-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Tim Cain (co-creator of Fallout) described the problem with modern game development
- Thread starter Last Hearth
- Start date
UniformDeliverance
Member
You should watch the video, he does at one point actually show the code. He claims he wrote it out on a whiteboard, and repeatedly asked why it would take 4 weeks to perform the task and was never provided with an answer.
We obviously are only hearing one perspective here, but you should probably watch the video before drawing conclusions about him.
Last edited:
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Need to watch the video.
Last edited:
Werewolf Jones
Gold Member
Dude looks stupid good for his age.
Drizzlehell
Banned
This so much. The amount of partnering software companies that I have to work with these days who have no clue what the hell are they doing is pretty mind blowing. You can literally throw complete documentation at them and they'll still struggle to make heads or tails of what they are supposed to be doing.
Kenneth Haight
Gold Member
CVE Website
www.cve.org
OffSec’s Exploit Database Archive
The Exploit Database - Exploits, Shellcode, 0days, Remote Exploits, Local Exploits, Web Apps, Vulnerability Reports, Security Articles, Tutorials and more.
No lies detected
Last edited:
Mr.Phoenix
Member
My thoughts exactly.
I feel this can go either way. If he legit felt he could do it in 45 minutes, hell let's call that an exaggeration and say he can do it in 3 days vs the 4 weeks the programmer quoted plus their attitude?
I would make a point of doing it myself and for all the programmers to see. let them all see that what their colleague said would take 4 weeks, I finished it in 3 days. Then I would fire him. And then I would tell the rest of them if they felt they couldn't meet these deadlines or match my output...they were free to leave.
The worst thing you want in any workspace or project are pretenders or incompetent people. It ends up doing way more harm than good down the road.
indigo-cyclops
Member
People should watch the video before commenting.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Not in this case. They couldn’t even figure out how to do vlookup tables, so the initial batch of reports that everyone saw were borked and everyone was like “WTF is this garbage?”. I was asked to step in and take over. Smooth sailing since and takes me literally 5 minutes per week.They probably can do it, but they just tried to pass the work to someone else... and they did it.
Most people try to avoid responsibilities and try their hardest in pushing work on to others.
Wildebeest
Member
When someone asks you how long a programming task should take, you should never go low just to earn some sort of "ninja coder" reputation. Planning for things getting unexpectedly complicated and hitting deadlines is good. But if you are saying something will take like 10x as long as it should, that is just dishonest.
Last edited:
MrTroubleMaker
Member
Both times seem off. One way to short and the other way to long.
Not to derail, but the original purpose of the vaults was so much better then the nonsense that was put in the game
Not to derail, but the original purpose of the vaults was so much better then the nonsense that was put in the game
Last edited:
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Brilliant video, thanks for sharing.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
It's called the competency crisis... and it's going to ruin the West.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Yes this isn't exclusive to the games industry. But obviously its fascinating to see how impacting game development.
cinnamonandgravy
Member
there's an old saying: "what one programmer can do in one month, two programmers can do in two months."
programming is a discipline where there's a million paths up the mountain (i.e., tons of ways to solve a single problem).
multiple programmers often can waste time discussing paths, claiming they know a path when they dont, not providing others maps of the paths they've treaded, deciding to take other paths on a whim without telling anyone, eating all the rations (resources) and getting the team stuck halfway up the path, etc etc etc
Hugare
Member
That AI story, oh boy
I've worked with so, so many bosses that said some problem could be solved in 1h when in reality he didnt know shit about what he was saying and it would actualy take weeks.
Every problem becomes easy when you are not making the sausage, just looking at it from the outside.
So I would take his word with a grain of salt
Not only that, but he was the game's director. If he can solve the problem in 45 minutes, fuck the programmer, solve the damn problem in 45 minutes by yourself then.
I've worked with so, so many bosses that said some problem could be solved in 1h when in reality he didnt know shit about what he was saying and it would actualy take weeks.
Every problem becomes easy when you are not making the sausage, just looking at it from the outside.
So I would take his word with a grain of salt
Not only that, but he was the game's director. If he can solve the problem in 45 minutes, fuck the programmer, solve the damn problem in 45 minutes by yourself then.
Last edited:
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Not necessarily. You also have those that want more than what their skill set offers.You get what you pay for
Also, it's easy to underestimate things and blame "juniors".
