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[Seanspeed]

Hey guys, Starbound dev here! I posted in the Starbound thread, but I'm around if you want to know anything.

Just to address the original point, the original estimate for release was 2013, but when it became clear this wasn't going to happen we opened up an early access beta to those who pre-ordered, with the full release included in that price. Understandably we offered refunds at the time to those that weren't happy with this, but it's not something we'll do seven months later.

It sounds like he didn't back out then because he was under the impression things would be moving along. I bet if you told him the game wouldn't be coming out til 2015 at the time of announcing Early Access, he'd have backed out sooner.

He's understandably frustrated.

 

[Ikuu]

Pre-order gets turned into Early Access and then he wants a refund? Why not ask for a refund before redeeming your key and playing for 20+ hours.

 

[Supernorn]

Starbound got its last real update like... half a year ago. And cutting the whole story content and say its 1.0 is just pure bullshit.

1.0 is a complete game with all the promised features and not a game that is functional and missing like 3/4 of the content that was promised.

If you opt into the nightlies, you get an updated build every day. We're working towards releasing a huge content patch that will include all these changes, and that's evident from our constant communication with the community, daily news posts and updated builds.

The argument is essentially, we'd rather have a 1.0 we were proud of releasing over rushing something out as 1.0 just to appease people that want a 'final product'. And I think most people would feel the same way about that.

There's a lot of stuff in the game that has been changed via feedback, based on things that people weren't happy with. And we'd like to add a lot more content, including the stuff that was promised. That doesn't somehow detract from the current 'stable' release being a playable game that people have put hundreds of hours into.

 

[YianGaruga]

I don't understand, as a dev, why you wouldn't just give the guy $15 back as a sign of goodwill because he's understandably unhappy with what he bought, but instead allow this to turn into a lot of negative publicity.

 

[Seanspeed]

If you opt into the nightlies, you get an updated build every day. We're working towards releasing a huge content patch that will include all these changes, and that's evident from our constant communication with the community, daily news posts and updated builds.

The argument is essentially, we'd rather have a 1.0 we were proud of releasing over rushing something out as 1.0 just to appease people that want a 'final product'. And I think most people would feel the same way about that.

There's a lot of stuff in the game that has been changed via feedback, based on things that people weren't happy with. And we'd like to add a lot more content, including the stuff that was promised. That doesn't somehow detract from the current 'stable' release being a playable game that people have put hundreds of hours into.

Many people want to play a finalized product, not a 'playable' WIP.

If you guys aren't completely happy with the current state of the game, why should customers be satisfied with it?

 

[FunkyMunkey]

The problem I have with this is from what I can tell, he redeemed the Steam code. To me, that's accepting the Early Access version of the game. In my eyes it stopped being a preorder when it became a tangible product redeemed to his account like any other Early Access game is.

The code was for beta access, as it was described when it was delivered. The steam store page for the game was never even visited. I've had other keys and games played via steam that have disappeared after an alpha, beta, or promotion is over, no problem.

Pre-order gets turned into Early Access and then he wants a refund? Why not ask for a refund before redeeming your key and playing for 20+ hours.

Anyone here play the Destiny beta for 20+ hours? What if Bungie denied a refund for the full game because you met some invisible limit on playing the unfinished version of the game?

If you opt into the nightlies, you get an updated build every day. We're working towards releasing a huge content patch that will include all these changes, and that's evident from our constant communication with the community, daily news posts and updated builds.

The argument is essentially, we'd rather have a 1.0 we were proud of releasing over rushing something out as 1.0 just to appease people that want a 'final product'. And I think most people would feel the same way about that.

There's a lot of stuff in the game that has been changed via feedback, based on things that people weren't happy with. And we'd like to add a lot more content, including the stuff that was promised. That doesn't somehow detract from the current 'stable' release being a playable game that people have put hundreds of hours into.

You and whoever else on Reddit keep citing hundreds of hours, even though the launcher was (not anymore?) broken and will rack up hundreds of hours idle or in the background.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/211820/discussions/0/45350245490157817/

I'm sure there are those who played for many hours, but still. Anyways, "version 1.0" is not an arbitrary concept. With software development, the 1.0 version of a program is (for the most part) complete and meets the original goals. The reason it's not 1.0 and still in beta is because you have not met those goals.

Edit: I sound like I'm on the offensive and I don't mean to. I appreciate you (and everyone else) sticking your head in here to have a dialogue, definitely.

 

[dark_inferno]

If you opt into the nightlies, you get an updated build every day. We're working towards releasing a huge content patch that will include all these changes, and that's evident from our constant communication with the community, daily news posts and updated builds.

The argument is essentially, we'd rather have a 1.0 we were proud of releasing over rushing something out as 1.0 just to appease people that want a 'final product'. And I think most people would feel the same way about that.

There's a lot of stuff in the game that has been changed via feedback, based on things that people weren't happy with. And we'd like to add a lot more content, including the stuff that was promised. That doesn't somehow detract from the current 'stable' release being a playable game that people have put hundreds of hours into.

