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The United States could become bankrupt within our lifetimes

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-13906274

Is the US in denial over its $14tn debt?

This is a story of debt, delusion and - potentially - disaster. For America and, if you happen to think that American influence is broadly a good thing, for the world.

The debt and the delusion are both all-American: $14 trillion (£8.75tn) of debt has been amassed and there is no cogent plan to reduce it.

The figure is impossible to comprehend: easier to focus on the fact that it grows at $40,000 (£25,000) a second. Getting out of Afghanistan will help but actually only at the margins. The problem is much bigger than any one area of expenditure.

The economist Jeffrey Sachs, director of Columbia University's Earth Institute, is no rabid fiscal conservative but on the debt he is a hawk:

"I'm worried. The debt is large. It should be brought under control. The longer we wait, the longer we suffer this kind of paralysis; the more America boxes itself into a corner and the more America's constructive leadership in the world diminishes."

The author and economist Diane Coyle agrees. And she makes the rather alarming point that the acknowledged deficit is not the whole story.

The current $14tn debt is bad enough, she argues, but the future commitments to the baby boomers, commitments for health care and for pensions, suggest that the debt burden is part of the fabric of society:

"You have promises implicit in the structure of welfare states and aging populations that mean there is an unacknowledged debt that will have to be paid for by future taxpayers, and that could double the published figures."

Richard Haass of the Council on Foreign Relations acknowledges that this structural commitment to future debt is not unique to the United States. All advanced democracies have more or less the same problem, he says, "but in the case of the States the figures are absolutely enormous".

Mr Haass, a former senior US diplomat, is leading an academic push for America's debt to be taken seriously by Americans and noticed as well by the rest of the world.

He uses the analogy of Suez and the pressure that was put on the UK by the US to withdraw from that adventure. The pressure was not, of course, military. It was economic.
Angry opponents of the health care reform during a town hall meeting Many so-called "Tea Party" supporters fiercely oppose tax raises.

Britain needed US economic help. In the future, if China chooses to flex its muscles abroad, it may not be Chinese admirals who pose the real threat, Mr Haass tells us. "Chinese bankers could do the job."

Because of course Chinese bankers, if they withdrew their support for the US economy and their willingness to finance America's spending, could have an almost overnight impact on every American life, forcing interest rates to sky high levels and torpedoing the world's largest economy.

For some light reading about the US National Debt, I'll refer anyone who cares to read it to the easy-to-understand Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

The big graph I want everyone to see is this one:
CBO_-_Public_Debt_Scenarios_-_June_2011.png


This graph is fun. You can see the "best case scenario" projection as the black line. This line shows what would happen if the Bush Tax Cuts were all allowed to expire, the war in Afghanistan ended today, the Alternative Minimum Tax were extended as proposed, and most importantly, tax revenues magically increase from the historical 18% to an improbably 23%, which can only happen if taxes get raised a lot. The odds of which are roughly, AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NO.

The "actual likely scenario" is the blue dotted line, which will happen if the Bush Tax Cuts continue in perpetuity, the war in Afghanistan continues, the AMT is not extended, and taxes fail to be raised. As you can see, the US is on a course which is entirely unsustainable. Other industrialized countries have economists which tell them that after you've increased the annual public debt to the point where it is 100% of GDP, in other words, the amount of money the country owes the world is now equal to the most common estimate of the total economic output of that country that same year, you cross a line between fiscally okay and fiscally REALLY NOT OKAY.

As of 2010, the US public debt as a percentage of GDP is 96.3%. For the record, Greece's public debt as a percentage of GDP is currently approaching 120% of GDP. The country with the world's highest debt-to-GDP ratio in the world is Japan, with a staggering 225% debt-to-GDP ratio. Yes, that Japan, the one which has been in nearly-continuous economic recession for nearly two decades now.

Here's another fun graph:
GAO_Slide.png


This one is fun because it considers the fact that the US, like most first-world nations, is facing an aging population and a great deal of mandatory government spending because there aren't as many young people being born as there are old people retiring. The US has several government programs that it spends heavily on, these are Medicare/Medicaid (health care) and Social Security. Because of the large number of people getting old, spending is growing at an entirely unsustainable rate. Unless Congress votes to dramatically curb health care spending, or privatize Social Security, this spending is regarded as mandatory.

As you can see, from current projections, assuming things continue as they have been going, between the years 2030-2040, the amount of mandatory spending will exceed government revenues (read: collected taxes). At this point, the US government could spend NOTHING except on health care and Social Security, and still be running a perpetual deficit.

Now, you might wonder who is busy quietly buying up US Government Bonds while the US Government is busy spending itself into a financial black hole:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Currently the #1 holder of US Government debt is the People's Republic of China. Now, this has been going on for a long time, China only recently surpassed the UK as the largest holder of US debt, but they are continuing to dramatically increase their holdings of US debt even as the value of the US dollar sinks and sinks. Now, you might wonder why China is so busily hard at work becoming America's biggest creditor nation. It's actually a lot simpler than one would think, and it's the entire basis of the peaceful rise doctrine. China doesn't need to develop a massive (and costly) military force like the US has, all it needs to do is ensure that it has an economic lever to force other countries to do what it wants. If China were to suddenly become disinterested in buying up US Government debt, or better yet, start dumping its holdings on the open market, it would immediately cause economic instability in the US. In a sense, what China is doing is exporting finished goods to the US and trading those goods for US debt, and has been for decades now. The underlying principle of this exchange is as simple today as it has been for generations: if you owe someone money, they can make you do what they want.

