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[Nikodemos]

Come now, no need for harsh words to your fellow netizens. Given the distance in time, it's an academic discussion at this point.

Returning to the subject matter, I'd say one needs to make a distictions between understandable actions, and correct actions.

Several of the actions taken by Sega are understandable in the period's context.
Several of your competitors are developing CD-ROM expand-ons (though we all know how Nintendo's attempt ended). Sure, let's have a crack at it as well.
Nintendo is enjoying quite the success in the handheld market. Why not recycle your old system into one? The library is already there...
SoJ execs have been clamoring for a new console since late 1992. You can finally shut them up with this (other) expand-on (while the next big console design is in the oven).
Nakayama fucked you over when he ordered the immediate shutdown of all 16-bit development? How about you pull the rug out from under him in return?
The Black Belt is ready for production right now, but the Katana is a fair bit more capable, which will have more long-term viability...

Now, of course, while these decisions were understandable, they were rather incorrect.

The Mega Drive was uniquely unsuitable for expand-ons, due to its several design flaws, incorrect developmental assumptions, and highly centralized architecture. The Sega CD was a mistake not necessarily because it was a sales failure (though it underperformed), but rather because of the considerable amount of extra hardware that had to be put into it, primarily to avoid working directly with the Genesis architecture (immensely difficult in the first place due to said design flaws). The Sega CD contains an almost complete separate console inside it, more powerful than the base Genesis. Yet its output doesn't really show it.

The Game Gear, albeit being the 'true' incarnation of the Master System (read up about the busted color compositor and 64 versus 4096 color palette), was an excessively overambitious design, given its power draw and the state of early '90s battery tech. Not even bundling it with a Power Pack would (EDIT: have) made it more palatable: one of them was a finicky belt-clip powerbank with a long 'noodle' cable running to the console, the other was a massive (and heavy) grip which made the handheld almost impossible to hold for extended periods.

The 32X should have never existed. Its only "success", if one can call it that, was that it exposed Nakayama's hypocrisy. His justification for shutting down 16-bit development was "the need to concentrate on the Saturn". Now, Genesis and Saturn development didn't exactly overlap, from a technical know-how point. On the other hand, 32X and Saturn development did overlap badly, since they used the same bloody underlying architecture. Thus it was completely unsurprising that it got shitcanned with the quickness.

Stolar's decision, while it did likely make him feel vindicated, caused irreparable damage to the home console division. Yes, the Saturn is underperforming on all metrics, and its launch was an utter disaster. But do you have something to replace it with, revenue-wise, do you have something else that can keep the lights on during the several years until the next console generation?

I consider SoJ's decision to go with Katana over the Black Belt as the final nail in the home console division's coffin. Yes, the SH-4 + PowerVR CLX2 were more powerful than the purported PowerPC 603e + Voodoo 2.5.
The difference is, the Black Belt combo actually existed, in terms of componentry, at the time of the competition (cca mid- to mid-late '97). And could've been ready for a global launch in early 1998. Hitachi had barely started working on the SH-4 when it was selected as the winner, and the CLX2 was still in development. Nearly two years of potential market presence were lost, for a power difference that would ultimately prove irrelevant.
Plus, the Black Belt's components were known quantities. The 603e's immediate predecessor, the 603 (IBM used a "tick-tock" microarch cycle) was already in use in Macs and Amiga expansion boards. There already was a knowledge base for it. And Glide was still the de facto graphics API, which would've ensured a high degree of code commonality, reducing porting devtime.
Also, there's another thing to mention. EA had a small stake in 3dfx. Breaking off the contract caused EA to abandon Sega definitively (the relation was already on rocky ground due to some of Stolar's shenanigans).

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Come now, no need for harsh words to your fellow netizens. Given the distance in time, it's an academic discussion at this point.

Returning to the subject matter, I'd say one needs to make a distictions between understandable actions, and correct actions.

Several of the actions taken by Sega are understandable in the period's context.
Several of your competitors are developing CD-ROM expand-ons (though we all know how Nintendo's attempt ended). Sure, let's have a crack at it as well.
Nintendo is enjoying quite the success in the handheld market. Why not recycle your old system into one? The library is already there...
SoJ execs have been clamoring for a new console since late 1992. You can finally shut them up with this (other) expand-on (while the next big console design is in the oven).
Nakayama fucked you over when he ordered the immediate shutdown of all 16-bit development? How about you pull the rug out from under him in return?
The Black Belt is ready for production right now, but the Katana is a fair bit more capable, which will have more long-term viability...

Now, of course, while these decisions were understandable, they were rather incorrect.

The Mega Drive was uniquely unsuitable for expand-ons, due to its several design flaws, incorrect developmental assumptions, and highly centralized architecture. The Sega CD was a mistake not necessarily because it was a sales failure (though it underperformed), but rather because of the considerable amount of extra hardware that had to be put into it, primarily to avoid working directly with the Genesis architecture (immensely difficult in the first place due to said design flaws). The Sega CD contains an almost complete separate console inside it, more powerful than the base Genesis. Yet its output doesn't really show it.

The Game Gear, albeit being the 'true' incarnation of the Master System (read up about the busted color compositor and 64 versus 4096 color palette), was an excessively overambitious design, given its power draw and the state of early '90s battery tech. Not even bundling it with a Power Pack would made it more palatable: one of them was a finicky belt-clip powerbank with a long 'noodle' cable running to the console, the other was a massive (and heavy) grip which made the handheld almost impossible to hold for extended periods.

The 32X should have never existed. Its only "success", if one can call it that, was that it exposed Nakayama's hypocrisy. His justification for shutting down 16-bit development was "the need to concentrate on the Saturn". Now, Genesis and Saturn development didn't exactly overlap, from a technical know-how point. On the other hand, 32X and Saturn development did overlap badly, since they used the same bloody underlying architecture. Thus it was completely unsurprising that it got shitcanned with the quickness.

Stolar's decision, while it did likely make him feel vindicated, caused irreparable damage to the home console division. Yes, the Saturn is underperforming on all metrics, and its launch was an utter disaster. But do you have something to replace it with, revenue-wise, do you have something else that can keep the lights on during the several years until the next console generation?

I consider SoJ's decision to go with Katana over the Black Belt as the final nail in the home console division's coffin. Yes, the SH-4 + PowerVR CLX2 were more powerful than the purported PowerPC 603e + Voodoo 2.5.
The difference is, the Black Belt combo actually existed, in terms of componentry, at the time of the competition (cca mid- to mid-late '97). And could've been ready for a global launch in early 1998. Hitachi had barely started working on the SH-4 when it was selected as the winner, and the CLX2 was still in development. Nearly two years of potential market presence were lost, for a power difference that would ultimately prove irrelevant.
Plus, the Black Belt's components were known quantities. The 603e's immediate predecessor, the 603 (IBM used a "tick-tock" microarch cycle) was already in use in Macs and Amiga expansion boards. There already was a knowledge base for it. And Glide was still the de facto graphics API, which would've ensured a high degree of code commonality, reducing porting devtime.
Also, there's another thing to mention. EA had a small stake in 3dfx. Breaking off the contract caused EA to abandon Sega definitively (the relation was already on rocky ground due to some of Stolar's shenanigans).

One thing about the Game Gear is it wasn't an optimal design for a color portable, the Lynx was stronger in petty much every areas but resolution and it even in it's thin revision, required less cost to make and was easier to develop for. The fact that Game Gear also made a bunch of failed accessories, including a TV Tuner that was overproduced, bogged it down. It also had many console level games put on a portable screen, and while there were many games that weren't, many gamers who actually got Game Gears experienced them and were frustrated by the experience, and some articles i recall were questioning if Sega actually tested these games on the game Gear instead of something else.


I disagree with the 32X though, the 32X was the most understandable, as you put it, reaction Sega made. People constantly get the 32X story long, it could have been a benefit to developers to learn the Saturn, it could have been a platform to push up-ports to expand the Saturn library, it sold faster and well until it was neglected then cut off, which ended up creating consumer and retailer side-effect that harmed the Saturn.

The reaction to the Jaguar made perfect sense, Atari hid their condition well, they were expecting people to keep their contracts and time tables, their low production capacity wasn't known, they were announcing for stores that they couldn't even ship to in a year, Nobody knew this. Ataris' early announcement and marketing for a Jaguar was genius, and any scammer could learn from it, people saw the demos, the trailers, the spec sheets, mags were talking about it, controlled try-out testimonials, people were expecting Atari to take names. Sega seeing that created the first reaction that raised Sega's benchmark for the Saturn and made them believe that they should create the 32X to extent the life of the Genesis and have a platform to jump off of into 3D gaming. The 32Xs biggest issue wasn't it itself but how Sega killed it.

Now, would it have been better IF the 32X didn't exist? Debatable, especially since Sega was screwing up sustaining the Mega Drive and that 32X life extension to some extent did actually work. Of course, there's also the argument that they could have put a handful of the early 32X games on the Saturn and killing the Genesis may have been justified.

I understand that Sega wanted to keep it's declining ex-cash cow going and keeping the mindshare intact, but really they dropped the ball enough that I'm not really sure there was another way to extent its life but the 32X. I mean if anything Sega should have killed the Sega CD after 1994, instead of keeping it around until 1996.

