BlazinSkatinAxel
Member
That racism dying off.
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Rural America Is the New Inner City (WSJ)
- Thread starter kirblar
- Start date
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Sure but the fundamental problem is population based
hydrophilic attack
Member
citation needed
fredrancour
Member
Yeah, can't even run a govt elder care program if a local population doesn't have enough potential caregivers.
Of course there are. But how do you help people who are in deep Red counties in deep Red states in a currently Red country? People want to help them, Clinton wanted to help them, Bernie wanted to help them, Obama wanted to help them etc, etc. But the deeper you are in the midst and in the power of people that want to burn your life down, it's hard to reach you, you know?
It's like a drowning man who starts flailing and drags his rescuer down with him not like someone pissing on you when you're on fire.
I'm kinda in that situation myself here in WV tbh
Cymbal Head
Banned
The implied alternative, that sympathy is earned by voting for the correct political party, seems pretty morally abhorrent to me.
Edit: and even then, as noted above, you're still throwing up to 49 percent of these areas under the bus because of the aggregate decision of the population as a whole.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I won't say they're stupid but I will say their voting patterns are consistent enough that it's clear a very different set of prioritizations is taking place
Growing up in rural Oregon I am seeing the baby boomer generation die off to health problems from a lifetime of drug/alcohol/tobacco use. Larger farming conglomerates take over the properties and the children move to sub/urban areas. It is just the inevitable path society has taken.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
But that's my whole point. THOSE people are still Rural America. We even have progressive gaffers from Rural America.
I have zero intention of making some bullshit "few bad apples" analogy, because yes most of Rural America will vote R. But don't forget about those Rural Americans who are effectively trapped. Think how much it has to fucking suck for them?
I don't want Rural American to become synonymous with Bigot.
I honestly don't have a short term answer, and it sucks. I just want people to remember that. There are people who don't "need to be convinced" who live out in Rural counties. Those people (like yourself) just seem like victims of this situation, through and through.
Captain Zyrain
Member
I was wondering if big business would just buy up the land as people die, using it for MegaFarms(tm) or heck, doing nothing with it to make sure city real estate prices stay high? Play the long game.
Interesting article. Confirms when I have observed as well. Young smart kids tend to go to the big cities. Drop outs stay behind. Hardly anyone raises a family anymore and what families there are are in poverty.
Also even though my relatives THINK the cities are crime ridden shit holes it's the exact opposite. I go to the country and I feel like I step back in time. I live next to the "ghetto" as they think and it's far better than where they live. They have been hit by multiple robberies as well.
Makes it worse that rural crimes go largerly unsolved. Rural police departments are not equipped to handle it
Also even though my relatives THINK the cities are crime ridden shit holes it's the exact opposite. I go to the country and I feel like I step back in time. I live next to the "ghetto" as they think and it's far better than where they live. They have been hit by multiple robberies as well.
Makes it worse that rural crimes go largerly unsolved. Rural police departments are not equipped to handle it
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Grew up and lived almost 2/3rds my life in rural Michigan. It was garbage. Full of bigots. Glad to never go back.
What exactly do you want from us? We offer them help for years and they slap us with Trump. Now they're okay with their elected leaders lying about easily proved shit, attacking journalists, and full-on corruption. Why should we be nice to people who go out of their way to hurt us?
Probably a combo of:
-huge automated farms
-rural villas for the rich (like Rome!) in the picturesque areas
-these areas will become more populated once climate refugees are forced to move inwards by coastal flooding, creating a whole new set of problems and resentment
It's not enough though. Unless you actively subsidize jobs (which is nothing but a temporary solution at best) like a public works program no businesses are going to be opening up in areas with terminal population decline no matter what either party sells you.
There's no land shortage in the US; on the contrary, there are millions and millions of acres that sit around entirely unused that you could buy for scraps if you were so inclined. But why would you? No one wants to live there.
My area has recently had the trend of people retire from (california, eastern sea board) urban life and taking over small farms, but not enough to fully counter population decline. All they really do is drive up the price of land because of their greater disposable income.
Nah, you're not gonna frame the argument on those bullshit terms. Sympathy is reciprocated when one shows some consideration for more than one's own egotistical predicament. I thought I was being a good guy when I voted in their best interests, despite not walking in their shoes. Too bad they can't manage to do the same for themselves, I guess? If I accept your premise that these people are not stupid, am I supposed to keep feeling bad for people who can feel heat and still choose to walk into fire?