But there are people out there who dont want to have seen everything the game has to offer before it even gets to 1.0. So most people dont play the nightlies (me included).

And some people dont wanna play the alpha/beta patch of a alpha/beta game.

Dont get me wrong. I like the promise of Starbound and i wait for the full version. But you guys have to understand that there are some people who arent happy with the current situation. Maybe because they arent patient or maybe because they dont like the game after playing like 20 hours of it.

And because the Releasedate is another year away you should deal with that guy quickly. Every bad PR (That guy spreads bad PR about you with Development hell etc) is bad PR and could hurt you alot more than 15$ missing. You need to show those guys that you arent the typical evil EA guys.

 

[Morokh]

Many people want to play a finalized product, not a 'playable' WIP.

Then those people should not buy it in a Beta state, and wait for the actual 'feature complete' release.

Game isn't there yet so don't buy, don't complain, easy as pie.

 

[SkeptiMism]

While 1.0.0 is kind of arbitrary in many ways at least nowadays, there's still a vast difference between that and a beta product. If you're calling it beta, that's a shield against any criticism. If you call it 1.0.0, that's a "final" product that can and will be criticized.

I don't understand, as a dev, why you wouldn't just give the guy $15 back as a sign of goodwill because he's understandably unhappy with what he bought, but instead allow this to turn into a lot of negative publicity.

Yeah this is pretty baffling. I mean like, sure you shouldn't give refunds for anyone who is just angry for no reason in the fear that it'll snowball into negative publicity, but this guy has very justified reasons to be very unsatisfied no matter if he's legally entitled for refund. Any dev who wants to be customer friendly should just refund at that point.

 

[Seanspeed]

Then those people should not buy it in a Beta state, and wait for the actual 'feature complete' release.

Game isn't there yet so don't buy, don't complain, easy as pie.

The person didn't buy it in a Beta state. He pre-ordered it! This was before it went to Early Access.

While 1.0.0 is kind of arbitrary in many ways at least nowadays, there's still a vast difference between that and a beta product. If you're calling it beta, that's a shield against any criticism. If you call it 1.0.0, that's a "final" product that can and will be criticized.


Yeah this is pretty baffling. I mean like, sure you shouldn't give refunds for anyone who is just angry for no reason in the fear that it'll snowball into negative publicity, but this guy has very justified reasons to be very unsatisfied no matter if he's legally entitled for refund. Any dev who wants to be customer friendly should just refund at that point.

I'm usually not nearly as pro-consumer as a lot of people on here. I stick up for developers/publishers(or am at least capable of understanding their point of view) in quite a lot of cases where everyone is getting outraged over something. I think consumers generally need to take a bit more responsibility for their own purchasing habits.

But this is one case where the person has a legit complaint. I don't think this would precipitate a huge flood of refunds, either. The people in his position are likely in a minority.

 

[Morokh]

The person didn't buy it in a Beta state. He pre-ordered it! This was before it went to Early Access.

The pre-order he refers to came in the form of a crowdfunding campain with an option to have access to the Beta until 'final' release depending on the amount of money you gave.

Early access came at the same time than this Beta version came out to provide a different mean to get in the Beta state of the game.

Going by the date the Beta version came out it was pretty clear the final version wouldn't make it in 2013 and Chucklefish has been very open on what they were working and the state in which things are.
Delays happen, even with AAA retail products.

He got something to play for the time being which was part of the deal and won't be charged for future updates that lead to the final product, he hasn't been robbed in any way, and Chucklefish didn't vanish and leave people with absolutely no news of the state of things.

He's perfectly entitled to complain as Chucklefish did not maintain their deadline for the 'final' version, but he is in no way entitled to a refund because his patience ran out, as he already had to enjoy part of the product, as promised.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

The pre-order he refers to came in the form of a crowdfunding campain with an option to have access to the Beta until 'final' release depending on the amount of money you gave.

Early access came at the same time than this Beta version came out to provide a different mean to get in the Beta state of the game.

Going by the date the Beta version came out it was pretty clear the final version wouldn't make it in 2013 and Chucklefish has been very open on what they were working and the state in which things are.
Delays happen, even with AAA retail products.

He got something to play for the time being which was part of the deal and won't be charged for future updates that lead to the final product, he hasn't been robbed in any way, and Chucklefish didn't vanish and leave people with absolutely no news of the state of things.

He's perfectly entitled to complain as Chucklefish did not maintain their deadline for the 'final' version, but he is in no way entitled to a refund because his patience ran out, as he already had to enjoy part of the product, as promised.

Did you read the top quote in the OP from the reddit user? It refutes much of what you just said. Through their website, it wasn't early access in April 2013, it was a preorder with beta access. A preorder. And chucklefish repeatedly promised a 2013 release.

