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Saudi Arabia & Iran sever ties after execution of top Shia reformist cleric

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brian577

Banned

Maybe 100 years ago, today going to war is not something that is done on a whim. There are a thousand consequences for doing so and the benefits better outweigh the negatives. Russia didn't go to war with Turkey over a dead soldier and Iran sure as hell isn't going for a dead cleric the Saudis have had for years.
 

Suen

Member
Hezbollah wants to create an Iranian-like state. They are prepared to murder and bomb to get that, sounds a damn shade like ISIS.
Sounds similar to US and some of its western allies the past century in Middle East. I think you're on to something.
 

injurai

Banned
Maybe 100 years ago, today going to war is not something that is done on a whim. There are a thousand consequences for doing so and the benefits better outweigh the negatives.

The single death is always just a tipping point for hundreds of reasons that two nation's already want to go to war.
 
You're delusional if you think Hezbollah is even close to the shitbags that are ISIS.
Both are idiotic islamist radicals the only difference is ISIS will vanish before Hezboloah,

Any country on earth that has an armed Miltia aside from a legal army is bound to fail,
Take Lebanon for example it's not enough that poor Lebanon didn't have a President since 2014, such an embarrassing situation. Whenever there are such failures search for what's odd in this country.
 
This isn't really what happened. History doesn't go: a leads to b.

The overthrow played a part but its not in vacuum and the single cause and effect.

And it pretends that nothing happened between the 50s and late 70s.

I'm not sure what you mean. Shah's opulent lifestyle combined with suppression of religion, bad economics, and wholesale importation of western culture and transposing it into Iran caused the students to revolt, leading in an Islamic revolution.
 
Hezbollah wants to create an Iranian-like state. They are prepared to murder and bomb to get that, sounds a damn shade like ISIS.
They have the manpower and military might to have taken over Lebanon a long time ago. They haven't. When Hezbollah starts taking over cities, beheading anyone who opposes them left and right, literally enslaving and selling women and minorities, destroying ancient landmarks for no reason, infiltrating into other nations and massacring hundreds of civilians, etc etc, then come talk to me.

As of now, they don't hold a candle to the shit ISIS has done.
 
Jesus, read the link I just posted. Many homosexuals are being PRESSURED to change their gender, when they are comfortable in their own skin. You are beginning to tire me with your constant goal post moving, post something of substance or don't post at all.
So your litmus test for good or bad is a country's treatment gays? I guess that makes pre-1967 UK just as bad as Iran (and Nazi Germany for that sake), since homosexual acts was illegal and punishments included things like chemical castration (often leading to suicide.)
 

diamount

Banned
They have the manpower and military might to have taken over Lebanon a long time ago. They haven't. When Hezbollah starts taking over cities, beheading anyone who opposes them left and right, literally enslaving and selling women and minorities, destroying ancient landmarks for no reason, infiltrating into other nations and massacring hundreds of civilians, etc etc, then come talk to me.

As of now, they don't hold a candle to the shit ISIS has done.

They would do that if the tables were reversed, quite happily. You think they would give a shit about lopping an Jew's head off, and selling his wife into slavery? They are a terrorist group, ISIS is a terrorist group because they do their atrocities at a higher scale does not make them any less as bad.

So your litmus test for good or bad is a country's treatment gays? I guess that makes pre-1967 UK just as bad as Iran (and Nazi Germany for that sake), since homosexual acts was illegal and punishments included things like chemical castration (often leading to suicide.)

Yes, it does. Except it's not pre-1967 now and homosexual rights have never been better in the West. Well, nobody advocates their stoning, hanging or beheading though. In public, because that is illegal.
 
They would do that if the tables were reversed, quite happily. You think they would give a shit about lopping an Jew's head off, and selling his wife into slavery? They are a terrorist group, ISIS is a terrorist group because they do their atrocities at a higher scale does not make them any less as bad
You didn't really address much of what I said. You and another poster made a statement that Hezbollah and ISIS are legitimately no different than each other when that couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm not sure what 'tables' you're referring to, but taken as is today at the present, they have not committed anything remotely close to what ISIS is doing. Saying 'you don't think they would if given the chance!?' doesn't change that.
 

diamount

Banned
You didn't really address much of what I said. You and another poster made a statement that Hezbollah and ISIS are legitimately no different than each other when that couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm not sure what 'tables' you're referring to, but taken as is today at the present, they have not committed anything remotely close to what ISIS is doing. Saying 'you don't think they would if given the chance!?' doesn't change that.