Now the question you will all ask, if you even made it this far, is how much debt is too much? In other words, when will the US National Debt achieve a critical level, resulting in economic collapse, bankruptcy, and a worldwide Great Depression (except in China)? The answer is: nobody knows, because it's different for every country on Earth. Isn't that super? What actually happens is at some point, some external event occurs which casts doubt on a nation's government's ability to pay back the debt, plus interest, that is implicitly promised when somebody buy a nation's government's bonds. In the case of the current Greek Tragedy, at some point somebody in the EU poked their head up and wondered what was really going on in Greece. People started digging around, and of course what they found was pretty strong evidence the Greeks could not ever pay back what they owed, thus nearly overnight triggering the current crisis when everyone started downgrading the value of Greek government bonds to junk status.

This, then, is the basis of the Second Dark Age. If at some point someone pokes their head up and asks if the US Government can pay back it's rapidly increasing debts, and the answer changes from Yes to No, then the collapse of the American economy, and then from that the collapse of the world economy, and a Second Dark Age becomes suddenly probable. Nobody knows if and when this will be, but the Bush and Obama administrations were and are both running the debt up without any regards to the potential long-term economic consequences for the United States. Nobody pre-supposes that the US alone of all countries on Earth can run up debt forever and everyone will just accept it as a fact of life. The amount of debt the US now owes is reaching a point where major organizations which rate US Government Bonds are stating that they will have to consider reducing it's rating (currently "AAA", the highest possible) if the US can't get spending under control. Reducing the rating of debt is what started the chain reaction that led to the Greek Tragedy. It is also what triggered the subprime mortgage lending collapse a few years which required the highly publicized bailout of many US banks and the failure of several others.

Side-story:

Currently, there is a political game being played where the Republicans do not want to allow the "debt ceiling" to be raised. The laws on the books require Congress to approve any increases to the amount of public debt the United States can carry. It is usually routine for Congress to vote to increase this debt, however under the political pressure of the Tea Party, the Republicans are demanding spending cuts to bring the debt under control. In general, it's not a smart idea to play games with the debt ceiling because if it is not raised, the US Federal Government will suddenly be unable to meet immediate financial obligations, resulting in a technical default. A default of any kind, for anybody not paying attention to the current Greek Tragedy, would be tantamount to economic suicide for the US, since the whole reason the US is able to finance deficit spending is because foreign countries (mainly China, Japan, and the UK) constantly purchase enormous quantities of US Government Bonds (i.e. debt). If US debt suddenly became questionable in stability, in other words if anybody started doubting the US Government could not pay back the bonds it is issuing, plus interest, the whole house of cards comes crashing down. The result is collapse of the global economy, since all other nations' economies across the surface of the Earth are tied in and interdependent with the US economy. That being said, someone needs to smack President Obama across the face and ask him what the fuck he thinks he's been doing running up the debt the way he has been the past few years.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
i don't think smacking obama across the face would work:
-worst case you'd get literally annihilated by the secret service
-best case it seems like you would just make him literally defensive and definitely not in the mood to listen to your arguments
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
They are/were on the same path as WW2. We all know what happened in the 50s-90s.

Not stating that the same will happen but it's a decent example to state that you just never know what can happen when it concerns debt and the erasure of a defecit.
 

Chris R

Member
Trojita said:
Cut defense spending. Raise taxes.
But that won't ever happen. Hell, might as well suggest grinding old folk into food... wait a second, can soylent green be used for fuel???
 

Valhalla

Banned
Dont care. Just a long for the ride. In some ways i just want stuff to collapse, its not like were progressing towards anything worth while...As a civilization.... Lets spice things up a bit and have the US collapse, make things interesting again.
 

Jenga

Banned
Valhalla said:
Dont care. Just a long for the ride. In some ways i just want stuff to collapse, its not like were progressing towards anything worth while...As a civilization.... Lets spice things up a bit and have the US collapse, make things interesting again.
let's go crazy and rape and pillage in the streets

make things interesting
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
ok, so, what the hell are we gonna do about it? the politicians have their heads so far up their asses and we're going into an election year. its not being fixed until obama has a second term. if he doesnt, then it wont be fixed until the other guy gets his second term.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
That being said, someone needs to smack President Obama across the face and ask him what the fuck he thinks he's been doing running up the debt the way he has been the past few years.
You're obviously referring to extending the Bush tax cuts, right?
 
Just let the Bush Tax Cuts expire and you will be fine, i.e. stop electing Republicans.

That being said, someone needs to smack President Obama across the face and ask him what the fuck he thinks he's been doing running up the debt the way he has been the past few years.

Umm...No, just No. Read up on reasons for current deficit.
 