And I'm just making sure I follow you here... You'd be okay with Bungie not allowing refunds for anyone who accessed the Destiny beta through preorders, right? Since as you said, people had something to play in the mean time. Not to use that example again, but honestly.

Edit: I just noticed the starbound avatar , right then.

 

[MrAndySchneider]

But... the guy is right.

He pre-ordered the final game. Incidentally, the pre-order came with Beta access.

He didn't buy the Beta.

The final game takes too long to come out, so he cancels his pre-order and wants his money back. I see this as legitimate.

Sure, he definitely got his moneys worth with the Beta, and quite frankly, requesting some money back smells shady, but in the end, it doesn't matter.

Chucklefish messed up by selling pre-orders while it was clear that, like Minecraft, the final game will eventually grow out of the long Beta. But it's not the customers fault.

 

[Kinyou]

I think the context that's missing here is that unlike many early access games, the game is already fully playable, and although it doesn't have everything we want to put in it yet (which is what's holding it back from a 1.0 release) I feel we could have released what we currently have AS 1.0, outside of early access, we just wouldn't have been happy with it.

I find that a little odd. Why not just release it as full? It's not unusual for games to receive major upgrades after their release. They could deliver on the release date they promised and then keep improving the game

 

[DrROBschiz]

Pre-order gets turned into Early Access and then he wants a refund? Why not ask for a refund before redeeming your key and playing for 20+ hours.

LMAO

Seriously I am with this guy

They literally have had a fully playable and fun product (though incomplete) out in the wild. So what if they have a few dev hiccups.

They have plenty of funds, a proven track record, and its a relatively low fidelity game.

Also.... Its literally 15 bucks.... You need a refund for 15 bucks? There are far better examples of people getting screwed out of far more and getting way less for it.

Last I checked the Early release of Starbound is damn fun

 

[yGray]

I personally don't see how these devs owe him anything. You should never pre order something so far away, especially with no incentive.


I think this is just a case of the dude being short on cash and looking for excuses. Do pre orders exist in any other medium? Even with other technology, the pre orders are only rolled out close to the actual release date.


So while i disagree with pre orders becoming something that a lot of people are doing, I don't think they owe him anything.


When it comes down to it, he canceled his pre order long after they introduced early access to the game. I remember when I went to buy Ready 2 Rumble for the N64 and not liking. As a kid I tried returning it with that excuse.

"I don't like this game, please return it." Obviously they didn't accept that excuse and it's not the same exact situation here but I bet it's not far off.

 

[HaRyu]

I find that a little odd. Why not just release it as full? It's not unusual for games to receive major upgrades after their release. They could deliver on the release date they promised and then keep improving the game

Would backfire, probably.

And at most, they've only promised vague release "years", no hard dates for release. They did revise the "2014" release date to "2015" in the last month or two. They did lose a month or two of dev time during the move (everyone was orginally all over the world, and so, decided that they would all just live in the same area, for the sake of the game).

Honestly, if the reddit guy asked for a refund late last year, when they revised the date from "2013" to "2014", I wouldn't be bothered by it so much. But its been over a year. If you were upset the game was taking too long and wanted your money back, would you really wait that long?

The Devs did say that the beta would be divided into three phases, and as far as I know, we're still in phase 1, but they recently just talked about the Novakids on their blog, so that means that hopefully, phase 2 is soon. ("Yay, actual progress!", the huddled masses shout out)

BTW, why is it still Cuddlefish?

 

[PedroLumpy]

I don't know about the legality of it, but the general perception is that pre-orders (not early access) can be cancelled before release. By Chucklefish own admission, the game isn't out yet. Seems pretty clear, the guy should be able to get a refund.

 

[erragal]

If the customer was only satisfied by a full release it seems counterproductive to redeem his Steam code.

Really all these incidents do is incentivize the developer to release their unfinished games as 1.0 versions to avoid this. He could push an update tonight with 1.0 version number and wash his hands of the entire thing.

Or are entitled kids now arguing that every feature planned/promised has to end up released? That's not how games work nor will they ever. There will be unplanned features that make it in and promised ideas that end up abandoned.

So logically this 'conplaint' stems solely from the version number. Nothing else has any validity because his pre-order came with zero guarentees of any feature sets as every other pre order.

Hell pre-orders have never even come with a set time of release. I suppose gone are the days where people sat on their DNF receipts for a decade.

Irrational entitlement culture at its' finest.

 

[Seanspeed]

The pre-order he refers to came in the form of a crowdfunding campain with an option to have access to the Beta until 'final' release depending on the amount of money you gave.

Early access came at the same time than this Beta version came out to provide a different mean to get in the Beta state of the game.

Going by the date the Beta version came out it was pretty clear the final version wouldn't make it in 2013 and Chucklefish has been very open on what they were working and the state in which things are.
Delays happen, even with AAA retail products.

He got something to play for the time being which was part of the deal and won't be charged for future updates that lead to the final product, he hasn't been robbed in any way, and Chucklefish didn't vanish and leave people with absolutely no news of the state of things.

