He killed a person. Can't let him ride for some shit like that. He'll learn that the next time he decides to raise his hand at someone, he should probably rethink that shit.
Like a normal person would.
Yeah, no shit.
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US Soccer Referee Dies After Punch
- Thread starter s7evn
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He killed a person. Can't let him ride for some shit like that. He'll learn that the next time he decides to raise his hand at someone, he should probably rethink that shit.
Like a normal person would.
Yeah, no shit.
Might want to drink more milk.
Dude Abides
Banned
The fact of the matter is that you didn't have a clue what you are saying, still don't, and instead of thinking about it when someone who knows better explains it to you, decided to double down on derp.
Really unlucky and tragic for the ref. The kid was out of line for punching a ref for a mere yellow card, but it was also unlucky for the kid that this guy died from it. Its an extremely rare situation and I doubt the intent was to cause any sort of severe injury, much less kill him.
spiderman123
Member
The kid will earn some jail time can we atleast agree on that
GoldenEye 007
Member
If life, limb or property are not in danger, there is no legitimate reason to punch someone.
This kid chose to punch someone for no legitimate reason. Therefore they should be required to face the consequences of their actions even if a death or serious injury was not intended.
I think this kid should have to face a lesser form of manslaughter plus a lesser form of assault.
Shit situation all around but a message should be sent that it is not OK to become violent against someone else over something that was not endangering you or another person.
This kid chose to punch someone for no legitimate reason. Therefore they should be required to face the consequences of their actions even if a death or serious injury was not intended.
I think this kid should have to face a lesser form of manslaughter plus a lesser form of assault.
Shit situation all around but a message should be sent that it is not OK to become violent against someone else over something that was not endangering you or another person.
Angry Fork
Member
I don't feel like going through the other pages, you want to know who they are you do it. The other guy I was arguing with was yaboosh with the green avatar who said this:
MY ANALOGY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH POTHOLES, OR GOING TO PRISON FOR ANYTHING. It was only, ONLY about the 'probability' of death occurring from ANY action, and whether or not that should prevent you from committing to that action. Jogging being self-inflicted vs. punching being on another person is irrelevant to the point I was making.
It's like you guys are purposefully missing my point and who/what I was arguing against. Every time I've explained it you ignore further and attribute an opinion/argument to me that I've never said.
Ok that makes sense.
Does it make a difference if it's multiple punches/attacks (looking up other sources the surviving victim said they were even kicked multiple times on the ground) or one punch. Can somebody reasonably believe/know somebody will die from one punch.
So, not going to bother with anything concrete then? I still claim that this falls under manslaughter. Your only rebuttal was a case from a different state. You aren't really holding much water. You are already contradicting yourself anyway since you claim that he should be getting 2-5 years I believe you said but then are arguing that its a murder 2? Doesn't sound like Utah law to me.
Absolutely. The amount of years is whatever to me at this point. He better not walk away from this shit with probation is all I'm saying.
The actual punishments for this sort of thing are all over the map, ranging from simple assault to second degree murder. If he manages to get it down to simple assault, he might not see much time. Utah penalties for Class B (including assault) misdemeanors range from fines to six months in jail.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Yeah, he punched him in the head over a foul, he deserves whatever happens next. You don't fucking punch people in the head unless you mean to fuck them up, and while I know he didn't mean for this to happen he is still responsible. It would be one thing if they got in a fight and he did it to defend himself or something, but this is not really anything of that sort.
And yes, of course he should get some jail time and I echo the sentiment that he should not walk away with only parole.
A reasonable person is not going to assume that a single punch will kill someone. A reasonable person can assume that law will be involved and they may be seeing some assault charges but they would not assume that anyone is going to die.
Edit: And before we start, yes I was and am aware that a single punch can kill. It is just unlikely.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I really don't know.
It's class A if it causes substantial bodily injury, but that's still only up to one year, so some kind of manslaughter charge is probably more appropriate for more flexible sentencing
Dude Abides
Banned
It's up to the jury whether they think someone could reasonably anticipate whether one punch, under all the circumstances, will kill someone. Certainly multiple strikes would strengthen the case.
I've given you enough concrete to build your own little wall. I'm not going to keep pounding my head against it, sorry. Empty Vessel already explained to you the difference between a charge and a sentence and you just blithely ignore his point. At this point I'm quite certain you don't know anything about the law in Utah or anywhere else.
And I'm quite certain you don't know the law in Utah which is really the only thing that is of importance in this thread.
Edit: Oh, good stealth edit. Actually, if you go back and read, I addressed his post but I can say it again if it makes you feel better. The charge still has to do with sentencing because the charges, inherently, have mitigating and aggravating factors built into them. You aren't going to charge and convict someone for murder 2 and then start moving their sentence into murder 1 terriory because of aggravating circumstances. You would just start with a murder 1 charge.
Because its very rare for a single punch to cause that much damage on its own. People might acknowledge that a professional boxer or somebody could kill with a single punch, but not just some 17 year old soccer player.