As for Stolar, he gets quite a bit of unfair blame here for mistakes short and long-term by Sega of Japan. Like Sega of Japan pulling an Atari and killing most their operations but one console with no other revenue source, and then going full Atari mid 90's Jaguar with the Dreamcast.

Really I think a lot of these mistakes and poor decisions trace back to one decision: To Keep the Genesis/Mega Drive around, or kill it.

A 1993 Saturn would not be as strong as a 1994 Saturn which also was influenced by reacting to completion, and yet it would have had a larger library upfront, great looking ports of arcade favorites, amazing 2D games, a year head start on the competition, affordable price, and there would have been an attempt to get MD developers to bridge over. The easier tools and development environment would be beneficial to first party and third party teams.

This would of course require the sunsetting of the MD early. Which may have been necessary. The delay with the Saturn along with the attempt to keep the MD alive, is what let to the first of several missteps and competitive reactions by SoA and SoJ.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

One thing about the Game Gear is it wasn't an optimal design for a color portable, the Lynx was stronger in petty much every areas but resolution and it even in it's thin revision, required less cost to make and was easier to develop for. The fact that Game Gear also made a bunch of failed accessories, including a TV Tuner that was overproduced, bogged it down. It also had many console level games put on a portable screen, and while there were many games that weren't, many gamers who actually got Game Gears experienced them and were frustrated by the experience, and some articles i recall were questioning if Sega actually tested these games on the game Gear instead of something else.


I disagree with the 32X though, the 32X was the most understandable, as you put it, reaction Sega made. People constantly get the 32X story long, it could have been a benefit to developers to learn the Saturn, it could have been a platform to push up-ports to expand the Saturn library, it sold faster and well until it was neglected then cut off, which ended up creating consumer and retailer side-effect that harmed the Saturn.

The reaction to the Jaguar made perfect sense, Atari hid their condition well, they were expecting people to keep their contracts and time tables, their low production capacity wasn't known, they were announcing for stores that they couldn't even ship to in a year, Nobody knew this. Ataris' early announcement and marketing for a Jaguar was genius, and any scammer could learn from it, people saw the demos, the trailers, the spec sheets, mags were talking about it, controlled try-out testimonials, people were expecting Atari to take names. Sega seeing that created the first reaction that raised Sega's benchmark for the Saturn and made them believe that they should create the 32X to extent the life of the Genesis and have a platform to jump off of into 3D gaming. The 32Xs biggest issue wasn't it itself but how Sega killed it.

Now, would it have been better IF the 32X didn't exist? Debatable, especially since Sega was screwing up sustaining the Mega Drive and that 32X life extension to some extent did actually work. Of course, there's also the argument that they could have put a handful of the early 32X games on the Saturn and killing the Genesis may have been justified.

I understand that Sega wanted to keep it's declining ex-cash cow going and keeping the mindshare intact, but really they dropped the ball enough that I'm not really sure there was another way to extent its life but the 32X. I mean if anything Sega should have killed the Sega CD after 1994, instead of keeping it around until 1996.

As for Stolar, he gets quite a bit of unfair blame here for mistakes short and long-term by Sega of Japan. Like Sega of Japan pulling an Atari and killing most their operations but one console with no other revenue source, and then going full Atari mid 90's Jaguar with the Dreamcast.

Really I think a lot of these mistakes and poor decisions trace back to one decision: To Keep the Genesis/Mega Drive around, or kill it.

A 1993 Saturn would not be as strong as a 1994 Saturn which also was influenced by reacting to completion, and yet it would have had a larger library upfront, great looking ports of arcade favorites, amazing 2D games, a year head start on the competition, affordable price, and there would have been an attempt to get MD developers to bridge over. The easier tools and development environment would be beneficial to first party and third party teams.

This would of course require the sunsetting of the MD early. Which may have been necessary. The delay with the Saturn along with the attempt to keep the MD alive, is what let to the first of several missteps and competitive reactions by SoA and SoJ.

There would not be a Lunar 2 if sega cd die in 1994.

 

[RAIDEN1]

One thing about the Game Gear is it wasn't an optimal design for a color portable, the Lynx was stronger in petty much every areas but resolution and it even in it's thin revision, required less cost to make and was easier to develop for. The fact that Game Gear also made a bunch of failed accessories, including a TV Tuner that was overproduced, bogged it down. It also had many console level games put on a portable screen, and while there were many games that weren't, many gamers who actually got Game Gears experienced them and were frustrated by the experience, and some articles i recall were questioning if Sega actually tested these games on the game Gear instead of something else.


I disagree with the 32X though, the 32X was the most understandable, as you put it, reaction Sega made. People constantly get the 32X story long, it could have been a benefit to developers to learn the Saturn, it could have been a platform to push up-ports to expand the Saturn library, it sold faster and well until it was neglected then cut off, which ended up creating consumer and retailer side-effect that harmed the Saturn.

The reaction to the Jaguar made perfect sense, Atari hid their condition well, they were expecting people to keep their contracts and time tables, their low production capacity wasn't known, they were announcing for stores that they couldn't even ship to in a year, Nobody knew this. Ataris' early announcement and marketing for a Jaguar was genius, and any scammer could learn from it, people saw the demos, the trailers, the spec sheets, mags were talking about it, controlled try-out testimonials, people were expecting Atari to take names. Sega seeing that created the first reaction that raised Sega's benchmark for the Saturn and made them believe that they should create the 32X to extent the life of the Genesis and have a platform to jump off of into 3D gaming. The 32Xs biggest issue wasn't it itself but how Sega killed it.

Now, would it have been better IF the 32X didn't exist? Debatable, especially since Sega was screwing up sustaining the Mega Drive and that 32X life extension to some extent did actually work. Of course, there's also the argument that they could have put a handful of the early 32X games on the Saturn and killing the Genesis may have been justified.

I understand that Sega wanted to keep it's declining ex-cash cow going and keeping the mindshare intact, but really they dropped the ball enough that I'm not really sure there was another way to extent its life but the 32X. I mean if anything Sega should have killed the Sega CD after 1994, instead of keeping it around until 1996.

As for Stolar, he gets quite a bit of unfair blame here for mistakes short and long-term by Sega of Japan. Like Sega of Japan pulling an Atari and killing most their operations but one console with no other revenue source, and then going full Atari mid 90's Jaguar with the Dreamcast.

Really I think a lot of these mistakes and poor decisions trace back to one decision: To Keep the Genesis/Mega Drive around, or kill it.

A 1993 Saturn would not be as strong as a 1994 Saturn which also was influenced by reacting to completion, and yet it would have had a larger library upfront, great looking ports of arcade favorites, amazing 2D games, a year head start on the competition, affordable price, and there would have been an attempt to get MD developers to bridge over. The easier tools and development environment would be beneficial to first party and third party teams.

This would of course require the sunsetting of the MD early. Which may have been necessary. The delay with the Saturn along with the attempt to keep the MD alive, is what let to the first of several missteps and competitive reactions by SoA and SoJ.

Just taking a snippet from what you said about the Game-Gear, at the time that was the only portable to give the Gameboy a run for its money, all the other wannabes tried and failed...saying that though the Gameboy was so far ahead in sales, that anyone being able to catch up with that would have been a mighty achievement..

 

[nush]

A near 14 year run isn't a fad, sorry, no matter how much it saddens you FMV sold more and more until the late 90's, before the CD drive

Trying to discuss anything with you is like talking to an autistic AI that's been trained by reading only Wikipedia articles about gaming history. FMV sold more before the CD drive? On what the Halcyon 200?

You obviously were not there, did not own these consoles or games at the time and fail to separate fact from your opinion that you twist to fit the facts you want.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Trying to discuss anything with you is like talking to an autistic AI that's been trained by reading only Wikipedia articles about gaming history. FMV sold more before the CD drive? On what the Halcyon 200?

You obviously were not there, did not own these consoles or games at the time and fail to separate fact from your opinion that you twist to fit the facts you want.

Not sure what 14 year time period he's talking about. That's a long time. The FMV cd-rom era (which got into gear when PC cd drives became standard) was a 90s thing. And that wouldnt include early 90s as hardly anyone had Turbo CD, Sega CD and PC CDs.

 

[pramod]

There would not be a Lunar 2 if sega cd die in 1994.

Nor Snatcher.

Anyway, I didn't want to turn this into another system war fanboy thread, but in general I ignore all comments suggesting the Sega CD is some sort of colossal failure that killed Sega. It was started by haters and Nintendo fanboys 30 years ago, and those same people are probably still around to spew the same crap.

Just take a quick look on Ebay and see how much money people are willing to pay for games for this "failed" system.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Trying to discuss anything with you is like talking to an autistic AI that's been trained by reading only Wikipedia articles about gaming history. FMV sold more before the CD drive? On what the Halcyon 200?

You obviously were not there, did not own these consoles or games at the time and fail to separate fact from your opinion that you twist to fit the facts you want.

It seems the autistic one is you, who seems that he's incapable of basic reading comprehension since the bolded is something I never said.

