I remember around a year ago on the Chucklefish forums. People were frequently told, by CF staff that they could get a refund, before release, if they were not happy. At this point, there was never any talk about Early Access, just Pre-order = Beta access + Full game (ETA 2013). Once the thing became early access, this was not re-clarified (until, apparently, now). I don't want a refund, but I can understand why some might. I have not even loaded up the game, as I was not around my computer when the early access was released. I did activate my key and have full intentions on playing it one day, when completed. With the way the Early Access is going, it will not see light until 2015. By then, my pre-order discount ($11.50) will have been beaten by several Steam sales, if not already. At this, I can see why people hate Early Access
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Starbound developer Chucklefish refusing refunds for preorders? (non early access)
- Thread starter FunkyMunkey
- Start date
And I would agree with you, except the poster I replied to said he did indeed redeemed the code.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
I guess I was adding this guy to all the people complaining on the steam forums. I thought every backer got into early access.Not trying to build a strawman.
Possibly you are. Anyone that holds a game of this scale to a tenative release date has a flawed thought process somewhere in there.
It didn't 'change' to early access. If you did not redeem your steam code you still have a perfectly normal pre-order. Redemption of a steam code which gives you 'early access' is the issue here. You're trying to give the consumer an out for his own ignorance. He must have pre-ordered on their webpage if it's trult a pre-order (unless kids are calling Kickstarters preorders now too). He could easily have used that portal to ask about a non binding beta participation/refunds.
It's about people jumping into things with no research at all then asking -8 months later- for a refund. As has been mentioned: if this were december 20th the situation is completely different.
This isn't a problem with Early Access in general.
This is on the developer for promising something they couldn't deliver initially and then switching everything up in an unusual way and then making people wait forever on top of all that.
Of course some people were going to grow frustrated with the situation. They might have been ok with it back in Dec 2013 when the Early Access started, but I doubt they realized just what they were still in for in terms of a wait period. That was never told to anybody and anybody who didn't have the 'instinct' to cancel their pre-order when they could are now locked onto this chain and just have 'deal with it'.
Maintenance
Member
Luckily for me I didn't fall for this trap, even though I like Early Access. I almost bought this game when it launched, because I liked the premise, but now I'd be furious with all this delay, considering that they had a date in mind in the first place. If they didn't it would be a little better, but still bad.
What research could somebody have done back in 2013 to tell them that this game wouldn't be coming out til 2015? Should they have read a few books on game development or something?
Not many people are going to be able to look at a game(that they've never played!) and tell exactly how long the game would still be in development for.
Give me a break. Calling people idiots who couldn't predict a 2015 release back in 2013 is being condescending without cause.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
Nothing in here constitutes an argument for denying a refund to someone in my position. Nothing.
Woody Invincible
Banned
I knew the anti-consumer crowd would show up, but wow, some of these posts are just making me facepalm.
Don't buy stuff that isn't done? Chalk it up to a lesson learned?
VibratingDonkey
Member
He actually didn't say whether he's redeemed the code or not. I assumed he hadn't based on other things he said.
soxinthebox
Member
It's insane the amount of people blaming the reddit guy when it seems fairly cut and dry. Who cares if he redeemed a code - is it impossible to revoke a license?
I preordered through Chucklefish and the Humble Store on Chucklefish's website where the campain took place, which coincidentally has been THE place to get updates about the games and everything around it including Beta release and supposed release windows.
Had I ignored it completely, when they announced the Beta release date a few days in advance in early access form, every news outlet that reported it also made mention of early access .....
I understand your point that originally there was no talk of early access but there also was time to react if you didn't like that when they shifted towards it.
Now that they fall under Steam early access they most certainly have to go by its rules, even if you didn't pay Valve in the first place.
It doesn't sweeten the missed release window and the fact that we still don't have a new release window in sight, but it can explain why they are unable to provide the guy with a refund in a more rational way than 'boohoo evil Chucklefish'
Jhriad said:
Good for you, but early access doesn't work that way as your Beta Key transforms into the full release Key, and should you be unhappy with the early access game, or even should the game be canceled before full release, Valve doesn't do refunds.
It can lead to stupid situations but it's like that.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I'm sorry. I did? What? Didn't I say exactly the opposite?
Going by UK law, as long as you don't actually download anything, you're entitled to a refund.
If on the other hand, something was downloaded, you waive your rights, and your ability to get a refund.
