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Super Mario Bros. Wonder | Review Thread

calistan

Member
This is the never ending road to making games easier and easier. Flowers constantly spoiling what you should do. Power-ups that make things easier. Removing the timer. No collision in multi-player etc...

Thankfully there are more challenging platformers out there.
For me this lacks the feeling of accomplishment I got from completing levels in Super Mario World. It doesn't have to be massively difficult, just cleverly designed, but I think Nintendo has lost the will to walk that tightrope - they make too much money from selling vacuous nostalgia for people like me and cute animations for children.

Things like finessing the SMW controls just perfectly so you fly all the way through a level and find some secret hidden up in the sky. Or that level where you swoop underneath the goalposts. There's very little in Wonder that compares, it's all just collect the special flower which you can't possibly miss and play a minigame.

Turning into an elephant and smashing your way through everything reminds me of Rambi in Donkey Kong Country, except at least that was only an occasional powerup. And you've already got the option to pick Yoshi or that rabbit thing and stroll through the entire game with invincibility.
 
I have really enjoyed it so far but I understand the complaints that the wonder seed ideas aren't built upon.The confidence in bringing out these incredible ideas only to discard them almost immediately is impressive, but it seems wasteful, too. It gives a certain lack of cohesion. And the world map still isn't as good as Super Mario World's. But I had more fun with this than with NSMB so far. The controls are so snappy.
 
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Skeptical

Neo Member
Yes I know, I'm a couple months late, but I wanted to add my thoughts for posterity. To be honest, I don't think it's that much better than NSMBU, at least not in the parts I care about. But that's ok, because I really liked NSMBU! Yes, the presentation is much improved, but that never bothered me. And yes, there is a lot more creativity in Wonder, but to be honest that's part of the problem.

Wonder has so many different new ideas, new enemies, new approaches, but there is never time for any of them to breathe. You see a new concept of an enemy and the entire level is about that new concept and hey, that's neat. But the entire level is about it and then you never see it again. OK, fine, you probably will be seeing them again once or twice, but that's it.

To me, 2D Mario is about a level filled with several small, easy challenges that work best when all of those easy challenges are seamlessly blended together when played while on the run. Unfortunately, creating a bunch of new enemies and concepts means you need to slow down and learn them. And since you need to slow down and learn them, you don't get into a good Mario-esque rhythm the first time you see them. Yeah, we had to do that when with koopas and goombas when we were 5 years old, but that's the point about the "one and done" issue of the game. Having nothing but goombas and koopas meant that you can create all sorts of permutations of them with platforms that you can see and react to while running through it on the first time seeing them. Which gave a great rhythm and flow through the game.

I know, that sounds extremely unfair. Durr, new stuff is bad, just give us lots of old stuff over and over again! Yes, I fully understand that nothing but new creative ideas is something that most people would prefer and is a perfectly valid design choice. And don't get me wrong, I do like that new stuff was here. But while people can complain that NSMBU was just the same thing we've seen a dozen times over, I loved how they brought all the familiar items together in new, enjoyable levels. So while I admit that creativity was needed, I do have to lament it a bit, or more accurately lament that there seemed to be nothing BUT creativity and not a full examination of what they have.

And while people may dismiss my lament, I think they could have done more here without hurting the creativity. The "Break Time" levels were simplistic, short ideas that usually repeated a theme or concept (albeit in a completely safe manner). Perhaps they should have also included a "Challenge Time" level near the end of each world. This would be a traditional level (no Wonder seed) that would take a few ideas from the world and remix them. Put them in a dense environment with an emphasis on danger and avoidance rather than puzzles and slower interaction. Mix them up with traditional enemies and with each other. It doesn't have to be impossible, just 4-star difficulty. And it can be completely optional; don't change the number of wonder seeds required. But it would make the new ideas/enemies more memorable because we could actually see what they could do in a threatening environment. Besides, everyone agrees this game is too easy; tossing 7 new challenging levels in can't hurt.

So that's one complaint, albeit one that is based on a perfectly legitimate design choice. My second one though has less of an excuse. Back when it was first announced, I knew the one thing I was hoping for was for the game to surprise me with a multitude of weird secrets. Mario 3 was magical in that respect. Hammer Bros suddenly turning into treasure ships. Secret white toadstool houses appearing out of nowhere. Alternate routes filled with coins. Ultra rare powerups like the hammer bros outfit. I wanted a return to that. I wanted the levels THEMSELVES to be mysterious.

And that simply didn't happen. I kind of understand, it's sort of the nature of modern gaming. Secrets have to have content in them and be for progression; we can't just have weird stuff for weird stuff's sake these days. Coins aren't important, lives aren't important, so a secret that leads to a bunch of coins is just no fun. So we NEED to put a 10 star coin there to make the secret worth it. Except then, it's not really a surprise, is it? If you reach the midpoint flag with only one coin, you know you missed a pipe or a hidden branch somewhere. And since people want to 100% the game, you can't make them too obscure. You want to see the whole game, so warp whistles aren't a prize. And programming new powerups and character models for it with 7 different characters is just too much for a super rare powerup. Not cost effective. So we just can't have any surprises...