Yes, I think this could've been an accident. No reason to throw away a second life.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Unfortunately the instant you decide to initiate violence, you should be responsible for the full consequences. Obviously he didn't expect for the ref to die, but he should still have to answer to that and accept what might happen to him legally.
There was no legitimate reason to attack the ref.
From what I've gathered it was a sucker punch which is pretty far from an accident and sucker punches, hell most punches, are intended to knock someone the fuck out. The kid threw his life away, no one else.
I wouldn't really call death a distinct possibility in that case. Hell, we have no way of knowing, but I don't think the kid even had the intent to knock out the ref. I think he was just lashing out.
That assumes there's no plea involved. I looked at about twenty of these cases and the charging is all over the place. We had one in Houston where they pled it down to simple assault and the guy got a year, but in the St. Cloud punching death they're trying a 17 year old for second-degree murder. The Las Vegas punching death was tried as involuntary manslaughter. So who knows.
Dude Abides
Banned
Like I said I'm not going to continue trying to educate the ineducable. You keep on keepin' on, Matlock. Maybe this kid will retain you.
Not what I was arguing.
He punched the ref to... show his angst about the call, why not slap the ref? Kick the ref, he is a soccer player. Come on man... If you're upset to the point you want to punch someone in the face, you're intending to knocking them down at the very least.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
Terrible turn of events for the family of the ref. He was just doing his job and didn't deserve this response from a lunatic player. Justice should be served.
Does it really sound so far fetched that you would punch someone when they piss you off as opposed to slapping or kicking them? The kid is 17 and is/was probably still in his "invincible" life stage aka he is/was stupid. I'm not saying he should be absolved at all but it really isn't a stretch to think that he punched the guy just for the sake of punching because he was mad. I honestly doubt he thought much past "what the fuck ref?" I can't really see his mind processing the punch as something to knock down the guy or even worse to kill him.
GoldenEye 007
Member
You said a 17 year wouldn't expect their punch to cause a death which is probably fair. But I'm just saying that whether or not they expected it, they have to face the law.
Going violent against someone for no reason isn't a normal reaction from a reasonable person. I've been upset at people or in arguments both through organizations or through sport but I never reacted violently. Violence with no legitimate provocation is completely unreasonable.
He will. Had the ref not died, the kid would have faced assault charges. Because the ref died, the kid will face manslaughter charges.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Yeah completely fine with that.
If you strike someone in the head, you have to be prepared with the knowledge that they might die. It's not an "accident."
The head is where the brain is. I know, surprising!
A good poster
Banned
I've been in fights, not brutal, unjust attacks though.
Ignorance isn't an excuse when it comes to breaking the law so "I didn't know I could kill him with a punch" is gonna be one hell of a defense.
Media. Television, movies, games, etc.
Punches are used in the media as low-consequence irritant solutions.
Did I ever say ignorance was an excuse?
How many people get tried for attempted murder when they throw a single punch?
Wafflecakes
Member
My vote goes for 10-25 years.
If the kid killed someone over a yellow card. Imagine what he will do to someone who does something WORTH getting upset over..............
If the kid killed someone over a yellow card. Imagine what he will do to someone who does something WORTH getting upset over..............
Rocket Scientist
Member
So the person you were actually arguing with said he should get an appropriate punishment, very crazy view indeed.
And everything is, I assume, the dungeon? Yes indeed let's assume it is.
So the person who actually had an extreme view, you didn't argue with.
No you're analogy had to do with comparing someone punching someone else in the face in order to hurt them with running around trying to lose some fat.
GhostWriter24
Member
What a sad situation.
speculawyer
Member
That's so sad.
I'm sure she didn't intend to kill him but such things can occur. Don't fucking punch people over what you view as a bad call.
I'm sure she didn't intend to kill him but such things can occur. Don't fucking punch people over what you view as a bad call.
I think Rocket is being a tad unfair but it is still hilarious.
There's some evidence that the punch itself, not a fall, was quite forceful since the referee started vomiting blood soon after and it caused swelling of the brain. That would also allow for aggravated assault and makes a multi-year manslaughter sentence more reasonable. Again, the point of contention has been that the person throwing the punch isn't liable for killing based solely on the fact someone was unlawfully killed.
A single punch that ends up killing the recipient? Shrug, you got me.
Yeah, in so many words this is what you're saying. He is/was too stupid to think that his punch 'for the sake of punching' could kill someone. He should not be exempt from the law because he's ignorant. That's his fault.
It is a reason when drawing the line between murder in any degree, and manslaughter.
Many posters here are arguing that a single punch to the head, while potentially deadly, does not usually carry the intent of murder. The likelihood of someone dying to a single punch is relatively small, so a person who wants to kill someone probably wouldn't resort to punching a person in the head. Especially given the circumstance of the punch in this particular case. Intent matters.
Not a single person who pointed this out is arguing that the kid should not be punished for his crime. It is a crime and everyone has acknowledged it. This kid will face the consequences of his actions, but it should not carry the same weight as more serious charges. All death is not the same.
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