Cymbal Head
Banned
This is...actually exactly what I'm talking about. Smug tribalism won't win anyone to your side. And if you're not concerned with winning people to your side, you're not interested in building any kind of political power.
I hope your self-righteousness is some comfort to you when we get president Dog the Bounty Hunter in 2020.
There are legitimate reasons to despise many stripes of Republican voters. But I'm specifically addressing the particular rhetorical move that says people deserve to be immiserated because they live in a red district.
Here's one of the great graphs from the article:
We are winning people to our side, but they're not in rural areas, because those people refuse to vote for Dems.
Yep... no sympathy here. About time rural America feels the consequence of continually voting against their best interests.
Adding to my above post, with that system you have people who don't even have to move to the city to make a decent living. Set up a weekly Farmer's Market/Flea Market/Crafts Market in the hub town. With the train that making that one stop between the two cities, City folk would have convenient access to such events instead of having to drive for hours out to the country.
That's new money flowing into their small town economies.
That's new money flowing into their small town economies.
Oh it will because at that point rural america will be completely and utterly doomed. If they'd rather spite me than save themselves then let's sink the ship. America has become a victim of darwinism. I hope the next superpower doesn't have a population so easily willing to put a gun to its head.
therealist
Member
The Republicans own the government now so it is their jobs to fix rural america since what they campaigned on. In 4/8 years when nothing is done, the Dems can make up BS about how they are going to add jobs and then get elected. Rural America is just getting used for votes just like inner cities are being used for votes.
It's the classic strategy of taking advantage of people who are too uneducated to understand the world and are just looking for any sign of hope from a political candidate.
Muppet of a Man
Member
I wish it wasn't, but for most on the liberal side, it already is. I want to help all struggling people, but it is extremely hard when the majority of people in these places want no one's help and actively denounce and try to undermine anyone who attempts to. They are in denial. They need outside help. The people who are trapped will likely need to take some drastic measures to escape if things keep trending in the current direction. Looking for work in a liberal city or suburb is a start. Also, leveraging free or highly subsidized public higher education where available could be another road to escape.
Captain Zyrain
Member
Why the huge across the board drop from 06 to 16?
Are we getting to Europe levels of not reproducing ourselves already?
No. '08 recession.
j_k_redtail
Member
Absolutely. Fully sympathetic to their plight, but elections have consequences. They needed to vote for better candidates and policies.
Great Recession.
Quoted for truth.
I'm not even that far from the city, about an 1 1/2 hour drive, and some places are straight up desolate.
And even the places that aren't that bad, the first thing you notice is the amount of older people compared to the youth. The malls in this area look like they aren't even open when you go look inside, there's abandoned plaza's everywhere where nothing was ever rebuilt and the only thing left is hollowed out K-mart's that are also on their way out.
Places like this, its like their stuck dying forever.
And what's even worse is watching kids grow up in these areas, where there is literally nothing to do besides each other and drugs. No opportunities, no new experiences, not even a YMCA anymore. It seems like for many, it's either you get out ASAP, or your stuck here for life.
Fine by me. I'm going to school strictly to get my degree and then sweep up some land in some slightly rural parts of America.
As harsh and insensitive as it may seem, I really do not give a shit about the greater majority of rural America apart from the beautiful landscape it has.
Having lived in rural areas, the generalizations of the people come out to be true more often than not. Often racist, homophobic, just the absolute opposite of folks that happened to grow up in a large city. Now, rural America's opinion of some white members on this site may be completely different, but my experience as a black man in rural areas of Missouri and Illinois is not one that I am impressed with. That is why I have this viewpoint.
Give me the land and not the emotional and threatened baggage that many of the folks have.
Living in urban environments is the cool thing to do now because you can walk to a bar around the corner from your apartment and grab groceries from Whole Foods afterwards. That is why black urban environments are being decimated by cultural assimilation and gentrification. Many whites that have money and their bigoted views are interested in moving into more urban environments so that they can exploit the luxury of having everything close by.
