -- national security -- and hammered him for a fourth consecutive day on the missing explosives.

Bush on Wednesday accused Kerry of opportunism, saying: "A political candidate who jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts is not a person you want as commander in chief ... that is part of a pattern of a candidate who will say anything to get elected."

Kerry threw the words back at the president 24 hours later, announcing he was going "to apply the Bush standard" and declaring: "Mr. President, I agree with you."

"George Bush jumped to conclusions about 9/11 and Saddam Hussein," he said. "George Bush jumped to conclusions about weapons of mass destruction and he rushed to war without a plan for the peace. George Bush jumped to conclusions about how the Iraqi people would receive our troops. He not only jumped to conclusions, he ignored the facts he was given."
Click to expand...

:D
 
F

fennec fox

ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
eggplant said:
Kerry is no Gavin Newsom, but Bush obviously doesn't care for the LGBT crowd.
Click to expand...
You know, I didn't vote for Gavin, but he might just be a really damn good mayor. San Francisco is currently in the middle of a long, messy hotel workers' strike, and he was on the picket lines yesterday since the hotel owners locked out the strikers and wouldn't negotiate with them -- a big surprise, since most of his opponents say that he's in the pockets of big business.

If he can keep up the energy behind that and the gay marriage thing, I think he could become a pretty well-known politician.

Then again, he may just seem great because the last one was so bad. That's what happened in Philadelphia -- W. Wilson Goode was a terrible mayor who dropped a bomb on his own city, and Ed Rendell stepped in afterwards and looked like Superman by comparison.
 
V

videogamer

Banned
fennec fox said:
You know, I didn't vote for Gavin, but he might just be a really damn good mayor. San Francisco is currently in the middle of a long, messy hotel workers' strike, and he was on the picket lines yesterday since the hotel owners locked out the strikers and wouldn't negotiate with them -- a big surprise, since most of his opponents say that he's in the pockets of big business.
Click to expand...

Hopefully this thing ends soon so he can get relatively good relations with business again.

If he can keep up the energy behind that and the gay marriage thing, I think he could become a pretty well-known politician.

Then again, he may just seem great because the last one was so bad. That's what happened in Philadelphia -- W. Wilson Goode was a terrible mayor who dropped a bomb on his own city, and Ed Rendell stepped in afterwards and looked like Superman by comparison.
Click to expand...

Well, he's still somewhat new. He wasn't that popular when he came in, but with the gay marriages, he converted many Gonzalez supporters. Yeah, if he continues this, I can easily see him as governor or senator in 4 or 8 years. Not only that, his wife says that he's hung. :D
 
I

Incognito

Troll
from dailykos, on florida:

According to the Herald poll, done by Zogby International, Kerry is positioned to win Miami-Dade by anywhere from 90,000 to 100,000 votes.

A margin that large in Florida's most populous county would be hard for Bush to make up across the rest of the state [...]

Overall, Hispanics -- both Cubans and non-Cubans -- still support Bush, according to the Herald poll, with 62 percent saying they will vote for the president and 35 percent saying they will vote for Kerry.

Nevertheless, that is a tremendous improvement for the Democrats over 2000, when 73 percent of Hispanics favored Bush and only 27 percent voted for Gore.

And almost all of those gains for Kerry have come from Mexicans, Salvadorans, Dominicans, Colombians and Puerto Ricans among others. Many of whom are going to be voting for the first time.
Click to expand...

If Kerry manages to take Florida, I'll fucking streak through my apartment complex NAKED!

N A K E D!!
 
I

Incognito

Troll
This will impress Raoul Duke! Joe Biden handpicked by Kerry to be Sec. of State should Kerry win election...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1334724,00.html

Joe Biden rocks the hizzouse. Here's another interesting snippet:

One puzzle for the Democratic team is the Pentagon. Mr Kerry is understood to want his friend John McCain, the Arizona senator, to be Defence Secretary. But Mr McCain is believed to be reluctant. The confirmed maverick might fit uncomfortably even in his close friend’s administration. If the Republicans keep control of the Senate, the Arizona senator will take the powerful job of chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Another possibility is Chuck Hagel, the Nebraska senator, also a Republican. Mr Kerry is said to be intent on removing Porter Goss, who was confirmed as the head of the CIA only this month.
Click to expand...
 
I

Incognito

Troll
MIMIC said:
John Kerry was at my school today (Ohio State University).

I fucking shook hand!!! :D
Click to expand...

Damn. I'm actually jealous. How was the speech? I've heard the one he gave in Madison, WI, was absolutely amazing. I'm sure the one at OSU didn't deviate too far from that one...
 
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