Zibrahim

Member
This report is a tad hyperbolic. But fiscal reforms can only change the trillions of dollars owed by so much. It's incredibly mind-numbing studying economics and knowing that something could be done to reduce the debt America owes. But instead social issues are the critical subjects in politics and hinder economic progress.
 
Even if we raise taxes and cut back on programs and departments across the board will we still be able to stop what appears to be coming, or are we just delaying the inevitable? Will we even allow cuts to occur across the entire spectrum of our government or are we too divided that the politicians who will be making the decisions won't allow cuts to happen based on ideologies?
 


you had a good run America. Let us use this thread to reminisce about the really awesome shit that's come out of the USA. I'll start.

-The internet as we know it
-Pixar
-Law and Order(Tv series)
-Barack Obama
-Teddy Roosevelt
 
Jerk said:
Is not the presence of things like SS/Medicaid on that clock sort of misleading?
As long as it's not included in the total debt I don't think it's misleading. Displaying assets and liabilities will give you a greater picture about net worth and future projections.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
Currently the #1 holder of US Government debt is the People's Republic of China.


FALSE


The #1 holder is the American people. China is the largest foreign holder, but it only owns 32% of the US debt.
 
CF_Fighter said:
Even if we raise taxes and cut back on programs and departments across the board will we still be able to stop what appears to be coming, or are we just delaying the inevitable? Have we dug ourselves in too far to be able to climb back out before everything falls apart? Will we even allow cuts to occur across the entire spectrum of our government or are we too divided that the politicians who will be making the decisions won't allow cuts to happen based on ideologies?

Read up people...Deficit reduction is NOT really as hard to do. The problem to me is that while Democrats have agreed to more than 2 trillion dollars in spending cuts, Republicans haven't entertained with 1$ in increased tax revenue.

But, here is CBO for us, http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...s-does-nothing-the-deficit-will-disappear.php

CBOextendedalternative1.jpg


Top graph is if we just let the Bush Tax Cuts expire in 2012. Just a fucking no brainer right there.

Currently the #1 holder of US Government debt is the People's Republic of China.

No, another scare tactic LIE.

This is why US is in trouble, people get shit sacred of the deficit talk but don't understand everything. Then they elect Republicans who have never done anything in the last 25 years to control the deficit.
 

numble

Member
Marius_ said:
Call a draft, use nukes, if the US goes down so does everybody else
I guess nukes could work. Assuming China's second-strike capabilities fail however, nobody's going to lend to the US again. But the US can just threaten them with nukes if they don't "lend," so that could work too.
 

beat

Member
Unknown Soldier said:
Here's another fun graph:
GAO_Slide.png


This one is fun because it considers the fact that the US, like most first-world nations, is facing an aging population and a great deal of mandatory government spending because there aren't as many young people being born as there are old people retiring. The US has several government programs that it spends heavily on, these are Medicare/Medicaid (health care) and Social Security. Because of the large number of people getting old, spending is growing at an entirely unsustainable rate. Unless Congress votes to dramatically curb health care spending, or privatize Social Security, this spending is regarded as mandatory.
As this graph shows (much like other graphs), the growth in SS is almost flat over the next few decades; the vast majority of the growth in entitlement spending comes from Medicare and Medicaid...
 
The deficit disappears if Congress does nothing: ie let the Bush tax cuts expire and watch the health care law go into effect. Throw in some military cuts and we'll be set.

Too bad we have a feckless president and insane house of representatives, so none of that will happen.
 

RiccochetJ

Gold Member
numble said:
I guess nukes could work. Assuming China's second-strike capabilities fail however, nobody's going to lend to the US again. But the US can just threaten them with nukes if they don't "lend," so that could work too.
Hardcore bully tactic! I like it! It's a lot less subtle than hinting about the buying power the US had 5 - 10 years ago.

NEOPARADIGM said:
Money needs to go.
It will go where it can make the most money.
 
hteng said:
so US is China's bitch now?

edit: can't the general public donate to help the government?

Sure they can, if they didn't hate the government for pissing away the money they already take from them. The problem is how money is being spent. If you donate it, it will just get wasted.
 

Kabouter

Member
MrHicks said:
on the daily show it showed that the debt per capita/person for the US is worse then greece
The average American is also quite a bit richer than the average Greek.

Wazzim said:
I just hope they don't take us with them.
The US is the largest economy in the world by quite a bit, if they go down, everyone goes down. Same if the EU (which if taken as a whole is an even larger economy than the US) were to collapse over debts.
 

kevm3

Member
Valhalla said:
Dont care. Just a long for the ride. In some ways i just want stuff to collapse, its not like were progressing towards anything worth while...As a civilization.... Lets spice things up a bit and have the US collapse, make things interesting again.

Watch "Vice Guide to Liberia" for an example of why this isn't a great idea.
 
PhoenixDark said:
The deficit disappears if Congress does nothing: ie let the Bush tax cuts expire and watch the health care law go into effect. Throw in some military cuts and we'll be set.

Too bad we have a feckless president and insane house of representatives, so none of that will happen.

And a bunch of people that elect Republicans to solve their problems...
 
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