And no, wonder flowers don't count. For starters, you know there is one in every level, so it's not a surprise. You just don't know what will happen. And while different stuff did happen, very few were really surprising other than just remixing gameplay. And yes, there were a few secret exits. Which is ok, but not really what I was looking for. And the Secret World was nice. Short, challenging, gimmicky levels, very reminiscent of star road. I liked it! But there was one for each world, so finding them was more of a checkbox than a surprise. So much like how hidden paths have to contain a 10-star coin, it ruins the surprise and just makes it part of the goal of 100%ing the game. Oh, and the end of the Secret World doesn't hold a candle to the mindblowing experience of seeing what happened after completing Star Road the first time. But in fairness, I don't think anything can.

So two complaints, one of which is understandable. I liked the game overall, deserves 4 stars. But unfortunately, I just don't see it as the mindblowing, groundbreaking experience that some have claimed. Mario 3 still reigns supreme, and I am seriously doubting if it will ever be dethroned.
 

Regginator

Member
Yes I know, I'm a couple months late, but I wanted to add my thoughts for posterity. To be honest, I don't think it's that much better than NSMBU, at least not in the parts I care about. But that's ok, because I really liked NSMBU! Yes, the presentation is much improved, but that never bothered me. And yes, there is a lot more creativity in Wonder, but to be honest that's part of the problem.

Wonder has so many different new ideas, new enemies, new approaches, but there is never time for any of them to breathe. You see a new concept of an enemy and the entire level is about that new concept and hey, that's neat. But the entire level is about it and then you never see it again. OK, fine, you probably will be seeing them again once or twice, but that's it.

To me, 2D Mario is about a level filled with several small, easy challenges that work best when all of those easy challenges are seamlessly blended together when played while on the run. Unfortunately, creating a bunch of new enemies and concepts means you need to slow down and learn them. And since you need to slow down and learn them, you don't get into a good Mario-esque rhythm the first time you see them. Yeah, we had to do that when with koopas and goombas when we were 5 years old, but that's the point about the "one and done" issue of the game. Having nothing but goombas and koopas meant that you can create all sorts of permutations of them with platforms that you can see and react to while running through it on the first time seeing them. Which gave a great rhythm and flow through the game.

I know, that sounds extremely unfair. Durr, new stuff is bad, just give us lots of old stuff over and over again! Yes, I fully understand that nothing but new creative ideas is something that most people would prefer and is a perfectly valid design choice. And don't get me wrong, I do like that new stuff was here. But while people can complain that NSMBU was just the same thing we've seen a dozen times over, I loved how they brought all the familiar items together in new, enjoyable levels. So while I admit that creativity was needed, I do have to lament it a bit, or more accurately lament that there seemed to be nothing BUT creativity and not a full examination of what they have.

And while people may dismiss my lament, I think they could have done more here without hurting the creativity. The "Break Time" levels were simplistic, short ideas that usually repeated a theme or concept (albeit in a completely safe manner). Perhaps they should have also included a "Challenge Time" level near the end of each world. This would be a traditional level (no Wonder seed) that would take a few ideas from the world and remix them. Put them in a dense environment with an emphasis on danger and avoidance rather than puzzles and slower interaction. Mix them up with traditional enemies and with each other. It doesn't have to be impossible, just 4-star difficulty. And it can be completely optional; don't change the number of wonder seeds required. But it would make the new ideas/enemies more memorable because we could actually see what they could do in a threatening environment. Besides, everyone agrees this game is too easy; tossing 7 new challenging levels in can't hurt.

So that's one complaint, albeit one that is based on a perfectly legitimate design choice. My second one though has less of an excuse. Back when it was first announced, I knew the one thing I was hoping for was for the game to surprise me with a multitude of weird secrets. Mario 3 was magical in that respect. Hammer Bros suddenly turning into treasure ships. Secret white toadstool houses appearing out of nowhere. Alternate routes filled with coins. Ultra rare powerups like the hammer bros outfit. I wanted a return to that. I wanted the levels THEMSELVES to be mysterious.

And that simply didn't happen. I kind of understand, it's sort of the nature of modern gaming. Secrets have to have content in them and be for progression; we can't just have weird stuff for weird stuff's sake these days. Coins aren't important, lives aren't important, so a secret that leads to a bunch of coins is just no fun. So we NEED to put a 10 star coin there to make the secret worth it. Except then, it's not really a surprise, is it? If you reach the midpoint flag with only one coin, you know you missed a pipe or a hidden branch somewhere. And since people want to 100% the game, you can't make them too obscure. You want to see the whole game, so warp whistles aren't a prize. And programming new powerups and character models for it with 7 different characters is just too much for a super rare powerup. Not cost effective. So we just can't have any surprises...