HOWEVER, and this is important, I have no idea if the UK considers "betas/early access" as the actual product. So the rule may not apply, but there's no rules about "betas/early access" either. As far as I can tell, everything is lumped together for Digital Downloads (games, ebooks, music, etc).
EDIT: Apparently, there's a 14-day cooling off period from the time you purchase a digital download. If within 14 days, you decide you want your money back, you're entitled to it. This 14-day period is the bare minimum the UK requires companies to have, some companies have longer periods though (depends on whats in the Terms & Conditions). However, you also waive your right to any refund if you decide to actually download anything within that 14-day period.
What entitles you to a refund though? The fact that the game hasn't been released to your highly specific standards yet?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, just legitimately interested in why you think you deserve a refund on this product. I've read your posts so far in this thread and I'm still not seeing why.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
It's silly for this discussion to focus on whether or not the developer has a formal legal obligation to provide a refund. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. My guess is that it depends on where the pre-order was made.
But who cares? The more interesting question is what industry best-practices are (and should be) for cases like this.
In a question:
If a developer takes pre-orders on a product to be distributed by T, and if at T+6months it has failed to distribute the product, and if at T+6months there looks to be many more months before distribution, and if at T+6months a would-be buyer who has never used any version of the product asks to have her/his money refunded... how would industry best practices have the developer respond?
This is hardly even an interesting question. The answer is obvious: refund the fucking money.
But who cares? The more interesting question is what industry best-practices are (and should be) for cases like this.
In a question:
If a developer takes pre-orders on a product to be distributed by T, and if at T+6months it has failed to distribute the product, and if at T+6months there looks to be many more months before distribution, and if at T+6months a would-be buyer who has never used any version of the product asks to have her/his money refunded... how would industry best practices have the developer respond?
This is hardly even an interesting question. The answer is obvious: refund the fucking money.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
See the post I just made.
They have delivered a product however. They rolled the 'Pre-Orders' into 'Early Access Beta' which is a product. They allowed refunds at that time and some people didn't take advantage of the refunds. Your lack of action at that time means that you bought 'Early Access' and not a 'Pre-Order'.
Pay more attention next time I guess? I mean, I remember them making it very obvious that if you wanted a refund at the time of Early Access rollover you could get one. Again, not trying to be confrontational, but sometimes you lose money on a product you don't like and there's nothing to be done because you failed to act in a timely manner.
You called yourself one. I gave you a data point that may support your self supposition.
Is Starbound the first game people have played? Have they never encountered games with tenative release dates before?
It's an expectation of common knowledge. You may not know it's going to roll into 2015 but to try and hold a product estimate as a 'promise' is absurd. That was not a promise nor a guarentee. It wasn't worded or framed in any such fashion. 2013 was their best guess at the time.
What a reasonable human does is independent of game development knowledge is to examine the source of the promise. Find out if they have a history of making estinated product release dates. If not then you seek outside information as to the product type and whether it has a history of delayed releases (evidence says yes...games tend to get delayed at -all- budget levels. Watch Dogs was 'promised' for 2013 too...).
As for this 'anti-consumer' labeling flying around: an atrocious premise. Do people actually believe that being a purchaser of a product entitles you to protection from your own mistakes?
This is the mindset of the lazy. Of those too unmotivated to do research and self educate. The naive and those lacking common sense. Why do these individuals deserve special treatment? If information exists and is available but you ignore it by choice...you aren't a protected class. Making foolish purchasing decisions isn't an ADA protected class; it's called being impulsive and not doing proper research/critical analysis. "Protect me from my impulse purchasing!"
What's worse is this is over a 15$ purchase. Two lunches? Do you go back to ask for a refund for your lunch if it doesn't taste good enough afterwards then complain the restaurant is being 'anti-consumer'? Nope. But the anonymity of the internet gives people irrational, entitled bravado to ask for refunds on the most absurd basis.
"Couldn't deliver?" That's a big logical leap. It's completely understandable that release dates shift, for all the right reasons, when you're getting so much community feedback.
I assume that at the time, the planned features would have been doable within their timeframe. But as they open it up to the community, they will inevitably get a ton of user feedback and feature requests. They probably added a ton of stuff that wasn't planned when they announced that date, but was stuff the community requested. There were probably bugs and problems the community discovered that they had to spend time fixing. Sure, all these things push back the release date of a 'finished' version, but these things also make it a better game.