He's perfectly entitled to complain as Chucklefish did not maintain their deadline for the 'final' version, but he is in no way entitled to a refund because his patience ran out, as he already had to enjoy part of the product, as promised.

Nobody is saying he's been robbed. He's just not happy that he'll have waited 2 years to get the game he pre-ordered when it was originally promised in 2013. Yes, he'll have known it got delayed and had an early opportunity to abort, but its unlikely he'll have realized just how long the wait would be. I don't think anybody thought it was going to take as long as it has.

If its a 'tier' thing then they should refund him whatever the tier cost that didn't come with the beta at the very least.

I don't think Scuttlefish are being shady or scummy or anything. But they should realize that with how much they've changed their timeline and methods of buying, it will have understandably frustrated some buyers who were in before Early Access was ever even announced. They should do right by these people if they feel aggrieved. These customers are just being yanked along by a chain at this point.

 

[erragal]

I don't know about the legality of it, but the general perception is that pre-orders (not early access) can be cancelled before release. By Chucklefish own admission, the game isn't out yet. Seems pretty clear, the guy should be able to get a refund.

When he redeemed the steam key he acknowledged payment for an early access game.

If he wanted beta access alone he should have stated as such to the developer and requested a non steam based beta option.

The problem with his argument is that redeeming the steam key indicates acceptance of the product as is. As usualy 'ignorance is no excuse'. All of the policies relating to early access and steam key redemption are publicly available on steam. No one is able to help you if you don't at first help yourself.

 

[Seanspeed]

When he redeemed the steam key he acknowledged payment for an early access game.

If he wanted beta access alone he should have stated as such to the developer and requested a non steam based beta option.

He probably considered Early Access his 'beta access', which is basically the way the devs have structured this. And he probably didn't think it meant another year or more of waiting.

This is one time where I cannot blame the consumer in the least. I can completely see where he's coming from and why he's upset. The way the Starbound devs have gone about this is unusual and patience-testing.

 

[TunaMarshmallow]

Hey guys, Starbound dev here! I posted in the Starbound thread, but I'm around if you want to know anything.

Just to address the original point, the original estimate for release was 2013, but when it became clear this wasn't going to happen we opened up an early access beta to those who pre-ordered, with the full release included in that price. Understandably we offered refunds at the time to those that weren't happy with this, but it's not something we'll do seven months later.

As I said on the first page: I pre-ordered (not Early Access purchased) the game around the time that pre-orders became available. I have zero interest in playing alphas, or betas, or pre-release versions, or anything else like that. I want to play full versions of games. That's what I'm interested in, that's what I pay for, and that's what I play. I have never downloaded or played a moment of any pre-release version of Starbound.

So to someone in my position who pre-ordered well over a year ago, who has never played any version of the game, and who will now (apparently) receive the game over one full year behind schedule, your answer is: "No refunds." Can you confirm that?

(For the record, I'm not requesting a refund. At this point, I don't care, and I'll just play it when it comes out. But I'm asking the question, just so that I understand the company's position.)

 

[HaRyu]

I don't think Scuttlefish are being shady or scummy or anything.

Chucklefish.

 

[Seanspeed]

Chucklefish.

Haha, shit. Yea, my bad. Brainfart.

 

[Amneisac]

Starbound and Cube World are the two games that confirmed for me why I should never pre-order or 'early access' any games. Cube World is about a thousand times worse than Starbound, but having bought Starbound in 2013 and still not really played it yet (the first night we tried to play was after they promised no more wipes, and the next day there was a wipe) - and Cube World basically falling off the face of the earth, I'm over the whole premise.

I understand the developer doesn't want to open the flood gates of returns to early access players, but to me if someone had proof they bought it back in April '13 and they aren't happy with the release schedule they should be able to get their money back.

I've just learned never to do this again, and maybe it was good that I learned it with a $15 and $20 game, not a $60 one.

 

[ZoddGutts]

His on the right side here. Hope he gets he's money back.

 

[erragal]

Nobody is saying he's been robbed. He's just not happy that he'll have waited 2 years to get the game he pre-ordered when it was originally promised in 2013. Yes, he'll have known it got delayed and had an early opportunity to abort, but its unlikely he'll have realized just how long the wait would be. I don't think anybody thought it was going to take as long as it has.

If its a 'tier' thing then they should refund him whatever the tier cost that didn't come with the beta at the very least.

Your first argument is false. It was obvious from their team size and work progress the rate at which this game would be released within the first three months.

Deluding oneself in order to justify a previously held position in which the actual empirical data does not support it is highly illogical. They never made any grand announcements of pending release and hace never 'significantly sped up' their development pace.

Then again the entirety of the development of the game every week or two new updates would be posted on this board. Without fail 3-10 people would chime in with "is this ever gna be released" and "this game is taking forever".

