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Vulture: E-mail chain between Tilda Swinton and Margaret Cho on Dr. Strange casting

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Why would you run something throw a search engine when you can ask the person who made a piece of commentary directly? Why is that a bad thing to try to engage people and their ideas directly?
I mean, Cho herself said that she is not familiar with the source material to properly have a fully realized discussion about it. This is not the case of Swinton contacting another Asian-American blog poster or whatnot about their take on the Doctor Stange casting, she directly went out of her way to contact someone she does not know about a controversy that they probably don't even know much about.

It's like going up to some random person of color and asking them what "the PoC experience" is like.
 
So Tilda asks Ms.Cho for a private dialogue about the issue of Asian representation in Holywood.

Ms.Cho accepts and warmly agrees and welcomes discussion.

Ms.Cho later, then betrays Tildas trust, throws a bit of shade and gets herself in the media cycle.

She sounds like a dick. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
 

Wallach

Member
So Tilda asks Ms.Cho for a private dialogue about the issue of Asian representation in Holywood.

Ms.Cho accepts and warmly agrees and welcomes discussion.

Ms.Cho later, then betrays Tildas trust, throws a bit of shade and gets herself in the media cycle.

She sounds like a dick. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

You're not, there's little else to read here. Other than some of the other mental gymnastics going on in this thread.
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Cho comes off as a two-faced individual out of this. She should not have spoken about this exchange publicly or presented it as a "fight" when the exchange was private and even cordial.
 
are you really surprised that all manner of character assassination will be used against the other when facing up against the default?

It's not character assassination, though. No matter what antics she gets up to, I'll always remember her helping the best that she could. Selfless and giving, she was a goddamn saint.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Swinton seems to be totally unaware of the Tibetan problem of the original role. Any Asian actor likely would have been seen as the Tibetan Monk of the comics and goodby China-Money.

Tilda was perfect in the role.

It was the perfect move by Marvel. For monetary purposes they can't go with the Tibetan monk character. So they go with a white woman, and have her played by an acclaimed actress that just about everyone loves.
 
Swinton seems to be totally unaware of the Tibetan problem of the original role. Any Asian actor likely would have been seen as the Tibetan Monk of the comics and goodby China-Money.



It was the perfect move by Marvel. For monetary purposes they can't go with the Tibetan monk character. So they go with a white woman, and have her played by an acclaimed actress that just about everyone loves.

so what you're saying is it was the perfect move for the government of communist China?
 

GeoNeo

I disagree.
You know what's productive calling a woman a cunt....

Diff culture in Australia we love using the word cunt.

She was two faced cunt if it was a male he would be a two faced cunt.

Oh and I'm Asian so thanks to her for throwing away what could have been a good line of contact. She is completely wrong in my books anyone that pulls shit like this is disgraceful and simply fucking selfish. She is completely wrong in my books anyone that pulls shit like this is disgraceful and should never be sought out after for opinions to better understanding between two cultures.

If she took issue with Tilda asking her for advice why not say no thanks I'm not your "house Asian". Oh right because she totally got exposed as being two faced.
 
Diff culture in Australia we love using the word cunt.

She was two faced cunt if it was a male he would be a two faced cunt.

Oh and I'm Asian so thanks to her for throwing away what could have been a good line of contact. She is completely wrong in my books anyone that pulls shit like this is disgraceful and should never be sought out after for opinions to better understanding between two cultures.

sounds like that's actually what she wants.

to not be 'the designated asian friend' that has to field all the questons...
 

GeoNeo

I disagree.
sounds like that's actually what she wants.

to not be 'the designated asian friend' that has to field all the questons...

Why not tell Tilda that in the email? Why not have the backbone to see fuck off if that was truly how she feels...right now I'm having a real hard time not seeing her as not being two faced.

Hell Tilda says in the first email she has every right to tell her to fuck off. yet we can read the words and see what happened.
 
sounds like that's actually what she wants.

to not be 'the designated asian friend' that has to field all the questons...

Except for the fact that she welcomed Tildas initial email about the subject. Even when Tilda said "u can just tell me to buzz off".

This lady is a dick and was happy to get access to someone high profile. To profit off it somehow later via publicised anecdote.

Edit: though I wouldn't refer to Cho as a "cunt" though, lol. It's a bit misogynist
 

guek

Banned
And it's funny because you can be polite in an e-mail and still feel make someone uncomfortable. And you can be polite directly and still be really uncomfortable and express that later.

I mean for all Tilda saying she cares (and I'm sure he does care) she still pulled a trivializing I'm an older woman from Scotland so I'm not really represented much in cinema either. Why the fuck would you say that in context of asian people in film, that doesn't signify that she gets it, it signifies that she thinks it is maybe not that big of deal. She also basically kept making excuses for why she thinks taking the role was ok, so what did Tilda actually learn in the end?

