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Rttp: Suikoden III

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Ah, Suikoden. One of my favorite series ever. I've written about it countless times. I've gushed about its intricately designed world. I've praised its down-to-earth, rustic atmosphere. I've lauded how its game design still stands out as unique in the RPG genre, even today. I've even cataloged a brief synopsis on what makes each region so interesting. Even Suikoden IV, the worst entry in the series according to basically everybody, was a game I enjoyed simply due to being able to see more of the Suikoden world.

mZmlI7h.jpg

Suikoden III is the black sheep of the series. Everything about it feels different from the other four mainline entries. Gone is the silent, nameable protagonist. Gone is the tradition of obtaining one of the series' true runes at the start of the game. Gone are the fully controllable party members. Even the series' hallmark feature, base building, is very subdued in comparison to the other games. You don't really acquire your base until well over halfway through the game, and by that point you've likely recruited everybody already.

Most of the base building is done through the optional chapters where you control Thomas, who is perhaps the most bizarre departure from series norms in the entire game. Taking the slot of the "Tenkai Star," the slot usually reserved for the protagonist and oft described as the one who brings everyone together, Thomas is a demure, polite, and entirely ordinary young man who is by far the weakest playable lead in the entire game. It's as if he took the one non-combat trait of all of the previous and subsequent protagonists and ran with it, leaving the hero business to everyone else.


That's him on the right. Oh, Thomas, you lovable goofball.

As for the main heroes themselves, they're also a huge departure from series tradition. Not only do they talk (!) but there's three of them (!!) and you get to choose in what order to play each of their stories. Each one of their stories feels quite different from the others, and, despite playing out in the same land at the same time and covering the same course of events, the three of them rarely interact with one another until the three plotlines converge at the end of chapter 3. For a modern comparison, it's a lot like Yakuza 0.


There's an overarching story about an invading army and a mysterious masked villain, but Hugo, Geddoe, and Chris each see very, very different facets of this story. Hugo is a relatively aimless young boy from the rural Grasslands who learns to overcome his prejudices as his story progresses. Geddoe is a middle aged man who leads a unit of ragtag mercenaries. Chris is a renowned knight captain who struggles with the burdens of fame and the corruption within her home nation of Zexen. Each character's story makes the same world feel entirely different. Hugo feels the most helpless, as a tribesman with a terrible temper who is consistently placed in situations out of his element. Geddoe doesn't even really feel like a hero, and more like a man who's just out to get his job done. Chris comes off as cold and pompous, and with a lot of the baggage that you usually see in people with affluenza. Yet all three manage to feel like distinct "good guys." They may be atypical in several ways, but they circumvent genre tropes without resorting to the anti-hero cliche on the opposite side of the spectrum. Each lead character feels unique and fresh, even 13 or 14 years later. Even better, they all fit perfectly into the Suikoden universe, as if the side characters from previous games were suddenly thrust into the role of main hero.

My favorite part about the heroes in this game is that the story actually uses the traditional Suikoden setup to deconstruct player expectations. For you see, there was a typical Suikoden hero who managed to unite an army to fight the big bad army on the opposing side. You even get to name him. This "Flame Champion" is the real traditional hero of Suikoden III, but here's the kicker: his story was told fifty years ago. It's over. Instead of playing the main Suiko storyline of kicking an evil army's butt, you're playing the aftermath. All three new heroes end up searching for this mysterious Flame Champion throughout the game, and he becomes the connecting thread that binds them together. Hell, even his design look like the typical Suikoden hero.


Where the game succeeds in telling a compelling story in a new way, it also fails in several ways the previous games did not. Rather than having six controllable party members, you have three "sets" or "pairs" of fighters. You can only give commands to one in each pair at a time. It feels like a rather arbitrary limitation, and a massive step back from controlling an entire party in I, II, IV, and V. Even IV, which only allows four members at a time, feels better than III, because you have full control over each of them. Konami also decided to experiment with enemy and ally placement on the battlefield, allowing some spells to hurt your allies if they're within range. It's annoying, and adds nothing but frustration to the experience. Suikoden III, unfortunately, has the worst battle system in the series.