What needs addressing man, seriously? Both groups have their goal as establishing an Islamic state with an Islamic legal system. What part of that are you disputing? Hezbollah have quite history of committing those acts, they don't happen as much because yeah they aren't as big. But they would if they didn't have a strong force holding them down, like the IDF and before you start I do not advocate the IDF's actions in that matter either.
 

Suen

Member
Where did I hold the western powers as a beacon of virtue?
You didn't, but would you call them "a damn shade like ISIS"? I'll assure you majority won't even if the numbers of dead caused by their actions would probably comfortably exceed that of ISIS. You'll have to do better than say "they want an Iranian style governance" which by the way they could have easily done in areas they have huge influence in if they wanted it already. Similarly some militias or groups that are Sunni oriented often have regional objectives as well, often (but not always) limited to their borders. Calling for example some Libyan militias or Yemeni southern seperatist (labeled as the Yemeni "govt") funded by GCC as bad as ISIS would be equally stupid.
 

diamount

Banned
You didn't, but would you call them "a damn shade like ISIS"? I'll assure you majority won't even if the numbers of dead caused by their actions would probably comfortably exceed that of ISIS. You'll have to do better than say "they want an Iranian style governance" which by the way they could have easily done in areas they have huge influence in if they wanted it already. Similarly some militias or groups that are Sunni oriented often have regional objectives as well, often (but not always) limited to their borders. Calling for example some Libyan militias or Yemeni southern seperatist (labeled as the Yemeni "govt") funded by GCC as bad as ISIS would be equally stupid.

Again, I don't remember labeling all militias as terrorist groups. It only takes a few radical individuals to spread their rhetoric and goals for that group changes to establishing their own nation, not-so-different from the one they're fighting. Only this time they are in charge.
 

Suen

Member
They would do that if the tables were reversed, quite happily. You think they would give a shit about lopping an Jew's head off, and selling his wife into slavery? They are a terrorist group, ISIS is a terrorist group because they do their atrocities at a higher scale does not make them any less as bad.
oh we're playing this game alright. If the world wasn't watching Israel then their slow ethnic genocide of Palestinians would only be the first step. They'd nuke every Muslim country and chop the head off any Muslim survivor. That's it. Israel is as bad as ISIS.

They have the manpower and military might to have taken over Lebanon a long time ago. They haven't. When Hezbollah starts taking over cities, beheading anyone who opposes them left and right, literally enslaving and selling women and minorities, destroying ancient landmarks for no reason, infiltrating into other nations and massacring hundreds of civilians, etc etc, then come talk to me.

As of now, they don't hold a candle to the shit ISIS has done.
It's such a simple point but why even bother.
 
What needs addressing man, seriously? Both groups have their goal as establishing an Islamic state with an Islamic legal system. What part of that are you disputing? Hezbollah have quite history of committing those acts, they don't happen as much because yeah they aren't as big. But they would if they didn't have a strong force holding them down, like the IDF and before you start I do not advocate the IDF's actions in that matter either.
Because I've researched a lot about the region and the history of it and I disagree with lumping the two groups together into the same pot. Like I said in the other post, they haven't even done a vast majority of actions that ISIS has. That alone is enough to distinguish them from ISIS. Even if their goal is to establish an Islamic system, they haven't resorted to extreme and brutal violence against their own people to achieve it. Hell they haven't even implemented any actions or vocalized the intentions of creating an Islamic state. You're focusing on the Islamic state part when I specifically was addressing the atrocities that ISIS has done and how Hezbollah hasn't done anything of the sort.