For some reason this game has and had am inordinate amount of pressure on it to be done instantly. There's some public perception (real or fabricated by competition) that this should be a quick game to complete.

Started development in Feb 2012, released a functional playable sandbox 22 months later. Presumably between february and june of 2015 it will be released what the designer terms 'feature complete'. In what reality is this an unreasonable amount of time for a new indie studio to complete a detail oriented sandbox game?

This isn't a message spread by the developer. It's an impatience from the community that somehow turned into the overarching narrative about the game.

This type of messaging is why devs are really punished for sharing their development with the public. The public has no sensr of time or man hours or setbacks... it has only a hunger to consume what's been set before them immediately and move on.

Just look at how fucking weird the Eternity community got because some screenshots were seen by the media at E3 but not them. I backed that game and have not a damn about that ...but the venom was palpable.

I liked kickstarter as an idea to help creative teams but the way it motivates the community surrounsing the games is frightening. The whole point is to give these devs creative freedom so their gamed aren't products of a restrictive structured environment...so what humans do is find ways to put tons of micro pressures on these studios to suit their selfish impulses.

It's sad and going to be the premature end to the crowd funded model as it results in the same externalized headaches without any of the benefits.

 

[HaRyu]

Haha, shit. Yea, my bad. Brainfart.

Might as well just start calling out different fish names now. It was bad enough that originally, everyone kept saying this game was from "the same guys who made Terraria", so it's a change of pace, at least.

 

[Amneisac]

Your first argument is false. It was obvious from their team size and work progress the rate at which this game would be released within the first three months.

Deluding oneself in order to justify a previously held position in which the actual empirical data does not support it is highly illogical. They never made any grand announcements of pending release and hace never 'significantly sped up' their development pace.

Then again the entirety of the development of the game every week or two new updates would be posted on this board. Without fail 3-10 people would chime in with "is this ever gna be released" and "this game is taking forever".

For some reason this game has and had am inordinate amount of pressure on it to be done instantly. There's some public perception (real or fabricated by competition) that this should be a quick game to complete.

Started development in Feb 2012, released a functional playable sandbox 22 months later. Presumably between february and june of 2015 it will be released what the designer terms 'feature complete'. In what reality is this an unreasonable amount of time for a new indie studio to complete a detail oriented sandbox game?

This isn't a message spread by the developer. It's an impatience from the community that somehow turned into the overarching narrative about the game.

This type of messaging is why devs are really punished for sharing their development with the public. The public has no sensr of time or man hours or setbacks... it has only a hunger to consume what's been set before them immediately and move on.

Just look at how fucking weird the Eternity community got because some screenshots were seen by the media at E3 but not them. I backed that game and have not a damn about that ...but the venom was palpable.

I liked kickstarter as an idea to help creative teams but the way it motivates the community surrounsing the games is frightening. The whole point is to give these devs creative freedom so their gamed aren't products of a restrictive structured environment...so what humans do is find ways to put tons of micro pressures on these studios to suit their selfish impulses.

It's sad and going to be the premature end to the crowd funded model as it results in the same externalized headaches without any of the benefits.

If it was clear to you that the game wouldn't be out on time within 3 months of pre-order, why wasn't it clear to the developers? Maybe if they spent less time posting about their cats and actually worked on the game it'd be done by now.

 

[Morokh]

I find that a little odd. Why not just release it as full? It's not unusual for games to receive major upgrades after their release. They could deliver on the release date they promised and then keep improving the game

They don't want to call it 'finished' before everything promised in the 'pre order' campain is in.

And looking back, calling a finished version what they released as a Beta would have certainly caused more problems than right now as some did not even think it was worth of the title Beta.

Did you read the top quote in the OP from the reddit user? It refutes much of what you just said. Through their website, it wasn't early access in April 2013, it was a preorder with beta access. A preorder. And chucklefish repeatedly promised a 2013 release.

And I'm just making sure I follow you here... You'd be okay with Bungie not allowing refunds for anyone who accessed the Destiny beta through preorders, right? Since as you said, people had something to play in the mean time. Not to use that example again, but honestly.

Edit: I just noticed the starbound avatar , right then.

He still benefited from part of the product as advertised even with the delay, and there was no 'get a refund' if you're not happy deal to begin with, I get why he's upset, yet i'm not sure it would automatically grant a refund.

Now for early access, it came later in the deal as an alternate option to opt-in during the Beta, and it became the main way of accessing the game after they consulted with the players :
Poll can be found here
Blog post here
An the FAQ was modified to suit these changes when they announced the official 'release' of the Beta.

it was a change to what they originally had planned, but there was no lack of communication about it before they committed to it, the right time to bail out would have been there, not half a year later.

There was nothing shoddy about it (nor about the supposedly shoddy things he speaks about in his post) but yes, when a game uses early acces it abides by Valve rules for early access, and one of them is no refunds !

Chucklefish is certainly to blame for not fulfilling their original release date time (which frankly was obvious at the time the Beta launched), but the no refunds policy is to pin on Valve.

