EatChildren said:For this generation? Vanquish, and when at its best the Gears series.
Uncharted works, but it's the sum total of parts that makes the experience as attractive and enjoyable as it is, as far as I'm concerned. The investment into well written and likeable characters, an enjoyable plot, sense of adventure and environment progression, and gorgeous graphics and presentation.
But on a purely mechanical level I don't really consider the Uncharted series able to hold a candle to the pure third person shooters. Uncharted 1 in particular is rank with shitty collision detection, weird aiming, and a botched cover system. Uncharted 2 is significantly more polished, but I still don't like the feel of the guns and the hit boxes still lack the tightness and precision of a game like Vanquish. I also don't really like Naughty Dog's enemy encounter and level design.
I don't rate Uncharted as a bad shooter, just not a particularly amazing one. If someone were to ask my recommendation of a pure third person shooter, where the hook of the game is tight, polished and balanced third person shooting, I wouldn't even consider Uncharted. But if they wanted something more, especially something that delivers on story and adventure, I would.
Ra1den said:OK, but Uncharted is more than 3rd person shooter, with the platforming aspects, as you are aware. So why compare it to straight 3rd person shooters? Whatever genre you would call it, it is the top of it.
EatChildren said:Which is why I specified quite clearly that I was referring specifically to the parts that are relatable to that of a third person shooter, and made it equally clear that I was not referring to the total package of Uncharted as defined by its third person shooting.
However, Uncharted is enough of a third person shooter for me to naturally compare the significant portions of the game where you shoot in third person to other games that have you shooting in third person, and thus criticising the game and series in areas where I feel it could be improved.
What other genre would you prefer I compare it to? 'Heavily scripted narrative driven cinematic third person shooters with emphasis on thematic adventuring'? Of course Uncharted is the best at doing what Uncharted does, it's goddamn Uncharted. But like every game it's also a total of parts that individually can and should be analysed and criticised for flaws they may have.
EatChildren said:For this generation? Vanquish, and when at its best the Gears series.
Uncharted works, but it's the sum total of parts that makes the experience as attractive and enjoyable as it is, as far as I'm concerned. The investment into well written and likeable characters, an enjoyable plot, sense of adventure and environment progression, and gorgeous graphics and presentation.
But on a purely mechanical level I don't really consider the Uncharted series able to hold a candle to the pure third person shooters. Uncharted 1 in particular is rank with shitty collision detection, weird aiming, and a botched cover system. Uncharted 2 is significantly more polished, but I still don't like the feel of the guns and the hit boxes still lack the tightness and precision of a game like Vanquish. I also don't really like Naughty Dog's enemy encounter and level design.
I don't rate Uncharted as a bad shooter, just not a particularly amazing one. If someone were to ask my recommendation of a pure third person shooter, where the hook of the game is tight, polished and balanced third person shooting, I wouldn't even consider Uncharted. But if they wanted something more, especially something that delivers on story and adventure, I would.
Metalmurphy said:But as far as actual mechanics goes I don't see what puts Gears, for example, on another level. Infact, I'd put Uncharted above it. The gunplay in Uncharted is fantastic. Weapons actually have feeling, with proper beefy sound effects, adequate recoil for each weapon, they have impact. I don't get this feeling when I play Gears. I also think the cover system mechanics are better in Uncharted. I can easily traverse around a certain area and move from cover to cover alot faster and snappier then I could in Gears.
EatChildren said:Not much that I can say other than I disagree *shrug*. I personally think the aiming, feel of weapons, accuracy, hit detection and cover system of Gears is better than Uncharted.
Ironically I don't really like Gears as a franchise though, and as a whole prefer Uncharted. The whole dudebro meathead thing and fuck ugly art direction kills Gears for me.
*tears*Wario64 said:Wired: 8/10
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/10/uncharted-3-review/
WIRED Gripping story, lovable characters, superlative graphics, thrilling gunfights and platform segments, jaw-dropping setpieces.
TIRED Little room for experimentation during the games biggest moments, predictable tropes
Wario64 said:Wired: 8/10
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/10/uncharted-3-review/
WIRED Gripping story, lovable characters, superlative graphics, thrilling gunfights and platform segments, jaw-dropping setpieces.
TIRED Little room for experimentation during the games biggest moments, predictable tropes
Wario64 said:TIRED Little room for experimentation during the games biggest moments
Wario64 said:Wired: 8/10
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2011/10/uncharted-3-review/
WIRED Gripping story, lovable characters, superlative graphics, thrilling gunfights and platform segments, jaw-dropping setpieces.
