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[Patrick Klepek]

Wait, peter moore actually said the NBA2k6 videos was real-time? Where?

 

[J2 Cool]

Wait, peter moore actually said the NBA2k6 videos was real-time? Where?

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/613/613092p1.html

At Microsoft, we previewed in-engine footage of a player tossing up shots. The level of realism in these movies was unprecedented. There was no indication of polygons, skin glistened realistically, and the animation looked true to form. In some of the slow motion shots we were able to watch as the player's eyes followed the ball and a shot from above displayed the muscles in his back flexing as he stretched out his arms. Peter Moore, the head of Microsoft Game Studios, conceded that there was still a lot of work to be done on the flexing of the biceps and lower arms; details that no casual onlooker would catch.

The player was set on a street court in an urban environment. Some of the lighting in the scene was provided by a fire in a metal barrel in the background. This emphasized the spectral highlighting, reflective surfaces, and even the slight, diffusive, transparent quality of the player's ears. As he went up for a jump-shot, his uniform flowed through the air as if it were made from a fine silk. I have never seen material move with this level of quality on any console.

While the footage looked pre-rendered, Moore promised that it was the real deal -- realtime, in-game footage. He also stated that the development team was aiming to reach the same level of quality displayed when the court was packed with 10 players. The game will be published by Take-Two Interactive. We will have more information on this title next week at E3.

Take what you want of that. The build at E3 was nothing close to the Lebron James video.

 

[mrklaw]

I saw the hires video of NBA2k6. While that single player might not be how the game turns out, I think it could have been realtime. There was distortion/tearing in his shorts, and the cloth stuff looked a bit off. Still very impressive though, and perhaps something that could be used for slowmo replay type stuff.

 

[TheDuce22]

Take what you want of that. The build at E3 was nothing close to the Lebron James video.

Did they even show off the game at E3? I thought that was the xbox version in the video clips.

 

[J2 Cool]

Did they even show off the game at E3? I thought that was the xbox version in the video clips.

We all did :lol Sorry.

 

[Patrick Klepek]

None of that video is real-time. Visual Concepts told me straight up. It's like EA's Madden video -- a tech. demo created based on the hardware specs. Microsoft had provided, and what they believed the game would look like. The demo was made back in October!

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Why is it so hard to believe the majority of the "trailers" were in fact using in game assets but rendered to run @ 60 FPS? We already have one of the devs on Heavenly Sword basically saying just that. And considering most of these titles are at the very least a year away (probably up to two years for others) from a finished product I dont think thats much of a stretch at all.

 

[Sega]

Why is it so hard to believe the majority of the "trailers" were in fact using in game assets but rendered to run @ 60 FPS? We already have one of the devs on Heavenly Sword basically saying just that. And considering most of these titles are at the very least a year away (probably up to two years for others) from a finished product I dont think thats much of a stretch at all.

Well, 60fps is a HUGE deal to me. Most games go for great looking screenshots in exchange for a low framerate. Anyway, the Heavenly Sword video used TWO sets of art assets. I'm not sure which one to believe will look like gameplay.

The difference between those demos running at 60 and 25fps on real hardware is a massive difference to me. I so want it to be 60. I don't think anyone thinks the next gen machines won't be able to load those models as art assets.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Im just trying to get my head around the whole Sony "smoke and mirrors" nonsense people have been spouting about. The console is a freaking year away, what did you expect to see exactly in the form of actual games?

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Im just trying to get my head around the whole Sony "smoke and mirrors" nonsense people have been spouting about. The console is a freaking year away, what did you expect to see exactly in the form of actual games?

It's a matter of what it's presented as. Sony made no mention of the fact that it was largely cg (and in one interview posted in some thread...maybe this one, a sony rep actually said killzone was actual gameplay, which it is now known is not true). It's not a matter of them showing cg, it's a matter of them showing cg that was supposed to represent gameplay, without actually saying that it's not running in real time on the system.

 

[Mrbob]

None of that video is real-time. Visual Concepts told me straight up. It's like EA's Madden video -- a tech. demo created based on the hardware specs. Microsoft had provided, and what they believed the game would look like. The demo was made back in October!

Oh man. I really hope the early version of e3 2k6 360 is just a bunch of placeholder stuff. Such a far cry from the original renders. It looked like an Xbox game. Hopefully these games improve a thousand fold with final kits.

 

[Pimpwerx]

It's a matter of what it's presented as. Sony made no mention of the fact that it was largely cg (and in one interview posted in some thread...maybe this one, a sony rep actually said killzone was actual gameplay, which it is now known is not true). It's not a matter of them showing cg, it's a matter of them showing cg that was supposed to represent gameplay, without actually saying that it's not running in real time on the system.