Now I don't know the drama about Destiny, but I assume you got a beta Key, and then your actual key at release, sadly Steam Early Access doesn't work that way.

 

[Agkel]

As I said on the first page: I pre-ordered (not Early Access purchased) the game around the time that pre-orders became available. I have zero interest in playing alphas, or betas, or pre-release versions, or anything else like that. I want to play full versions of games. That's what I'm interested in, that's what I pay for, and that's what I play. I have never downloaded or played a moment of any pre-release version of Starbound.

So to someone in my position who pre-ordered well over a year ago, who has never played any version of the game, and who will now (apparently) receive the game over one full year behind schedule, your answer is: "No refunds." Can you confirm that?

(For the record, I'm not requesting a refund. At this point, I don't care, and I'll just play it when it comes out. But I'm asking the question, just so that I understand the company's position.)

You had your chance, if you decided to wait it falls on you and you are not entitled to a refund.

-The game was scheduled to release last year, people moaned and groaned that Chuckle missed some set dates and that they would once again miss the 2013 date for the beta.
-Up until this point -late 2013- Only preorders were available.
-Chucklefish decides to go with the early access model and push the beta out before the end of 2013
-They announced that the beta process would be very long and would proceed in stages, anyone that read their press release would realize that it would become a minecraft situation were the game would be iterated upon and that 1.0 was faaaar far away.
-During that time Chuckle offered people that did not like the new direction, refunds and Im pretty sure there were a few given. We even had a gaffer here, in the OT, that got a refund some time after launch even after playing 60plus hours.
-Guy hard on cash then comes and complains half a year later that he wants a refund. He had his chance to back out back in Nov-Dec 2013 and the situation of the game was pretty clear at that time which he should have used the opportunity to back out.
edit: for some reason my last point was erased before posting.
-At the time of release on Dec 2013, the game was very polished, I would dare more than 95% of early access and betas released nowadays. It took people like me experienced in Terraria and Minecraft about 15 hours to rush to what was end game at the time, tier wise, and there was still plenty of random stuff to see on other planets.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

I don't know the laws regarding a situation like this, but it seems uncertain considering he redeemed the Early Access code and has played it for a significant amount of hours, I don't know if that counts as the contract fulfilled. It should be understandable why he doesn't consider it fulfilled though, and when it's a matter of $15, I don't think it should be this difficult getting a refund just out of good will.

Butterfish could've just done that instead of shutting him down on official channels and it leading to this negative PR.

 

[HaRyu]

If it was clear to you that the game wouldn't be out on time within 3 months of pre-order, why wasn't it clear to the developers? Maybe if they spent less time posting about their cats and actually worked on the game it'd be done by now.

Harsh.

Please don't give everyone the impression for those who don't actually go to the blog, that all the devs do is post about their cats.

 

[erragal]

He probably considered Early Access his 'beta access', which is basically the way the devs have structured this. And he probably didn't think it meant another year or more of waiting.

This is one time where I cannot blame the consumer in the least. I can completely see where he's coming from and why he's upset. The way the Starbound devs have gone about this is unusual and patience-testing.

"He considered" is code for "he didn't thonk before he acted". Early access and steam code redemption is a codified business transaction. If he was unaware of that then maybe he shouldn't have been so impulsive.

It isn't really unusual at all. It's what almost every game is doing since the onset of early access because it's a huge uptick in funding for the game. It only tests your patience if you have strict expectations for a game development...which decries a very flawrd understanding of how software development in general and game design especially works.

If you want a strictly creative endeavour then leave your expectations at the door. Otherwise you're just going to get a flawed, rushed 'product'.

If anything the early access allowed them to hold off calling a barebones release version 1.0. In a past permutation of the market environment that Dec early access would have just been called full release. Now there's the ability to be honest about your game state while still interacting with a large marketplace to help you finish the game.

Patience is patience. This game isn't even at three years from dev start time and its a ridiculously ambitious project from a detail standpoint.

 

[Amneisac]

They don't want to call it 'finished' before everything promised in the 'pre order' campain is in.

And looking back, calling a finished version what they released as a Beta would have certainly caused more problems than right now as some did not even think it was worth of the title Beta.



He still benefited from part of the product as advertised even with the delay, and there was no 'get a refund' if you're not happy deal to begin with, I get why he's upset, yet i'm not sure it would automatically grant a refund.

Now for early access, it came later in the deal as an alternate option to opt-in during the Beta, and it became the main way of accessing the game after they consulted with the players :
Poll can be found here
Blog post here
An the FAQ was modified to suit these changes when they announced the official 'release' of the Beta.

it was a change to what they originally had planned, but there was no lack of communication about it before they committed to it, the right time to bail out would have been there, not half a year later.

There was nothing shoddy about it (nor about the supposedly shoddy things he speaks about in his post) but yes, when a game uses early acces it abides by Valve rules for early access, and one of them is no refunds !