And no, wonder flowers don't count. For starters, you know there is one in every level, so it's not a surprise. You just don't know what will happen. And while different stuff did happen, very few were really surprising other than just remixing gameplay. And yes, there were a few secret exits. Which is ok, but not really what I was looking for. And the Secret World was nice. Short, challenging, gimmicky levels, very reminiscent of star road. I liked it! But there was one for each world, so finding them was more of a checkbox than a surprise. So much like how hidden paths have to contain a 10-star coin, it ruins the surprise and just makes it part of the goal of 100%ing the game. Oh, and the end of the Secret World doesn't hold a candle to the mindblowing experience of seeing what happened after completing Star Road the first time. But in fairness, I don't think anything can.

So two complaints, one of which is understandable. I liked the game overall, deserves 4 stars. But unfortunately, I just don't see it as the mindblowing, groundbreaking experience that some have claimed. Mario 3 still reigns supreme, and I am seriously doubting if it will ever be dethroned.

I don't think anyone considers Wonder to be a groundbreaking, earth shattering, industry defining experience like Mario 3 was, but many (including me) found the New-series to become extremely stale by the time New U arrived. Nintendo milked that series for all it was worth, and then some. To make matters worse, many (again including myself) found the art-style to be rather... dull, and uninspiring. For example, compare Mario U with Rayman Origins and Legends, and it's night and day. Gameplay mechanics aside, Rayman was much more expressive, the characters were much more diverse and wacky, the world was much more colourful and interesting, and overall it was funnier and wittier.

I think that's why Wonder was so well received. It got the much-needed visual pezzaz while simultaneously retaining - and improving upon - its tight controls, and adding many things that - while not always fleshing them out, I agree - still gave a sense of wonder (no pun intended) and inspiration that most of the New-series simply didn't convey. At least not for me, but I think neither for many other fans. Also, I liked how the Action Badges offered a way to tweak the gameplay to your liking. I just wish they'd done more with them, because as they've implemented it now, you basically only use one or two badges throughout the game, aside from a handful of moments that you really need a specific badge.

As coincidence would have it, we literally beat Bowser yesterday, and we had a great time. We haven't completed everything 100% yet, but we're going to do that in the coming days. At the moment I have two complains:
  1. No player collision, e.g not being able to interact with the players any more. On the surface this is a good thing, because now you can't get in each others way physically, but that was kind of the charm sometimes, wasn't it? Picking someone up unexpectedly and then throwing them off into the abyss. Aside from that, sometimes it had actual gameplay purposes, in which you could pick someone up, throw them towards a more favourable location, and then getting into a higher place. I think getting rid of player collision in its entirety was a mistake.

  2. Being unable to jump down a platform was extremely detracting at first, but luckily I got used to it. Still, even though some levels were designed with this inability in mind, I still would've preferred being able to jump down.

I'd give it a solid 8.5 or even 9. A return to form for 2D Mario, but there are still clear improvements to be made for a potential sequel.
 

ResurrectedContrarian

Suffers with mild autism
No player collision, e.g not being able to interact with the players any more. On the surface this is a good thing, because now you can't get in each others way physically, but that was kind of the charm sometimes, wasn't it? Picking someone up unexpectedly and then throwing them off into the abyss. Aside from that, sometimes it had actual gameplay purposes, in which you could pick someone up, throw them towards a more favourable location, and then getting into a higher place. I think getting rid of player collision in its entirety was a mistake.
Yeah we spent ages trying the craziest multplayer tricks in the NSMB games

....and they encouraged it in their in-game videos like this one:


It's a huge disappointment to do away with that. I'd put NSMB series above this for multiplayer... and Super Mario 3D World is also lightyears ahead of it in every way.
 

cireza

Member
And that simply didn't happen. I kind of understand, it's sort of the nature of modern gaming. Secrets have to have content in them and be for progression; we can't just have weird stuff for weird stuff's sake these days. Coins aren't important, lives aren't important, so a secret that leads to a bunch of coins is just no fun. So we NEED to put a 10 star coin there to make the secret worth it. Except then, it's not really a surprise, is it? If you reach the midpoint flag with only one coin, you know you missed a pipe or a hidden branch somewhere. And since people want to 100% the game, you can't make them too obscure. You want to see the whole game, so warp whistles aren't a prize. And programming new powerups and character models for it with 7 different characters is just too much for a super rare powerup. Not cost effective. So we just can't have any surprises...
No Super Secret Area anymore. Or the secret while flying under the exit. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I would love to see, but will never happen again.
 
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