Should they have instead ignored all the community feedback and stuck with their original featurelist in order to release on time? I think that would be dumb -- the game would be worse and the only thing that'd help is to avoid bullshit like this where people get hung up over words instead of thinking about the actual game.
YianGaruga
Banned
Exactly. This is not a discussion about law or how anyone deserves anything.
It's about doing the only right thing in this situation, which is giviving the guy his money back. Add a few lines about how you're sad that he isn't satisfied, sorry for the slow progress but you're hoping that he'll check back every now and then and maybe will decide to come back to the game at a later point.
bam, everybody is happy, good PR. Not so fucking hard.
If I go to their site, it still says pre-order and it still differentiates the full game from the beta access.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
Are you a corporate shill? I don't understand. Why would industry best practices put the onus on consumers like this?
If someone actively decides to opt-in to a new agreement (e.g., by signing or 'clicking' an agreement, or by actively accepting and redeeming a key to an Early Access product, or whatever), then you'd have a point. I'm still not sure that pushing this kind of agreement on pre-orderers as the default would be part of any set of best practices, but it's at least conceivable. But you're claiming something far stronger (and much less plausible). You're saying that industry best practices would hold that any would-be buyer who doesn't respond within a number of weeks to a proposed agreement change is tacitly endorsing and accepting the change. On what planet is that anywhere close to an accepted best practice within an industry?
Actually, as someone who works with these kinds of claims for my company, it's not that easy. Precedents set by allowing random refunds can be VERY dangerous in the future in a court of law. Better to set a specific deadline for refunds and based on what criteria and then follow that strictly.
Good PR can be built by making a good game.
If you've contacted the customers with every available means then there is nothing else to be done. As a business you cannot just allow every Tom, Dick, and Harry to ignore a specific window of refund.
The flaw in your premise is the pre-order doesn't promise a binding release date. It has never done so in the history of this product segment. It's a fabrication of the consumer that said date was a condition of the pre-order.
Industry best practices have always been to release a better product over a flawed product to meet unsubstantiated nebulous timeframes. In fact the advent of Kickstarter/crowdfunded pre-ordera/early access is a direct response to irrational timeframes on a creative endeavour.
Creativity is not on a time table. You don't treat it like a mathematical equation. Expecting things to be produced mechanically in a complicated creative field shows little awareness...and if you have such little knowledge then why are you pre ordering? Who risks money on an unsure thing with no foreknowledge?
Impulsive, irrational individuals. Who then expect their impulsivity to be catered too instead of owning up to their limited knowledge.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I dunno... asking for a refund after playing the game for god knows how many hours seems like sour grapes.
You spent, what 15 bucks? For a game you knew was going to be a ongoing development game?
Just move on.
You spent, what 15 bucks? For a game you knew was going to be a ongoing development game?
Just move on.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
What are you even talking about? In what domain -- or where in the history of *this* domain -- can a pre-orderer not cancel her or his pre-order before the final product is released?
He did respond though... by downloading the early access instead of requesting a refund.
Bu- but principles! That 15 dollars represents every consumer!
To be fair, TruthJunky is talking about his specific case in which he hasn't downloaded or played anything.
BibiMaghoo
Member
For once, I actually agree with the company, not the customer.
If, an early, non-complete build of the game being played by the customer for dozens of hours, qualifies as "not receiving the final game", when that game was supported and purchased in the knowledge it was not complete, then early access should be put to death now, because otherwise that gives any customer years to play a game at their leisure, only to return it whenever they feel like it. That is a massive abuse of the system, and is unfair on the developer. refunds on any product should be limited to a time period, and saying "it's not the final build so I had no game" is really, really disingenuous.
S/He should absolutely not be eligible for a refund years down the line.
If, an early, non-complete build of the game being played by the customer for dozens of hours, qualifies as "not receiving the final game", when that game was supported and purchased in the knowledge it was not complete, then early access should be put to death now, because otherwise that gives any customer years to play a game at their leisure, only to return it whenever they feel like it. That is a massive abuse of the system, and is unfair on the developer. refunds on any product should be limited to a time period, and saying "it's not the final build so I had no game" is really, really disingenuous.
S/He should absolutely not be eligible for a refund years down the line.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
I'm talking about my own case. Check my above posts, if you're interested. (Or don't.)