Judging from the post that I wrote above this one, you're probably wondering why I want to live in a countryside where my neighbors, although spread apart, will be bigoted Trump supporters. Well, it's just a personal goal have my own property that I can develop and have on top of the property that my family already has. Who knows, maybe that land will be invested in and I can cash it out.
As harsh and insensitive as it may seem, I really do not give a shit about the greater majority of rural America apart from the beautiful landscape it has.
Having lived in rural areas, the generalizations of the people come out to be true more often than not. Often racist, homophobic, just the absolute opposite of folks that happened to grow up in a large city. Now, rural America's opinion of some white members on this site may be completely different, but my experience as a black man in rural areas of Missouri and Illinois is not one that I am impressed with. That is why I have this viewpoint.
Give me the land and not the emotional and threatened baggage that many of the folks have.
No one wants to live there because it isn't openly available to access.
Living in urban environments is the cool thing to do now because you can walk to a bar around the corner from your apartment and grab groceries from Whole Foods afterwards. That is why black urban environments are being decimated by cultural assimilation and gentrification. Many whites that have money and their bigoted views are interested in moving into more urban environments so that they can exploit the luxury of having everything close by.
Judging from the post that I wrote above this one, you're probably wondering why I want to live in a countryside where my neighbors, although spread apart, will be bigoted Trump supporters. Well, it's just a personal goal have my own property that I can develop and have on top of the property that my family already has. Who knows, maybe that land will be invested in and I can cash it out.
The death of rural america is due to historical economic forces which have been ongoing for over hundred years in the US. Nothing either side could have done to stop it. Republican side of the argument is more of a band aid style path to quick and dirty ripping it off fast and hope the pain isn't so bad. Democrats are basically selling the slow and steady pain of tearing it off centimeter at a time and let these community slowly drift away.
Either way these areas are dead and would have been dead regardless of whether or not you had a democrat in office or a republican in office for the last 20 years. Mass urbanization is something that has been happening for a really long time, we've just hit terminal decline on a reality we've known was coming for multiple generations.
CitizenVectron
Member
San Fran is a bit of an exception. Most major cities have affordable homes/places.
Captain Zyrain
Member
Wow, it had that big of an impact? Was it from people having less kids, or more people dying?
.. or both I guess. I had two kids in that time frame, so I did my part (and I didn't even die!).
I suppose the Baby Boomers probably started their die-off during that time frame as well, which should continue for the next couple of cycles.
Just eyeballing that graph looks like it was around a -0.4 decline everywhere from 06-16, it just seems like the Rural areas were historically much smaller to begin with.
It's getting worse in most of them due to NIMBYism - Seattle's a big exception on that front. San Fran's an outlier (along w/ NYC) due to the land area issues.
Thats what they deserve, in fact they deserve even worse.
Likely less kids.
Yeah these people need help but they need to bootstrap themselves *just* enough to admit the last few generations were misguided and there are people out there who CAN help them even if it seems dumb to them
Honestly that's why I hope the entire Republican Party is compromised in some way, or at least the majority. Seeing that these people weren't ACTUALLY helping them at all and were potentially even working with Russia may be enough to cause a policital ideology shift amongst the younger generations in those communities
Wow it really is the new "inner city" SMH
San Francisco, if it had not been so conservative since the 60's could have easily had twice the amount of bedrooms as it currently has with the same green belt limitations.
Cymbal Head
Banned
A lot of people have been mobilized in the last 6 months or so, but the animating impulse seems to almost universally be anti-Trumpism. Will those gains last once he's out of office?
I'm not sure what the motivation behind this post is, but I agree in a sense: prejudice against poor whites is fast becoming as acceptable on the Democratic side as prejudice against poor minorities is on the Republican.
I think your time and energy would be better spent criticizing the rhetorical approach of right leaning politicians and their supporters and thinking about how that informs their policy making because that's the actual reason these people are suffering.
Rural != Poor. Trump's voters were generally better off, they just don't live in cities!
You can't do anything to help them anyways. Rural america /is/ dying, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. The only thing we can do is make the transition to mass urbanization more harmonious.
And Republicans are the least likely to concern themselves that as well, so.
This fact and the generally honest answer the democrats provide as a solutions. "Your community is dying, get retraining and ditch the community" is A reason why the Dems are loosing nationally.
Captain Tuttle
Member
Nope. Just moving to the cities where the jobs are