I think they mean "representative" of gameplay. I think the statements are taken out of context here. When asked if the videos are prerendered, they've always admitted they are. I don't see what the problem is. They admit they aren't running in realtime, but have been fairly adamant it's what we'll be playing. Give 'em a chance to be wrong, then roast them all you like. If PD0 or DOA4 end up looking like ass, you can bet your ass people are gonna string 'em up for it. Why are some people so zealous to debunk these demos NOW before any development time can be put into the games? At the very least, shouldn't we wait until the game is actually in playable form first? Meh. PEACE.

 

[Sega]

I think they mean "representative" of gameplay. I think the statements are taken out of context here. When asked if the videos are prerendered, they've always admitted they are.

A few posts back, I posted a video interview with someone from Sony, who claimed not only that it was realtime, but actual gameplay in the Killzone video. I also pasted a link to the rumor report at gamespot, where Sony said specifically that it was realtime. It was said in interviews with the actual developer that it was not gameplay.

So, were the Killzone movies done on this hardware? I'm sure this was answered in another thread, but I can't find it in all of the E3 mess. I read interviews regarding it, and none gave a definitive answer except that they weren't gameplay (which was obvious). I'd also have a hard time believing the Motorstorm movie was running on this hardware.

EDIT:
Hmm... I guess this is all we know? http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/killzone2/news_6126204.html
Sony themselves said straight out that it was realtime. They usually say "no comment", but they straight out said it here.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/615/615531p1.html
But then here, it's said that the EA and Epic videos were the only realtime videos there... I'm guessing this is discounting the RSX/cell demonstrations.

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748475/vids_1.html
Hahah and now in this video interview, Sony themselves straight out LIE and say that Killzone movie was GAMEPLAY. Not just real-time... GAMEPLAY.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

It's a matter of what it's presented as. Sony made no mention of the fact that it was largely cg (and in one interview posted in some thread...maybe this one, a sony rep actually said killzone was actual gameplay, which it is now known is not true). It's not a matter of them showing cg, it's a matter of them showing cg that was supposed to represent gameplay, without actually saying that it's not running in real time on the system.

Here's what I saw at the Sony PC. A bunch of real time tech demos with the MC detailing the different aspects and capabilities of Cell and RSX. Clear enough. After thats over they roll out a bunch of polished looking trailers with the words "Work in Progress" underneath them. I dunno, there seems to be an obvious contrast there for anyone being remotely discerning. Considering some of those titles probably arent even launch targets and have over 18 months left of development time I dont think it should have been that hard to put two and two together at the time. But obviously some folks had their troubles.

Now was Sony coy about it? Of course they were. So was MS about their PGR3 trailer. The idea is to create buzz with what you believe the final product will be. I seriously dont see anything wrong with that on either side. As long as they eventually deliver. When you hear a Sony rep or MS rep say "yes real time" they're probably referring to actual in game renders/assets that arent running to the speed they expect to achieve with their specs. Is this a bit deceptive to your average gullible gaming rube? Yes. Do I personally give a shit? Not as long as the final product reaches par.

 

[midnightguy]

Well, 60fps is a HUGE deal to me. Most games go for great looking screenshots in exchange for a low framerate. Anyway, the Heavenly Sword video used TWO sets of art assets. I'm not sure which one to believe will look like gameplay.

The difference between those demos running at 60 and 25fps on real hardware is a massive difference to me. I so want it to be 60. I don't think anyone thinks the next gen machines won't be able to load those models as art assets.

I totally agree. this is why the majority of console games irritate the shit out of me, with their piss poor framerates. why is it that nearly every Namco and Sega 3D arcade game of the 1990s, from System 22 and Model 2 onwards, is 60fps. must be a reason.

60fps is important to me too. I agree that 30fps is fine for RPGs, adventure games, etc. but anything with fast action needs 60fps, and that means most games.

 

[Sega]

I totally agree. this is why the majority of console games irritate the shit out of me, with their piss poor framerates. why is it that nearly every Namco and Sega 3D arcade game of the 1990s, from System 22 and Model 2 onwards, is 60fps. must be a reason.

60fps is important to me too. I agree that 30fps is fine for RPGs, adventure games, etc. but anything with fast action needs 60fps, and that means most games.

Also, showing a video of "game art content" running at 60fps, when it can only run at 30 on the actual hardware, is like showing a 30fps video of a game that displays TWICE as many polygons and effects as the hardware can ever handle. I think it's not very cool showing something that's twice as much as you're capable of, as a demo. (then turn around and claim it's realtime gameplay)

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Also, showing a video of "game art content" running at 60fps, when it can only run at 30 on the actual hardware, is like showing a 30fps video of a game that displays TWICE as many polygons and effects as the hardware can ever handle. I think it's not very cool showing something that's twice as much as you're capable of, as a demo. (then turn around and claim it's realtime gameplay)

Even if thats what you realistically expect to eventually achieve up to a year from now? These things take time ya know.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Also, showing a video of "game art content" running at 60fps, when it can only run at 30 on the actual hardware, is like showing a 30fps video of a game that displays TWICE as many polygons and effects as the hardware can ever handle. I think it's not very cool showing something that's twice as much as you're capable of, as a demo. (then turn around and claim it's realtime gameplay)

Want some cheese with that whine? Concept renders are gonna target an optimal framerate. If it drops after development begins, then so be it. People forget the PS3 is coming out 6 months after the Xbox360. 360 demos were choppy, and most weren't even shown in playable form. You think Sony's gonna have anything playable or gonna show "hobbled" demos? WTF point is there showing a 30fps target render? PEACE.