This isn't a simple preorder where you put money down and receive nothing. Stop trying to think about this in outdated terms.
edit: if you haven't redeemed your key, I'd agree you should be given a refund.
I do understand your frustration and have had to deal with many frustrated customers who were much in the same position as you at my company but unfortunately there's not much you can do at this point besides play the game at release and try to be more communicative with people you give money too in the future.
Well don't call it a pre-order then. It's that simple.
VibratingDonkey
Member
This is crazy. Just why you would think along these lines.
Why would he need to justify wanting his money back from a pre-order he is yet to receive, to prove that he deserves his money back? The other party has failed to deliver their end of the contract, that's how he's entitled to a refund.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
Alright. I am officially overwhelmed by the cacophony of anti-common-sense blather. It is hard for me to accept that the pro-Cuddlefish people here are speaking in good faith. But I'll just agree to disagree. Take care, everyone. I tried!
I don't see the problem here. You pre-order the final product for when it is complete and get instant access to a Beta version.
The promise was the same from the beginning, there has just been a mess-up around the 2013 release that was an estimated release date (one of the redditor pictures proves that) that they claimed once or twice would happen for sure in a few forum posts.
Should you preorder now there is even no cause for discussion as the FAQ states the next estimated launch window for the final product for 2015.
scytheavatar
Member
No they haven't, the product is supposed to be the final built of Starbound. The early access is something they gave for free with the preorder and is a completely unacceptable replacement for a complete game. With the game being struck in development hell and no release date at sight I fail to see why refunds shouldn't be given if demanded.
When the other party failed to deliver they opened a window to allow consumers to contact them for refunds. If you did not contact them within that window then you are not entitled to a refund based on tacit approval of their giving you a product (Beta Code) for your pre-order money.
They did their best and some people ignored it. No reason that they should then, a year later, provide a refund to someone who finally decides they don't want a Beta Code and would like their money back.
VibratingDonkey
Member
You're crazy!
One party giving another party money does not give the other party the right to just sit on the money for all eternity without fulfilling their end of the deal. That would be insane.
If you would please tell me what your company is so I can avoid it for all eternity?
BibiMaghoo
Member
Agreed. If a game is in your hands and has been released, it cannot be by definition, a pre-order.
In this case, a game was purchased including a "pre-order" for the final build. This person is asking for a refund of not what was paid for, but something included in what was paid for, which is obviously not acceptable.
It's akin to buying a season pass for a game, playing the first DLC, then asking for a refund for the pass. You don't get you have your cake and eat it.
They are not working on other games, just publishing them, it has been clarified many times that it has zero impact on the development of Starbound.
Let's look at the contract of sale for the original guy's purchase.
He paid money for a preorder of a game which came with free beta access, he did not pay for early access which many did at a later date. This is important.
As he had not taken delivery of the item he paid for (this is the game remember, not the beta access which was a free gift as a result of preordering the game) he is entitled to a refund.
He didn't pay for beta. He paid for a game. Whether de downloaded the beta or not has no bearing on his eligibility for a refund on the actual product he ordered.
Edit
Re 14 day right to refund.
As this is applicable to the final release of the game (which is what he preordered, not the beta) as he hasn't downloaded it yet he would sill entitled to a refund under this act.
The window to get a refund from a pre-order is as long as the full product as detailed by the pre-order has not been released, is not some arbitrary concept of time as the developer wishes to be.
He preordered, he got his beta access as promised by the preorder, full game is delayed until 2015, guy wants a refund, which he should be entitled to. It really is that simple.. all the other word and semantics and weird non sensical theories people are saying about hrs played in a beta that he got with his preorder as stated, do not matter..
I preorder something.. I can ask for a refund until the full product is out as it was detailed on my preorder terms.. his terms have not been completed, he is entitled to a refund. This is not some hard mathematical concept here. Some of the answers in this thread are mindblowing..
You're crazy!
One party giving another party money does not give the other party the right to just sit on the money for all eternity without fulfilling their end of the deal. That would be insane.
If you would please tell me what your company is so I can avoid it for all eternity?
I won't be sharing that information but I will say that my company provides a full warranty (longer than industry standard, btw) and allows for refunds based on the product not working for specific situations. But, if a customer who ordered one of our products called me 2 years after ordering it and said that they didn't use it and would like to return it for their money back I would not be able to provide them with a refund.
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