You also intentionally cut off the sentence, which says this:

before the CD drive, and after the CD drive

You deliberately misquoted to push bullshit because you can't accept the fact FMV was around for years and many games sold high amounts of copies, even in some cases millions. But i guess that's allowed on Gaf now, just straight up falsifying quotes. And you still hasn't presented any knowledge of the history btw. You mentioned wikipedia articles because your projecting.

 

[nush]

It seems the autistic one is you, who seems that he's incapable of basic reading comprehension since the bolded is something I never said.

You also intentionally cut off the sentence, which says this:



You deliberately misquoted to push bullshit because you can't accept the fact FMV was around for years and many games high amounts of copies, even in many cases millions. But i guess that's allowed on Gaf now, just straight up editing quotes and lying like a 5 year old coward named Nush. Who still hasn't presented any knowledge of the history btw. He mentions wikipedia articles because he's projecting.

FMV games were a niche and remained so until they could be dumped with systems capable of producing reality in engine. But they are making Night Trap in 4K for the PS5, so there's another multi million seller on the way, another port.

The more childish insults you throw out the more you show how fragile you are that your personality and social skills have been replaced by being a self-appointed videogame historian. Nobody cares about the fan fic novellas you are writing.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

There would not be a Lunar 2 if sega cd die in 1994.

Eh, they could move it to the Saturn.

Just taking a snippet from what you said about the Game-Gear, at the time that was the only portable to give the Gameboy a run for its money, all the other wannabes tried and failed...saying that though the Gameboy was so far ahead in sales, that anyone being able to catch up with that would have been a mighty achievement..

Gamegear never gave gameboy a run for it's Money, The Lynx initially did but Atari couldn't produce the console in the quantities they wanted as time went on, they made profit off the console though, Gameboy was already quite a bit ahead before the GG came out. Sega had better reach over time hence the second place and estimated double digit millions sold, yet one could argue that wasn't worth it by the end. Especially since they couldn't sustain it, or come up with viable follow up. The Nomad on paper seemed like a good idea but it was executed poorly and that's BEFORE factoring in the battery problem and other issues with the hardware.

It also didn't help that the Game Gear didn't really have much in the way of big or modest selling hits. Even Sonic wasn't all that hot on the device despite numerous games, same with MK, it was basically the Sega CD situation but on portable more affordable hardware that had better reach internationally.

Forget about Segas answer to Tetris, what was Segas answer to even the upper hundred thousand sellers? Or the 1-3 million sellers? The software wasn't driving console production despite Sega having quite a bit of it relative to other competition.

Sega would need some system movers to sell even a third of what the Gameboy sold let alone catch up, and I don't really think that was possible. Sega would have to complete revamp their strategy.

Not sure what 14 year time period he's talking about. That's a long time. The FMV cd-rom era (which got into gear when PC cd drives became standard) was a 90s thing. And that wouldnt include early 90s as hardly anyone had Turbo CD, Sega CD and PC CDs.

The context was he was saying FMV in general wasn't a thing. FMV had been a thin since the 80's. The idea is to confuse people by switching the posts around and misquoting.

But responding to you specifically, the CD-rom era started in 1990.FMV games were increasing in output since 1991, and 1993 where some of the first MAJOR sellers, not just big, came out, was still early 90's. Heck, Mad Dog and Night Trap came out in 92 Also the console CD-roms had their own too.

Even if you were to be dishonest and pretend the 80's never happened, 1991-1998 is 7 years, that's not a fad, especially since it sold more and more toward the end of that time frame before the sales cratered (like Ripper for example, though it had a good start). Also several have been rereleased, some have been remasters, some got sequels (Tex Murphy 2014 for example) and some were put on various services like GoG.

1991 was when the CD-drives were becoming widely adopted and non-mainstream brands were cutting the price down, 2x drives were becoming standard, 3x drives were weird, and 4x drives were the premium thing by 1993.

The games sales themselves, as well as how known some of these brands are speak for itself.

I get some people dislike FMV, and that's fine, in fact, FMV adventure games seem to be what people THESE days the only ones that are considered viable outside nostalgia for Dragons Lair or Time gal and such, or maybe RebelAssault WC, etc, but let's not pretend that FMV was some small thing barely anyone played and was some minority fad when it wasn't.

Most people who don't know much about it think of Creature shock or those weird games like who shot johnny rock, and ignore the interactive FMV games and Adventure FMV games which where most of the popularity was outside some hits like Rebel Assault and others.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

FMV games were a niche

Sorry the sales numbers don't care about your lies.

The more childish insults you throw out

You're projecting, as usual. You haven't debunked a single thing, the only evidence we have of popularity of FMV is sales and brand mindshare of certain titles, both of which favor FMV.

Your so but hurt it was popular and lasted so long that you keep lying and even edit quotes to continue lying as I proved in post #459. You haven't provided anything but whining. Whining doesn't make what you want to believe real when we have facts, none of which you have provided in this conversation. But we have sales numbers. Also a long life span of several years of releases, even just looking at the 90's alone.

if you actually had anything of substance to back your imagination, maybe you're rants would go somewhere but you don't.

 

[nush]

Sorry the sales numbers don't care about your lies.

I haven't seen you produce any sales data. Or actually any sources to back up your 'Facts" about anything.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The context was he was saying FMV in general wasn't a thing. FMV had been a thin since the 80's. The idea is to confuse people by switching the posts around and misquoting.

But responding to you specifically, the CD-rom era started in 1990.FMV games were increasing in output since 1991, and 1993 where some of the first MAJOR sellers, not just big, came out, was still early 90's. Heck, Mad Dog and Night Trap came out in 92 Also the console CD-roms had their own too.

Even if you were to be dishonest and pretend the 80's never happened, 1991-1998 is 7 years, that's not a fad, especially since it sold more and more toward the end of that time frame before the sales cratered (like Ripper for example, though it had a good start). Also several have been rereleased, some have been remasters, some got sequels (Tex Murphy 2014 for example) and some were put on various services like GoG.

1991 was when the CD-drives were becoming widely adopted and non-mainstream brands were cutting the price down, 2x drives were becoming standard, 3x drives were weird, and 4x drives were the premium thing by 1993.

Your stretching the years to make 14 years sound legit. You already just dropped it to 7 years. Just because some games in the 80s had some digitized images or there were a small number of games on PC Engine CD or whatever with FMV doesn't mean it was a thing.

Hardly anyone gamed in the 80s with FMV, and there is no way 1990-1992 were CD roms widespread enough to make it a big. Perhaps 1993(?) for PC and then fall 1994 for Japanese Saturn/PS1 consoles launch is when FMW games became a hot thing as optical drives were standard features in hardware. In the early 90s, console gamers were mostly cartridges and most PC gamers were still on 1.44 floppies.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

Not only transparencies though, Saturn wasn't quite at the same level at lighting especially, pure geometry throughput & transform. The machine didn't have anything akin to PlayStation's GTE (Geometry Transform Engine) coprocessor after all. Multiplatform 3D games tended to have less details/geometry alongside worse frame rate on Saturn. Transparency problem was just a facet.

I would disagree on this point. While Saturn software often struggled in 1995, by 1996-97, programmers were better able to tackle the hardware and multi-platform games reached parity. In most instances, the PSX & Saturn versions of any given title are more or less equal. Indeed in many cases, Saturn would come out ahead, particularly when coders could take advantage of its unique architecture (usually exploiting VDP2).

As a general rule, software titles created for both platforms equally achieved the same results, while titles created specifically for one platform would be better than it’s translation.

I really ought to write a couple articles on this topic for Sega Saturn Shiro. In the 90s, it was universally accepted that when it came to third-party games, Sony had the better version while Sega either struggled or got table scraps. The truth is far more balanced, but by that point, nobody paid attention to Sega anymore.

 

[nush]

is no way 1990-1992 were CD roms widespread enough to make it a big. Perhaps 1993(?) for PC

Myst being the killer app for PC CD rom was only released in 1993,

"14. MYST WAS THE "KILLER APP" THAT MADE CD-ROM DRIVES RELEVANT.
Released on CD-ROM for Macintosh in September 1993, Myst was one of the first games to only be available in that format. As the game’s popularity skyrocketed, so did sales of CD-ROM drives and even home computers.

15. MYST WAS THE BEST-SELLING PC GAME UNTIL 2002​

Until The Sims took the top spot with 6.3 million games sold in 2002, Myst was the best-selling PC title on record, with 6 million units sold since its 1993 launch. To date, the franchise has sold over 12 million units."

15 Things You Might Not Know About<em> Myst</em>

null

www.mentalfloss.com

When it came to the console space the majority of FMV games were ports from PC or the arcade. Re-encode the video and it's a cheap port because you don't need to film/animate everything again. Developers quickly realized that even with all those CD drives out there these FMV games still didn't sell enough to be worthwhile.

 

[nush]

As a general rule, software titles created for both platforms equally achieved the same results, while titles created specifically for one platform would be better than it’s translation.

Although I've never played them on Playstation I've heard that Silhouette Mirage and Thunderforce V developed for Saturn are worse on Playstation. It does depend what was the lead platform and the porting teams were often an afterthought.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Although I've never played them on Playstation I've heard that Silhouette Mirage and Thunderforce V developed for Saturn are worse on Playstation. It does depend what was the lead platform and the porting teams were often an afterthought.