They more than possess the capability to take over Lebanon right now. Hezbollah as a group isn't small. From what I've read they're 50,000 to 100,000 militants, and they haven't. You just can't say they're the same thing dude...it's not black and white like that.
 

diamount

Banned
oh we're playing this game alright. If the world wasn't watching Israel then their slow ethnic genocide of Palestinians would only be the first step. They'd nuke every Muslim country and chop the head off any Muslim survivor. That's it. Israel is as bad as ISIS.

It's such a simple point but why even bother.

Yes, they evil Zionist-owned media must not be reporting Israel's mass beheading, drownings and executions of those Palestinians. You're risking so much giving us that information.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
It's strange seeing 2 autocratic regimes not get along.

I think historically the medes, persians, and chaldeans all spent a good bit of their time trying to bumrush the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Nothing new there its like Cush vs Egypt before everything became the ottoman empire. Probably no love lost regardless of the recent events.
 

Suen

Member
Again, I don't remember labeling all militias as terrorist groups. It only takes a few radical individuals to spread their rhetoric and goals for that group changes to establishing their own nation, not-so-different from the one they're fighting. Only this time they are in charge.
You didn't but said militias still want to establish their own form of governance or rule, making them defacto "a damn shade like ISIS" according to your very own post. Stop arguing against yourself. I don't care why you hate Hezbollah in specific so much or the fact that you even hate them. Calling them as bad as ISIS is stupid. End.
 

ASIS

Member
Yes there was an Arab Spring, but the Kingdom of Saud has near total control over the country and stopped it from becoming an Egypt or Libya. They also helped Bahrain put down their own uprising. It wasn't as widely reported in the West because SA is a major US ally. Also, Saudi Arabia is perhaps the greatest source of funding from a country for many Islamist terror groups. This is not new and has been known for a while. They may not do it 'officially' especially now, but yes, they did support Al-Qaeda and ISIS before it started killing journalists and whatnot. Maybe they're still getting funds, hard to say for sure. Just like it's hard to say exactly how much Iran funds Hezbollah.

Also, Yemen is essentially a puppet of the SA, they were going to intervene whether they were officially asked to or not. Just like Russia intervened in Ukraine as the Pro-Russian government fell. My point being that all it did was increase anti-SA sentiment among the Houthi's and Shia even more. This posturing between Saudi Arabia and Iran will only destabilize an already unstable region. Various countries have sizable majority or minority populations of Sunni/Shia etc. Even SA itself has millions of Shia citizens. Let's hope it doesn't escalate beyond this.
Al Qaeda I understand, but ISIS? is there any proof that SA supported them?
 
How will this affect the oil price?

I always wonder why Iran change its name from Persia. Isn't Persia a much more renowned name?
The word Iran is very old and has nothing with Islam or Arabs. It means Land of Aryans (Irananis race) and has been used from Sasania Empire (about 200,300 CE) and even before that. It had another names like Persia too and I like that name, but I think Iran is beautiful too. :)
 

rrvv

Member
I always wonder why Iran change its name from Persia. Isn't Persia a much more renowned name?

Persia is western created name. Yet people in "Persia" never really use that name.

It just matter of national identity really.
 

ZiZ

Member
American cops kill people on the street, so how is US different than ISIS? What kind of stupid analogy is that?

Yes, Iran treats homosexuals awfully but them being executed for their sexuality has been rare. On the other hand Iran has more progressive laws concerning transsexuals, offering them a sex change operation if they choose so. Women's rights in Iran is not comparable to Scandinavia but still damn far better than SA. Women are allowed to drive, vote, get university degrees, have positions in the government, etc.

More importantly Iranian citizens do not fund ISIS and Al Qaeda.

Women in Saudi Arabia can vote, get University degrees, have positions in the government,etc.

The biggest University in the country is an all female University. The government pays girls a monthly stipend to go to university.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Women in Saudi Arabia can vote, get University degrees, have positions in the government,etc.

The biggest University in the country is an all female University. The government pays girls a monthly stipend to go to university.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Wonder how all those Saudi women will partake in those activities(or even get to the voting booth/school/government job) if they don't have their male guardian's permission.

Yup, Saudi women sure have it good /s

Keep in mind, you're talking about a country that will send a text to a male guardian of a woman if she tries to leave the country.