The conversation is polite but polite doesn't mean productive or good.
I'm an Asian American who grew up in the heart of white America. I've been "house Asian"'d more times than I can remember, most often by friends but also frequently by relative strangers. Tilda invoking her heritage is not equating their identities, it's an appeal for common ground. I get that good intentions don't always excuse unacceptable behaviour but in this case, Tilda is admittedly speaking from ignorance and asking for help. Asking for guidance is not always easy for someone to do, especially when it comes to something as touchy as race. So even though I completely get not wanting to be tokenized, there are times when you can recognize it's not intentional and it's a clumsy request for help. And if it really made her uncomfortable, she could have declined. Again, I know requesting she make that decision at all is an imposition, but Tilda realizes that, that's why she's so obviously trying to be polite.

Some times giving the benefit of the doubt is warranted.
 

DOWN

Banned
I think Swinton seemed as respectful as can be as someone admitting they don't have all the knowledge and want insight. But it oddly seemed to run Cho after the fact as being asked to speak for all Asians in private.

I think Cho put this in bad territory by speaking publicly about those feelings instead of speaking to Tilda, who seemed to be looking for genuine insight and mutual support for each other's voices and common ground
 
Except for the fact that she welcomed Tildas initial email about the subject. Even when Tilda said "u can just tell me to buzz off".

This lady is a dick and was happy to get access to someone high profile. To profit off it somehow later via publicised anecdote.

Why not tell Tilda that in the email? Why not have the backbone to see fuck off if that was truly how she feels...right now I'm having a real hard time not seeing her as being two faced.

this way more people can see it. maybe a few will wake up and realize they do it all too often...
 

Prototype

Member
There is no problem here. The character was re-written for the movie, and changed a male character to a female character, the cast is also very diverse.

People have too much time on their hands complaining about such things. Everybody on the Internet has a cause to champion - straight from their keyboard.
 

WinFonda

Member
sounds like that's actually what she wants.

to not be 'the designated asian friend' that has to field all the questons...

If that's how she felt, she certainly could've said that to Tilda privately. Tilda asked if she was being out of place, she even invited Cho to tell her to "fuck off"

And it's not as if Tilda was asking Cho to go out in public and bat for her. She wanted a one on one convo with an actor who was involved with this issue.
 

GeoNeo

I disagree.
Except for the fact that she welcomed Tildas initial email about the subject. Even when Tilda said "u can just tell me to buzz off".

This lady is a dick and was happy to get access to someone high profile. To profit off it somehow later via publicised anecdote.

Exactly Cho really needs to be called out on this BS. Ugh I really can't believe she would pull a stunt like this.
 

Dongs Macabre

aka Daedalos42
I'm an Asian American who grew up in the heart of white America. I've been "house Asian"'d more times than I can remember, most often by friends but also frequently by relative strangers. Tilda invoking her heritage is not equating their identities, it's an appeal for common ground. I get that good intentions don't always excuse unacceptable behaviour but in this case, Tilda is admittedly speaking from ignorance and asking for help. Asking for guidance is not always easy for someone to do, especially when it comes to something as touchy as race. So even though I completely get not wanting to be tokenized, there are times when you can recognize it's not intentional and it's a clumsy request for help. And if it really made her uncomfortable, she could have declined. Again, I know requesting she make that decision at all is an imposition, but Tilda realizes that, that's why she's so obviously trying to be polite.

Some times giving the benefit of the doubt is warranted.
I don't doubt that Swinton had good intentions, but I also don't fault Cho for talking about this. I think this is a discussion that needs to happen.
 
There is no problem here. The character was re-written for the movie, and changed a male character to a female character, the cast is also very diverse.

People have too much time on their hands complaining about such things. Everybody on the Internet has a cause to champion - straight from their keyboard.

and that's why the phrase 'diversity is for white women' is popular.
 

Fantastical

Death Prophet
If the only correspondence was through email, it's pretty fair to say that Cho misrepresented this email.

In the podcast she says that Swinton said "Can you please tell them not to be so mad?"... meaning Asians. This doesn't happen in the exchange.

She also represents the conversation as a fight, and she mentions that she's producing a movie with Steven Yeun. In the podcast she represents this as Swinton just throwing this in at the end for no reason, but she tells Swinton to get involved with producing content for Asian actors.

From Cho:
I'd even suggest getting into producing content that would give Asian American voices a platform? That's really what is being asked for. Asian Americans feel as if we have no place in film and so we want one to be created. Whether that is found in supporting projects that would bring Asians into the foreground or even just discussing what it would take to do such a thing would help.

Tilda responds to this point in the next email talking about her project with Yeun.
It was a shitty thing to do imo. She was two-faced and misrepresented the conversation.

And of course this...
Anyway - hope this helps! We can totally email and we can be private! Best, m

I don't doubt that Swinton had good intentions, but I also don't fault Cho for talking about this. I think this is a discussion that needs to happen.

I certainly don't fault Cho for talking about this... but I do have issues with her never bringing this up with Swinton and then misrepresenting the tone and content of the email. I mean it does sound like Swinton is trying to be respectful and listen... maybe that would have been a good time to say... "So... why did you just email some random Asian lady?" Well, I wouldn't say it like that, but she could have pointed out how weird it was to her.
 
If that's how she felt, she certainly could've said that to Tilda privately. Tilda asked if she was being out of place, she even invited Cho to tell her to "fuck off"

And it's not as if Tilda was asking Cho to go out in public and bat for her. She wanted a one on one convo with an actor who was involved with this issue.

See what? That they're not mind readers? If you don't want to talk to someone about something, just say so.

i don't something something BUT [proceeds anyway]
 

wetwired

Member
Regardless of what Tilda was told of the role I think it's far more likely an asian actor/character was deliberately chosen to avoid pissing off China in regards to Tibet so that the film could potentially be released there.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
If the only correspondence was through email, it's pretty fair to say that Cho misrepresented this email.

In the podcast she says that Swinton said "Can you please tell them not to be so mad?"... meaning Asians. This doesn't happen in the exchange.

She also represents the conversation as a fight, and she mentions that she's producing a movie with Steven Yeun. In the podcast she represents this as Swinton just throwing this in at the end for no reason... she tells Swinton to get involved with producing content for Asian actors.

From Cho:


It was a shitty thing to do imo. She was two-faced and misrepresented the conversation.

And of course this...

The hell was she hoping to achieve with lying about Tilda?
 
Facts:

1. Marvel and Disney unacceptably whitewashed the role to make more money in China.

2. Tilda Swinton unacceptably accepted a whitewashed role.

3. Margaret Cho is a two-faced asshole whose emails speak for themselves.
 

WinFonda

Member
i don't something something BUT [proceeds anyway]
So what do you propose man.

That no one ever reach out to anyone else ever? Let's not have a dialog, let's not try to understand one another?

Instead let's label Tilda a racist because she dared to engage with an Asian actress who cares deeply about the issue?
 

OnPoint

Member
She agreed to a private conversation then put it all out there?

Man. That's not someone I would ever hire.

Also I think Tilda comes off well in the emails regardless.

It's really confusing. I have no idea what Cho was going for here.
 

kyser73

Member
So she can't talk about Asian issues and what it means for her to be an Asian woman within the context of her art without then accepting that that means she know has to be the Asian woman people come to for the "Asian Opinion"

That's a ridiculous burden to put on her.

I am openly trans and my art frequently reflects that but I am not comfortable being the person people automatically seek out for the Trans opinion. Fuck there are like 4 or 5 people that only know me as the person they can talk to about trans issues (and this includes other trans people) like the entire sum of my relationship with them is that "trans person they can talk to", nothing more. I do it because I don't want to be an asshole but it's stressful sometimes and somewhat dehumanizing on a certain level. So to say that being open about your issues as a minority means you have to now be responsible for providing everyone who asks the "Minority point of view" is brutally unfair.

That would be covered in the 'tell me to fuck off' part of the first email sent by TS and in the option of Cho saying 'Thanks for asking, but no thanks.'
 
yep.

i agree with your cause but not your methods.

sounds familiar...

Let's be clear here, you are blatantly drawing comparisons to the fight against systemic racism (by clearly referencing diet racist talking points) over Margaret Cho misrepresenting the content of Tilda Swinton's emails

what an absolutely ridiculous post, lol.
 

Aske

Member
There's really no winning in this situation, but politically, I think this was the smartest move Marvel could have made. It's one thing to recognise the importance of creating roles for marginalised groups and the imbalance towards white actors, the history of whitewashing in cinema, etc; but there has to be some give and take if you're going to keep everyone happy. It's not as simple as saying "fuck white people who are pissed that we keep cutting white characters" when you're trying to push boundaries without sacrificing the good will of non-progressives, who just see racial recasting as charitable tokenism.

I think using this opportunity to give a white actor the role of a traditionally Asian character allows Marvel to say "look, it's not just about hitting a diversity quota; it's about thinking outside the box and finding the best people to interpret these stories for a modern audience without alienating the original fanbase. We're not just cutting out whites - look! Here's Tilda Swinton!" I think that's a very wise, conciliatory approach to the issue - even if in this case it was also largely motivated by anti-Tibet sentiment and Chinese money.

The Scar Jo Ghost in the Shell thing is much more clear cut, and is pretty shameful in 2016. That movie feels like just another cynical attempt to cash in on nostalgia and cult appeal, while mutating the property to pander to the widest possible audience.
 