Chucklefish is certainly to blame for not fulfilling their original release date time (which frankly was obvious at the time the Beta launched), but the no refunds policy is to pin on Valve.

Now I don't know the drama about Destiny, but I assume you got a beta Key, and then your actual key at release, sadly Steam Early Access doesn't work that way.

When you say there was no lack of communication, I have to take slight issue with that. Sure, if you were lurking in the forums you might have known what was up, but what about the casual gamer who wanted to pre-order the game to speed along development because they were excited for it? I'm not going to spend my time lurking on a forum for a game that's in development, especially if I'm not even playing it. I don't have that kind of time, so how am I supposed to know they offered refunds or took votes on this stuff?

And for the 1,000,000th time, if you pre-ordered through Chucklefish and the Humble Store, you didn't buy the game early access on Steam, whether or not they gave you a key, so it isn't really relevant to bring up Steam's early access model.

Patience is patience. This game isn't even at three years from dev start time and its a ridiculously ambitious project from a detail standpoint.

This is the whole point. They shouldn't have said it would be out in 2013, but that's what they promised. This person bought the game with that expectation, now it's going to be 2015 before it's fully released and he's not satisfied with an early access build since that's not what he was promised. Are you saying every consumer should know the intricacies of a development cycle of a video game? If someone tells me something will be out in less than 8 months if I pay them now, and their monetary goals are SHATTERED by supportive fans, I'd expect that game when it was promised, not over a year later.

These people beg and beg for an early release, then after the devs release it, they bitch and moan. I was hoping for a faster release, but I've gotten a good 45 hours of enjoyment out of this game. As long as they don't cut and run, I'll be happy.

I think it's a safe bet since he hasn't played the early access build that the OP was not one of these people crying for an early release. I think you've built a strawman here.

 

[cheststrongwell]

These people beg and beg for an early release, then after the devs release it, they bitch and moan. I was hoping for a faster release, but I've gotten a good 45 hours of enjoyment out of this game. As long as they don't cut and run, I'll be happy.

 

[erragal]

If it was clear to you that the game wouldn't be out on time within 3 months of pre-order, why wasn't it clear to the developers? Maybe if they spent less time posting about their cats and actually worked on the game it'd be done by now.

It was clear. They made no release promises to me. Any feelings/expectations/time tables are fabrications and false hopes. The game from day one had the impression of a slow burner. It's a detail oriented labor of love on a massive scope. Every month that passes is anothee month of art assets being created which maximize the entropy of the game while allowing more of the programning work to be sorted out.

Not every team has a savant coder like Dwarf Forteess who can accurately model real world concepts in record time. Even with that look at the sacrifices that game makes in other areas amd the time that has been spent on its' simulation environment. Immersive world simulators are inherently long term projects. Starbound already works on a functional, technical level with stellar netcode.

To imply they've made insignificant progress because they aren't working like slaves is the entitlement mindset in bold. Games are not made by robots; they are the creative effort of human ingenuity and inspiration.

 

[Polioliolio]

I was super psyched about Starbound back in the day. They had a release schedule and it looked like the game would be ready soon.

Two years later, it's still early access. Not interested. At this point I don't think it will ever be finished beyond spruced up beta.

 

[Amneisac]

It was clear. They made no release promises to me. Any feelings/expectations/time tables are fabrications and false hopes. The game from day one had the impression of a slow burner. It's a detail oriented labor of love on a massive scope. Every month that passes is anothee month of art assets being created which maximize the entropy of the game while allowing more of the programning work to be sorted out.

Not every team has a savant coder like Dwarf Forteess who can accurately model real world concepts in record time. Even with that look at the sacrifices that game makes in other areas amd the time that has been spent on its' simulation environment. Immersive world simulators are inherently long term projects. Starbound already works on a functional, technical level with stellar netcode.

To imply they've made insignificant progress because they aren't working like slaves is the entitlement mindset in bold. Games are not made by robots; they are the creative effort of human ingenuity and inspiration.

They explicitly promised when they started accepting pre-orders that it would be out in 2013. I don't understand what you're saying. They can take 15 years to release their game for all I care, but don't promise it in 18 months.

 

[Seanspeed]

"He considered" is code for "he didn't thonk before he acted". Early access and steam code redemption is a codified business transaction. If he was unaware of that then maybe he shouldn't have been so impulsive.

Fucking please.

It isn't really unusual at all.

Early Access isn't.

Going from taking pre-orders and promising a 2013 delivery to changing things to Early Access and then delaying the game til 2015 is.

Your first argument is false. It was obvious from their team size and work progress the rate at which this game would be released within the first three months.

In what world is it false? The developers said it would come out in 2013. There is proof of it.

And just because you found it 'obvious' doesn't mean others would as well. I certainly didn't think it was 'obvious' that we'd have to wait til 2015 for the full release. But I guess I'm just some idiot, huh?