Saudi Arabia is one of the worst, if not the worst, country in the world when it comes to women's rights, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against that.
 

Tabris

Member
That explains everything. And I stand by my statement, he's not a government official, his death means nothing to the Iranians.

cat·a·lyst
ˈkad(ə)ləst/
noun
noun: catalyst; plural noun: catalysts
a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.
a person or thing that precipitates an event.

So a catalyst can be really anything. The underlining issues are what actually caused the wars. So if the underlining issue exists, then of course a war can be started over a single civilian's death.

But is there really much difference between Franz Ferdinand and a top Shia cleric.

Iran is a theocracy and a top cleric may have the same society status as a member of a royal family in a monarchy.
 

orochi91

Member
Saudi Arabia is one of the worst, if not the worst, country in the world when it comes to women's rights, I'm not sure why anyone would even try to argue against that.

Context matters.

Folks are discussing which of the two are less shittier, between KSA and Iran.

My vote goes to Iran.
 

brian577

Banned
So a catalyst can be really anything. The underlining issues are what actually caused the wars. So if the underlining issue exists, then of course a war can be started over a single civilian's death.

But is there really much difference between Franz Ferdinand and a top Shia cleric.

Iran is a theocracy and a top cleric may have the same society status as a member of a royal family in a monarchy.

I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a fucking priest matters that much to a country's government. Theocracy or not, the best he's good for is a nice little propaganda tool to ensure the people's loyalty. He wasn't a general or a politician, he's just a man who spouted religious dogma.
 
I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a fucking priest matters that much to a country's government. Theocracy or not, the best he's good for is a nice little propaganda tool to ensure the people's loyalty. He wasn't a general or a politician, he's just a man who spouted religious dogma.
Read a little about Shiite, the grand cleric is a de facto supreme leader.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that a fucking priest matters that much to a country's government. Theocracy or not, the best he's good for is a nice little propaganda tool to ensure the people's loyalty. He wasn't a general or a politician, he's just a man who spouted religious dogma.

You underestimate just how ingrained religion is in these nations. It dictates every part of life from how education works down to what you can buy at the store. So yes, the execution of a religious leader is a very very big deal. There are a lot of extremely angry people in this region right now. And if they actually go through with executing his nephew, I could see things getting even worse.
 

Kiraly

Member
As always great times to be had in the Middle East because a mere thousand years back a group of religious fanatics couldn't agree on whom the rightful heir was.
 
I always wonder why Iran change its name from Persia. Isn't Persia a much more renowned name?

Iran is more or less what the locals referred to themselves as while Persia (and other related words in other languages) is what various other countries referred to them as historically. Some countries care whether exonyms and endonyms are different, many do not. So Iran wants the English language countries to call them Iran, while Germany does not care whether or not they are called Germany or Deutschland in English.
 

7aged

Member
As always great times to be had in the Middle East because a mere thousand years back a group of religious fanatics couldn't agree on whom the rightful heir was.

Nah, religion is just a pretext. It's geopolitics. Each side is trying to protect their sphere of influence.

Iran is more or less what the locals referred to themselves as while Persia (and other related words in other languages) is what various other countries referred to them as historically. Some countries care whether exonyms and endonyms are different, many do not. So Iran wants the English language countries to call them Iran, while Germany does not care whether or not they are called Germany or Deutschland in English.

Incorrect. Persia is a westernisation of Fars. Not all Iranians are Farsi (aka Persian).
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
Great, and China's stock market just crashed down 7%.
 

Mii

Banned
Nah, religion is just a pretext. It's geopolitics. Each side is trying to protect their sphere of influence.



Incorrect. Persia is a westernisation of Fars. Not all Iranians are Farsi (aka Persian).

Fars is the arabization, not Pars the westernization. A bit more background, the language Farsi is called such with an F instead of P because Arabs didn't have the sound P. When through invasion the Arabic alphabet got imposed on Persia, the language began being referred to as Farsi (before Persians added a few more letters for their own use of the alphabet) instead of Parsi.

Another fun fact, ancient Persians who migrated from Iran to India in fact are called Parsis in India.

There are ethnic Persians, but that is not the only ethnic group in Iran. For instance, other well known ethnicities are Baluchis and Kurds.
 

Victarion

Member
Women in Saudi Arabia can vote, get University degrees, have positions in the government,etc.

The biggest University in the country is an all female University. The government pays girls a monthly stipend to go to university.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

You failed to mention that women would need the consent of their 'guardian', to do all those, not to mention that they only got voting rights in 2011.

The biggest University in the country is an all female University.

That's just glorified sex segregation.

Incorrect. Persia is a westernisation of Fars. Not all Iranians are Farsi (aka Persian).

Not really, the word Fars itself is the arabization of Pars, since there's no 'P' in Arabic alphabet.

Persian is a language and a ethnicity. Iran itself has several other ethnic groups that are not Persian, but they are of course Iranian. Hence naming the country Persia would not be fair to millions of other Iranians.
 

7aged

Member
Fars is the arabization, not Pars the westernization. A bit more background, the language Farsi is called such with an F instead of P because Arabs didn't have the sound P. When through invasion the Arabic alphabet got imposed on Persia, the language began being referred to as Farsi (before Persians added a few more letters for their own use of the alphabet) instead of Parsi.

Another fun fact, ancient Persians who migrated from Iran to India in fact are called Parsis in India.

There are ethnic Persians, but that is not the only ethnic group in Iran. For instance, other well known ethnicities are Baluchis and Kurds.

You failed to mention that women would need the consent of their 'guardian', to do all those, not to mention that they only got voting rights in 2011.



That's just glorified sex segregation.



Not really, the word Fars itself is the arabization of Pars, since there's no 'P' in Arabic alphabet.

Persian is a language and a ethnicity. Iran itself has several other ethnic groups that are not Persian, but they are of course Iranian. Hence naming the country Persia would not be fair to millions of other Iranians.

How about you guys get lessons in reading comprehension. That's exactly what I said. Persia is not a westernisation of Iran, but of Fars.

BTW regarding your alphabet hysterionics:

1) It is Fars (فارس) in modern Persian, not Pars (پارس) , so my spelling is correct.
2) Persians always adopted the writing systems of their semitic neighbours, first with cuneiform then with arabic. They never had a written language before conquering Mesopotamia. So GTFO with all this imposing a non native alphabet
 
No country is stupid enough to start a war over one dead civilian.

I agree.
Iran has no interest to do a war now. Iran is currently developping about economy and tourism.
A guy said on tv that Saoudia is afraid and make stressful decision because US and Russia helped Iran recently. It's a silent economic revolution. And each time an arab country develop like that, each time it's difficult for those djihadist to spread terror. Qatar...Iran...Tunisia...
Economy need to understand that economic and social development and investment are huge in Middle East

I think each time something happen since one year, everybody freak out. "OMG WORLD WAR III"Okay hem...no.
ISIS is going to be beaten, they didn"t catch any cities since 7 months and they retreat. They lose ton of money Some will ay "Libye!" but hey no the money is in Iraq and Syria not Libya. In libya they're starting with nothing. So it's not the same level of danger.
But they're losing. They made a new video about UK yesterday for what? Commercial.
ISIS is losing and they want to show us that they're still strong to recruit (but they're not).
 
So we have so far
-Severing ties:
Saudi Arabia
Bahrain
Sudan

Summoning the Ambassador and reducing diplomatic presence :
United Arab Emirates


As some news sources indicated more countries will join Saudi Arabia
 

Victarion

Member
How about you guys get lessons in reading comprehension. That's exactly what I said. Persia is not a westernisation of Iran, but of Fars.

BTW regarding your alphabet hysterionics:

1) It is Fars (فارس) in modern Persian, not Pars (پارس) , so my spelling is correct.
2) Persians always adopted the writing systems of their semitic neighbours, first with cuneiform then with arabic. They never had a written language before conquering Mesopotamia. So GTFO with all this imposing a non native alphabet

Calm down. How about you actually reply to the guy who talked of imposition, not me. Fars is a arabization of Pars and for whatever reason has remained so in the modern Persian language. Neither the original name of the tribe that build the Persian empire, nor their capital was called Fars, but Pars/Parse.
 

Mii

Banned
How about you guys get lessons in reading comprehension. That's exactly what I said. Persia is not a westernisation of Iran, but of Fars.

BTW regarding your alphabet hysterionics:

1) It is Fars (فارس) in modern Persian, not Pars (پارس) , so my spelling is correct.
2) Persians always adopted the writing systems of their semitic neighbours, first with cuneiform then with arabic. They never had a written language before conquering Mesopotamia. So GTFO with all this imposing a non native alphabet



Not sure why you're feeling feisty, but you continue to miss the point. Persia is a westernization of Pars. F is only used in the modern era because of the switch that occurred after Arab invasion.

Arabic alphabet was indeed imposed. It's part of why the switch to Fars happened in the first place. The invaders had no way to spell or pronounce how the Pars referred to themselves. When pushing the alphabet, the invaders' suggested spelling included an F. Persians later fixed this by adding some letters, but not before Farsi as a term stuck.

It's not like Persians would want to remove P for a few generations to only put it back in later. It's also while ancient Zoroastrian Persians in India are still called Parsi.

In the end it's still good that the alphabet was adopted because the prior one was still symbols based. It was a helpful modernization. It did leave some unusual changes in the adjustment process though.


Per Wikipedia:

Persian, the historically more widely used name of the language in English, is an anglicized form derived from Latin *Persianus < Latin Persia < Greek &#928;&#949;&#961;&#963;&#943;&#962; Persís "Persia",[27] a Hellenized form of Old Persian Parsa.[28] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term Persian as a language name is first attested in English in the mid-16th century.[29] Native Iranian Persian speakers call it F&#257;rsi.[30] Farsi is the Arabicized form of P&#257;rsi, subsequent to Muslim conquest of Persia, due to a lack of the phoneme /p/ in Standard Arabic (i.e., the /p/ was replaced with an /f/).[31][32][33] The origin of the name Farsi and the place of origin of the language which is Fars Province is the Arabicized form of P&#257;rs.[31][32][33] In English, this language has historically been known as "Persian", though "Farsi" has also gained some currency. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the term Farsi was first used in English in 1926, while Parsi dates to 1790.[30] "Farsi" is encountered in some linguistic literature as a name for the language, used both by Iranian and by foreign authors.[34]

In South Asia the word "Farsi" refers to the language while "Parsi" describes the people of Persian origin, particularly Zoroastrians
 

7aged

Member
I bet Iran are regretting that Nuclear deal with Obama right about now.

BREAKING?: Bahrain have followed suit

Why would they regret the nuclear deal. It was a good strategic move. The one they should regret is allowing the revolutionary guards to send a mob out to torch the embassy and consulates. That political blunder has cost them any chance of claiming the high ground.
 
I bet Iran are regretting that Nuclear deal with Obama right about now.

BREAKING?: Bahrain have followed suit

i don't know. It's just geopolitical crisis like "hey we want this and this and this". Iran don't want to start a war. Saudia, Bahrein etc... don' twant to start a war
It's just communication. We saw worse (Paris attawks, 11 september, that russian plane taken down by Turquia...)

In fact they already did that in the 80's.

Why would they regret the nuclear deal. It was a good strategic move. The one they should regret is allowing the revolutionary guards to send a mob out to torch the embassy and consulates. That political blunder has cost them any chance of claiming the high ground.

But Iran already condmned those attack, they disagree about what happened to the embassy. It's Saudia who cry like a baby. If french extremist guys destroy embassy of america i don't think america would remove their relationship with France. (it's a silly example but hey :p ).
Saudia did the wrong thing and they want to be the victim now...
I think it's just a little crisis (i hope...). A russian delegation will come this afternoon to make an arrangement between the two countries.
 

Anoregon

The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
I legit lol'd at Saudi Arabia having the balls to accuse another nation of supporting terrorism.
 
Egyptian Government during the Saudi-Egyptian cooperation council: Our diplomatic relationship with Iran was severed more than 40 years ago.
 
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