The step down in game design doesn't stop there. Many of the fields and dungeons are either massive corridors or open fields that stretch on for several screens. I fell asleep several times while exploring the different areas in this game. The army battles, another series staple, are known to change with each game, but their Suiko III incarnation is a simple board game that just results in your units auto-battling the enemy units in a typical fight. In all of the other games, each army battle had completely unique mechanics entirely removed from the normal battles in the game. Thankfully, duels are still in, and are the same as ever.

The music is also a huge step down. Almost EVERY track in the game is forgettable. Let me list the ones that aren't: Exceeding Love, Blade, and Beautiful Grasslands. Exceeding Love is the best opening in any game I've played to this day, so it compensates for the lackluster OST in a fairly heavy way, but it's not enough to redeem it for me. Most of the music is, like the dungeon crawling and battle system, boring.

Overall, my return to this game has left me a bit underwhelmed. I still enjoy it, and I still think it has a strong plot with an amazing multi-PoV system that I wish more games implemented. Playing it again 14 years later, however, its flaws only stand out even more. The graphics are ugly, the sound design is bad, the translation is bad at times, and the game part of the game is rather underwhelming.


As a Suikoden fan, I still loved seeing more of the world. One of Suiko III's biggest assets is in how it manages to feel like a direct sequel to the previous two entries despite being so different. Old characters return in new roles, and Harmonia, the world superpower only alluded to in previous entries, begins to take center stage for the first time. There's many twists and turns and revelations that will leave long-time fans of the universe very satisfied. However, it comes at the expense of the rest of the game not matching up to its story. As seen in the picture above, the Karaya clan that Hugo is a part of was mentioned way back in Suikoden II. The character you see there, Lucia, is also in this game. In fact, Hugo is her son!

As this was the last in line of my series of Suiko replays, If I were to recommend any order to play the Suikoden games, my new recommendation would be V - I - II - III, with IV and Tactics as extra sidestories, if you are so inclined to play a massively disconnected set of prequels. III is definitively the narrative climax of the series, and its appeal is in the story and characters and world. Marching through the mechanically superior games first will give you the attachment you need to appreciate this game for what it is.

Suikoden VI... maybe we'll see you continue the story someday. The series really only needed one more game to finish its loose ends. A man can dream, at least.
 

Aeana

Member
Suikoden 3 is great. I think that its reputation suffers a lot for being directly after 2, but it has so many great parts, great characters, great scenes, great music. And the trinity sight system is just wonderful (and the final route!!).
 

Ferrio

Banned
There's so many great character designs in III, especially the female cast. Geddoe's whole group was amazing. I always hated the backlash the game got, because I thought it was brilliant outside a few frustrating things like backtracking and the Thomas chapters.

I loved the trinity system too, reminded me a lot of Wild Arms 1.
 

Taruranto

Member
I honestly remember nothing about Suikoden III except that the last part of the game sorta gets messy plot-wise (I think because Murayama left?) and it took me a while to get an hang of the battle system. I think it's the only Suikoden that I would consider borderline "hard".
 

jb1234

Member
I remember being disappointed by III after II because the story and characters aren't nearly as memorable. The entire game feels very emotionally reserved, the battle system sucks and the backtracking is RELENTLESS.

There were things I liked about it (enough to finish it) but I'm having trouble remembering them over a decade later, haha.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
If you didn't make Hugo the flame champion we can't be cool
The game pushes him as the canon choice very hard. You get extra scenes if you choose either of the other two, though. Hugo is also my least favorite of the three, so...
 
Sounds like you didn't understand the battle system OP, which makes sense given that every other game in the series except for Tactics can be completed with little other than auto battle for every fight.

In Suikoden 3 you actually have to plan out your character placement and consider unit movement and combat decisions. You may as well complain about combat in Final Fantasy Tactics for not being like FF7. It is actually a great system, but if you want to thoughtlessly breeze through combat as you could in Suikoden 2, then it isn't going to be your cup of tea.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Sounds like you didn't understand the battle system OP, which makes sense given that every other game in the series except for Tactics can be completed with little other than auto battle for every fight.

In Suikoden 3 you actually have to plan out your character placement and consider unit movement and combat decisions. You may as well complain about combat in Final Fantasy Tactics for not being like FF7. It is actually a great system, but if you want to thoughtlessly breeze through combat as you could in Suikoden 2, then it isn't going to be your cup of tea.
I understand it just fine, I just didn't enjoy it. V has what I'd consider the best battle system in the franchise.
 

neohwa

Junior Member
The anime intro was the best in the series. Too bad the rest of the game didn't match up to the greatness imo. I didn't want any of those 3 to become the flame champion either.
 