RavageX
Member
You see this in a lot of places really. People who supposedly have degrees and don't know what the hell they are doing.
There is always something said for real experience vs a piece of paper sometimes.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Fixed. Not talking just about game development either.
this story (piece of code about AI behavior) means nothing without proper context on both sides. If I think of a feature, I can also think about many ways to implement it, maybe his was a simple implementation and the other dev had a more complex one.
That's why you should plan and have the team pitch in and discuss the work instead of just telling someone to do it.
That's why you should plan and have the team pitch in and discuss the work instead of just telling someone to do it.
GHG
Member
From my experience this has been the most common one.
Different programmers going off on entirely different paths despite me having told them all what path they should be on and why it's important that they stick to that one. Infuriating.
{insert code here}
Member
During undergrad it was always far easier and more efficient to just write the code myself than stop and explain my process to people who weren't putting in the time. Very rarely was I teamed up with someone who knew what they were doing.
Raonak
Banned
You guys have gotta stop blaming "diversity" for everything.
Dev teams are diverse because the developer workforce is diverse. It's a worldwide profession.
These are companies trying to make money. they're gonna hire the based on the best combination of technical skills and social skills.
If you're getting declined for jobs, it's not because of your race or gender or whatever. It's because you aren't as good as you think you are.
And if you're one of those redpill edgelords that "find it difficult to work alongside ethnic or trans people" then there's no surprise you don't get hired.
Why would anyone want to hire you? It doesn't matter how good of a programmer you think you are if you can't work with all sorts of other people.
Dev teams are diverse because the developer workforce is diverse. It's a worldwide profession.
These are companies trying to make money. they're gonna hire the based on the best combination of technical skills and social skills.
If you're getting declined for jobs, it's not because of your race or gender or whatever. It's because you aren't as good as you think you are.
And if you're one of those redpill edgelords that "find it difficult to work alongside ethnic or trans people" then there's no surprise you don't get hired.
Why would anyone want to hire you? It doesn't matter how good of a programmer you think you are if you can't work with all sorts of other people.
Last edited:
StereoVsn
Member
Yep, plus now days things are a lot more formal. You have code reviews, security reviews and scans, testing that may include UAT and Staging, and then change approval procedures.You get what you pay for
Also, it's easy to underestimate things and blame "juniors".
So say a senior Dev could do the job in a day or two (45 min thing is usually BS, heard enough of that in many projects). Junior to Mid level Dev would do that job in a week or maybe a bit more. Then add another week or two of reviews, testing and change requests.
There you go, now 1-2 day job takes 2-4 weeks. Shit isn’t simple anymore once you have proper structure and oversight.
StereoVsn
Member
And it’s not exclusive to the West. I work with plenty devs out of Southeast Asia and ton of them don’t know shit just as much as devs in the West. Of course you have folks that are really good too, but so do you in the West.
It’s not a West issue. A ton of people got into Dev and IT who just don’t know what the f they are doing. But companies need bodies so even if someone is meh, companies can still charge for them, managers buff up their teams, etc…
MaestroMike
Gold Member
I’m pretty sure people with connections get hired and they’re usually chilling to make sure the project takes as long as possible to complete so they continue getting paid at least I think that’s how they do it with some tech government work especially with international workers on a visa wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how it goes with video games ppl got to pay off their mortgages their incentive to do work quickly is pretty low unless it’s a proven franchise that you know is gonna sell millions like Nintendo developers don’t have to worry about being canned after a game releases cuz they know it’ll sell millions
GetInTheRobot
Banned
AAA games take longer to make but the tools allow for some superb indie and AA games to be made as well...the industry is in a great place.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I was thinking maybe that too. There's so much tech jobs in demand since the dot com boom happened in 1999, maybe the way the labour pool and jobs available are such a way companies need to hire nitwits to do something.
I'll also take a guess that a lot of these tech jobs, there isn't a thorough interview process where you get grilled for 3-4 rounds testing your skills, personality, and how good you are just being a normal person talking to the interviewers.
So if you got great coding skills, but they dont screen for good attitudes then companies kind of brought that amongst themselves. Because in every job filled the company should want someone with good attitudes too who arent combative or outright assholes. If that's the case there's no point of even interviewing. Just hand in a resume an the best resume wins.
