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[Dilbert]

Aside from downloading ROMs -- which is a no-no -- are there any LEGAL uses for the rumored exploit in the PSP firmware? All this talk of emulation is interesting...but without games, the emulator is useless. Since I doubt any of the companies are going to start selling ROM images anytime soon...yeah.

Seriously -- what's the big deal?

 

[blackadde]

Proper video codecs.
A better image viewer (rotate, dynamic scaling, no stupid ass load bug).
Browser.
Port of Netstumbler.

 

[BuddyC]

There's a huge potential for both homebrew applications and games. Given the PSP's portable nature, combined with its WiFi capabilities, there's potential that FireFox, Thunderbird or similiar programs could be brought to it. I think that's kinda exciting. An RSS reader would be kinda nice...

Oh man oh man, I now have one of the best pipe dreams ever. If ScummVM was ever ported to the PSP, I could have Sam & Max on the go.

Let's see, what else. Video codecs, yea. A media player with visualizations. Maybe even proper .cbr reader, but that's veering back to piracy.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Ebook Reader

IR Remote

PDA

P.S. there are lots of freeware and homebrew roms and legal ways to get roms

 

[ToastyFrog]

The potential legal uses vastly outnumber the illegal uses. Hopefully once the novelty of OMG FINAL FANTASY VI ON PSP wears off people will start developing more imaginative goods than yet another emulator.

 

[captmcblack]

A port of NetStumbler would make the PSP the most useful device ever, seriously. Fuck wardriving; you could warwalk.

 

[Zaptruder]

What's wardriving/warwalking?

 

[Juice]

What's wardriving/warwalking?

When you drive around a rich suburb in a van with a laptop scanning for wireless networks. I guess technically the idea is to find networks to hack, but so many are wide open with "admin" as the 192.168.1.1 password that you really just need those.

Then you can grab people's data and use their bank account numbers and soc #'s to get money to buy games.

It's a fun game you should try it.

 

[iapetus]

Emulation doesn't always have to be of things you don't own, you know. I've got a nice collection of ScummVM games that I'd love to be able to play on the go.

Beyond that, homebrew is definitely the place to be. Both games/demos and utility software would be great, especially once some reusable libraries start coming out for the thing.

 

[M3wThr33]

What's wardriving/warwalking?

Ignore Juice.
It's when you go around looking for open WiFi networks and marking the area so other people know where to get that "free" Internet access.

 

[Amir0x]

I want a kickass e-reader, and everything else that comes afterwards is just gravy.

 

[Juice]

Ignore Juice.
It's when you go around looking for open WiFi networks and marking the area so other people know where to get that "free" Internet access.

Just looked up on Wikipedia. It seems that though "War Driving" obviously takes it's name from "War Dialing" (which was, at least in most cases, a malicious way to get around an authentication server) it is more of an exploratory practice and doesn't necessarily invoke all the sorts of bad things I just assumed it did because of where it got its name.

Wiki Links:

War Dialing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_dialing
Wardriving: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_driving

 

[Jonnyram]

Emulation doesn't always have to be of things you don't own, you know.

Indeed. And let's face it, if someone comes out with a GBA emulator, I'd much rather carry around my PSP alone than my PSP and GBA. Also some software houses have provided old games for free use with emulators, so it's not as illegal a field as it is often considered - check out the UK Retro Gamer mag for a start.

 

[sangreal]

A port of NetStumbler would make the PSP the most useful device ever, seriously. Fuck wardriving; you could warwalk.

I guess if you don't count all those PDAs

 

[empanada]

Technically, anything that needs an exploit to run on a "secure" hardware (like the PSP) is illegal, or not authorized by manufacturer.

With that said, let the homebrew scene work their magic. I can't wait to see/use what they can come up with.

 

[blackadde]

Technically, anything that needs an exploit to run on a "secure" hardware (like the PSP) is illegal, or not authorized by manufacturer.

Only in the US.

 

[Hitokage]

A better question would be, "Is there any real legal use for the internet?"