Amirnol

Member
This game was my intro to the series and it is still my favorite of all the games, except I haven't played V. How does that game hold up these days?
 
I think Suiko 3 is the one with my longest /played.... My Geddoe had a pretty high amount of kills. Over 4000 maybe? 6000? I think Suiko 5 is the longest....pretty sure I reached the end of S3 around 80-100 hours but S5 was like 120 hours. But, maybe because the combat is so damn slow haha, I spent so much more time leveling up all my characters in S3.

Things I love about it
- my favorite ports, merchant shops, etc art: was quite fond of the Zexen architecture.
- maybe my favorite farm village in a game (or at least this side of Witcher 3's sun-crested villages hhhh)
- the Alma Kinan village music q_q
- skill system was pretty great coming from S2
- the Frontier Defense Force story, cast, and Geddoe

I'm pretty fond of the story, too. Less so the antagonists and their plot: never really fond of Luc, Yuber's appearance, etc. And, Thomas always left me mixed. Found in annoying in some ways but also kinda fun in a sort of Harry Potter underdog way. Either way, I'm quite fond of the core story: the general Flame Bringer story, becoming the Champion, the Harmonia invasion, etc was pretty good.
 

MCD

Junior Member
Loved everything but Thomas.

Actually no. I hate everything about this game because we will never see a sequel. :(
 

jb1234

Member
Just a fair warning...the game has a slow start, but when you get past it, the game takes off into overdrive and is a hell of a ride.

He made it past Hugo's first chapter he should be good lol

Haha. Suikoden V's slow start reminds me of the Trails in the Sky games, in that it is necessary to set up all the plot and character relationships before things go completely to hell. I don't think the game would have the same crushing impact without those first eight hours.
 

BriGuy

Member
I liked it overall (even if I don't find fashionista Yuber as threatening as I did in previous games), but I would be lying if I said I want disappointed coming off of S2. It's a real grind at times.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
I really did not like the game part of Suikoden 3 at all. While the plot, setting, and characters were good, the actual game was awful. The battle system felt flat out incomplete, where position of your party members mattered, but you had no actual way to control where they would go. The dungeons were litterally just straight corridors. The world felt both incredibly small and empty. Movement around the world was painfully slow, and you unlocked teleportation relatively late into the game. The Trinity Sight System just made the game feel disjointed too (Though following a guide on the "Correct" order to do the parts helped). Even the music is fairly weak compared to the rest of the series, with there only being a few standout tracks (The game would have benefited a lot from a more energetic song for Budehuc Castle). Alma Kinan Village did have a really good track, but I recall spending very little time there.

I am suprised with how people in general aren't bothered by these aspects at all, for me they cumulated to make it a really unpleasant game.
 
I loved Suikoden 1 and 2. I remember getting 3 when it came out and being completely disappointed and it soured me on the series after that. Never ended up trying any of the PS2 games. I should really go back and try it as an adult.
 

Rad-

Member
Maybe the worst camera in any video game ever. Really hated it and it's still the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about the game.

Overall the game was decent but nowhere near 2 and 5. I'd rate the series 2 > 5 > 3 > 1 > 4.
 

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
I should play these games, huh? Always been kinda turned-off due to the apparent lack of series resolution. :/
 
Haha. Suikoden V's slow start reminds me of the Trails in the Sky games, in that it is necessary to set up all the plot and character relationships before things go completely to hell. I don't think the game would have the same crushing impact without those first eight hours.
Yeah I think it's important it takes the time to do all that. Same with the lull during Rainwall.

It's a different sort of slow start than III, too. Suiko 3 can be a bit tiresome or slow mostly because of gameplay reasons. I mean, the Hugo segment in the mine is annoying, but most of the slow start is fairly involved already plot-wise. The main trouble is how darn slow the game plays: the back-and-forth through that damn forest, the slow battles, etc.

In Suiko 5, the gameplay of the first 8 hours is still pretty fast -- most of the 'dungeons' really aren't that big. It's just genuinely you do a lot of 'busywork' to normalize the current environment and create some attachment.