TIRED Little room for experimentation during the games biggest moments, predictable tropes
No because they'd be upset about watching cutscenes. How is a game a game when you're just strung along for the ride?Ra1den said:If those same portions were cutscenes instead, would they be happier? There is tons of great gameplay to be had, and in most other games, those same moments would be cutscenes. And ironically, they probably would have scored it higher in that case. A fine example of how idiotic VG reviewers can be.
Gvaz said:No because they'd be upset about watching cutscenes. How is a game a game when you're just strung along for the ride?
That's a really dumb attitude. When I play a game, I'm hoping that I can actually decide what my character does, not just sit there for the ride. Whether it's an in game scripted sequence or a cutscene, I'm bored if I'm not doing anything on my own.Ra1den said:If those same portions were cutscenes instead, would they be happier? There is tons of great gameplay to be had, and in most other games, those same moments would be cutscenes. And ironically, they probably would have scored it higher in that case. A fine example of how idiotic VG reviewers can be.
Ra1den said:So games should not have plots, or if they do, should always have an inconspicuous role, check.
vulva said:That's a really dumb attitude. When I play a game, I'm hoping that I can actually decide what my character does, not just sit there for the ride. Whether it's an in game scripted sequence or a cutscene, I'm bored if I'm not doing anything on my own.
When I played Uncharted 2, I skipped as many cut scenes as it would let me, since I just wanted the gameplay. The scripted events like making me climb a train without any real thought (twice) really grated on me. If that had been a cut scene, I guess I would have been happier that I could skip it but ultimately that won't win marks by clouding it with less interactivity
Last I checked, you can have a plot without just filling it with cut scenes.
vulva said:That's a really dumb attitude. When I play a game, I'm hoping that I can actually decide what my character does, not just sit there for the ride. Whether it's an in game scripted sequence or a cutscene, I'm bored if I'm not doing anything on my own.
When I played Uncharted 2, I skipped as many cut scenes as it would let me, since I just wanted the gameplay. The scripted events like making me climb a train without any real thought (twice) really grated on me. If that had been a cut scene, I guess I would have been happier that I could skip it but ultimately that won't win marks by clouding it with less interactivity
Last I checked, you can have a plot without just filling it with cut scenes.
If you can do something in a cutscene, I want to be able to do it as a playerRa1den said:You can do things in cutscenes or highly scripted gameplay sequences that you cannot do in open ended settings. You are looking only at the drawbacks, and not the benefits.
But Uncharted was never angling for Mario or Tomb Raider's M.O., much less Grand Theft Auto's. It's neither a platform nor a freeform game, where the challenge lies in exacting spatial estimates and edgewise balance, or crafting one of any number of solutions to punitive acrobatic challenges. In terms of this game's action sequences (to say nothing of the freeform gunplay), it wants you to succeed because that's the kind of game it is, which is to say, not a hideously difficult one. If you prefer that sort of game, see Dark Souls, which banishes authorial narrativein which the design team's narrative rules are more mechanically feltentirely.
But authorial narrative isn't intrinsically bad unless you're the sort of gamer who hates authorial narrative, or perhaps views gaming as reaching its apotheosis in something like "pure play," i.e. an infinite melange of seamlessly articulated and integrated choices. If you prefer that, fair enough, but understand that gaming, like observing, reading, or listening in relation to any form of art, isn't an either or proposition.
As the review describes it, the desert scene is nothing more than pushing the analog stick in one direction and waiting for the scripts to occur. That sounds about as interactive as moving and zooming the cutscene camera in a MGS or Team Ico title.Ra1den said:You can do things in cutscenes or highly scripted gameplay sequences that you cannot do in open ended settings. You are looking only at the drawbacks, and not the benefits.
That reminds me of FF13. *cutscene* push stick forward for 2 seconds *another cutscene*Ridley327 said:As the review describes it, the desert scene is nothing more than pushing the analog stick in one direction and waiting for the scripts to occur. That sounds about as interactive as moving and zooming the cutscene camera in a MGS or Team Ico title.
Ridley327 said:As the review describes it, the desert scene is nothing more than pushing the analog stick in one direction and waiting for the scripts to occur. That sounds about as interactive as moving and zooming the cutscene camera in a MGS or Team Ico title.