 

[Sega]

Want some cheese with that whine? Concept renders are gonna target an optimal framerate. If it drops after development begins, then so be it. People forget the PS3 is coming out 6 months after the Xbox360. 360 demos were choppy, and most weren't even shown in playable form. You think Sony's gonna have anything playable or gonna show "hobbled" demos? WTF point is there showing a 30fps target render? PEACE.

You're right. Microsoft looked foolish (though they really had no choice but to show stuff, considering how soon they're launching). I just had a problem with Sony outright lying. Sony reps contacted by Gamespot said they were realtime, running on PS3 hardware. SCEA's VICE PRESIDENT, Jack Tretton, said they were not only realtime, but GAMEPLAY.

When asked specifically about Killzone, asking specifically if it was realtime or prerendered CG, Jack Tretton said, and I quote, "It's definitely real. I guess we're pretty good at keeping secrets because the dev kits were out there, and the dev kits are very intuitive so people did some incredible things. And that's one thing Ted wanted to make sure everyone understood. That is REAL GAMEPLAY everybody's seeing up there."

G4 asked him to make sure, "So that IS gameplay. All that stuff's real gameplay?"

Jack Tretton responded, "It IS gameplay."

G4 responded, "It looked pretty amazing though..."

There's no mistaking that he's telling people it's realtime gameplay. He's not claiming in a roundabout way that it's what gameplay is expected to be like. He even mentioned the dev kits and what they did with them. So yeah, if you think it's whining not to like being lied to, ok, I'm whining. Of course I don't expect a company to show something that's shitty (and by the way, I've read plenty of game design documents that HAVE specifically targeted 30fps, and I've actually never seen a conceptual render run at 60fps in my experience in the game industry, unless it was realtime, but that's not important), but I'd rather have nothing at all shown to me than to be lied to outright.

I do recognize that Sony had no choice but to play dirty (or at least dodgy) here, but it doesn't mean I like to be played by them. Nintendo at least had the decency not to show Final Fantasy: Spirits Within on a big screen and tell the world it's gameplay. I think they just let Sony do the dirty work of weakening Microsoft, and decided to do their part later. It may be foolish, who knows. But that's not the point.

I have plenty of patience for the next gen, and I'll base my decision on actual games. Just don't show me fake footage and tell me they are actual games showing actual gameplay. Luckily, I'm experienced enough to know it's not gameplay (as just about everyone else here is too). I can filter this fake information out of my decision making. I'd just rather they don't give fake information in attempts to sway my decision. PEACE

 

[Vince]

When asked specifically about Killzone, asking specifically if it was realtime or prerendered CG, Jack Tretton said, and I quote, "It's definitely real. I guess we're pretty good at keeping secrets because the dev kits were out there, and the dev kits are very intuitive so people did some incredible things. And that's one thing Ted wanted to make sure everyone understood. That is REAL GAMEPLAY everybody's seeing up there."

G4 asked him to make sure, "So that IS gameplay. All that stuff's real gameplay?"

Jack Tretton responded, "It IS gameplay."

G4 responded, "It looked pretty amazing though..."

He didn't lie. Ask yourself who "Ted" is... and then please STFU already. This whole situation is utterly pathetic and overblown, if people can't comprehend how a game is developed on devkits and showcased when in a conceptual or early development (especially in PR situations) then you shouldn't be allowed to post.

Then again, your supposed outrage at being "lied" to isn't out of the ordinary considering it's posted by a guy with the name "Sega."

 

[Sega]

He didn't lie. Ask yourself who "Ted" is... and then please STFU already. This whole situation is utterly pathetic and overblown, if people can't comprehend how a game is developed on devkits and showcased when in a conceptual or early development (especially in PR situations) then you shouldn't be allowed to post.

Then again, your supposed outrage at being "lied" to isn't out of the ordinary considering it's posted by a guy with the name "Sega."

I looked it up. I'm guessing he means Ted Price from Insomniac Games. I guess he was foolish enough to mix up I-8 with Killzone (I assumed Ted was with Guerilla, and I should have looked it up). I do believe I-8 is realtime and gameplay, though that doesn't change the fact that Sony told gamespot that the Killzone movie was realtime. You make a good point, really, but you didn't have to be so aggressive. We don't need any more aggression on this forum. People here are quick to attack Sega way out of context on this forum in some sad attempt to attack me, though I show no aggression. And again (for the second time in this same thread) I have my own reasons for choosing this name. But enjoy pretending to understand me based on an internet name. It probably makes you look insightful.