Not that you have to take that long... I mean, look Suiko 2 start. Or, something like Chapter 1 of FF Tactics. Varying levels of 'busywork' before something causes the protagonist to go 'on the run.' But for Suiko 5, I do think it can justify taking longer just because those opening scenes create a lot of different threads. In FFT or S2, there are maybe 2 main lines of attachment being created, mostly to a brother figure and a sister figure. In Suiko 5 they're setting up that but also parental stuff and a couple 'mysteries' that are pretty important later, too. And, obviously the importance of the Rune, too. So I thought the length of the start was OK to try really establish so many parts of the story.
 
Alma Kinan was actually one of my favorite parts of the entire game, particularly the parts with Chris and Yun.

When I first played the game I guess I was too distracted from it not feeling like Suikoden at all so I didn't feel involved or attached to the characters or plot at all and I just did not enjoy it.

When I replayed it fairly recently years after the series was essentially dead, I guess I was much more accepting of its differences because I got into the game a lot more and I ended up liking it just as much as 5. It probably helped that I played on an emulator and fast-forwarded through all those back-and-forth through those empty map portions and also my second time was with the Japanese version. Going back and looking at the English version afterwards, it became apparent that the translation was pretty subpar. The text feels a bit dry and I don't feel it really captures the characters personalities very well. I remember thinking Chris was dry and boring my first time through but she was my favorite character on my second time through.

That said, I still wouldn't want to replay that game without an emulator lol
 

IrishNinja

Member
i wish i dug III like others did; as was said, it felt like a huge step down after 2. i liked what it was going for, it just never quite came together for me - oddly, the manga made me dig the story a bit more.

ive still not had the hear to play 4/Tactics yet, but 5 was an amazing send-off. this game will forever be burned in my mind as the one i spent 100+ hours trying to find the 108th star, and it's an asshole in the forest you need to have an open party slot to get. UGH.
 
If you couldn't tell by my avatar, I'm obviously biased. I've been a fan of the Genso Suikoden since I was a kid and I loved every single entry to the main series like they were my children. I can acknowledge that certain games have faults but at the end of the day, I love them all the same. That being said if I were to take off my nostalgia glasses, I could see how the transition from Suikoden II to Suikoden III can be a bit jarring. In fact, the in game graphics are easily the weakest of the series. I did enjoy what they did with the party battle system and appreciated that leveling up other party members actually effected war battles. My biggest compliant is that we never got to see the Safir clan or at the very least anyone from there. Especially after they were so extensively talked about in game.

Overall, I think I tend to agree with you that time has been the least kindest to Suikoden III and it is perhaps the most underwhelming of all the series, but for fans of the series the story is still worth it. I still love it solely on the basis that we got to follow what happens to various characters after Suikoden II. Admittedly, I found it weird how Yuber went from a badass knight to Michael Jackson wannabe. Though even that is easily forgiven because he still looks pretty badass in a suit.

I love the music collection version of that
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgbtLFMuMvs
The music collection had some downright jams. Some other good ones is the Stupid ducks theme, and Great Hollow Salasa remix
 
Sounds like you didn't understand the battle system OP, which makes sense given that every other game in the series except for Tactics can be completed with little other than auto battle for every fight.

In Suikoden 3 you actually have to plan out your character placement and consider unit movement and combat decisions. You may as well complain about combat in Final Fantasy Tactics for not being like FF7. It is actually a great system, but if you want to thoughtlessly breeze through combat as you could in Suikoden 2, then it isn't going to be your cup of tea.

Really nice passive aggressive insults there.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Overall, I think I tend to agree with you that time has been the least kindest to Suikoden III and it is perhaps the most underwhelming of all the series, but for fans of the series the story is still worth it. I still love it solely on the basis that we got to follow what happens to various characters after Suikoden II. Admittedly, I found it weird how Yuber went from a badass knight to Michael Jackson wannabe. Though even that is easily forgiven because he still looks pretty badass in a suit.
I remember reading his wardrobe change was because the dev team had trouble rendering his bulky black armor in 3D at the time. So we ended up going from this

latest


to this

newcospagesample_yuberjacketbig.jpg


I agree, though. Weird, but not bad. He rocks the new outfit really well.