From the text, it sounds like the reviewer was disappointed in how often the game goes into autopilot, such as that sequence. How is that not worth mentioning alongside the actual game parts?Ra1den said:OK, so think of that as little more than a slightly interactive cutscene. In fact, think of it as an actual cutscene. Now, how much excellent gameplay is there to be had? Plenty. Instead of basing review scores on what could have been, they should be based on what they ARE.
Metalmurphy said:I don't understand this, specially when you specifically mention "on a purely mechanical level". I can see how you can complain about a lack of variety as far as the combat goes, when all you have are humans, and your up against aliens and monsters, then you're pretty limited and you're gonna come up short.
But as far as actual mechanics goes I don't see what puts Gears, for example, on another level. Infact, I'd put Uncharted above it. The gunplay in Uncharted is fantastic. Weapons actually have feeling, with proper beefy sound effects, adequate recoil for each weapon, they have impact. I don't get this feeling when I play Gears. I also think the cover system mechanics are better in Uncharted. I can easily traverse around a certain area and move from cover to cover alot faster and snappier then I could in Gears, going around or over something to punch someone in the face and then immediately go into cover without breaking the pace.
I have no complains about the combat in Uncharted.
Ridley327 said:As the review describes it, the desert scene is nothing more than pushing the analog stick in one direction and waiting for the scripts to occur. That sounds about as interactive as moving and zooming the cutscene camera in a MGS or Team Ico title.
Ridley327 said:As the review describes it, the desert scene is nothing more than pushing the analog stick in one direction and waiting for the scripts to occur. That sounds about as interactive as moving and zooming the cutscene camera in a MGS or Team Ico title.
Ridley327 said:From the text, it sounds like the reviewer was disappointed in how often the game goes into autopilot, such as that sequence. How is that not worth mentioning alongside the actual game parts?
Gvaz said:If you can do something in a cutscene, I want to be able to do it as a player
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutscenePowerToTheMax
I wasn't a big fan of that scene, either.Pranay_ said:#facepalm#
you need to play it to understand how the scene is
Remember when we first arrived in the village in tibet ? The only thing to do at the beginning was following tenzin who took us to the old man.
Did most players feels that they were just moving foward with an analog stick or were they in awe seeing the village and the surrounding
Ridley327 said:I wasn't a big fan of that scene, either.
There's nothing malicious about what the reviewer is saying, though; it's a valid criticism and one that's become more and more prevalent as games try to outdo one another. When does relinquishing control for these kinds of "controlled moments" go too far? It's not a horrible idea in theory, but the practice needs some work.Pranay_ said:Err Then i have nothing to say.
also at the wired review if they want expiramentation of big set pieces
Ridley327 said:When does relinquishing control for these kinds of "controlled moments" go too far? It's not a horrible idea in theory, but the practice needs some work.
So basically you're saying it shouldn't be compared to other games with third person shooting just because it does other things than third person shooting? By that logic, the entire notion of genres goes out the window and you literally can't compare any two games. I can't compare Arkham Asylum with Arkham City, AC has an open world and AA doesn't!Ra1den said:Apologies for not being clear...I am referring to how this discussion came up in the first place, which is that even if games should be reviewed based on how they stack up to other games of the same genre, then Uncharted still ranks at the top.
You mentioned how as a 3rd person shooter it is not at the top, and that the sum of it's parts is the attraction...but why does that matter when discussing whether it is at the top of its genre or not, since it is not a straight 3rd person shooter.
I can say this differently. If Uncharted is given an 8/10 based on how good of a straight 3rd person shooter it is, that is not fair, since that is not all it is.
Fratkabula said:Its the third of the series. And which third of a series, has taken another direction which the first already two haven't?
Not God Of War, Gears, Resistance, Mass Effect, COD, Battlefield, GTA, Oblivion, Halo, Metal Gear, Diablo, Bioshock, Killzone, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Saints Row, Quake, etc.
Naughty Dog, GAF doesn't know what its talking about, as always. Ignore them.
The problem is that the experience gives the illusion of the player having control in these wonderful setpiece moments but in reality it's just an interactive cutscene that is sort of like a quicktime event, but with more buttons. If this was the case then the reviewer thinks he shouldn't have the illusion at all and made it a grand spectacular cutscene instead of a watered down player experience. Honestly, the best parts of the game that I've seen are when the game's environment forces you to adapt and makes you engage with all of the mechanics that the game offers such as platforming, shooting, and manipulating the environment at the player's control. Essentially, he's saying that a lot of the moments take control away from the player or give the illusion of control to the player at the expense of the experience.Ra1den said:In a story and "cinematic action" based series like Uncharted, "too far" is something that is nowhere near being reached. If one of the the main points of the game is to deliver this sort of scripted(and thereby more cinematic) experiecne, why would an abundance of these things be problematic? With the scene in question, it could have only been either a cutscene, or how it is now. Would the cutscene have been better?