Yes they are. But Raystorm was better on Playstation. Silhouette was a 2D game, it makes sense the Saturn could do better here as Saturn was a 2D beast. But TFV is polygonal, like Raystorm. And then there is Einhander, which is technically absolutely fucking impressive on PSX and I doubt Saturn could do that stuff tbh.

There is a good chance TFV on PSX was just a dirty port. Playstation could do better though the version isn't bad.

 

[Dane]

Come now, no need for harsh words to your fellow netizens. Given the distance in time, it's an academic discussion at this point.

Returning to the subject matter, I'd say one needs to make a distictions between understandable actions, and correct actions.

Several of the actions taken by Sega are understandable in the period's context.
Several of your competitors are developing CD-ROM expand-ons (though we all know how Nintendo's attempt ended). Sure, let's have a crack at it as well.
Nintendo is enjoying quite the success in the handheld market. Why not recycle your old system into one? The library is already there...
SoJ execs have been clamoring for a new console since late 1992. You can finally shut them up with this (other) expand-on (while the next big console design is in the oven).
Nakayama fucked you over when he ordered the immediate shutdown of all 16-bit development? How about you pull the rug out from under him in return?
The Black Belt is ready for production right now, but the Katana is a fair bit more capable, which will have more long-term viability...

Now, of course, while these decisions were understandable, they were rather incorrect.

The Mega Drive was uniquely unsuitable for expand-ons, due to its several design flaws, incorrect developmental assumptions, and highly centralized architecture. The Sega CD was a mistake not necessarily because it was a sales failure (though it underperformed), but rather because of the considerable amount of extra hardware that had to be put into it, primarily to avoid working directly with the Genesis architecture (immensely difficult in the first place due to said design flaws). The Sega CD contains an almost complete separate console inside it, more powerful than the base Genesis. Yet its output doesn't really show it.

The Game Gear, albeit being the 'true' incarnation of the Master System (read up about the busted color compositor and 64 versus 4096 color palette), was an excessively overambitious design, given its power draw and the state of early '90s battery tech. Not even bundling it with a Power Pack would (EDIT: have) made it more palatable: one of them was a finicky belt-clip powerbank with a long 'noodle' cable running to the console, the other was a massive (and heavy) grip which made the handheld almost impossible to hold for extended periods.

The 32X should have never existed. Its only "success", if one can call it that, was that it exposed Nakayama's hypocrisy. His justification for shutting down 16-bit development was "the need to concentrate on the Saturn". Now, Genesis and Saturn development didn't exactly overlap, from a technical know-how point. On the other hand, 32X and Saturn development did overlap badly, since they used the same bloody underlying architecture. Thus it was completely unsurprising that it got shitcanned with the quickness.

Stolar's decision, while it did likely make him feel vindicated, caused irreparable damage to the home console division. Yes, the Saturn is underperforming on all metrics, and its launch was an utter disaster. But do you have something to replace it with, revenue-wise, do you have something else that can keep the lights on during the several years until the next console generation?

I consider SoJ's decision to go with Katana over the Black Belt as the final nail in the home console division's coffin. Yes, the SH-4 + PowerVR CLX2 were more powerful than the purported PowerPC 603e + Voodoo 2.5.
The difference is, the Black Belt combo actually existed, in terms of componentry, at the time of the competition (cca mid- to mid-late '97). And could've been ready for a global launch in early 1998. Hitachi had barely started working on the SH-4 when it was selected as the winner, and the CLX2 was still in development. Nearly two years of potential market presence were lost, for a power difference that would ultimately prove irrelevant.
Plus, the Black Belt's components were known quantities. The 603e's immediate predecessor, the 603 (IBM used a "tick-tock" microarch cycle) was already in use in Macs and Amiga expansion boards. There already was a knowledge base for it. And Glide was still the de facto graphics API, which would've ensured a high degree of code commonality, reducing porting devtime.
Also, there's another thing to mention. EA had a small stake in 3dfx. Breaking off the contract caused EA to abandon Sega definitively (the relation was already on rocky ground due to some of Stolar's shenanigans).

Main problem was money according to Stolar, Sega was cutting out the bleeds and living on arcade and Japan sales, but it was the moment that fucked everything up, had they released the DC simultaneously I think it would have changed the course, althrough the launch catalog outside VF3 was very mediocre to awful, i'd consider talking with developers to have their 1997-early 98 PC games on it at launch.

One thing about the Game Gear is it wasn't an optimal design for a color portable, the Lynx was stronger in petty much every areas but resolution and it even in it's thin revision, required less cost to make and was easier to develop for. The fact that Game Gear also made a bunch of failed accessories, including a TV Tuner that was overproduced, bogged it down. It also had many console level games put on a portable screen, and while there were many games that weren't, many gamers who actually got Game Gears experienced them and were frustrated by the experience, and some articles i recall were questioning if Sega actually tested these games on the game Gear instead of something else.


I disagree with the 32X though, the 32X was the most understandable, as you put it, reaction Sega made. People constantly get the 32X story long, it could have been a benefit to developers to learn the Saturn, it could have been a platform to push up-ports to expand the Saturn library, it sold faster and well until it was neglected then cut off, which ended up creating consumer and retailer side-effect that harmed the Saturn.

The reaction to the Jaguar made perfect sense, Atari hid their condition well, they were expecting people to keep their contracts and time tables, their low production capacity wasn't known, they were announcing for stores that they couldn't even ship to in a year, Nobody knew this. Ataris' early announcement and marketing for a Jaguar was genius, and any scammer could learn from it, people saw the demos, the trailers, the spec sheets, mags were talking about it, controlled try-out testimonials, people were expecting Atari to take names. Sega seeing that created the first reaction that raised Sega's benchmark for the Saturn and made them believe that they should create the 32X to extent the life of the Genesis and have a platform to jump off of into 3D gaming. The 32Xs biggest issue wasn't it itself but how Sega killed it.

Now, would it have been better IF the 32X didn't exist? Debatable, especially since Sega was screwing up sustaining the Mega Drive and that 32X life extension to some extent did actually work. Of course, there's also the argument that they could have put a handful of the early 32X games on the Saturn and killing the Genesis may have been justified.

I understand that Sega wanted to keep it's declining ex-cash cow going and keeping the mindshare intact, but really they dropped the ball enough that I'm not really sure there was another way to extent its life but the 32X. I mean if anything Sega should have killed the Sega CD after 1994, instead of keeping it around until 1996.

As for Stolar, he gets quite a bit of unfair blame here for mistakes short and long-term by Sega of Japan. Like Sega of Japan pulling an Atari and killing most their operations but one console with no other revenue source, and then going full Atari mid 90's Jaguar with the Dreamcast.

Really I think a lot of these mistakes and poor decisions trace back to one decision: To Keep the Genesis/Mega Drive around, or kill it.

A 1993 Saturn would not be as strong as a 1994 Saturn which also was influenced by reacting to completion, and yet it would have had a larger library upfront, great looking ports of arcade favorites, amazing 2D games, a year head start on the competition, affordable price, and there would have been an attempt to get MD developers to bridge over. The easier tools and development environment would be beneficial to first party and third party teams.

This would of course require the sunsetting of the MD early. Which may have been necessary. The delay with the Saturn along with the attempt to keep the MD alive, is what let to the first of several missteps and competitive reactions by SoA and SoJ.

You're very correct on 32X sales figures, it was a hot thing at lauch for 150 bucks, I think it was way less than the CD (wasn't that like 200-250?), but it would be either shortlived in the Saturn's original launch (September) or would have gotten a price cut to attract genesis owners who weren't going to change yet to the new console due to its much higher price at 400.

The problem is that Sega was keeping a bunch of consoles that didn't sell shit anymore, their focus should have been on keeping the Genesis as the affordable console for newcomers, especially considering that back then last gen consoles were much cheaper than new gen ones rather than being like 30% cheaper today, since the project had been paid off and they were likely having a good ROI on the units and software it would have boostened the pockets to even cover for the Saturn missteps in the west. And the Saturn as their new big thing in technology.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Your stretching the years to make 14 years sound legit. You already just dropped it to 7 years. Just because some games in the 80s had some digitized images or there were a small number of games on PC Engine CD or whatever with FMV doesn't mean it was a thing.

Hardly anyone gamed in the 80s with FMV, and there is no way 1990-1992 were CD roms widespread enough to make it a big. Perhaps 1993(?) for PC and then fall 1994 for Japanese Saturn/PS1 consoles launch is when FMW games became a hot thing as optical drives were standard features in hardware. In the early 90s, console gamers were mostly cartridges and most PC gamers were still on 1.44 floppies.

Man I guess people really do just have bad reading comprehension here. I didn't stretch anything it is near 14 years, and I said even IF we included just the 90's that's still 7 years, that's a long time for popularity and isn't a fad.

Arcades btw, the 80's, those were a thing... Arcades. i guess you forgot about those. There were millions of CD rom drives sold on PC at the end of 1992 btw, and then that more than tripled in 1992, which did even a greater rate in 1993, all 3 are the early 90's stop.

Myst being the killer app for PC CD rom was only released in 1993,

"14. MYST WAS THE "KILLER APP" THAT MADE CD-ROM DRIVES RELEVANT.

That was already relevant in 1992. Casual mainstream and "relevant" are not the same. They were already selling in droves and several manufactures were on coming out.

When it came to the console space the majority of FMV games were ports from PC or the arcade.

That's one way to ignore a large amount of the TGCD and Sega Cd's library. What arcade or PC was Sewer shark on? or several other of the FMVs? Yeah, there were some arcade ports but that's a bit of a reach there to say majority.

there is no way 1990-1992 were CD roms widespread enough to make it a big.

Guardian 1992:

FMV has been chased since late 1991, this is 1992 there were several releases that year and several companies jumping on, by the time this article came out were articles about fast CD Rom adoption and an expected search in the holidays (which did happen). The with several FMV games too boot.

It would have done even better if 7th Guest wasn't delayed. (Was delayed until 1993 as you will see with looking it up, it missed the 1992 time table).

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Also separately later 94:

You're very correct on 32X sales figures, it was a hot thing at lauch for 150 bucks, I think it was way less than the CD (wasn't that like 200-250?), but it would be either shortlived in the Saturn's original launch (September) or would have gotten a price cut to attract genesis owners who weren't going to change yet to the new console due to its much higher price at 400.

The problem is that Sega was keeping a bunch of consoles that didn't sell shit anymore, their focus should have been on keeping the Genesis as the affordable console for newcomers, especially considering that back then last gen consoles were much cheaper than new gen ones rather than being like 30% cheaper today, since the project had been paid off and they were likely having a good ROI on the units and software it would have boostened the pockets to even cover for the Saturn missteps in the west. And the Saturn as their new big thing in technology.

One of the reasons for that though is because Sega was trying to to prevent loss of cash, by trying to salvage and prolong things. The Genesis already had a price cut at some point at the time of the 32X, it wasn't being sustained despite still some anticipated software that year, the 32X was arguably a needed extension which was cut off before it could really do it justice. 32X should have had a price cut every year in parallel with the Saturn I think.

News Tribune Dec 17th:

Keep in mind that Christmas was not even 2 weeks away from this announcement, were expecting based on their trends 600,000 BY Christmas on Dec 25th. This article was Dec 17th. They were expecting a massive jump.

Sega really sabotaged themselves reducing the marketing and releases, stopping production, and then slowly cutting it off entirely. 32X has a potential to sell possibly 2-3 million units. Yet were still trying to salvage the Sega CD. I mean ugh.

This was as you pointed out, the back-up for the Saturn, or it could have been anyway.

 

[nush]

That's one way to ignore a large amount of the TGCD and Sega Cd's library. What arcade or PC was Sewer shark on? or several other of the FMVs? Yeah, there were some arcade ports but that's a bit of a reach there to say majority.

Let's count,

TGCD - 3 FMV games all PC ports
Sega CD 35 FMV games, 14 ports from other systems.

When faced with actual facts you're not very good at this are you?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Btw, some Canadian news of Sega backfiring the Saturn Times Colonist 1995:

Also notice how the reports at the time were referring to a Saturn 2 being made by Lockheed Martin. Wow imagine how expensive that consoles would have been if that was true.

Also goes into the Genesis kind of petering off, at this point the 32X was being gutted, and Sega was focusing more on holidays and not really promoting Genesis consistently. Add in evidence of the writer hearing about retailers being mad about the Saturn, along with Sega considering being a electronics manufacturer in line with the reports of their management turmoil.

Also one retail chain apparently was so mad about the Saturn that it send Sega back all their 32X inventory.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

The fact you had to dig to try and dimiss Wing Commander is one thing, but pretty much all the other games on the list are more FMV than wing commander, from Swat to Phantasmagoria.

I played a couple of these games... I mean, you dug them up somewhere, or are we not allowed to call you out?

7th guest and phantasmagoria are proper point and click adventures games.

FF VII is as much an FMV game as either of those (likely more so).

Corpse killer definitely is FMV based... And it's horrible.

Blade runner is a point and click adventure game with fmv intermissions.

So on and so forth...

Is red alert a FMV game because the story is told in video format? What about StarCraft?

Mortal Kombat has some filmed animations in its intro sequence, digitized animated characters, it's more FMV than any space combat simulator I have ever seen.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

R4Type4 and Crash 3 were pretty notably past what the peak of the Saturn could do in real-time. Many shared games also post 1996 were also starting to form an increasing gap as well.

At the very least it wasn't as even as you're implying.


The race in the 3D space hurt Namco and Sega and arguably helped the arcades decline because they were becoming to expensive across even the Btier models not just the top tier, some of which with problems or bad support, rotation constantly changing, and gamers were not coming in the drives expected, this also led to operators jumping out and telling them both the piss off. When you saw at many malls, fairs, parks, etc that had arcade machines what were the popular machines that were out and many people were paying hard coin for, it wasn't usually these Namco and Sega games, for every Jurassic park there was a Crusin, Sanfrancisco Rush, Marvel Vs. Capcom, Wrestlemania, Blitz, and even Namco and Sega stuff like Outrun, and Pacman.

In addition to the factors above, Namco and Sega also were disorganized with their arcade hardware and how they were promoting and selling them, or working with distributors.

It wasn't just their then current output that was the problem, but popular games from previous hardware was also rotated around. They were still doing this going into 2000.


The Xbox One launch was fantastic. Long-term issues wouldn't show until months later. Almost all the pre-launch controversy was already over when the console launched. Same as PS4, sold 1 million in 24 hrs, both of which were records then.

As for 3D Arcades, you are talking about the system that was much more expensive and complex than a home console with help from a US military contractor. So it makes sense why the Saturn wouldn't have been a translation of that into console from unless you wanted the console to be more bulky and cost $900.

You are right though about Sega not hiding their weaknesses, instead they became more apparently because they kept reacting and chasing, Atari did the same with the Jaguar, both the Jaguar and the Saturn excelled at 2D games, and for 3D games they could have made some nice looking titles around the limitations instead of creating some of the messed that ended up coming out trying to catch the competition, and without the time to do it.

But I disagree with blaming SoA though, it was mostly Sega of Japan that screwed up the Saturn. They are also the reason why there weren't carry over games from the genesis in the launch year, or at least not much of them if any.

As for the Sega CD well.

The PC Engine CD in Japan sold 2.92 million based on threads on here, which may be missing a few months, and while it flopped in the US, it may be possible enough Turbo duos, and TG16 CD add-ons helped make the total reach 3 million.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/retro-sales-age-thread.981407/page-3
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/retro-sales-age-thread.981407/page-2

Sega sold an estimated give or take 2.24 million Segas Cds in comparison, and while the bulk of PC Engine CD sales were in 3 years, Sega's number was over 5 years, and two years were the peak of the Genesis and mindshare in NA and the West that NEC never had, with popular series MK and Sonic at the fore front along with novelty titles for Genesis owners with interactive video, where as NEC was a domestic darling with a fledging system that the CD extended the life off that flopped everywhere BUT Japan.

That puts the Sega CD performance in worse light, and how they bumbled marketing and handling it with consumers.

You are completely right with your very in depth and brilliant analysis, I was wrong and I only wish that I could come up with similar analysis by myself. I did not want to admit it at first because I am jealous and I apologize for wasting everyone's time and possibly misleading them.

Me

You

I beg for your forgiveness and understanding.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

TGCD - 3 FMV games all PC ports

It came from the desert is a PC Port now? Why do you continue to talk about things you know nothing about? It's not even the same game and has a different plot with FMV, which the original didn't have. Sherlock Vol II was also not a port, only the first one was.

Sega CD 35 FMV games, 14 ports from other systems.

Interesting, because you said this:

When it came to the console space the majority of FMV games were ports from PC or the arcade.

I'm just going off your post here.

Apparently you can't do basic math, 50% of 35 isn't 14, so it can't be 51% either. Do you know that 14 out of 35 isn't a majority? Thanks for proving my point it's a stretch to say it's the majority.

That's using YOUR numbers btw, with what YOU posted (which are inaccurate but it doesn't really matter in this case)

 

[chromhound]

They couldn't handle the 3D World

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

7th guest and phantasmagoria are proper point and click adventures games.

Yes, FMV adventure games, as they were and still are called.

FF VII is as much an FMV game as either of those (likely more so).

And now you have proven you haven't played the games.

At this point you're disagreeing with years of gaming industry coverage, and game developers themselves, you're saying them naming these FMV games are wrong, but are trying to put it all on me so it doesn't seem like both of you are baffoons for going against factual history that's clearly documented and still factual in the industry today evne the new Tex Murphy is called an fmv game.

There's even a big ass news article form the 90's I posted above that goes over this too. At this point you and lolush have lost the argument and are now making pointless arguments just to argue. No one agrees with you, no one now, and no one then as proven above. Sorry. Whole industry called what you said aren't FMV games, FMV games, no one consensually called FFVII an FMV game, and the fact you think that FFVII can even be argued to be more of an FMV game than Phantasmagoria shows you're full of crap.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Yes, FMV adventure games, as they were and still are called.


And now you have proven you haven't played the games.

At this point you're disagreeing with years of gaming industry coverage, and game developers themselves, you're saying them naming these FMV games are wrong, but are trying to put it all on me so it doesn't seem like both of you are baffoons for going against factual history that's clearly documented and still factual in the industry today evne the new Tex Murphy is called an fmv game.

There's even a big ass news article form the 90's I posted above that goes over this too. At this point you and lolush have lost the argument and are now making pointless arguments just to argue. No one agrees with you, no one now, and no one then as proven above. Sorry. Whole industry called what you said aren't FMV games, FMV games, no one consensually called FFVII an FMV game, and the fact you think that FFVII can even be argued to be more of an FMV game than Phantasmagoria shows you're full of crap.

 

[gypsygib]

Yakuaza is one of my favourite series out there that most reliably gets my money so Sega can continue making great games.

As a Master System, Genesis, Game Gear, Nomad, and DC owner, Sonic games peaked a long long time ago and Arcade style games are dead. Try an AA/AAA Altered Beast action horror brutality game with elements of Resident Evil and Dark Souls.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

Eh, they could move it to the Saturn.


Gamegear never gave gameboy a run for it's Money, The Lynx initially did but Atari couldn't produce the console in the quantities they wanted as time went on, they made profit off the console though, Gameboy was already quite a bit ahead before the GG came out. Sega had better reach over time hence the second place and estimated double digit millions sold, yet one could argue that wasn't worth it by the end. Especially since they couldn't sustain it, or come up with viable follow up. The Nomad on paper seemed like a good idea but it was executed poorly and that's BEFORE factoring in the battery problem and other issues with the hardware.

It also didn't help that the Game Gear didn't really have much in the way of big or modest selling hits. Even Sonic wasn't all that hot on the device despite numerous games, same with MK, it was basically the Sega CD situation but on portable more affordable hardware that had better reach internationally.

Forget about Segas answer to Tetris, what was Segas answer to even the upper hundred thousand sellers? Or the 1-3 million sellers? The software wasn't driving console production despite Sega having quite a bit of it relative to other competition.

Sega would need some system movers to sell even a third of what the Gameboy sold let alone catch up, and I don't really think that was possible. Sega would have to complete revamp their strategy.


The context was he was saying FMV in general wasn't a thing. FMV had been a thin since the 80's. The idea is to confuse people by switching the posts around and misquoting.

But responding to you specifically, the CD-rom era started in 1990.FMV games were increasing in output since 1991, and 1993 where some of the first MAJOR sellers, not just big, came out, was still early 90's. Heck, Mad Dog and Night Trap came out in 92 Also the console CD-roms had their own too.

Even if you were to be dishonest and pretend the 80's never happened, 1991-1998 is 7 years, that's not a fad, especially since it sold more and more toward the end of that time frame before the sales cratered (like Ripper for example, though it had a good start). Also several have been rereleased, some have been remasters, some got sequels (Tex Murphy 2014 for example) and some were put on various services like GoG.

1991 was when the CD-drives were becoming widely adopted and non-mainstream brands were cutting the price down, 2x drives were becoming standard, 3x drives were weird, and 4x drives were the premium thing by 1993.

The games sales themselves, as well as how known some of these brands are speak for itself.

I get some people dislike FMV, and that's fine, in fact, FMV adventure games seem to be what people THESE days the only ones that are considered viable outside nostalgia for Dragons Lair or Time gal and such, or maybe RebelAssault WC, etc, but let's not pretend that FMV was some small thing barely anyone played and was some minority fad when it wasn't.

Most people who don't know much about it think of Creature shock or those weird games like who shot johnny rock, and ignore the interactive FMV games and Adventure FMV games which where most of the popularity was outside some hits like Rebel Assault and others.

eternal blue saturn was never released in usa... remember?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

eternal blue saturn was never released in usa... remember?

I meant in the event the SegaCD would be discontinued, they'd just localize the Saturn version.

This is all hypothetical of course.

They'd likely just fiddle with the PS version which was localized from what I recall.

 

[nush]

I'm just going off your post here.

Apparently you can't do basic math, 50% of 35 isn't 14, so it can't be 51% either. Do you know that 14 out of 35 isn't a majority? Thanks for proving my point it's a stretch to say it's the majority.

That's using YOUR numbers btw, with what YOU posted (which are inaccurate but it doesn't really matter in this case)

I have been defeated by math, the only factual thing you've posted in this entire topic.

Sherlock Vol II was also not a port, only the first one was.

Why do you continue to talk about things you know nothing about? Sherlock Vol II was a DOS games released in 1992, the TGCD version released a year later was a port.

Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective - Volume II

Remember Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective - Volume II, an old video game from 1992? Download it and play again on MyAbandonware.

www.myabandonware.com

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I have been defeated by math, the only factual thing you've posted in this entire topic.

I guess you gotta ignore those news scans too so you can keep lying to extent you argument, but sadly since you have yet to post ANYTHING AT ALL. I'm afraid there's really no need to go further until you post anything of substances backing your wrong rants.

Sherlock Vol II was a DOS games released in 1992, the TGCD version released a year later was a port.

http://[URL][URL]https://www.myaban...ock-holmes-consulting-detective-volume-ii-33d

[/URL][/URL]

Nope. That's the TTI Duo release, not the original release which was late 1992. But I'll give you the NA/US version came out in 1993 though, you needed some points after all these losses.




Separately reposting this in case you missed it:

Doesn't look like some minor thing that didn't go anywhere if 280k sales were already made before a game was released.

 

[tkscz]

What do you mean what happened?

Sega always made baffling decisions even during the arcade days.

Developers at Sega had to put their arcade game on broken TVs in order to trick higher ups from releasing their games too early. A problem Sega still has today as they constantly release games before they're ready or had proper testing.

While the Genesis/Mega Drive was successful, they kept trying to keep it going well past it's prime. The Sega CD was way too expensive with very few games making it worth the price at the time, the 32x was literally an attempt to make the Genesis a next-gen console, even though the Saturn was already in development.

Speaking of which, do I need to mention everything wrong with the Saturn? Sega making 2D the main focus while everyone was clearly moving to 3D. Trying to rush itself into the market before Sony as an attempt to out sell it. And while I saw Yuji Naka's tweeter post about the absolute master work he did in assembly to get the Nights engine working, that still didn't Hell, they stopped selling the console in the US years before the Dreamcast was announced.

Not really much to complain about when it comes to the Dreamcast though. I wish they went with Voodoo over NEC but that's just nitpicking. Honestly Sega did a lot to make sure the Dreamcast should've succeeded, I really don't know what went wrong there. But they got lucky that a Japanese business owner really liked them and bailed them out of bankruptcy.

 

[pramod]

Oops wrong thread

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Sega always made baffling decisions even during the arcade days.

Cmon, you dont think Sega was a focused company?

How could Nintendo and Sony compete with this combo?

 

[cireza]

R4Type4 and Crash 3

Two late 1998 games. The last reasonably ambitious games on Saturn were 1997 releases. We don't have equivalent games to compare.

Many shared games also post 1996 were also starting to form an increasing gap as well.

And there are many 1996 and 1997 games that were just as good on Saturn. Nothing is proven.

 

[Nikodemos]

Cmon, you dont think Sega was a focused company?

How could Nintendo and Sony compete with this combo?

That Virtua Racing cartridge really ties the image together.

For the folks that don't know, Virtua Racing is the only Mega Drive game which uses the SVP, Sega's accelerator chip (their response to Nintendo's Super-FX).

EDIT: though I think the 32X version didn't have it, since it didn't really need it in the first place.

 

[Ansphn]

Playstation happened. Playstation was cut throat too back in those days.

 

[Nikodemos]

Playstation happened. Playstation was cut throat too back in those days.

Sony were notably less cutthroat with the Playstation than early '90s Howard Lincoln-era Nintendo and their bullshit mafia lawyer tricks. What they had, on the other hand, was loads'a money.

 

[Daniel Thomas MacInnes]

I'm going to admit here that I was a former Saturn developer (yes I'm incredibly old). By the time 1997 or so rolled around, there were pretty good C libraries available for Saturn devs to use for 3D, and it even made using the VDP2 to integrate "fake" 3D backgrounds into your games really easy to do.
To be honest, at that time (around 1997), it was actually easier to develop 3D games for the Saturn than the Playstation, the standard 3D libraries for PS devs were a lot more low level and required more work.
Of course it was a bit too late, since the Saturn was pretty much dead already.

Ah, that's great to see software developers visiting here. Who did you work with back in the '90s? Which Saturn games were you involved with? Any good insights or stories to share?

 

[Nikodemos]

It also had many console level games put on a portable screen, and while there were many games that weren't, many gamers who actually got Game Gears experienced them and were frustrated by the experience, and some articles i recall were questioning if Sega actually tested these games on the game Gear instead of something else.

Yes, the Master System hardware wasn't suited for a portable, and Master System games were generally intended to be played on a TV, rather than a tiny-ass LCD. What surprises me is that they actually tried the exact same thing again later, with the Nomad.

Now, would it have been better IF the 32X didn't exist? Debatable, especially since Sega was screwing up sustaining the Mega Drive and that 32X life extension to some extent did actually work. Of course, there's also the argument that they could have put a handful of the early 32X games on the Saturn and killing the Genesis may have been justified.

As I may have already mentioned, the 32X had two fundamental issues.
1. It cannibalized resources away from Saturn games in a way that base Mega Drive 16-bit games didn't. Especially early on, when the knowledge pool for 32-bit development was relatively small. Hence my comment about Nakayama's hypocrisy, who had no qualms to kill 16-bit development, but approved a design which directly competed with their flagship for dev hours.
2. It was yet another expand-on for a console whose flaws made it particularly poorly suited for expand-ons. Which they already knew from the Sega CD experience.
A case could be made for a third issue, namely that cartridges were quickly becoming a limiting factor in game development (something the N64 ran headlong into later as well). Cartridges were also physically more expensive and time consuming to manufacture than CDs, which meant cartridge games would have to be sold for higher prices than their CD counterparts. Having a game for the B-tier console cost more than one for the flagship was bad business, to put mildly.

Really I think a lot of these mistakes and poor decisions trace back to one decision: To Keep the Genesis/Mega Drive around, or kill it.

This would of course require the sunsetting of the MD early. Which may have been necessary. The delay with the Saturn along with the attempt to keep the MD alive, is what let to the first of several missteps and competitive reactions by SoA and SoJ.

While it's true that the MD architecture was compromised in several areas, there was genuinely no reason to kill it. It still had decent sales in the US and Europe. Sure, the shine had started to come off after the SNES came on the scene, but it could still hold its own in a few areas, as long as the dev team knew how to use its tricks to their fullest. Remember that Nintendo kept the lights on for the SNES until circa '97. There's no good reason why the MD couldn't have received some measure of support until at least '96.

 

[Fatnick]

There's no good reason why the MD couldn't have received some measure of support until at least '96.

The final game released by SOA was the (relatively obscure) Genesis version of the Lost World - released in 1997!

 

[Celine]

Negative, the 32X was a reaction to the Jaguar, as I mentioned above in the previous post, the idea was to have similarities between the 32X and the Saturn to aid development transition, the 32X likely wouldn't have existed if the Jaguar demos didn't show higher capability than the model 1 arcade machine, which was 1993, the Jaguar demos and a test launch happened later that same year (Sega didn't know about the 3DO until later), extending the life of the Genesis was a side benefit, as making the 32X an add-on would make it accessible to a large base, while still being able to play Genesis titles, instead of a standalone 32X console (which they did plan to do later for some reason).

Both Nakayama and Kalinske gaves speeches in which they explicitly told that the reason why the 32X was commercialized was for the concern they had about the sellability in US of high priced next-gen consoles (including the Saturn).

Hayao Nakayama speech at the Securities Analysts Association of Japan meeting, July 26, 1994:
This year’s holiday season will see the fight begin between Sony and Sega. The question at the forefront of everyone’s mind is how many units a 50,000-yen console can sell, but this is something that we’ll never know without trying. Regardless, within the Japanese market, our efforts will be centered on the Saturn. Regarding the 3DO, our predictions are generally coming true. Matsushita is applying its full force in Japan to drive sales of about 150,000 units, and by the end of the year this might reach 200,000 or 250,000 units. However, in America, the 3DO has not been very well received, and it’s still not selling well at all. I’d call it an overwhelming defeat. If you make a mistake with a launch in the American market, it’s very difficult to recover. The first problem is that retailers won’t carry your product. Therefore, neither Sony nor Sega is going to put our 32-bit consoles on the market in America. Of course, that doesn’t mean we’ll never release them there. At Sega, we’ve come up with a new strategy, something never before done. That strategy is to compete in the American and Japanese markets with different game consoles.

In America, Sega will release a 32-bit console called the Genesis 32X. This is an attachment for the current 16-bit console that will turn it into a 32-bit console, and it doesn’t have a CD-ROM drive. It uses cartridges. Our 16-bit console has sold over 10 million units in America, so it will be possible for those users to convert their current 16-bit consoles into new 32-bit powered consoles and to experience 32-bit games for a price of around $150, rather than $500. This is the strategy we’ve decided to pursue in America.

Putting out two consoles at the same time is going to create confusion in the market, so we’re going to clearly divide our strategy. Up to now, we’ve released our consoles first in Japan and then after that in America. However, now we’re trying something different: we’re going to release different consoles at the same time in each region. With the current trends, I think this is the best marketing strategy for us.

The 16-bit home console market has finally peaked, and we’re currently in the down season. Therefore, I don’t expect the new console generation to really take off until next year’s Christmas season. The new console hardware is being launched in a hurry, so it’s not going to be a sudden explosive growth in business like we’ve seen so far. This will be true for Nintendo as well. Even with a lot of support, the big take off phase won’t be this year, but rather next year.
--------------------
Tom Kalinske interview with Next-Generation magazine:





Probably in 1994 neither Nakayama nor Kalinske predicted that by May 1996 PS1 would be $199 in US (and N64 would debut the following September at the same price).
The technical gulf between PS1/N64 and 32X is so big which makes the latter looks like a joke.

32X wasn't really dividing resources either, people say this but can't really articulate how.

Of course 32x was diverging resources.
To commercialize any game platform a company need to invest money, (employees) time and resources (for marketing, the purchase of components, for evangelizing the platform among third-party developers, for shipping and storage associated costs).
It's in the platform holder best interest to diverge all the resources available to obtain a smooth transition between an old platforn and the successor because most of the near future profits will depend on how well software will sell on the new platform.

But all of this is irrelevant, Sega was rapidly losing money before the 32X launch was even a factor, and were losing arcade revenue and decided to "fix that" by going all in with no safety net on their Model 3 Idea in 1996, as the expectation was they would be so far ahead, they would have a segment of arcades to themselves and people would spend coins in droves, well that didn't happen, because Midway and Atari put out some big titles, and then later Namco, that while not as impressive and technically advanced, weren't that far off and were still better than pretty much everything else in the arcades.

Since the fiscal year ending March 1994 until the fiscal year ending March 1998, the revenue of both Amusement Center Operations division and Arcade Machine sales division kept increasing.
Both divisions were also profitable, unlike Sega Consumer division (console) which was losing money since FY95.

 

[Celine]

I disagree with the 32X though, the 32X was the most understandable, as you put it, reaction Sega made. People constantly get the 32X story long, it could have been a benefit to developers to learn the Saturn, it could have been a platform to push up-ports to expand the Saturn library, it sold faster and well until it was neglected then cut off, which ended up creating consumer and retailer side-effect that harmed the Saturn.

You are overstating the similarities between Saturn and 32X.
Both shared the same CPU, that's it.

While it's true that the MD architecture was compromised in several areas, there was genuinely no reason to kill it. It still had decent sales in the US and Europe. Sure, the shine had started to come off after the SNES came on the scene, but it could still hold its own in a few areas, as long as the dev team knew how to use its tricks to their fullest. Remember that Nintendo kept the lights on for the SNES until circa '97. There's no good reason why the MD couldn't have received some measure of support until at least '96.

As noted by Fatnick Sega kept releasing first-party games on Genesis until 1997.
Looking at the top 20 best selling games in US for each year between 1995 and 2000 (source: NPD; ranked by dollar sales) I wonder if Sega was disappointed by the sales of first-party games during the latter years of the Genesis.
After all the golden rule in the gaming business was always that the big profits are made on software (and now also on services).
The difference in presence between Nintendo and Sega first-party games is staggering:

 

[Fatnick]

As noted by Fatnick Sega kept releasing first-party games on Genesis until 1997.
Looking at the top 20 best selling games in US for each year between 1995 and 2000 (source: NPD) I wonder if Sega was disappointed by the sales of first-party games during the latter years of the Genesis.
After all the golden rule in the gaming business was always that the big profits are made on software (and now also on services).

In fact, the latest translated article over at Mdshock provides the answer to that question! As of February 1996, in Japan they were comparing the 16-bit market to the Atari Shock crash. The hardware had matured to the point where selling it wasn't costing them anything, the (first hand?) software wasn't selling so they weren't making a profit either.

I think the arcade (and the often forgotten theme park) aspect is an important part of the puzzle but one that needs to be looked at in a little more depth. The 13 million yen increase between 1994 and 5 in the amusement center column hides the relatively failure of Sega's Galbo line, for example.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Probably in 1994 neither Nakayama nor Kalinske predicted that by May 1996 PS1 would be $199 in US (and N64 would debut the following September at the same price).
The technical gulf between PS1/N64 and 32X is so big which makes the latter looks like a joke.

Tekken was also 60 fps, had CD quality sound, cut scenes, and the gamepad had more buttons which made every game have more moves or doing combo button presses easier.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Sega making 2D the main focus while everyone was clearly moving to 3D.

I think Sega gets hit hard for this unfairly because in 1992 it wasn't really clear where the MARKET was going, the industry was going in the direction of 3D and FMV on computers and several consoles or third-parties were also going in that direction, but there were some players that thought Video only was the future, or at least it was for awhile until 3D got better and 3D wasn't practicle. These were consoles developers mostly and hardware manufactures that weren't keeping tabs on the home micro market since 1988 which were pumping out 3D games, which makes sense because parts of Europe, and especially Japan more importantly in this case, computer industry was collapsing and they didn't really have Amigas and ST's around, and the most notable 3D capable computers there were incredibly expensive and out of reach. Add in the attempt to push the computer industry out the brink after NEC was falling apart was FM Towns, which was mostly a 2D machine, and it's no wonder that for Japanese companies the direction wasn't clear.