It's things like Yuber taking center stage that make me love the story in this game so much. In the first two games he's a background entity (albeit a very interesting one) but here he's a major villain. I was a bit upset at the absence of Pesmerga, though.

The Safir clan omission only stuck out to me on this recent playthrough. They are mentioned quite a bit, but we never see them. :/

I still get a bit giddy whenever I recruit Futch in this game. You get to watch him grow from a punk pre-teen to a fully capable man from I -> II -> III. I was sad Humphrey wasn't with him this time, but since the timeskip between II and III is fifteen years it did make sense that the two wouldn't travel together for that long.

I should play these games, huh? Always been kinda turned-off due to the apparent lack of series resolution. :/
There's no massive cliffhangers or anything like in Trails. Each game is self contained, but enriched with knowledge of the others. There are underlying plot threads in each game about the missing Harmonian bishop, the ultimate fate of the true runes, the final conflict between Yuber and Pesmerga, the disappearance of the Sindar civilization, and so on, but none of it is ever related to the story being told at the time. It's more like, "oh, it would be really cool to know what this is all about." The world building shot too high and wasn't able to get to each of the places and events it mentions, but each game's story is complete regardless.
 

CEJames

Member
Suikoden 3 is great. I think that its reputation suffers a lot for being directly after 2, but it has so many great parts, great characters, great scenes, great music. And the trinity sight system is just wonderful (and the final route!!).

3 was my first one so couldn't compare it to 2 which most say is amazing. However, I still loved 3 nonetheless. 4 sucked. 5 was great too.
 

ffvorax

Member
Maybe i was too hyped to play it, but last year I did and I didn't liked it much as the first 2 games.

2>1>5>3>4 for me.

Also I didn't managed to finish the game, I tried to defeat the final boss many times and grinded a bit, but at last I got bored and gived up... :p

Saw the ending on youtube.
 

aravuus

Member
I could never get more than an hour or two into this. It's just such a slog to play, everything is slow and meandering from moving around to navigating the menus. Oh and the camera is just awful. Maybe I'll play it again when I'm old.

Suikoden 5 though, there's a game I really need to finish some day. I always get like 10 hours into it and then drop it for some reason. It's curious, it took me like 5 attempts to finally get into Suikoden 2 and when I finally finished it, I loved it. But still I've never managed to finish another game in the series.
 
Maybe I was a bit disappointed with this game at first when I tried to play it back in the day. But man, that opening music... still gives me chills. And after taking a break, restarting, and finally getting some steam through the slow first parts and backtracking of Chris and Hugo, the game is great.
 

Spman2099

Member
I am a big fan of Suikoden 3. Unfortunately, it's graphical presentation will continue to age poorly. It is just from that era where polygonal graphics were largely still pretty rough.

I can see why Suikoden 2 is the fan favorite, but I still think Suikoden 3 does a better job of using its cast of characters. I also think the skill system was an awesome addition.

Such a great game...
 

Paertan

Member
Liked it when I played it even if I was a little disappointed about how different it was from previous games with no real world map and such.

Replayed it two years ago and loved it. It is a great game indeed. The army battles are the worst in the series. Really wished they would have done something more like Suikoden 2. Glad they went back to it in later games.

The trinity sight system was cool and really did a good job at showing how it is not black and white in the Suikoden games. Evil and good is a matter of perspective.

The characters in the game are really great with Chris being one of my favorite game characters ever.

Will probably replay it again sometime.
 
Ah, Suikoden. One of my favorite series ever. I've written about it countless times. I've gushed about its intricately designed world. I've praised its down-to-earth, rustic atmosphere. I've lauded how its game design still stands out as unique in the RPG genre, even today. I've even cataloged a brief synopsis on what makes each region so interesting. Even Suikoden IV, the worst entry in the series according to basically everybody, was a game I enjoyed simply due to being able to see more of the Suikoden world.

I always liked how different areas in the original Suikoden seemed to draw on different real world cultures. I liked it in II as well. But, looking at the series as a whole, it's a little strange that each of these countries would have discrete Asian vs. Western subdivisions within them.
 
My only large issues with III is the pair up system in battle, and the lack of traversable over world.

Otherwise it's a great entry into a wonderful series. Everyone should play it.
 
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