For all you tech industry workers, does HR or interviewers care about that? I know in my industry they do and we arent tech. I do finance and the interview process is one part proving I can do analysis and one part conversation and personality. Might not sound right since at the end of the day I stare at a screen doing spreadsheets, but the companies still want people who are collaborative and look like they'll fit in.
In government it is exactly the case for filling bodies. My friend even said so. I'd ask him why some departments are so slow or mess up. His example was the Canadian federal government had issues paying people because their oddball payroll system kept fucking up. I told him why doesn't the gov just go with a big company like ADP who handles all this shit, and why cant the gov fix it despite endless people?
His answer was simple: When you got to hire a giant number of people, they cant be all good. So for the companies we work at, the company can cherry pick the best people knowing they just need to fill an office of a couple hundred people spread out across departments. The gov might have to hire 2000 or 20000. There's no way all of them are good, but a body has to be there to do something.
Last edited:
KungFucius
King Snowflake
What the hell are you smoking? The whole world is not some agenda driven conspiracy led by people you hate.
One of the projects I work on is modeling systems. I can do what one person on our teams takes a month to do poorly in a few hours. These people do exist but everyone is shocked by it. It is a rare case of utter incompetence. I highly doubt that this one whiner is representative of the industry. I also assume that what Tim is talking about is in relation to his experience coding very simple games compared to what we have today. Without knowing the details, I would expect that altering the game's AI significantly would actually impact a lot of systems and while the coding change might be relatively straight forward, integrating that into the games systems would require a lot of tuning.
I am going to put this out there. I think the real problem is these old leaders have no fucking clue how much more complex the games are today and how difficult it is to make them fun and engaging to gamers that have been gaming for decades. They are still designing things like it is 2002 and think they are gods when really there design ideas suck. Tod Howard led a pile of shit that is really just a fresh layer of diarrhea on top of decades of the hardened turds that is the old Morrowind / Oblivion system. To actually make Starfield good, Bethesda would need to bring in someone who is not an arrogant prick who did something good 20 years ago when games could be rolled out in a year or 18 months. These assholes have way too much influence and no concept of what innovation or leadership is.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Never saw that video, but it's so true.
A lot of people now just want to coast. And if someone calls them out on it, their response will be something like "Dont oppress me" or "why are you acting like a company man?"
Some of this isn't even skillset, but effort and being proactive and wanting to succeed. So that's why i said above the part about personality. A coaster doesn't give a shit. But technically, he might be talented. This kind of employee is one where you hope he does a good job and stays in his corner all day because the second he interacts with coworkers or bosses, he's an entitled asshole. Permanent WFH schedule. Yup. Perfect fit.
But other people can clock in, get paid, hope nobody notices what a shit job he's doing and repeat. And hope nobody fires him. That's why when things like layoffs and being fired come up, the people who care the most are fringe workers because they know it might be a tough slog getting a job. If I get fired, who gives a shit. I'll get a pay out and score another job elsewhere. Happened to me already in the 2000s in a downsizing. Got a job so fast I didn't even get to collect one unemployment cheque pay out. As long as someone has a half decent job you'll get severance pay. It's like hitting the lottery if you can get a new job soon. You coudlnt imagine how many laid off coworkers I know loved being laid off, since they'd get $100,000 and just get a new job a few months later. But that person who has a bad track record is panicking how long the severance pay will last.
At my finance job, there are days I do a normal boring day of work. Do some emails, some spreadsheets, zero meetings that day. Fuck, I'll surf the net or post on GAF. Who cares.
But then there are times it's big time busy where I need to be on my game like next year prelim financials. My colleagues and I are in meetings all day for a month straight. One part meticulous work, one part chatting with people, one part fixing other people dumbass mistakes. Wrap it all up and present this shit to execs and pray me and my coworkers didn't make a mistake.
Sounds like a pain in the ass right? Well kind of, but as Steve Jobs said like his Mac days, it's actually the most fun work I do at my job even though it's technically the hardest part of the year and the most important thing for the company's projections.
But for a coaster, that workload would be too much work and meetings.
Last edited:
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I dunno, this sounds a bit of a weird scenario.
45mins versus 4 weeks is such a crazy time differential I literally cannot imagine it being a simple matter of capability. People who aren't very talented at coding also tend to overvalue their own ability, or underestimate the amount of time its going to take.
