runnin_blue
Banned
Sorry you don't understand try reading it again slowly.
If freedom of speech means jack shit on forums then what is the point of this thread?
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Sexism in the Star Citizen forums [Update: RSI responds]
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
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Sorry you don't understand try reading it again slowly.
If freedom of speech means jack shit on forums then what is the point of this thread?
AnotherDustInTheWind
Banned
You do not have freedom of speech on this forum. Or most forums.
runnin_blue
Banned
Lol.
And here we go...
And here we go...
What AnotherDustInTheWind means is that you're not necessarily entitled to freedom of speech by default on a forum.
The people who created the forum are free to set their own rules for what type of speech is appropriate, because they're a private community that you're not obligated to participate in.
It's to criticize their handling of this incident and hoping to make them change their mind?
In the end they can do whatever they want, it's their forum. But it is also our money funding them. I fail to see how implementing special discussion forums somehow impedes freedom of speech.
I'm sorry if I'm being dumb, feel free to expand on your argument.
I dont think he was talking about that, I think he was talking about Marcels revulsion to talking about anything other then what Marcel wanted everyone to talk about.
runnin_blue
Banned
My original point to Marcel was that people have the right to have a differing opinion to her and not be shot down and told they're wrong ad nauseum. Especially when most of these people are in no way condoning sexism.
But, I've been in this situation before, I know how it's going to end so I think I'll be smart and head to bed.
Goodnight peeps
Edit:
Exactly. That's why I asked him/her to read it again. Thanks & good night.
AnotherDustInTheWind
Banned
That's because Marcel is focusing on the overall problem at hand, not derailing the topic by slapping on silly statements. This tactic itself is a frustrating problem documented well in regards to discussing sexism openly especially on forums. You get a million people coming out of the woodworks to bring up anything and everything in order to preserve status quo all in guise of free speech. No. It's not about free speech, it's about our bullish tendencies towards feminist issues. Realize. This.
This bullish attitude itself is in itself a tried and true sexist tactic.
You have a political right to hold differing opinions but you do not have a right to have those opinions go unchallenged. If you did, you would be removing others' right to hold differing opinions. On a forum you have few actual rights because it's a private operation you are not compelled to participate in.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Great post. I think this situation was ill handled by everyone, through the words of the member this revolves around and the actions of the . But then again I have no knowledge of Something Awful, nor am I a member of Star Citizen forums to know the real depth of the issues.
Sadly though, I'm seeing too many people either willing to dismiss the thoughts and feelings (and in such the actions of the CMs) or looking to put anyone's head on a spike that aren't 100% in full support of her. Which is rather par for course whenever any sort of topic of sexism, racism, contempts of culture, and I suppose privilege are brought up here. Disappointing since these are some of the most important topics in this community (others regarding laws, non-discrimatory practices).
We also had asshats in the Wasteland2 Beta message board that wanted to include rape gangs and KKK like militias and built in slavery and racism into the games and forced prostitution and everything else because "civilization was dead and savagery rules the post-apocalypse". These were people seriously trying to suggest that to be a part of the game. it's like they wanted their evil wankery material, and forgot it's supposed to be a fucking game, that's fun for people. Not just Cormac Macarthy sociopaths.
i just wanted to punch them in the head. But I had to do it with words instead. Some people shouldn't be allowed to be on the internet. They should just be "on punishment" for life, until they grow up.
i just wanted to punch them in the head. But I had to do it with words instead. Some people shouldn't be allowed to be on the internet. They should just be "on punishment" for life, until they grow up.
Oh yeah I remember that. I stopped contributing to the Wasteland 2 forums because those types of discussions got weird and creepy. At least the beta is good but as usual the community surrounding the official forums is generally bad. Wasn't there some aggressive sexist vitriol with regards to something in Mighty No. 9 as well?
My original point to Marcel was that people have the right to have a differing opinion to her and not be shot down and told they're wrong ad nauseum. Especially when most of these people are in no way condoning sexism.
But, I've been in this situation before, I know how it's going to end so I think I'll be smart and head to bed.
Goodnight peeps
Uh, if someone is wrong then they're wrong. And I haven't seen a single post where she has told someone to stop posting or to shut up? Sure some would say she's been argumentative, but isn't that kind of the point of a forum? to argue? I would guess having to experience these same issues over and over might be tiring and wears your patience thin I would think.
VVVVV
20XX
ThreePiMatt
Member
Never. They're going to keep pulling in money and keep expanding the scope of the game. Its the ultra-troll.
Full Squadron 42 will be probably released around Q4 2015.
Beta of Star Citizen probably Q1 of 2016, full SC release probably Q3 of 2016.
AnotherDustInTheWind
Banned
Exactly. Us guys don't understand the frequency of sexism and the build up of frustration. Reading thru this thread, you might come under the impression that some of us don't even know women might exist.
To be fair I did say "put up or shut up" but context is key there. I was asking for doomed1 to provide actual evidence aside from past slights or anecdotal video game drama/sob stories about a goon conspiracy. He ultimately provided excuses.
I'm sorry, but what exactly do you think would become of the topic at hand if all we did is talk about exactly what Marcel wanted to talk about? You think it would make people more willing to add a protective sub forum for women, simply because that is all we talk about in this topic? I'm sorry, but that comes across as pedantic and is nothing short of bloviating what good would come from ONLY talking about the overall problem. Beyond that Marcel isn't really discussing much of anything, but only pointing out how horrible person A, B, or C is(for the most part). So what exactly is the overall problem at hand that talking about only what Marcel wants, would in turn be solved? It is completely possible to have multiple discussions on a topic, you dont need to pigeonhole the entire conversation into 1 point. There really isnt a whole lot to say on the subject. You either think groups should be able to create sub forums to protect themselves from harassment and ect or you dont. That said, this topic has much more "how much sexism is actually on the board", then any discussion about being able to create exclusionary groups(even compared to the Goon hatred).
I mean, what exactly do you want out of the topic, before its ok to talk about goon and peoples dislike for them or something else that pertains to the topic? I think most people are fine, in this topic, with creating a sub forum, so what else is there to discuss on that point? The inference that people dont have the ability to talk about subpoints without marginalizing the over all point is silly, you dont need to talk to death 1 particular thing, because someone wants it to be the case.
AnotherDustInTheWind
Banned
The point is that this thread from the get go was never about focusing on sexism but myriad of side statements meant to derail the topic.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
More accurate to say we don't really know it firsthand. My female friends who talk about it, here and in real life, have certainly given me a secondhand sense of just how much shit women have to put up with.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
I just don't see the problem. Some dudes would be happy just to be able to see what the women were saying. Why? So that they don't plot to overthrow the in-game patriarchy or some nonsense?
Why do we need to keep tabs on them? They've outlined some pretty solid reasons for wanting their own sanctuary of sorts, and I think they're pretty reasonable. Living as a woman is markedly different from living as a man. They want a women-only section about as much as we don't really care about having a men-only section. And we don't really care about it because the Internet default identity is male anyway, especially in these kinds of communities.
Wait, are you saying judging goon on past experiences is wrong? Obviously doom was a bit too sure of himself, but there is, I dont think, looking at goon with a skeptical eye and seeing if they were doing this disingenuous or not is a bad thing. It happened so late in the topic, as well, that I dont see much that was lost on the topic as a whole in terms of discussion. Goon has a history, and alot of their members are trolls(a lot of them arnt, sure, but you dont get a rep on nothing but preconceptions).
AnotherDustInTheWind
Banned
Agreed.
NeoGAF is probably the only game forum I've been a member of where I can freely admit that I am gay and transgender without (generally) receiving bile or ridicule in response. I can't imagine what is like for other marginalized groups who don't know there are better alternatives nowadays.
Arena Commander v1 is due to drop in the next couple weeks.. that's a fairly decent part of the game (for now), but expect a real full featured game in late 2015.
Wait
Wait
Thread was made by a SA Goon, which, seen the genre, i can bet is more of the EVE-goon type than the general SA goon?
99.99% it's a setup to create some havoc.
Argument was carefully chosen to be right but likely to spawn more havoc.
I like goons sometimes. *popcorn*
Wait
Thread was made by a SA Goon, which, seen the genre, i can bet is more of the EVE-goon type than the general SA goon?
99.99% it's a setup to create some havoc.
Argument was carefully chosen to be right but likely to spawn more havoc.
I like goons sometimes. *popcorn*
Huh? Have you read the topic? The majority of the discussion has been about the women should or shouldnt be able to create their own subgroup to protect themselves from sexism... This isnt simply a topic on sexism, so expecting the entire conversation to bend on JUST sexism, well... it also has peoples right to create a sub forum on a public message board, to protect themselves from harassment, and then also goon was involved, which has its own baggage. Derail would infer there is only one way to talk about the topic, and you have not done anything to prove that is the case. Cheap saying and drive by comments about how people dont want to talk about what needs to be talked about, is a rather pointless thing to do, imo.
There is no goon conspiracy unless again you have evidence which again you do not.
With the evidence put forward however by RSI, her reactionary blog-post of her beliefs on both the gaming community and the Star Citizen community, and the follow up on SA forum as well as her additional action, she managed to kill three birds with one stone,
- Her intention(s) being discredited let alone dismissed
- Her idea of a safe zone being depicted as a bait to provoke
- Her action(s) as stirring up shit
She got exposed and rightfully so for attempting to blacklist as sexist(s)
- The gaming community in general
- The Star Citizen Community
- The moderator(s)
That is exactly the real issue. You call it an issue based on what?
She is or holds extreme left wing views regarding the gender matter in gaming or she has had a bad experience(s). She is entitled to request that regardless.
I love this trick. This reactionary trick. When there is no evidence, solid, concrete evidence we have to turn to the Goon Conspiracy gap or You are a Sexist gap because there is nothing else to offer on the table apart from you are the enemy of society.
Since I am wrong and you, your friend(s) or not, and her is right why do you not proceed even further and sue the company and the parties involved of sexism or promoting sexism?
Let us see how the legal court handles it unless of course even the legal court is sexist or supports sexism.
I'm sorry, did this post just step over into Crazyville?
Why the hell would anyone waste time and money in court suing a company for something that didn't affect them personally? Why is this even an argument? Do you think people just sue everyone they disagree with?
It just looks like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and coming up with non-sequiturs.
Vire
Member
No this is not how it works. You are not guilty just because you are a member of something awful intrinsically.
How did you expect her to handle the situation this is ridiculous. Its days like these I get ashamed of the game community and the kinda intolerance that goes on not only over there but in this thread.
Vigilant Gambit
Member
It's not like the forum would be invisible to moderators, anyway. If she's "stirring up havoc" then the mods can step in. But there's no good reason to assume that, so just let it rock, and assume that the people who run the SC community have things under their control.
I mean, it's their community.
I'm honestly not even sure how to address a strange confirmation bias-filled post that includes accusations of "extreme left-wing" behavior that ends with challenging me to sue the company for something that didn't happen to me. I guess he thinks that all people that want better treatment for women just travel in packs or have secret meetings to take down the forum for the little space game or something.
But what's the point of a community when everyone locks each other out? The mods on the forum should enforce stricter moderation and not start to break it into exclusive sections. And when someone still feels unsafe in the community after that it would probably make the most sense to start your own community outside from that forum.
You should really read about Goons.
I'm not going to make a sweeping judgment on a whole message board population based on people's sour grapes and personal slights in space video game politics.
Just like men, not all women think or want the same thing. Yes, alot of women may want that, and a lot of women probably dont. I mean, women on the internet are no different them women in real life, they disagree and want different things from one another, just like guys. and that is why I think if you are going to have a game community forum, allowing sub forums to be created by the community is a good idea and should be promoted. A lot of this would have been avoided, imo, if they just allowed sub forums, similar to gamefaqs private boards or bioware socials groups.
You really think it is just based on personal slights and only in a space video game? You dont think goon has a reputation for a reason? I mean really?
Minsc
Gold Member
There's that, and there's coming off being intentionally naive, to me playing somewhat as an outsider right now, you're starting to reach in to the second category, even if you do have a point. I find it hard to follow anyone's argument seriously who is not willing to research or listen to the other side to it.
Vire
Member
I mean for real we just had a gafer compare a safe spot for females to Stormfront. Are you sure you really want to be making generalizations.
edit:quoted the wrong guy
I'm not talking about Something Awful board. I'm talking about Goons, an EVE Online corporation that has organisation in Star Citizen.
pants
Member
But the members of Something Awful are informally known as goons, right? And Goonswarm originated from Something Awful?
I'm aware of the popular Something Awful/Goon scam stories and so forth and I don't see how they're related to this particular incident. I get that a reputation of troublemaking can be earned but to me it's like accusing or railing on the entirety GAF for a perceived Sony bias when the truth is more complicated than that.
Vire
Member
This is wrong. If you are from something awful you are a Goon. Its what a something awful member is called. Mind you there are close to 200k members of something awful and some of them play eve. If someone calls themselves a goon they are not identifying with Eve they are calling themselves a something awful forum user. Just thought I would clear that up. Infact a very tiny fraction of goons play eve or care about goonswarm or have anything to do with it. It would be like a subreddit being lumped in with all of reddit users.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I saw epmode talking to SA Goons at the Star Citizen event at PAX. I bet he had something to do with this.
It's not about just wanting to be among themselves, but having that option in cases when the general population proves hostile.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure why people are saying the term is disconnected from Something Awful since their members have been referred to that way for a long time apparently (the same way you would call someone a "Gaffer" or "Redditor" etc.)
Minsc
Gold Member
Definitely, just seemed like something so many people were pointing out (including RSI) that if you were choosing to ignore it solely on principals, it may be working against you. Better to acknowledge you know the history and say you don't see it relevant for whatever reasons. I was probably jumping in a bit too quick, but I favor arguments where both parties are willing to listen to each other and not just talk over each other... that's all. I guess I was taking advantage of a moment to make that point more than I was really rebutting your post, sorry for that.
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