 

[Jhriad]

He got something to play for the time being which was part of the deal and won't be charged for future updates that lead to the final product, he hasn't been robbed in any way, and Chucklefish didn't vanish and leave people with absolutely no news of the state of things.

Regardless of whether or not he got something the game he preordered hasn't been released. I preordered Destiny and got a Beta code because of it but if I decide to cancel my preorder before release, for whatever reason, I should get my money back. Bungie doesn't get to refuse refunds because I played in the beta.

 

[kiaaa]

I'd sympathize with this guy a little more if he hadn't actually spent time playing the early access/beta version.

Either way, pre-ordering is absolutely pointless in 90% of cases and bitching about it just means you aren't the kind of person that should be pre-ordering products in the first place.

 

[Flintty]

I think the Destiny comparison is apt here, where if you preordered Destiny and didn't like the beta, would it be acceptable for Bungie to refuse to allow you to cancel your preorder? Many Starbound preorders were made in April 2013, where the purchase agreement was for a preorder with beta access, not early access via steam. The game has still not released.

Exactly what I was going to say. Whilst the scale of the Starbound beta is so much larger than Destiny the concept is the same. If you pre order something and change your mind, regardless of how much 'demo' time you have had, that refund/cancellation should be honored without question.

Conversely, if someone has put 500 hours into the Beta and no longer feels they will get enjoyment out of the full game because of that time invested, well that sucks for the Dev but perhaps the Beta was put out there too early...

 

[Bloodrage]

December the 3th? Da fuck?

 

[Seanspeed]

I'd sympathize with this guy a little more if he hadn't actually spent time playing the early access/beta version.

Either way, pre-ordering is absolutely pointless in 90% of cases and bitching about it just means you aren't the kind of person that should be pre-ordering products in the first place.

Lets say somebody pre-ordered Destiny a few weeks ago. They then play the beta, enjoy it, and then wait for the game, which is slated to release later this year.

Except that Bungie then do a roundabout and turn the beta into a paid Early Access game and then don't release the full game til 2016.

That's the situation we're talking about here.

 

[Agkel]

They explicitly promised when they started accepting pre-orders that it would be out in 2013. I don't understand what you're saying. They can take 15 years to release their game for all I care, but don't promise it in 18 months.

Fucking please.


Early Access isn't.

Going from taking pre-orders and promising a 2013 delivery to changing things to Early Access and then delaying the game til 2015 is.


In what world is it false? The developers said it would come out in 2013. There is proof of it.

And just because you found it 'obvious' doesn't mean others would as well. I certainly didn't think it was 'obvious' that we'd have to wait til 2015 for the full release. But I guess I'm just some idiot, huh?

Regardless of whether or not he got something the game he preordered hasn't been released. I preordered Destiny and got a Beta code because of it but if I decide to cancel my preorder before release, for whatever reason, I should get my money back.

Read my post above before you continue posting. It should clear a lot of your ignorance, not using it in a derogatory way.

The problem here is that he had a chance to ask for a refund and that Chuckle was giving them out, proven by a few gaffers in the OT we had, yet he decided to accept the new early access model, proceed to play the game for a number of hours then suddenly have a change of heart and asks for his money back half a year later.

 

[HaRyu]

This is the whole point. They shouldn't have said it would be out in 2013, but that's what they promised. This person bought the game with that expectation, now it's going to be 2015 before it's fully released and he's not satisfied with an early access build since that's not what he was promised. Are you saying every consumer should know the intricacies of a development cycle of a video game? If someone tells me something will be out in less than 8 months if I pay them now, and their monetary goals are SHATTERED by supportive fans, I'd expect that game when it was promised, not over a year later.

And FiletOFish gave refunds to those who weren't happy that the game came out in 2013, but that was months ago. Its been over a year, half a year since the beta came out.

The argument of you cant be bothered to look at forums or visit the website to follow any sort of updates? If you, as the consumer, bought the game back in April 2013, with the expectation that the game would be out in 2013, as promised by the devs, why would you wait until the middle of 2014 to ask for a refund? You don't need to visit any forum or site to see if the game isnt out by a certain date, do you? You just check the distribubtion method (in case Steam) and see if the game was released.

By January, maybe the latest February, if you really wanted your money back, you would have wised up by then. But to wait this long?

 

[VibratingDonkey]

You had your chance, if you decided to wait it falls on you and you are not entitled to a refund.

If the code has not been redeemed, it is a case of a regular ass pre-order where the transaction has not been concluded. I don't see how you wouldn't be entitled to a refund.

 

[Seanspeed]

Read my post above before you continue posting. It should clear a lot of your ignorance, not using it in a derogatory way.

The problem here is that he had a chance to ask for a refund and that Chuckle was giving them out, proven by a few gaffers in the OT we had, yet he decided to accept the new early access model, proceed to play the game for a number of hours then suddenly have a change of heart and asks for his money back.

I've addressed this line of reasoning a couple times already. I'm not ignorant of the situation at all.