If we were dealing with a game with a mediocre story and acting that was primarily gameplay focused (like the overwhelming majority of games), then frequently having such interruptions would be going "too far." This is of course not the case with the UC series.
krameriffic said:So basically you're saying it shouldn't be compared to other games with third person shooting just because it does other things than third person shooting? By that logic, the entire notion of genres goes out the window and you literally can't compare any two games. I can't compare Arkham Asylum with Arkham City, AC has an open world and AA doesn't!
Wait you play the game or are you getting that from a review?kayos90 said:The problem is that the experience gives the illusion of the player having control in these wonderful setpiece moments but in reality it's just an interactive cutscene that is sort of like a quicktime event, but with more buttons. If this was the case then the reviewer thinks he shouldn't have the illusion at all and made it a grand spectacular cutscene instead of a watered down player experience. Honestly, the best parts of the game that I've seen are when the game's environment forces you to adapt and makes you engage with all of the mechanics that the game offers such as platforming, shooting, and manipulating the environment at the player's control. Essentially, he's saying that a lot of the moments take control away from the player or give the illusion of control to the player at the expense of the experience.
I'm getting the impression from the review. I've watched entire gameplay of Uncharted 3 so I can't say it plays that way, but from what I've seen, I can see how the reviewer feels that way.Loudninja said:Wait you play the game or are you getting that from a review?
Fratkabula said:Its the third of the series. And which third of a series, has taken another direction which the first two already haven't?
Not God Of War, Gears, Resistance, Mass Effect, COD, Battlefield, GTA, Oblivion, Halo, Metal Gear, Diablo, Bioshock, Killzone, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Saints Row, Quake, etc.
GAF doesn't know what its talking about, as always.
Ashes1396 said:What are you talking about exactly? Are you just listing games without explanation? Resistance should most definitely not be on the same list. Mass effect 3 isn't even out. Assasins creed 1 and two are very different games.
Bioshock 1 and two feel very different and the third one isn't even out.
kayos90 said:The problem is that the experience gives the illusion of the player having control in these wonderful setpiece moments but in reality it's just an interactive cutscene that is sort of like a quicktime event, but with more buttons. If this was the case then the reviewer thinks he shouldn't have the illusion at all and made it a grand spectacular cutscene instead of a watered down player experience. Honestly, the best parts of the game that I've seen are when the game's environment forces you to adapt and makes you engage with all of the mechanics that the game offers such as platforming, shooting, and manipulating the environment at the player's control. Essentially, he's saying that a lot of the moments take control away from the player or give the illusion of control to the player at the expense of the experience.
Ra1den said:That's not at all what I'm saying. The topic was whether games should be reviewed in regards to pure entertainment value, or whether they should be compared to other games in the same genre only.
Somebody made the statement that even if games should be compared to other games in the same genre only, UC should still be at the top. At that point, somebody claimed that there are games that handle the 3rd person shooting mechanics better than UC, to which I replied that UC is more than just a 3rd person shooter, and that there are no games that do what UC does better than UC.
So I was merely pointing out that even if you don't think UC handles 3rd person shooting better than everyone else, this is actually immaterial, as is is not just a 3rd person shooter. Look for other games that do all of the things UC does, including the platforming, and see if any do the entire package better(I don't know what genre I would call it, which is why I phrase it this way).
I guess I may as well point out that I DON"T think games should only be compared against others in the same genre, but my earlier comments were considering this for the sake of the argument.
Fratkabula said:GAF doesn't know what its talking about, as always.
Ra1den said:OK, but Uncharted is more than 3rd person shooter, with the platforming aspects, as you are aware. So why compare it to straight 3rd person shooters? Whatever genre you would call it, it is the top of it.
Also, I don't see how the level design could be better. Uncharted 2's level designs were absolute brilliance.
Fratkabula said:Its the third of the series. And which third of a series, has taken another direction which the first two already haven't?
Not God Of War, Gears, Resistance, Mass Effect, COD, Battlefield, GTA, Oblivion, Halo, Metal Gear, Diablo, Bioshock, Killzone, Assassin's Creed, Fallout, Saints Row, Quake, etc.
Naughty Dog, GAF doesn't know what its talking about, as always. Ignore them.