 

[JackFrost2012]

As wacky fun as emulation is, my #1 wanted PSP homebrew app is a 1983-era TXT displaying tool. If they could get RTF and HTML working, so much the merrier, but the ability to display TXT with honest-to-God word-wrapping would be about the killerest app around.

 

[Danj]

As wacky fun as emulation is, my #1 wanted PSP homebrew app is a 1983-era TXT displaying tool. If they could get RTF and HTML working, so much the merrier, but the ability to display TXT with honest-to-God word-wrapping would be about the killerest app around.

There already are a couple of homebrew TXT readers out there, so if/as soon as a 1.50 exploit becomes available you should be good to go. However, it may well be possible to create an ebook reader without any exploits needed by using Adventure Player which comes out at the end of this month, and I plan to buy it and see if I can do that.

 

[8bit]

Just looked up on Wikipedia. It seems that though "War Driving" obviously takes it's name from "War Dialing" (which was, at least in most cases, a malicious way to get around an authentication server) it is more of an exploratory practice and doesn't necessarily invoke all the sorts of bad things I just assumed it did because of where it got its name.

Wiki Links:

War Dialing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_dialing
Wardriving: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_driving

I don't think the wiki definition for War Dialing is correct, it seems to describe a Demon Dialer.

 

[Gattsu25]

if the PSP really does open up for 1.50 users then I expect the homebrew scene to get much larger than it is now...A proper media player (more than MP4 support) and an MIDI player would kick ass...as would a port of firefox, and --damn you and your dreams, BuddyC

 

[DCX]

Ebook Reader

IR Remote

PDA

P.S. there are lots of freeware and homebrew roms and legal ways to get roms

PDA interesting i got blasted for thinking a PSP could have PDA functions...

DCX

 

[demi]

I hope I can mod it so it cooks my dinner for me.

 

[pcostabel]

Technically, anything that needs an exploit to run on a "secure" hardware (like the PSP) is illegal, or not authorized by manufacturer.

Only if you bypass a copy protection measure. The 1.0 exploit doesn't break any encription, they simply forgot to check for it, so it's perfectly legal.

 

[DCX]

I hope I can mod it so it cooks my dinner for me.

At the very least, holds recepies and a restuarant locator

DCX

 

[tedtropy]

I hope I can mod it so it cooks my dinner for me.

Once they find a way to overclock it, I'm sure you'll be able to do just that. Granted, it'll probably only be the one time, and the blue magic smoke it emits will make you sterile, but that Ritz cracker you just toasted in its UMD drive will so be worth it.

 

[Dilbert]

I would agree that it would be cool to be able to carry one portable with me instead of two. However, how exactly would you get a ROM from a GBA cartridge into your PC so that you could load it onto another system? If it requires special hardware (and I'm guessing it does), how much would it cost, and how difficult is the process?

Also, in a semi-related question, does anyone know the legal status of "format-shifting?" I suspect that the easiest way of getting ROMS for most people would go to #warez-n00bs or whatever (BTW -- it's a fictional channel AFAIK) and download pre-ripped copies of things they already own. On its face, that might seem to be legal: you have the original media, and you have a software copy for your own use. However, since you didn't create the copy yourself, is it actually legal to download that ROM?

I have the same question about other media, by the way. If I own a CD, but download MP3s versions of the songs on that CD from somewhere else, is it legal? If I own a DVD, and someone else has already gone through the trouble of ripping/converting it to PSP-playable form, is it legal for me to download it?

Emulation doesn't always have to be of things you don't own, you know. I've got a nice collection of ScummVM games that I'd love to be able to play on the go.

That's pretty cool -- never knew that existed.

Also some software houses have provided old games for free use with emulators, so it's not as illegal a field as it is often considered - check out the UK Retro Gamer mag for a start.

Since I don't live in the UK, could you provide some examples of companies which provide these kinds of downloads?

 

[Nerevar]

I have the same question about other media, by the way. If I own a CD, but download MP3s versions of the songs on that CD from somewhere else, is it legal? If I own a DVD, and someone else has already gone through the trouble of ripping/converting it to PSP-playable form, is it legal for me to download it?

IIRC, it's not illegal to download a copy of a piece of software that you own. However, sharing that copy, even to other people who own the software, is illegal. So if you hop on a torrent, even if that torrent only consists of people who own the software, you're committing an illegal act. And if you just download from IRC, the person you're downloading from is breaking the law. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and this is all stuff I only recall hazily through my IP studies class in school, so it might all be wrong.

And on the second part, as long as the software isn't held in an encrypted form, you can rip/convert it to whatever you want. The illegal part comes in breaking an encryption scheme.

 

[shuri]

We need a clear up on this from Togo, our resident piracy expert.

 

[Dilbert]

And on the second part, as long as the software isn't held in an encrypted form, you can rip/convert it to whatever you want. The illegal part comes in breaking an encryption scheme.

So ripping a DVD you OWN to some other form is not covered under fair use?

 

[Nerevar]

So ripping a DVD you OWN to some other form is not covered under fair use?

if the DVD is encrypted you can copy the DVD bit-by-bit to anything you want. However, you can't extract the video files and convert them to something else (MPEG-4, DivX, whatever).

So yes, ripping DVDs that you own, converting them, and putting them on a memory stick to watch in your PSP is illegal. Makes you love US copyright law, huh?

 

[AtomicShroom]

So ripping a DVD you OWN to some other form is not covered under fair use?

Exactly. All thanks to the Digital Millenium Copyright Act.

Only in the US...



Go Canada, where this and also filesharing are totally legal!

Seriously, Canada rocks. All hail Canada.

 

[sprsk]

considering the exploit itself is illegal i doubt any of the software that you put on it is legal in anyway.

 

[iapetus]

So yes, ripping DVDs that you own, converting them, and putting them on a memory stick to watch in your PSP is illegal.

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

 

[Odnetnin]

to be honest. All this DM rights talk is just that. They're not going to stop a person walking down the street with an ipod / pvp and check their players for illegal content and then bust them.

The real issue is online/retail distribution of pirated content

 

[Nerevar]

to be honest. All this DM rights talk is just that. They're not going to stop a person walking down the street with an ipod / pvp and check their players for illegal content and then bust them.

Right, they'll just go after the developers who make the software that makes this possible. These large corporations understand that it is within their own best interest to wrap up the content they have as tightly as possible and only let you use it under the strictest of terms. That way they can constantly re-sell you the same thing multiple times in different formats for a much greater profit. Why do you think so many movie studios jumped on the UMD bandwagon so quick?

 

[borghe]

all games are covered under the now infamous "no backups" clause in most EULAs. That is to say, MOST EULAs include a portion that says you are not entitled to a backup copy of the game or software. of course legally by default you ARE entitled to a backup copy, so specifically you are only NOT entitled to a backup copy where the EULA says so. And for the record, just because you buy a game without a manual does not mean the EULA doesn't apply to you.

That being said, a publisher would probably first need a LOT of reason to go after you if they were really going to accuse you of piracy based on having backup copies of owned games. I can't see it being worth a publishers time and effort to go through a court case where a guy simply backed up all of his GBA games (or even downloaded all of his existing games) to play on his PSP. Of course logic says that if he downloaded his purchased games, he probably downloaded other games as well that he didn't own.

DVDs are a little more interesting. In the US, it is a clear violation of DMCA to make a backup of a DVD. However, it is NOT a violation of copyright laws to do so, and in fact owning a ripped copy on your hard drive of a DVD you own is in no way shape or form illegal according to any copyright laws. It is only illegal according to DMCA and only under the security circumvention device aspect.

this is the main failure of DMCA. It is possible to violate DMCA without actually violating any copyright laws in the process, despite the fact that the sole purpose of DMCA was to extend copyright laws to the digital age. At least that is what was sold to the public.

 

[Nerevar]

all games are covered under the now infamous "no backups" clause in most EULAs. That is to say, MOST EULAs include a portion that says you are not entitled to a backup copy of the game or software. of course legally by default you ARE entitled to a backup copy, so specifically you are only NOT entitled to a backup copy where the EULA says so. And for the record, just because you buy a game without a manual does not mean the EULA doesn't apply to you.

An EULA is a contract and therefore cannot be extended to take away rights already guaranteed. Just because it says "you cannot back this up" in the contract doesn't mean that the portion of the EULA is valid. I'm willing to bet if this was brought up in court the company would lose. Pretty much in every case you are allowed to make an exact bit-for-bit digital copy of anything, but it (obviously) must preserve the encryption to stay within the good graces of the DMCA.

And there are DVDs out there that are not encrypted with CSS. Those are perfectly legal to rip / reencode however you want. It's only the encrypted ones that are illegal to do anything with.

 

[akascream]

Homebrew apps, running linux on PSP. At least, I think those are legal. Sony might have something to say about that though. <shrug>

 

[borghe]

An EULA is a contract and therefore cannot be extended to take away rights already guaranteed. Just because it says "you cannot back this up" in the contract doesn't mean that the portion of the EULA is valid. I'm willing to bet if this was brought up in court the company would lose. Pretty much in every case you are allowed to make an exact bit-for-bit digital copy of anything, but it (obviously) must preserve the encryption to stay within the good graces of the DMCA.

And there are DVDs out there that are not encrypted with CSS. Those are perfectly legal to rip / reencode however you want. It's only the encrypted ones that are illegal to do anything with.

all EULAs are essentially the same thing. You don't own the game, don't have rights to the copyright, you have nothing except for the right to play the game as is. If the EULA said you owned the game, then what you are saying is true. But you don't own the game. You essentially just paid for the right to play their game on their system. You have no real ownership. The EULA isn't taking any legal right away from you because you don't own the game to have the legal right to begin with.

and you are right. the few non-CSS DVDs out there are entirely legal to do anything with you want.

and in theory, nothing you can do on the PSP relating to homebrew is legal in the US. much like XBox, you would still be circumventing the encryption of the system thus violating DMCA in the US.

my belief is that eventually DMCA will be deprecated by a more sane law, or it will fall into meaningless oblivion, much like those oral sex laws in various states or the fact that in Wisconsin I am supposed to get a free slice of cheese with every dining out meal purchased.

 

[Dilbert]

The weak only exploit legal things!

What is THAT supposed to mean?

 

[The Faceless Master]

all EULAs are essentially the same thing. You don't own the game, don't have rights to the copyright, you have nothing except for the right to play the game as is. If the EULA said you owned the game, then what you are saying is true. But you don't own the game. You essentially just paid for the right to play their game on their system. You have no real ownership. The EULA isn't taking any legal right away from you because you don't own the game to have the legal right to begin with.

and you are right. the few non-CSS DVDs out there are entirely legal to do anything with you want.

and in theory, nothing you can do on the PSP relating to homebrew is legal in the US. much like XBox, you would still be circumventing the encryption of the system thus violating DMCA in the US.

my belief is that eventually DMCA will be deprecated by a more sane law, or it will fall into meaningless oblivion, much like those oral sex laws in various states or the fact that in Wisconsin I am supposed to get a free slice of cheese with every dining out meal purchased.

the EULA can say that, but since it's not a valid contract, nothing it says can be enforced.

some things in the EULA may be enforceable, but not because of the EULA, but because they are already the law and the EULA is just restating parts of that, but other parts are completely unenforceable.

as far as exploiting goes, for something to circumvent a copy protection device, it has to be proven to circumvent.. so if homebrew runs and bootleg don't, then the copyright protection device isn't circumvented, and doesn't break DMCA.

 

[pcostabel]

and in theory, nothing you can do on the PSP relating to homebrew is legal in the US. much like XBox, you would still be circumventing the encryption of the system thus violating DMCA in the US.