I mean Nec's (really Hudsons) next console after sabotaging the TG16/PC Engine, was literally a FMV interactive device with some incredibly clear and smooth quality enhanced 16-bit games. Thse 2D games looked fantastic but they weren't improvements over the SNES generally, and the best of them were barely better than early NEo-Geo outside superb image quality and colors. But the main selling point of the PCFX was FMV. It was marketed and gathered press attention for an FMV CG fighting game, which even now still looks interesting, of course it never actually existed and people got Battle Heat instead but that's the direction NEC felt things were going based on the popularity of the format.

Then you had like what, 5 or 6 companies that went with upgraded 2D gameplay, and iirc 2 that were focused on arcade conversions. Then there were companies that were using CG in place of 3D thinking 3D was too early, another possible direction people were considering at the time, where instead of say a racing game with polygon graphics they would use CG instead and try to substitute that in place of a polygon car, or for maybe an adventure or third person game.

Really in 1992-early 1993 3DO and Jaguar were the only ones actually pushing 3D at the time outside of computer platforms. Which explains why Sega reacted as they did to the Jaguar, and then to the Playstation, which rode off the 3DO direction in the market.

As much as people think 3D was a sure thing at the time for the direction of game,s it really wasn't at that time. That was a cross roads, and for those that did think 3D was the future, there was skepticism of how early it was. Remember most of these reporters and game general PC/Console game devs didn't play 3D games that were on the St/Amiga, so they really got early PC stuff which before 1992 was generally limited with varying quality especially with what build of PC the average household had. Something like Checkered Flag on the Jag was a dream at the time before the console actually came out. Sega was thinking basically that the best a high-end console could do was maybe model 1 graphics or likely a bit lesser.

heck, even when Sega went in on 3D, they still focused a bit too much on arcade conversions which in many cases didn't do them any favors on the Saturn, though it did on the Dreamcast but they arguably went even MORE overboard on arcade conversions on that. Nothing wrong with those but they can't really sell a system alone in 1998-2000.

 

[Nikodemos]

In fact, the latest translated article over at Mdshock provides the answer to that question! As of February 1996, in Japan they were comparing the 16-bit market to the Atari Shock crash. The hardware had matured to the point where selling it wasn't costing them anything, the (first hand?) software wasn't selling so they weren't making a profit either.

That article doesn't make sense. 16-bit consoles are selling well, but games aren't? Then why are people buying them? They're not that good looking to act as conversation pieces. I think there was more going on.
Oh, and I bet Sega's massive writedown included all those unsold Game Gears, Sega CDs etc.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Two late 1998 games. The last reasonably ambitious games on Saturn were 1997 releases. We don't have equivalent games to compare.

Yes, however, the Saturn was already cutting corners for those 1997 games to reach what they did, and were already putting strain on the hardware. So while yes, we don't have major 1998 games to compare, it's still debatable the Saturn couldn't do much better than those top 1997 games.

I mean if we are being honest, there isn't much of a comparison on the Saturn to Crash 2 as well. Which was a 1997 game.

However, I will saw that the Saturn was more capable than what people said, however, I think the claim that it was "even" with the PSX is a little bit of a stretch.

Yes, the Master System hardware wasn't suited for a portable, and Master System games were generally intended to be played on a TV, rather than a tiny-ass LCD. What surprises me is that they actually tried the exact same thing again later, with the Nomad.

A lot of people forget but the portable Genesis, was teased for quite some time, picking up after the Turbo Express, people knew Sega was going to do it eventually, but no one expected HOW they would do it, badly.

2. It was yet another expand-on for a console whose flaws made it particularly poorly suited for expand-ons. Which they already knew from the Sega CD experience.
A case could be made for a third issue, namely that cartridges were quickly becoming a limiting factor in game development (something the N64 ran headlong into later as well). Cartridges were also physically more expensive and time consuming to manufacture than CDs, which meant cartridge games would have to be sold for higher prices than their CD counterparts. Having a game for the B-tier console cost more than one for the flagship was bad business, to put mildly.

Well considering the Jaguar influence in part to the 32X's strategy the cartridge focus may have seemed viable to Sega at the time. Plus an excuse to extent the life of the Mega Drive. of course ironically the issue you just mentioned actually impacted the Jaguar pretty much at launch so it's all quite funny. In fact, so much so that popular Jaguar games that could sell systems couldn't be produced in high numbers to take advantage of it, games like Rayman, Alien Vs Predator, and others. Add in the fact that they in turn wouldn't be able to bring in enough money from software sales to produce more hardware, also limited how much hardware they could produce, ship to retailers and sell.

Of course early on this wasn't obvious. Atari had some of the best fog PR people in the business I tell ya.

Probably in 1994 neither Nakayama nor Kalinske predicted that by May 1996 PS1 would be $199 in US (and N64 would debut the following September at the same price).
The technical gulf between PS1/N64 and 32X is so big which makes the latter looks like a joke

Huh? No one denies the 32X was weaker than the Saturn/PS1, heck the 32X is weaker than the Jaguar even in the early days. Though they had a better presentation and marketing campaign that brought that into question on whether the Jag was weaker or stronger.

Both Nakayama and Kalinske gaves speeches in which they explicitly told that the reason why the 32X was commercialized was for the concern they had about the sellability in US of high priced next-gen consoles (including the Saturn).

Yes that was part of it, but Scott Bayless, Marty Franze, and others say that the Jaguar was also part of that Nakayama meeting and was separately something that was needed to be responded to.

In addition, Videogames Hardware Handbook Vol. II p241 Scott Bayless quote:

but the essence of the call was that we needed to respond to Atari's Jaguar and we needed to do it right away."

Also in Retroinspection:

" Bayless recalls the 32X development origins at Winter CES 1994 in Las Vegas. Joe Miller, Head of Sega of America Research and Development, called Bayless and a couple of others into a teleconference with Hayao Nakayama. The call resulted in a move away from an enhanced Megadrive, apparently being worked on by Sega of Japan's Hideki Sato, toward a response to Atari's Jaguar. To which Joe Miller, according to Bayless, pushed for letting Sega of America develop a solution. Nakayama agreed, and the 32X was conceived on a hotel notepad when Marty Franz sketched two Hitachi SH-2 processors with individual frame buffers. Bayless continued by explaining that Sato's "Jupiter" was squeezed out due to cost factors by the 32X. McFerran then interjects his first positive statement: "From an engineering standpoint, the machine certainly had a lot of potential." 6 Bayless opines that the 32X's graphics subsystem was "brilliantly simple: something of a coder's dream" with "twice the depth per pixel of anything else out there." 7 The way the 32X handles 3D, Bayless supposes, was not being attempted "outside the workstation market." 8

McFerran then calls for a consideration of "the state of the market at the start of 1994." 17 The editor claims the 3DO and Jaguar caused "nervous glances ... from Sega and Nintendo" before asserting "16-bit games were beginning to look look terribly outdated." 18 The only observation McFerran offers on the actual state of the market in 1994 is that "something was certainly needed to keep the momentum going." 19 In reality the US game industry, which Sega as a company had become dependent on, had entered "a three-year slump in 1993" with Nintendo reporting twenty-four and thirty-two percent drops in profits the next two years respectively.20 According to Financial World's Kathleen Morrison though, Nintendo actually lost forty percent of its profits from 1992 to 1993 whereas Sega's earnings dropped sixty-four percent the same year.21

And then you have actions like Tom kalinske taking sly swipes at the Jaguar port of Doom for not having music in an Edge interview:

On one of the other systems there's no sound, and i can't imagine a game without sound. It would be like watching a movie with the sound turned off

Because according to Scott Bayless the 32X version was in turmoil:

"I spent weeks working with Id Software’s John Carmack, who literally camped out at the Sega of America building in Redwood City trying to get Doom ported. That guy worked his ass off and he still had to cut a third of the levels to get it done in time. What amazes me now is that with all that going on, nobody at Sega was willing to say "Wait a minute, what are we doing? Why don’t we just stop?" Sega should have killed the 32X in the spring of 1994, but we didn’t. We stormed the hill, and when we got to the top we realized it was the wrong damn hill."

Which btw, Carmack did the Jaguar version.

So the Jaguar was definitely a factor involved, and this is just with a few references to it, there are others, but bottom line yes a lot of what you said does apply, however so does the Jaguar.

Sega was known for reacting multiple ways to multiple things in an unorganized fashion so this isn't surprising.

You are overstating the similarities between Saturn and 32X.
Both shared the same CPU, that's it.

I didn't say they were the same entirely so no I didn't, I said that devs could have used the experience for coding on the 32X to make it easier for them to code for the Saturn compared to if they didn't, and that's true.

That doesn't mean that they would be making top tier Saturn titles out the gate, a lot of the issue would still be present. but at least the wouldn't start from zero. Marginal improvement is better than nothing, especially given we are talking about the Saturn.