Bladenic

Member
Seems like Maggie Cho completely forgot what the conversation actually was, since she's straight up lying about what Tilda said in the emails and even forgot what she herself said lmao.
 
There's really no winning in this situation, but politically, I think this was the smartest move Marvel could have made. It's one thing to recognise the importance of creating roles for marginalised groups and the imbalance towards white actors, the history of whitewashing in cinema, etc; but there has to be some give and take if you're going to keep everyone happy. It's not as simple as saying "fuck white people who are pissed that we keep cutting white characters" when you're trying to push boundaries without sacrificing the good will of non-progressives, who just see racial recasting as charitable tokenism.

I think using this opportunity to give a white actor the role of a traditionally Asian character allows Marvel to say "look, it's not just about hitting a diversity quota; it's about thinking outside the box and finding the best people to interpret these stories for a modern audience without alienating the original fanbase. We're not just cutting out whites - look! Here's Tilda Swinton!" I think that's a very wise, conciliatory approach to the issue - even if in this case it was also largely motivated by anti-Tibet sentiment and Chinese money.

The Scar Jo Ghost in the Shell thing is much more clear cut, and is pretty shameful in 2016. That movie feels like just another cynical attempt to cash in on nostalgia and cult appeal, while mutating the property to pander to the widest possible audience.


Well as long as Marvel is only throwing Tibetans under the bus...
 

Aske

Member
Well as long as Marvel is only throwing Tibetans under the bus...

Better to do a total recast than to use a non-Tibetan Asian actor playing what would likely be a non-Tibetan character taking the place of a Tibetan role.

And better for Marvel to make as many people as happy as possible while still making inroads towards greater diversity. Remember that Chinese audiences don't seem to love black people in their American movies either (see Star Wars posters). You have to choose your battles.
 
Better to do a total recast than to use a non-Tibetan Asian actor playing what would likely be a non-Tibetan character taking the place of a Tibetan role.

And better for Marvel to make as many people as happy as possible while still making inroads towards greater diversity. Remember that Chinese audiences don't seem to love black people in their American movies either (see Star Wars posters). You have to choose your battles.

And?
 
Exactly.

People out here trying to act like Swinton was already well acquainted with Cho prior to sending the email. There is even someone in this very thread insinuating that randomly asking Asian American personalities about their opinion and treating them as a monolith for criticisms that you can very well Google yourself is a kosher thing to do. Speechless.

There are a lot of comments like this one in this thread, but I'm gonna quote this one.

Margaret Cho is a prominent and vocal advocate for racial and LGBT-driven social issues and, from the email, seems to be someone that Tilda personally admires. It's not at all weird to consult someone that you respect and feel would have a much more informed perspective on a topic. Actors do this all the time too - reach out to people when researching for a role. There's also nothing suggesting that Margaret was the only person Tilda consulted. She's a very dedicated actor.

If she felt uncomfortable, she could have just told Tilda to fuck off, as she was invited to do from the beginning. Didn't need to publicly throw shade at her for trying to broaden her understanding.
 
Better to do a total recast than to use a non-Tibetan Asian actor playing what would likely be a non-Tibetan character taking the place of a Tibetan role.

And better for Marvel to make as many people as happy as possible while still making inroads towards greater diversity. Remember that Chinese audiences don't seem to love black people in their American movies either (see Star Wars posters). You have to choose your battles.

I still don't understand why it is seemingly impossible to find a Tibetan to play a Tibetan role.
 

Aske

Member

And Marvel isn't shy about including plenty of black actors and creating more black roles in their movies; Chinese audience sensitivities be damned. Rubbing the Tibet issue in China's face - or tacitly supporting China's stance by making The Ancient One Asian but removing the character's Tibetan heritage - was deemed pushing the envelope too far. Like I said, you pick your battles, and I think Marvel/Disney navigated this issue very smartly.
 

Takuan

Member
Asian here, and I have a generally favorable opinion of Cho; I remember enjoying the heck out of her self-authored biography as a young teen.

This was a complete asshole move by her. I don't even understand why Tilda is getting any heat for this, all she did was accept the job (and crushed it, from what I'm reading here).

Still think shes a funny and smart lady, she just comes off as a real dick in this situation.
 
And Marvel isn't shy about including plenty of black actors and creating more black roles in their movies; Chinese audience sensitivities be damned. Rubbing the Tibet issue in China's face - or tacitly supporting China's stance by making The Ancient One Asian but removing the character's Tibetan heritage - was deemed pushing the envelope too far. Like I said, you pick your battles, and I think Marvel/Disney navigated this issue very smartly.


By 'navigated this issue smartly' you mean they created a race hierarchy based on box office revenue.
 
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