The 1.0 exploit does not circumvent any encryption, and therefore is perfectly legal, even in
DMCA land.

 

[BuddyC]

You are weak for not enjoying piracy! >: (

Uh.

 

[iapetus]

If the EULA said you owned the game, then what you are saying is true. But you don't own the game. You essentially just paid for the right to play their game on their system. You have no real ownership.

That's nice. If I'd agreed to the EULA prior to purchase then you might be partly right on that front.

 

[borghe]

unfortunately that's not how it works and crazy eulas has already been upheld in court. you are essentially agreeing to the EULA by opening the game. Yes it sounds wrong but it is the law. how you feel about it is pretty meaningless. crazier arguments have been made IN court about EULAs and the users were basically told "too fucking bad".

The 1.0 exploit does not circumvent any encryption, and therefore is perfectly legal, even in
DMCA land.

umm.. yes it does, through an exploit. the PSP is supposed to only run signed applications. The exploit executes the homebrew apps in a way that bypasses signature checking. that is enough to violate DMCA.

 

[The Faceless Master]

umm.. yes it does, through an exploit. the PSP is supposed to only run signed applications. The exploit executes the homebrew apps in a way that bypasses signature checking. that is enough to violate DMCA.

1.0 didn't have the signature checking enabled, so it wasn't bypassed

 

[borghe]

Sony intended the system to run that way (running signed apps only). The reality is that the system was bugged. So Sony updated the system to work correctly. This shows that running unsigned apps was not Sony's intent and they made a motion to correct it. I guarantee this is also further supported in the EULA of the PSP if I wasn't too lazy to check, which of course would be the final nail in this argument's coffin.

It's kind of like cheating in an MMO. You can do it. It is there and the developer left it that way, so it should be legit, right? Wrong, you are playing the game (or using the system) in a way that is not only undesirable by the creator, but is actually in violation of the agreement you made before playing.

 

[Nerevar]

unfortunately that's not how it works and crazy eulas has already been upheld in court. you are essentially agreeing to the EULA by opening the game. Yes it sounds wrong but it is the law. how you feel about it is pretty meaningless. crazier arguments have been made IN court about EULAs and the users were basically told "too fucking bad".

Yeah, hopefully European courts can hammer this down and it can spread across the Atlantic. I know in Germany they basically said these crazy EULAs aren't acceptable because there is no way for the user to be notified of them until they open and try to play the game, at which point they can no longer return them. It's a really nasty catch-22, and further evidence of the American political systems' absolutely pathetic kowtowing to corporate interests in recent years.

umm.. yes it does, through an exploit. the PSP is supposed to only run signed applications. The exploit executes the homebrew apps in a way that bypasses signature checking. that is enough to violate DMCA.

The v1.0 PSPs didn't do any signature checking. There is no exploit that is being taken advantage of. It's akin to how DVD players aren't required to see authenticated CSS signatures on a DVD to play them (they can play unencrypted ones). There is nothing illegal about that.

 

[Nerevar]

Sony intended the system to run that way (running signed apps only). The reality is that the system was bugged. So Sony updated the system to work correctly. This shows that running unsigned apps was not Sony's intent and they made a motion to correct it. I guarantee this is also further supported in the EULA of the PSP if I wasn't too lazy to check, which of course would be the final nail in this argument's coffin.

It's kind of like cheating in an MMO. You can do it. It is there and the developer left it that way, so it should be legit, right? Wrong, you are playing the game (or using the system) in a way that is not only undesirable by the creator, but is actually in violation of the agreement you made before playing.

that argument falls to pieces, you realize, because cheating isn't illegal. The company specifies in the EULA they can terminate your right to play the game because of cheating, so that is part of the contract (which is perfectly valid under contract law). However, they cannot put you in prison for it. Big difference there.

Edit: the analogy there would be that if Sony detected you had a 1.0 PSP they wouldn't let you play games until you updated to the latest firmware. That is within their rights to do, and is actually what they're currently doing.