I'd also say that any studio who hired someone that useless for that role, would surely have made the same catastrophic error in their other hires. And if that's the case, how the fuck would literally anything be getting done anywhere? And even then it would be a failure in management more than anything.
Suggesting that its somehow standard for the studio, let alone the industry as a whole seems implausible to me, to say the least.
Could it have been the person he asked had literally 4 weeks of work pre-scheduled and was just being a dick about someone adding more random work to their task-list? That I can see happening. And in such an instance its hard to say who's in the right, and in the wrong.
45mins versus 4 weeks is such a crazy time differential I literally cannot imagine it being a simple matter of capability. People who aren't very talented at coding also tend to overvalue their own ability, or underestimate the amount of time its going to take.
I'd also say that any studio who hired someone that useless for that role, would surely have made the same catastrophic error in their other hires. And if that's the case, how the fuck would literally anything be getting done anywhere? And even then it would be a failure in management more than anything.
Suggesting that its somehow standard for the studio, let alone the industry as a whole seems implausible to me, to say the least.
Could it have been the person he asked had literally 4 weeks of work pre-scheduled and was just being a dick about someone adding more random work to their task-list? That I can see happening. And in such an instance its hard to say who's in the right, and in the wrong.
Last edited:
ShadyAcshuns
Member
Honestly? It feels like the downfall of the industry. Waiting whole gens, sometimes multiple ones to play the next game in your favorite series just feels awful.
simpatico
Member
I think games are best made when a few people have extreme amounts of creative control. Like 1-5, usually with the lower being better. This was a norm until recently. Everything is melted down by a committee and rendered into pablum. All the visionary types are going indie because for them, the control is not an option. Big studios won't do it, they can't help but control. Investor money is on the line after all, and frankly a lot of corporate people don't have anything meaningful to do all day. (sure, they do have full schedules technically, but they don't truly drive the company).
Tim Cain is a perfect example. He drove the grand evolution of CRPGs. They don't get the credit, but that crew at Black Isle is almost as important for RPGs as iD was for shooters.
Tim Cain is a perfect example. He drove the grand evolution of CRPGs. They don't get the credit, but that crew at Black Isle is almost as important for RPGs as iD was for shooters.
Last edited:
Johnny Concrete
Member
There’s probably more to that story indeed.
It’s not like “ok, who’s sitting on their hands? I need some code..”.
He’s praising Indie devs and scolding the AAA industry. Yet he’s working for the latter and not making games on his own?
ShadyAcshuns
Member
Have you ever seen The Consultant? I think of most game developers when I see that series and think that's probably what's going on at most of them.
Shits_McGiggles
Member
He better be paying you more or giving you a promotion of some kind, otherwise you are just doing the jobs of others without appropriate compensation.
crazepharmacist
Member
Or it’s a lazy programmer who knows he can finish it in under an hour but wants 4 weeks so he can get paid to do nothing. Sounds like a union employee.
crazepharmacist
Member
If the programmer wouldn’t tell his boss his reasoning for needing 4 weeks, what makes you think he would tell you?
Topher
Gold Member
Great video. Funny thing about that developer story is that I've seen that exact same scenario before. Everyone knows people who are slackers. Some developers I've worked with have tried to claim a job will take much longer than it will actually take and they are dependent on the ignorance of the management to get away with it. In this case, the guy running the show ain't ignorant and he called out bullshit when it needed to be.
bender
What time is it?
After his three examples, he gets to the root of what I've felt is the problem with modern game development: budgets. With so much money riding on these AAA productions, one failure can wipe a studio out. That's going to make most everyone play it safe and stifle creativity. There are a lot of reasons to these inflated budgets, but with team sizes so large, it's hard to get singular creative vision to fruition which wasn't the case twenty years ago. There are exceptions of course (Kojima comes to mind), but I'd really like to go back to the time when a million units sold was considered a smashing success.
Last edited:
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Bullshitters everywhere.
Just got to hope someone has the knowledge or intuition to call them out on it. I don’t have tech experience so what do I know if a coder says 4 weeks?
But if I’m setting company targets and a sales guy says the target of $10M I calculated for him is too high due to falling sales trends, I’d just check what’s going on. We’ll according to me your sales trend is fine, you got a new product line launching and supply chain had fully caught up so no more out of stocks. Add all that together and it looks like $10M to me. Prove me wrong or fuck off.
Nice try at getting a negative growth target.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked